GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: nervoustrigger on January 21, 2018, 11:44:17 AM
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A few weeks ago, I received a tin of the new redesigned JSB Monsters, a 25.4gr pellet in .22 cal. First impressions were very favorable so I started a topic and we had a good discussion:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=136347 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=136347)
In that discussion, I realized I had not tried the new H&N Rabbit Magnum II pellets. The originals grouped terribly for me but, hey, so did the original Monsters so maybe they're worth a try. So I ordered a tin the other day and took them for a test drive. A stock photo for reference:
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/PY-P-783_HN-Rabbit-Magnum-II_1502313596.jpg)
A quick visual showed them to be clean, well formed, and no apparent molding defects. Typical H&N quality I've come to expect. Also, they are unlikely to get damaged in shipping due to their shape...the "skirt" is very thick. A sampling of 20 heads showed a range of 5.48mm - 5.53mm which is a pretty typical spread for H&N based on my records...not quite as good as JSB but better than all the other popular brands.
Unfortunately, the 25 yard test revealed there was no need to test further:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5637)
They do make a satisfying sound when they plow into the backstop but it's of little use when they won't group.
Two more rifles fared no better so I called it off. Are you guys having any success with them?
So while I was at it, I had ordered some RWS Super-H-Points for the first time in a long while. A few years ago, they were my go-to for pests and small game, typically doing dimes or nickles at 25 yards in most rifles and out to 35-40 in rifles that really liked them.
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/PY-P-792_RWS-SuperHPoint-22-Cal_1508774332.jpg)
I fondly remember the sound of a Rob Dibble fastball popping the catcher's mitt as they smashed into a gray squirrel. So as I opened the tin to try them, it was with much anticipation of good results. Alas, it was not to be:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5638)
Once I got back inside and measured a few, I realized they are badly undersized. Measuring 40 samples, not a single one was 5.50mm or larger.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5639)
Notice the smallest ones are hovering around the 5.40mm mark. Just awful. This is not at all what I've come to expect from RWS. The proclamation of "Quality Made In Germany" on the packaging seems rather suspect.
I could return them to the vendor but I would rather notify the manufacturer/distributor of the quality problem. Checking UmarexUSA's site, it looks like I'll have to call next week. I see no way to do an online ticket so I can share this chart. I'm not expecting much based on what I've read regarding Umarex's service but we'll see.
Thanks for reading!
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Hey Jason,
Sorry to hear the tests didn't go so well.
I keep hoping and praying that someone will produce a nice air rifle "bullet" for the masses but that hasn't happened yet. I don't have a setup to make my own, so I to wait for someone else to create a miracle bullet for our air guns.
I really like the target you were using, would you mind sharing it with us?
P
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Jason
Great article/info.
I am also interested in your target, very neet way to catalog groups.
Question:
At what speed were you shooting these pellets at, and what is the twist of your bbl?
Thank you,
Don
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I keep hoping and praying that someone will produce a nice air rifle "bullet" for the masses but that hasn't happened yet.
Yeah, they are a rare breed. It doesn't seem to be quite as simple as needing a faster twist rate, given the length of a typical .22LR round fired from a 1:16" twist that is common of airgun barrels. Of course there are a lot of traditional diabolo pellets that don't group well so it may be as much a statistics game as anything. More diabolo pellets to choose from, relatively much fewer cylindricals, so the chances of finding a projectile that works well favors the former.
I really like the target you were using, would you mind sharing it with us?
Sure thing, here you go:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=41692 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=41692)
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Don, the 4 barrels I tried are all in the range of 1:16" to 1:17". The Rabbit Magnums are shorter than a 40gr .22LR (0.318" vs. 0.395") so it's not obvious to me how the inaccuracy can be laid at the feet of twist rate.
I tried them from 620fps (22fpe) to 900fps (45fpe). As Bob pointed out in the thread on the redesigned Monsters, pushing them up into the transonic range would likely cause accuracy to degrade further.
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I got lucky. Found one .22 that shot them (likely were Rabbit I's) well enough to use them up. Why that one rifle shot them well enough to use, I have no clue. Once they were all shot, have no plans of buying more.
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Jason
Thank you.
In the normal standard in the PB arena, when you go up in bullet weight, you have to increase the twist rate,
I learned real quick when shooting the heavy weights in 22 cal, had to go to a 1x9 twist for the 75 gr + weights,
1x12/14 twists were shotgun groups, along with perfect profiles of the bullets, at any range.
Being new to the AR arena, I am still learning the ropes etc.
By any chance do you know of any AR bbl's that have faster twists than 1x16/17 etc?
I would believe that with the proper twist and speeds, that these heavy weights SHOULD shoot accurately,
unless there is a design flaw with the pellet, just my thoughts. ;)
I also noticed that when a post is posted/relayed, there is very little on the speeds or bbl twist etc,
so some facts/info can be obtained.
Tia,
Don
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I tried these in every gun i own and all did the same. Trying to get them in the breach was *(&^. They are just to tight. Tried them in Umarex Gauntlet , Airmax Varmint , Benjamin Maximus , QB79 & 78 all was so tight could not close the breach. The only rifle that it did work in just a little tight was my break barrel. After i contacted H & N there reply was they do not make pellets for china made Air Rifles. I told well put it on the tin or are you afraid to alienating people who cant afford $1,000 PCP rifles. No reply to that.
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Wow, what an ignorant reply! I'm glad nobody told my QB79 that Baracuda Match pellets aren't made for it.
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Ditto about the oversize! I also did some testing with the Rabbits, and they were the worst pellet ever! I couldn't keep them in a 12" x 15" target box at 35 yds. I could see them cutting weeds off to the sides and in front of the target. The comment about H&N and
Chinese rifles sounds like BS.
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The one rifle that did shoot the Rabbits well was a Beeman chief...pretty much a QB barrel and not pushing those heavy guys very fast. So it shouldn't shot them well, the other Chinese made barrels didn't shoot them well (nor did anything else tried).
Problem with twist rate is that most shooters wouldn't know unless they measured the twist themselves. I've tried, but in .177 the error can be pretty high from one attempt to the other.
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Wow, what an ignorant reply! I'm glad nobody told my QB79 that Baracuda Match pellets aren't made for it.
Yea i thought the same just because i bought or buy china air rifle makes me less of a person. It was not the kind reply you think you would get from a company.
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Regarding the hard loading, it was pretty pronounced in my B51...thought I accidentally double loaded as I closed the bolt on the first one. It wasn't as obvious in my QB78 but its leade has been relieved more aggressively.
The head measurements by themselves wouldn't have predicted it but I presume it's because of the larger bearing surface compared to the narrow rim of a typical wasp-waisted pellet, as well as the very thick skirt.
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Thanks a bunch for sharing your targets with us. Much appreciated.
Would you mind telling us what MV you were getting with those heavy pellets from your B-51? Also what is the normal MV you get from that rifle using the JSB 18 grains?
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Looked over notes...tried 9 different .22's, from 12 foot pounds to 50 foot pounds. LW barrel/BSA barrel/ CZ barrel/Crosman barrels/ Chinese barrels (SPA/BAM 51 /QB/ Chief).
Got one that shot them well enough to use them up productively. For whatever reason, it was a moderate power (673fps with these pellets) Chief.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/chief/9862bde4-9bf9-489d-9624-f46ad3f9b38f.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/chief/9862bde4-9bf9-489d-9624-f46ad3f9b38f.jpg.html)
Pretty much convienced me not to buy them again, but at least I got these used up.
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I still have a tin full. What was weird is my break barrel seemed to like them. Even though these are designed for pcp but Still was hard to load them. H&N does make other pellets that shoot great just these was for me a no go.
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Pellgunfun, the B51 is running the JSB 18.1 at 820fps or about 27fpe. It loves those…no problem vaporizing ½” Mardi Gras beads at 43 yards with the forestock on a table but the buttstock shouldered (subject to heartbeat and breathing error). From bags, it’s pretty good at hitting an aspirin when I mind the wind.
The Rabbit Magnum IIs are running 710fps average or about 28fpe. Five shots ranged from 704 to 718. I expect they don't produce more energy because of the much increased bore friction but the velocities are plenty consistent, especially for only 25 yards. By the way, I had just attached a fresh yellow pine backstop so although you can't distinguish possible tumbling from the paper target (plain cheap photocopy paper), I inspected the way they embedded into the wood and they all appeared to be on axis when they entered.
In a couple of recent threads, there has been some discussion about a possible minimum velocity for these heavier, more cylindrical pellets to perform well but I think that notion has been reasonably dispatched both by well-established projectile stability physics as explained by Bob and by results like Ribbonstone's. Also, although my B51 hated the original Monsters, it likes the redesigned ones nearly as well as the 18.1gr so it is possible for this barrel to lob a 25gr pellet with accuracy. It just looks like the odds are stacked against having a barrel that likes the Rabbit Magnum IIs.
The only other thing I can think of that might be interesting to try...they really do chamber hard and I feel two distinct hitches when closing the bolt. Presumably the first is the head and the second is the skirt. So it might be fun to size some down, maybe a trial with just the heads reduced and another with both the heads and skirts reduced. Unfortunately I don't have a proper die nor the tooling to make one. It occurs to me it may be telling to push a couple through to see what they look like when they emerge. I'll do that and report back.
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I have to see if i can put a few in the CNC. The tooling is already designed for steel down pins for cutting dies the hight maybe an issue but still could be done most likely on a Saturday i can give friend gcode and he can run the pass's for me on set of 20. I will have to see if any of the CNC are open if they are setup thats a no go. This is the perks of thermoforming. entire machine shop at your service. lol
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Very nice, sounds like you’re talking about making dies in different sizes? For what it’s worth, if I had to pick a limited number of sizes to try, I would try the heads at 0.216” and the skirts at 0.218” for an arbitrary unchoked barrel.
If it were a specific barrel with known land and groove dimensions, I would want to try the heads at 0.001” larger than the lands at the muzzle (in case it’s choked) and the skirts at 0.001” larger than the grooves of the unchoked portion. In other words, just enough to ensure the head gets a little hug before it leaves and that there’s no blowby around the skirt.
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Very nice, sounds like you’re talking about making dies in different sizes? For what it’s worth, if I had to pick a limited number of sizes to try, I would try the heads at 0.216” and the skirts at 0.218” for an arbitrary unchoked barrel.
If it were a specific barrel with known land and groove dimensions, I would want to try the heads at 0.001” larger than the lands at the muzzle (in case it’s choked) and the skirts at 0.001” larger than the grooves of the unchoked portion. In other words, just enough to ensure the head gets a little hug before it leaves and that there’s no blowby around the skirt.
The guy who makes the dies is going to see if he has time to make a punch for it its not the best way but will work since its lead. The CNC is a no go. I am ok at bending rule but nothing that small he has a die shop that takes care of the stuff we cant do by hand in house. I know sanding by hand is not going to be accurate and time consuming.
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Have to really be invested in making these shoot well, and have a lot of them on hand (as they can become Rabbit III's or discontinued at the whim of the H&N).
I do like a challenge....but at the end of the maze, there should be some cheese.
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Yeah I agree, Robert. The motivation for going to such lengths should be for the fun of it, with no expectation that it will be successful but knowing there will be a satisfying sense of accomplishment if it is.
Depending on what the push test shows, I may just see if I can take a block of aluminum and drill a #3 (0.213”) and then open it up 2 or 3 thousandths without making it too badly out of round. It wouldn’t be durable enough for long term use but I expect it would be sufficient for forming a few dozen pellets for testing.
Anybody want to guess how long it would take to remove 3 thousandths with a flap sander made from a small dowel and some 320 grit wet/dry paper? I won’t wager a number but if I did, I bet the actual time would be that number times four.
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Quest are fun...keep the mind occupied much better than the mind-numbing offerings others pass off as entertainment...but Quest tend to be obsessive/expensive (they'll nickle-n-dime you to death)/ and once achieved, soon abandoned.
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For me it keeps me from doing the honey do list that always seems to grow over the winter, It never has a end.
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Okay, here's a picture of pellets pushed through two different barrels, an unchoked barrel of unknown origin and a choked .22 Lothar Walther. They were very tight in both barrels, needing in excess of 15lbs to start into the rifling and maybe 2lbs to move them down the bore. The no-name barrel clearly has a sharp leade judging by the lead fins trailing off the skirt. The LW looks pretty decent but the force required to get it through still suggests to me it would benefit from being sized down a bit.
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Thats what i measured on the skirt when i gave H&N the same measurements they replied that it imposable to get an accurate measurement with calibers. That my measurements was off.
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Here is the email they sent i did missquote what was said in the email about the china rifles. Just found the email.
As far as i can see the dimensions of are bullets are ok. the rear part is the sealing and has to be larger as the front (=headsize).
It is not possible to get proper measuring results in measuring the rear edge of a "Diabolo"-shaped pellet with a caliper.
Additionally we test all our pellet lots before packing. In this case we use a 40 joules weihrauch HW 100 PCP rifle for test shooting.
Problems could occur when using spring powered rifles because of the short "chamber". That is the reason why we recommend to use these in PCP rifles only.
In your case i'm not sure about the reason in particular (we have no China-made rifles for tests).
My read is that your rifles all have a short and steep chamfer in breech area while these bullets need a flatter chamfering to fit proper.
Sorry but i have no solution at the moment.
With best regards
Peter Schmidt
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impossible to get an accurate measurement without a proper jig
Well, I can see where they are coming from a general perspective…pellet skirts are typically very easy to bend with a caliper or micrometer and they are frequently out of round to begin with. Not so with these, though! These do not bend anything like that so it’s pretty easy to get a reasonably accurate measurement with nothing more than a caliper. And it’s also a very forgiving dimension for typical pellets. Most folks are shocked if you take, say, a tin of really good-grouping JSBs and put down a few groups and then deliberately bend the skirts a bit between your thumb and forefinger and repeat, the difference is scarcely detectable.
But really I think a precise number isn’t necessary to recognize something isn’t quite right. Anyone that’s chambered these in a few different barrels will immediately recognize that it takes an abnormal amount of force to seat them. Playing devil’s advocate, maybe H&N would say that’s completely by design. But at some point I hope they would have the awareness to ask themselves, if the overwhelming majority of people can’t get them to produce any sort of useful groups, shouldn’t we look into it?
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impossible to get an accurate measurement without a proper jig
Well, I can see where they are coming from a general perspective…pellet skirts are typically very easy to bend with a caliper or micrometer and they are frequently out of round to begin with. Not so with these, though! These do not bend anything like that so it’s pretty easy to get a reasonably accurate measurement with nothing more than a caliper. And it’s also a very forgiving dimension for typical pellets. Most folks are shocked if you take, say, a tin of really good-grouping JSBs and put down a few groups and then deliberately bend the skirts a bit between your thumb and forefinger and repeat, the difference is scarcely detectable.
But really I think a precise number isn’t necessary to recognize something isn’t quite right. Anyone that’s chambered these in a few different barrels will immediately recognize that it takes an abnormal amount of force to seat them. Playing devil’s advocate, maybe H&N would say that’s completely by design. But at some point I hope they would have the awareness to ask themselves, if the overwhelming majority of people can’t get them to produce any sort of useful groups, shouldn’t we look into it?
Agree 100%. Like i told them the only rifle i did not have much problem was my break barrel. When i did get it into the QB it blow a pin hole in the transfer port the other pcp was about the same lol. If i would not have tested the other PCPs i would have thought something was wrong with my rifle. They could just fix the problem or just state it on the product. I know all pellets are not made equal but heck never had a pellet this hard to chamber.
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I did a review a few years ago.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=96587.msg902712#msg902712 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=96587.msg902712#msg902712)
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I seen them years before never ordered any high end pellets was not really big into pcp's until the real ammo stock and prices started going out the door then i turned to my air rifles to keep sharp while saving money.
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Thanks Deckard, I wasn’t thinking they had been around that long. Well, seeing as how they were hard loading for you in Sept 2015, that pretty reasonably answers the question of whether they could be changed and improved, assuming H&N has researched it some time in the interim.
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Thanks Deckard, I wasn’t thinking they had been around that long. Well, seeing as how they were hard loading for you in Sept 2015, that pretty reasonably answers the question of whether they could be changed and improved, assuming H&N has researched it some time in the interim.
No worries!
Yeah, I had high expectations for them and the JSB Monsters . . . not so much.
But, reading through your thread, and the fact the JSBs have a few new heavy offerings and the redesigned Monster, I might have to break down and give those a go.
Meanwhile, I should find something to plink with the Monsters and Rabbits I have on hand.
Maybe some NUAH. :o
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Thanks for saving me the ten bucks. ... Take that one off the list to try.