GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: nervoustrigger on December 11, 2017, 06:50:43 PM
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Hey guys, I wanted to report my first impressions on the redesigned .22 cal JSB Monsters. I just got a tin from Pyramyd Air and was anxious to see how they fare.
Firstly, a quick background note. I tried a tin of the orignal design back in 2012 and soon realized I would not need to buy another. They didn't group in any of my rifles then, and they never grouped in any rifle I've had in the intervening 5 years. Not one.
So I began with a test group from the B51 using the originals:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5556)
Yep, those are the Monsters I've come to know and loathe.
And then a group with the redesigned Monsters:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5555)
Now that's what I'm talking about ;D A sub-MoA group right out of the gate.
So if you're looking for a heavy hitting .22 pellet to buck the wind, it might be time to give these another try. I'm glad I did.
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Now that's a diffrence.
Nice shooting.
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That is very exciting Jason. The improvement in those groups in remarkable. I am definatly going to try to get some ASAP. I went to Chairgun to see if they had a BC listed for the new monsters. Maybe I am crazy but after updating the pellet database, I only see 3 JSB styles in .22. The new and old monsters are nowhere, I am an H&N guy so I guessed I never noticed. Are there more .22 JSB's in chairgun that I am missing ? ?
Thanks for any input on chairgun.
Gendoc, he mentions using the BAM B51 I believe.
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what rifle were you using and by chance......did you get any chrony numbers ?
thats very promising for sure !!
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I love those pellets ! I use them in my .25 Marauder & the 15.89's in my D34 .22. Both very accurate. I just shot my Marauder today after 2 months and put 8 of the 33.95 pellets in a 3/8" group @ 17 yds. They are always right on.
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Wow! I need to try those. I tried the older ones in my Taipan Veteran yesterday and that gun shoots the 16/18gr JSBs dime size at 50yds. 10 shots and 3 hit the 18"x18" box at 50yds....yeah there in the trash >:( but these have promise
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Don, the pellets in this thread are the new .22 cal 25 gr. JSB Monsters.... not the .25 cal 34 gr. King Heavies.... although they do admittedly look quite similar....
I never had any success with the old 25.4 gr. Monsters in any of my .22s except one.... My B-51 loved them at 50 FPE.... this at 50 yards....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/BAM%20B-51/B-51%2050%20yards_zps9wrwi1iv.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/BAM%20B-51/B-51%2050%20yards_zps9wrwi1iv.jpg.html)
I sold that gun, though, so I don't care if the new ones are any worse in that (which would be unlikely).... and I look forward to trying them in some of the .22 PCPs that I still have.... once they are available in Canada....
Bob
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Mitchell, apparently they are not in Chairgun. The pellet database has all sorts of omissions and inconsistencies that make no sense to me, like the JSB Jumbo Heavies, one of the most popular pellets being listed as 18.0gr. The predictions usually work out really close nonetheless but it just seems weird.
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Based on their SD, which is almost as high as the 34 gr. King Heavy.... I would bet their BC will be very close to 0.050....
Bob
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WOW! thanks for the comparison Jason. I will certainly give the redesigns a try in my .22 Synrod. I never did try the old ones due to so many bad reviews on them. It will be interesting to see how these do from a MMHF barrel.
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As Bob pointed out, not the same as .25, but very similar. Ordered a tin with the New Rainstorm II to try out along with a regular order of .25 JSB's.
Sadly, my little .22 pcp hasn't the oomph to push the monsters out there. :(
Knife
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I have a few rifles that like the original design. Maybe I should try the new design as well
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what rifle were you using and by chance......did you get any chrony numbers ?
John, I didn't set up the chronograph but the B51 is tuned to a pretty modest 27fpe with JSB 18.1gr so we're probably looking at about 30fpe / 730fps for the heavier Monsters. I had tried the original Monsters everywhere from 20-45fpe (600fps - 900fps) to no avail so the new ones are definitely encouraging.
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My 40fpe Hatsan Galation .22 loves these JSB Redesigned .22 pellets
My Will Piatt tuned .22 Sumatra Carbine loves these pellets. I have those shooting around 890-900fps so not sure FPE I have not figured the FPE out yet. But these are AWESOME in these guns! Too heavy for any other of my other .22 guns.
Best of Luck Fellas
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My at44 loves them.... one hole at 44yds.... but ran out and tuned for baracudas....just got another tin to play with.....
Heereee coyote coyote coyote.....
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Don, the pellets in this thread are the new .22 cal 25 gr. JSB Monsters.... not the .25 cal 34 gr. King Heavies.... although they do admittedly look quite similar....
I never had any success with the old 25.4 gr. Monsters in any of my .22s except one.... My B-51 loved them at 50 FPE.... this at 50 yards....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/BAM%20B-51/B-51%2050%20yards_zps9wrwi1iv.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/BAM%20B-51/B-51%2050%20yards_zps9wrwi1iv.jpg.html)
I sold that gun, though, so I don't care if the new ones are any worse in that (which would be unlikely).... and I look forward to trying them in some of the .22 PCPs that I still have.... once they are available in Canada....
You're right , I misread the post. Well, I still like JSB pellets. Thanks.
Bob
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REDESIGNED Monsters have to shoot 100 yd sub MOA at 950+ FPS .
Unfortunately my .22 Noblesse is not able to shoot them so fast .
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Are you saying the redesigned Monsters must have a very high muzzle velocity to remain stable at 100yds? If so, please explain and/or cite your source.
I'm asking because people had often speculated that was the reason the original Monsters had such a poor reputation was because there aren't many rifles that can run them at a sufficiently high velocity. I didn't have anything that would push them to 950fps, all I can say is that I didn’t see any substantial improvement within the range of 600 - 900fps so I am skeptical that they suddenly would become outstanding with 50 more fps.
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https://youtu.be/WD5VUxZLW7c (https://youtu.be/WD5VUxZLW7c)
Only Gregor Kamnsek presents serious rifle distance shooting.
http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/huben-k1-2/page/21/ (http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/huben-k1-2/page/21/)
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Thanks but that deals with a specific rifle, and a rather unusual one at that, the Huben K1. I was hoping you could point to something that applies very generally that the Monsters need high velocities to be stable, whether the originals or the new design.
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There is no to much info about REDESIGNED Monsters yet.
But in according my experiences and common Internet info I can tell that heavier/longer pellets/bullets need higher speed.
( Lead free pellets up to 35 yd at 600 FPS and Monsters and Beast up to 100 yd at 950+ FPS. )
You are the best man which can confirm or disconfirm it also for REDESIGNED Monsters.
I am also pretty sure that using extra heavy/long pellets is necessary only for longer 70+ distances.
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Hey guys, I wanted to report my first impressions on the redesigned .22 cal JSB Monsters. I just got a tin from Pyramyd Air and was anxious to see how they fare.
Firstly, a quick background note. I tried a tin of the orignal design back in 2012 and soon realized I would not need to buy another. They didn't group in any of my rifles then, and they never grouped in any rifle I've had in the intervening 5 years. Not one.
So I began with a test group from the B51 using the originals:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5556)
Yep, those are the Monsters I've come to know and loathe.
And then a group with the redesigned Monsters:
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5555)
Now that's what I'm talking about ;D A sub-MoA group right out of the gate.
So if you're looking for a heavy hitting .22 pellet to buck the wind, it might be time to give these another try. I'm glad I did.
I had similar results. The redesigned are what I now shoot exclusively from my Nova. Ive shot to 73yd now and they hold up as they did at 50yd. Ive been shooting between 850 and 900, finding little difference shooting them at the higher end of the spectrum vs lower, but to only 50yd for that assessment. Maybe someone else remembers, but I recently posted some BC and I think this was one of them. I will check my notes when I can. Im loving these.
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I do not believe that any pellet is likely to be better at higher velocities.... It makes no sense from everything I have read about Subsonic Ballistics.... either in terms of Gyroscopic Stability, or Dynamic Stability.... In fact both tend to decrease as you get closer to Mach 1.... here is a typical stability curve for a .22LR bullet.... This chart is particularly interesting, because it is in an 18" twist, not the usual 16" twist for a .22LR barrel....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/Tumble.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Ballistics/Tumble.jpg.html)
The "ideal" stability is about 1.5, like the bullet is when Supersonic.... Anything at 1.0 or below is unstable.... Note that just as the bullet drops through the speed of sound it goes unstable and will tumble.... THAT is why the .22LR uses a 16" twist, not an 18".... For airgun use, we seldom care about what happens below Mach 1, in fact usually we stay below 1000 fps.... Look at the shape of the stability curve there.... As the velocity drops, the stability INCREASES.... We are talking Gyroscopic Stability here - the resistance of the bullet to tumbling.... Airgun pellets follow the same trend, but because of their drag-stabilized (skirted) shape, they can get away with MUCH lower twist rates....
Pellets have another problem to deal with, Dynamic Stability, which causes the pellet to wobble, like a Gyroscope does.... This is called Precession and Nutation.... Since the forward velocity of the pellet decays more rapidly than the RPM, as the pellet travels downrange it acts like it was shot at a lower velocity with a faster twist rate.... This combination decreases the Dynamic Stablity, and can make the pellet corkscrew or spiral.... A pellet that shoots perfectly out to 50 yards may be useless at 100 yards for this reason.... and yet if you slow the muzzle velocity down a bit, it is fine.... I have never heard of a pellet that is sprialling get better with increased velocity....
IMO, when somebody sees an improvement in accuracy at a higher velocity, it is almost always due to improved barrel harmonics of THAT pellet in THAT barrel.... and has nothing to do with pellet stability....
Bob
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Pellets have another problem to deal with, Dynamic Stability, which causes the pellet to wobble, like a Gyroscope does.... This is called Precession and Nutation.... Since the forward velocity of the pellet decays more rapidly than the RPM, as the pellet travels downrange it acts like it was shot at a lower velocity with a faster twist rate.... This combination decreases the Dynamic Stablity, and can make the pellet corkscrew or spiral.... A pellet that shoots perfectly out to 50 yards may be useless at 100 yards for this reason.... and yet if you slow the muzzle velocity down a bit, it is fine.... I have never heard of a pellet that is sprialling get better with increased velocity....
IMO, when somebody sees an improvement in accuracy at a higher velocity, it is almost always due to improved barrel harmonics of THAT pellet in THAT barrel.... and has nothing to do with pellet stability....
Bob
This is precisely why I also investigate lower velocities prior to discounting a projectile. Furthermore, I have also found this situation to be occasionally parabolic in terms of accuracy and velocity in some of the less commonly known to shoot well, eg accuracy issues NOT related to corkscrew/spiralling.
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Just put in an order today for the new redesigned Jumbo Monsters .22s. Can't wait to try them in my Synrod. I have been limited to 18.13gr ever since I installed the MMHF barrel. Will be interesting to see if I can use these for more FPE at 50 yards plus.
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Thanks for sharing this info Jason! I have tin of the redesigned JSBs but have not tested them yet. I'm guessing that my Royale will be shooting them at about 750 fps.
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I've got a tin of the old design .22 Monsters and they shoot really well out of my Sumatra, just as good as the Eun Jin's if not better, but if the new design works better, that's fine with me.....
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At what speed Kevin?
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I do not believe that any pellet is likely to be better at higher velocities.... It makes no sense from everything I have read about Subsonic Ballistics.... either in terms of Gyroscopic Stability, or Dynamic Stability.... In fact both tend to decrease as you get closer to Mach 1.... here is a typical stability curve for a .22LR bullet.... This chart is particularly interesting, because it is in an 18" twist, not the usual 16" twist for a .22LR barrel....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/Tumble.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Ballistics/Tumble.jpg.html)
The "ideal" stability is about 1.5, like the bullet is when Supersonic.... Anything at 1.0 or below is unstable.... Note that just as the bullet drops through the speed of sound it goes unstable and will tumble.... THAT is why the .22LR uses a 16" twist, not an 18".... For airgun use, we seldom care about what happens below Mach 1, in fact usually we stay below 1000 fps.... Look at the shape of the stability curve there.... As the velocity drops, the stability INCREASES.... We are talking Gyroscopic Stability here - the resistance of the bullet to tumbling.... Airgun pellets follow the same trend, but because of their drag-stabilized (skirted) shape, they can get away with MUCH lower twist rates....
Pellets have another problem to deal with, Dynamic Stability, which causes the pellet to wobble, like a Gyroscope does.... This is called Precession and Nutation.... Since the forward velocity of the pellet decays more rapidly than the RPM, as the pellet travels downrange it acts like it was shot at a lower velocity with a faster twist rate.... This combination decreases the Dynamic Stablity, and can make the pellet corkscrew or spiral.... A pellet that shoots perfectly out to 50 yards may be useless at 100 yards for this reason.... and yet if you slow the muzzle velocity down a bit, it is fine.... I have never heard of a pellet that is sprialling get better with increased velocity....
IMO, when somebody sees an improvement in accuracy at a higher velocity, it is almost always due to improved barrel harmonics of THAT pellet in THAT barrel.... and has nothing to do with pellet stability....
Bob
Bob,
Thanks for your very understanding recapitulation/summarization as always .
YES probably my LW 605mm barrels like higher velocity 960 FPS for JSB 18gr because better harmonics.
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Jason,
I have had exactly the same experience with the old style vs. the redesigned style... in at least 4 of my .22 cal rifles.
They include the M11, the 42FPE Franken-22XX, the 30 FPE QB (that you built for me), and the custom bottled XS60c.
The results are unanimous.
The new Redesigned version absolutely blows away the old version.
I was at Mac-1 yesterday and was telling Tim about them. He was unaware of them until we spoke about them. I told him to stock up on them big time, because when word gets out on much better they shoot, he wont be able to keep them on the shelf ! LOL.
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Here is the accuracy comparison between Jumbo Heavy - 12 shot and Jumbo Monster REDSIGNED - 17 shot .
I used the same power and same LW 605x16mm barrel.
As I mentioned before the Monsters probably need higher velocity to be as accurate as Heavy
Yes - we need extra heavy pellets with better BC for longer distances 80+ but I am not sure if we will find out some better than JSB Heavy.
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At what speed Kevin?
I did not use a Chony sorry, I was set to full power and they were going right through the VW BUG target, my best guess is around 1050-1100 fps.
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100 yd/m is only the distance at which I planning to use them but 3 MOA is no too good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOyBF3AWbo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOyBF3AWbo)
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Next video let us know that JSB Jumbo Monster Redesigned are most accurate at 290-295 m/s by using Longer twist 1 : 19,5”
I perhaps that .177 Redesigned Monster will work fine also with standard 1:17,7” twist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd-pGinNAsE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd-pGinNAsE)
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Since you bring up the .177 Monsters, I just wanted to mention I got a tin of them as well. I've only tried them in one rifle so far but the results were disappointing…something like 2" at 43 yards. There aren't many other pellets that group so poorly from this rifle but I'm not ready to write them off just yet based on the favorable .22 results.
So back on the subject of the new .22 Monsters…until trying these, my experiences with heavy .22 pellets had been pretty disappointing. Those include:
1. Eun Jin 28.5gr - Only had one rifle over the years that would group them, but even in that case there were still inexplicable fliers on occasion. Dimensions varied quite a bit and parting lines were pretty bad so it wasn't altogether unexpected.
2. H&N Rabbit Magnum - No luck with these whatsoever. Haven't tried the version 2 yet.
3. original JSB Monster - No luck with these whatsoever.
In the latest Pyramyd Air catalog, I noticed a little 1-page advertisement from JSB that started by saying some good things about the original Monsters but they didn't work well in some rifles so that's why they set about to redesign them. I thought that was some pretty funny marketing speak because the vast majority of what I've seen on the originals has been negative. I think it also said they would be keeping the originals around so that will make a handful of people happy :)
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My Disco loves the old ones, 1 ragged hole at 25 yards. Too bad that's about as far as my Disco can handle them, I have to shoot them 1 mildot high at 25 yards to compensate for the drop. Wifey had me shoot some wasp nests down, had to shoot the pine branches they were on to get them down, they were about 1 inch diameter branches, fun stuff.
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I`m clueless how the H&N Rabbit magnum are not performing in any analysis I have seen on them.. They are very comparable to a bullet type..
However!! Does any of the guys here have done a BC analysis of the new JSB Jumbo Monster???? It would be good to look at the results and see at what fps they like to be at... This is a great topic Jason and thanks for opening it..
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I was just reading about the NEW redesigned monster in the PA flyer than comes with every order. I was initially intrigued for the classic Diabolo shape would provide better accuracy.
My JSB Sampler tin came with the old design .22 cal 25 gr. JSB Monsters and I got mediocre performance.... and I attributed it to the "Trash Can" shape.
Jason, You got me wanting to try a tin of the "REDESIGNED" monsters now in my "heavy Hitters".
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Ordered some pellets a week ago...realzing that the most likely outcome would be the "redesigned" pellets would be come the only JSB's in that weight, I ordered more tins of the original version. "Redesigned" might be as good or better, but have two rifles that like the early version....will worry about the new ones once the old ones are shot up.
Just to mention that airrifles are contrary critters, one of the two PCP's that does like the old version is also a BAM m51 (the other an MrodAir M10 single shot). Really the only two .22 PCP's that are shooting them fast enough to deserve that heavy of a pellet.
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As to the Rabbit MAgs.(I or II): PASS
.22 Rabit Mags (I or II) have been pretty horrible for me. Tested soemthing like 7 or 9 .22 PCP's at various power levels (most are mine..a couple were borrowed) from 12 to 52 foot pounds.
Did find one that did do "ehhh"....but it was good enough to usefully to about 25-30 yards...so use the last of those tins up in that rifle.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/chief/9862bde4-9bf9-489d-9624-f46ad3f9b38f.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/chief/9862bde4-9bf9-489d-9624-f46ad3f9b38f.jpg.html)
Now the "why" that one barrel/rifle shot them well enough to use escapes me....just part of the general "independence" of PCP barrels. It's not the fastest or the slowest (running about 25 foot pounds...which with these pellets, is pretty much just loafing around in speed)....certainly not the most expensive....and certainly not what I expected.
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In what I have seen among the guys I shoot with, (and the various guns we have shot them in)... they DO seem to like speeds higher than most .22 cal guns are capable of pushing a 25+gr. pellet.
My particular M11 pretty much loves them.
As does my higher powered "Franken-gun" (22XX based custom), and my "SUPER Tuned" QB/PCP.
My XS60c shoots them well at shorter distances, but it really does not have enough power to justify putting such a heavy pellet down it's barrel. (It LOVES the JSB 18.13's)
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Ron: Do you know off hand the power setting on you XS60C?
Mine is at "Mid Power" and I can visibly see the 15.83 travel to the target at 30 yrds... exactly where I aimed at.
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Ron: Do you know off hand the power setting on you XS60C?
Mine is at "Mid Power" and I can visibly see the 15.83 travel to the target at 30 yrds... exactly where I aimed at.
To be honest, I do not remember what we tuned ours to. The 2 that we have are not stock rifles by any means. My machinist buddy made a couple of drop blocks for them (similar to a QB bottle conversion). Both of ours are now bottle fed and we only take them up to 1250-1500 psi.
He also did some valve work on them, so again, ours are not a factory stock configuration anymore.
If I go shooting this weekend, Ill try to remember to take it with me and run some strings and grouping.
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Pffft.
Mine is bone stack as delivered from a Mike M. after his tune... so apples to oranges compared to yours.
Thanks anyway!
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I`m clueless how the H&N Rabbit magnum are not performing in any analysis I have seen on them.. They are very comparable to a bullet type..
However!! Does any of the guys here have done a BC analysis of the new JSB Jumbo Monster???? It would be good to look at the results and see at what fps they like to be at... This is a great topic Jason and thanks for opening it..
Inside linked video you may see :
1. BC=0,046
2. best grouping for Monster REDESIGNED is at 960 FPS.
3. Enough long chocked polygonal LW barrel with TR = 1:19,5
4. Groping at 100m sub MOA.
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As to the Rabbit MAgs.(I or II): PASS
.22 Rabit Mags (I or II) have been pretty horrible for me. Tested soemthing like 7 or 9 .22 PCP's at various power levels (most are mine..a couple were borrowed) from 12 to 52 foot pounds.
Did find one that did do "ehhh"....but it was good enough to usefully to about 25-30 yards...so use the last of those tins up in that rifle.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/chief/9862bde4-9bf9-489d-9624-f46ad3f9b38f.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/chief/9862bde4-9bf9-489d-9624-f46ad3f9b38f.jpg.html)
Now the "why" that one barrel/rifle shot them well enough to use escapes me....just part of the general "independence" of PCP barrels. It's not the fastest or the slowest (running about 25 foot pounds...which with these pellets, is pretty much just loafing around in speed)....certainly not the most expensive....and certainly not what I expected.
I would just about that the bbl. is either very lightly choked, or none at all. That, or the rabbits just happen to match the choke. This would be very typical in bullets in ag barrels. ;)
Knife
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If there is a choke (it's a Beeman Chief), it's subtle enough that I can't easily detect it. But in other .22's that I KNOW don't have a choke ('casue I cut them off several inches and recrowned them) they won't shoot....and in rifles with a known choke, they won't shoot.
But I have noticed, when I test a new air rifle with all the pellets on hand, I sometimes (on a guess...about 1:4 times) get a surprise match up, and it shoots some lonely orphan tin of pellets that haven't shoot with a snot in anything tried in the last decade.
That's pretty much the "life" of those "orphan" pellets....just sitting in the locker, year after year, getting tested here and there as new toys come into the house. IF they ever do find their moment of glory, there aren't many of them left in the tin by then (and I'll be darn if I'd order more even if they were still made).
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They measured Ballistic coefficient at 150m by using polygonal barrel at 290m/s . The Value is really unbelievable BC=0,086 . Accuracy was only 2,2 MOA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1EoGDgDXQ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1EoGDgDXQ0)
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Yeah, I find that to be a bit hard to believe.... I can't understand them, but I assume they used the drop at 100M and 150M to calculate the BC, since I didn't see a Chrony.... The possible errors include accurately assessing the center of the group locations used to calculate the drop.... the atmospheric conditions and whether they corrected for them.... and the ballistics model they chose to use (eg. G1, GA, etc.).... To get a BC of 0.086 with an SD of 0.075 requires a Form Factor of less than 1 (actually 0.87).... which is better than most flat based round nosed bullets.... For example .22LR bullets have a form factor of about 1.0 (the BC is pretty much the same as the SD).... Most JSB Exact series pellet have a FF of about 1.5, which means for an SD of 0.075, they should have a BC of about 0.05....
Bob
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My 40fpe Hatsan Galation .22 loves these JSB Redesigned .22 pellets
My Will Piatt tuned .22 Sumatra Carbine loves these pellets. I have those shooting around 890-900fps so not sure FPE I have not figured the FPE out yet. But these are AWESOME in these guns! Too heavy for any other of my other .22 guns.
Best of Luck Fellas
Could u provide a little more data on how your Galatian was or is tuned with the heavier pellet.
Would like to give them a try.
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My 40fpe Hatsan Galation .22 loves these JSB Redesigned .22 pellets
My Will Piatt tuned .22 Sumatra Carbine loves these pellets. I have those shooting around 890-900fps so not sure FPE I have not figured the FPE out yet. But these are AWESOME in these guns! Too heavy for any other of my other .22 guns.
Best of Luck Fellas
Could u provide a little more data on how your Galatian was or is tuned with the heavier pellet.
Would like to give them a try.
I am also intersting for tha same . Is It long barrel Galatian ?
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My 40fpe Hatsan Galation .22 loves these JSB Redesigned .22 pellets
My Will Piatt tuned .22 Sumatra Carbine loves these pellets. I have those shooting around 890-900fps so not sure FPE I have not figured the FPE out yet. But these are AWESOME in these guns! Too heavy for any other of my other .22 guns.
Best of Luck Fellas
Could u provide a little more data on how your Galatian was or is tuned with the heavier pellet.
Would like to give them a try.
I am also intersting for tha same . Is It long barrel Galatian ?
Soon as I get my hands on a tin, I’ll be trying these with Galatian qe.
I’m guesssing it has sufficient power to get them well past 900 FPS.
Just not willing to pay $20 for a tin of 200 from amazon. About the only place I’ve found them.
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what rifle were you using and by chance......did you get any chrony numbers ?
John, I didn't set up the chronograph but the B51 is tuned to a pretty modest 27fpe with JSB 18.1gr so we're probably looking at about 30fpe / 730fps for the heavier Monsters. I had tried the original Monsters everywhere from 20-45fpe (600fps - 900fps) to no avail so the new ones are definitely encouraging.
Good news on the new Monsters. The old ones shot ok in the AT 44 I had but it had the power. My other guns I don't see the sense in shooting 25gr. Unless you can shoot them over 820 fps I would opt for the more accurate flatter shooting JSB 15.9 or 18s.
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Unless you can shoot them over 820 fps I would opt for the more accurate flatter shooting JSB 15.9 or 18s.
Agree with you absolutely
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IMO they have a place in .22 cal PCPs that are over 40 FPE.... and better at 45-55 FPE.... The 18.1 gr. Heavies are such a great pellet, and they shoot lights out for me at 960 fps.... why would I look for heavier and slower in a 37 FPE gun?.... I had one gun that liked the old Monsters, my B-51 tuned to 50 FPE.... other than that they were mediocre accuracy.... I'm hoping the redesigned ones will be better.... Eventually they will show up in Canada and I will find out....
Bob
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Here they are Bob: https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/jsb-match-diabolo-new-jsb-match-diabolo-beast-jumb.html (https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/jsb-match-diabolo-new-jsb-match-diabolo-beast-jumb.html)
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Actually you linked to the 34 gr. Beasts.... but they DO have them now at AirGunSource....
https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/jsb-match-diabolo-redesigned-jsb-monster-22-cal-25.html (https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/jsb-match-diabolo-redesigned-jsb-monster-22-cal-25.html)
They didn't last time I checked, only a couple of week ago.... Guess I need to order !!!
Bob
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Oops my mistake! Glad you found them anyway 😊
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Actually you linked to the 34 gr. Beasts.... but they DO have them now at AirGunSource....
https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/jsb-match-diabolo-redesigned-jsb-monster-22-cal-25.html (https://www.airgunsource.ca/en/jsb-match-diabolo-redesigned-jsb-monster-22-cal-25.html)
They didn't last time I checked, only a couple of week ago.... Guess I need to order !!!
Bob
Bob, What are your results ?
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My guess is his results are measured in inches...of snow ;D
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For what its worth I have a crosman Titan NP in .22 that I could not find a pellet it liked out all the normal favorites most of us shoot, AA/JSB 15.89, 18.13s and so on.
Its only had the piston seal and breech seal replaced with a clean up of the tube and piston, still factory gas ram.
I tried the old style 25gr monsters in it and out to 30 yards it was dropping them into on ragged hole and under an inch at 50 yards. I was shocked since no other .22 I have liked them at all. I chronyed the gun and its shooting them at 525fps with a 9 fps spread. The gun has a better shot cycle with the monsters than it does with lighter pellets so its a win-win.
Go figure.
Mike
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THAT is why the .22LR uses a 16" twist, not an 18"
Bob
Can you explain the 16" vs 18" twist and why 16" is better for .22?
Thanks
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THAT is why the .22LR uses a 16" twist, not an 18"
Bob
Can you explain the 16" vs 18" twist and why 16" is better for .22?
Thanks
It has to do with the fact that most .22lr is 40g...the length necessary to get that weight is what determines what twist rate is needed..it is longer than the normal 30g .22 short which in the old days would be rifled with a 1:20 twist...
Many rifles(such as dads Remmy 512) would be able to send .22 short, .22 long and .22 long rifle... and that is because being over spun is not as bad as being under spun...
under spun and the overturning moment is greater than the gyroscopic stability and so the round tumbles end over end rather quickly after it leaves the barrel
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/how-dobullets-fly-great-online-resource/ (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/how-dobullets-fly-great-online-resource/)
Now the over spun round (say a .22 short in a 1:16 twist Remmy 512) is happy it is plenty stable out of the barrel but as it starts to drop more and more as it gets out to 50-150 yards it is so stable it wants the nose to stay level and not to follow the bullets path... this induces wallowing and then precession and nutation...
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I do not believe that any pellet is likely to be better at higher velocities.... It makes no sense from everything I have read about Subsonic Ballistics.... either in terms of Gyroscopic Stability, or Dynamic Stability.... In fact both tend to decrease as you get closer to Mach 1.... here is a typical stability curve for a .22LR bullet.... This chart is particularly interesting, because it is in an 18" twist, not the usual 16" twist for a .22LR barrel....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/Tumble.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Ballistics/Tumble.jpg.html)
The "ideal" stability is about 1.5, like the bullet is when Supersonic.... Anything at 1.0 or below is unstable.... Note that just as the bullet drops through the speed of sound it goes unstable and will tumble.... THAT is why the .22LR uses a 16" twist, not an 18".... For airgun use, we seldom care about what happens below Mach 1, in fact usually we stay below 1000 fps.... Look at the shape of the stability curve there.... As the velocity drops, the stability INCREASES.... We are talking Gyroscopic Stability here - the resistance of the bullet to tumbling.... Airgun pellets follow the same trend, but because of their drag-stabilized (skirted) shape, they can get away with MUCH lower twist rates....
Pellets have another problem to deal with, Dynamic Stability, which causes the pellet to wobble, like a Gyroscope does.... This is called Precession and Nutation.... Since the forward velocity of the pellet decays more rapidly than the RPM, as the pellet travels downrange it acts like it was shot at a lower velocity with a faster twist rate.... This combination decreases the Dynamic Stablity, and can make the pellet corkscrew or spiral.... A pellet that shoots perfectly out to 50 yards may be useless at 100 yards for this reason.... and yet if you slow the muzzle velocity down a bit, it is fine.... I have never heard of a pellet that is sprialling get better with increased velocity....
IMO, when somebody sees an improvement in accuracy at a higher velocity, it is almost always due to improved barrel harmonics of THAT pellet in THAT barrel.... and has nothing to do with pellet stability....
Bob
From the chart it looks like 1100-1200 range is a no no for pellets or bullets. Yet .22 long rifles sit right in this zone. Do .22 rim fires suffer from poor accuracy from this? Or is the bullet heavy enough to deal with this over a lighter pellet?
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IMO they have a place in .22 cal PCPs that are over 40 FPE.... and better at 45-55 FPE.... The 18.1 gr. Heavies are such a great pellet, and they shoot lights out for me at 960 fps.... why would I look for heavier and slower in a 37 FPE gun?.... I had one gun that liked the old Monsters, my B-51 tuned to 50 FPE.... other than that they were mediocre accuracy.... I'm hoping the redesigned ones will be better.... Eventually they will show up in Canada and I will find out....
Bob
I think part of it is the name. I'm shooting the MONSTERS just sounds more powerful :). I bet many people are shooting these in guns that would be better off with the 18gs but the 18s just don't sound as POWERFULL as "I'm shooting the MONSTERS" !!!!
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IMO they have a place in .22 cal PCPs that are over 40 FPE.... and better at 45-55 FPE.... The 18.1 gr. Heavies are such a great pellet, and they shoot lights out for me at 960 fps.... why would I look for heavier and slower in a 37 FPE gun?.... I had one gun that liked the old Monsters, my B-51 tuned to 50 FPE.... other than that they were mediocre accuracy.... I'm hoping the redesigned ones will be better.... Eventually they will show up in Canada and I will find out....
Bob
I think part of it is the name. I'm shooting the MONSTERS just sounds more powerful :). I bet many people are shooting these in guns that would be better off with the 18gs but the 18s just don't sound as POWERFULL as "I'm shooting the MONSTERS" !!!!
Lol well it all depends. My .22 Mrod is setup shooting 40fpe with the 18s and cranked up I hit 58fpe with the beasts. My shipment of redesigned monsters should be here soon. They just got them in stock today
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I've been wanting to try these for a bit, I have a few tins on order myself, can't wait until they get here.
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Just ordered 8 tins. We’ll see in 3 business days. The Streamline is tuned to shoot JSB 18.13 at 945 fps so hoping for 790 to 800 fps with these babies!
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As to the Rabbit MAgs.(I or II): PASS
.22 Rabit Mags (I or II) have been pretty horrible for me. Tested soemthing like 7 or 9 .22 PCP's at various power levels (most are mine..a couple were borrowed) from 12 to 52 foot pounds.
Did find one that did do "ehhh"....but it was good enough to usefully to about 25-30 yards...so use the last of those tins up in that rifle.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/chief/9862bde4-9bf9-489d-9624-f46ad3f9b38f.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/chief/9862bde4-9bf9-489d-9624-f46ad3f9b38f.jpg.html)
Now the "why" that one barrel/rifle shot them well enough to use escapes me....just part of the general "independence" of PCP barrels. It's not the fastest or the slowest (running about 25 foot pounds...which with these pellets, is pretty much just loafing around in speed)....certainly not the most expensive....and certainly not what I expected.
I would just about that the bbl. is either very lightly choked, or none at all. That, or the rabbits just happen to match the choke. This would be very typical in bullets in ag barrels. ;)
Knife
No idea where I saw it or read it but someone measured the head size, which on these would be most of the pellet, and it was 5.57. IF that is accurate, they might like to be too large of O.D. to shoot in a .22, unless its really loose.
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Perhaps you are referring to the photos and measurements I posted in this thread:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=138297.msg1390410#msg1390410 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=138297.msg1390410#msg1390410)
I don’t think the harsh loading and extreme amount of bore friction is so much the fault of the head size (5.48-5.53mm) as it is the skirts which measured 5.64-5.69mm. They are dimensioned similarly to the skirts of a typical diabolo pellet, except in this case it’s more of a solid than a hollow skirt so it doesn’t want to compress. For example, there’s no way I could seat one with into a springer with finger pressure. I had to use a tool and something on the order of 20lbs of force. Not that I’d ever want to use them in a springer, I just wanted to try it for reference.
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I had my 2260 HPA out today to sight it in for Gopher season, and took a tin of the Original and Redesigned 25.4 gr. Monsters with me to check to see is there is any difference.... This gun is tuned to shoot 960 fps (37 FPE) with the 18.1 gr. JSB Heavies.... It is regulated at 1600 psi and has a 23.8" LW barrel on it.... Here are the targets for the Monsters, the Redesigned ones are on top, Original flavour on the bottom....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Targets/25%20gr%20Monsters_zpsl5kyq7fg.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Targets/25%20gr%20Monsters_zpsl5kyq7fg.jpg.html)
This was at 50 yards, from a wobbly front bag with the butt shouldered.... This gun never liked the old Monsters, and still doesn't.... but the Redesigned ones shoot almost as good as the 18.1 gr. Heavies, although a lot slower, of course, at 798 fps (36 FPE).... I have no idea if they would tighten up if shot faster, and don't intend to retune this gun to try that.... It's deadly with the Heavies, and they carry plenty of smack for the Ground Squirrels.... The Monsters hit about 2" lower at 50 yards than the Heavies....
Anyways, thought I would share my findings so far.... The Redesigned Monsters show promise, IMO....
Bob
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Hi Bob:
I don't know why, but I am not getting your pic. Only the dreaded tiny square in the top left corner.
Opened in a new tab, and Photo B. started loading the pic, then it instantly went to a blank square int the page, again with the tiny square in the top left corner of what should've been a picture. GRRRRR!!!
Knife
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Gonna give these a whirl on Wednesday at the range, got a few tins today. Yeah they do look like the King Heavies, after shooting .25 for a long time .22 pellets look tiny haha.
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Hi Bob:
I don't know why, but I am not getting your pic. Only the dreaded tiny square in the top left corner.
Opened in a new tab, and Photo B. started loading the pic, then it instantly went to a blank square int the page, again with the tiny square in the top left corner of what should've been a picture. GRRRRR!!!
Knife
snagged, cropped, reduced to 7/10 size...
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Interesting . My LW barrel shoot Heavy two times better then Monster . Also another users mentioned that REDESIGNED Monster are not so good for longer distances.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=136516.msg1402043#msg1402043 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=136516.msg1402043#msg1402043)