GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Beeman Airguns => Topic started by: Ultramarine on October 14, 2017, 01:10:39 PM
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After having shot a lot of pellets and three years after I bought it, I thought I belonged to the happy ones that would never have issues with their Beeman P17. Some days ago, I began to shoot worse than usual, I mean sometimes I just couldn't hit the target at 20 yards. Thought I was getting even older... Then it happened : suddenly, close to the end of the cocking process, the pistol relased a big "puff", exposing my palm to a painful pinch. >:(
So I began reading all I could concerning such a problem, on GTA first, of course, but also on others forums or blogs. Then I checked everything, at least I believe so :
1. Piston O'ring. It was not realy useful as I clean and lube it quite regularly, and even changed it once or twice. All's Ok..
2. Trigger system. Disassembled it taking photos (sear, lever, hammer, devilish springs, etc.) , couldn't find anything wrong -everething aligned- except it's not as simple as some experts say...
3. Famous 3 "steel fingers",rods, whatever you call them, including the center one with its small tab at the bottom. They're so hard to pull out (and put back) I can't believe some misalignment could be the origin of any problem.
4. The valve : removed the two o'rings, cleaned everything, changed the o'rings for new ones, lubed gently and put it back. Noticed the spring was not very strong but should it be ?
5. Reassembled everything (phew!), tried to cock : B..µ**£°@#~z t !! >:( Same puff, no change.
So I'm now begging some help from our experts on the forum. :-\
Yves
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Now, may be I should have added something. Thought of it when seeing one more video about P17 "tuning".
While I could formerly move the compressing chamber a few degrees up and down, without resistance, once the piston disconnected from the "cocking lever" (i.e. the upper part of the gun, receiving the sights), now I can't. I mean there's a little resistance against which I have to force, otherwise the chamber compression tube goes back in alignment with the barrel.
Does that mean a thing for anyone?
Yves
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I have gone through three of the p17's and I'm not a heavy pistol shooter. I won't be buying another one
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You might look at it this way;
After three years, you likely got ur money's worth from an inexpensive pistol.
Maybe buy a new one, keep the first for spares. Comparing the two might show where the first went bad. Can't tell you how to fix ur problem, never experienced it.
BP
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Hi Yves, it sounds like the valve is opening near the close of the compression stroke - yikes if there's a pellet in the bore.
If this is the case, then it might be an inadequate trigger link / sear engagement. Open the lever all the way but don't close it. Remove the grip panel and check the engagement (top circle)...
(https://i.imgur.com/BWv9Wtu.jpg)
The above photo is the inside of an HW40 (which has slightly different trigger components) but the two operate the same.
If you don't have adequate engagement... did you modify the trigger to reduce take-up?... or lighten the trigger spring too much? ... or it's possible that the trigger link doesn't move smoothly thru the wire guides - part CS635
(https://i.imgur.com/IhBrQLG.gif)
There may be something else that I'm overlooking... but if your piston o-ring is okay, then the only way out for the compressed air is thru the valve.
Also, when the compression cylinder is raised, it cocks the hammer. As such there will be felt resistance from the hammer spring. To make this a bit smoother, apply some grease where BK137 contacts the hammer... hth
Wyo
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Hi Wyo, thanks for your answer,
As you may see in the attached picture, everything looks OK with the whole trigger mechanism. I didn't modify anything on the trigger, and the trigger spring is strong enough. As for the possibility that the trigger link couldn't move smoothly through the wire guides, I checked this carefully (not easy...) and didn't find anything wrong. I 've always been refering to the HW diagram you posted and, for those who know it, that makes things much easier to understand.
So I'm afraid there must be something wrong with the valve, but I don't feel confident enough in my skills to fully disassemble it. The expert Mr "Derrick" on "Another Airgun blog" did so but mine resisted so much I didn't want to damage it so I didn't insist.
Anyway, thanks again, I'll keep on trying to solve that mystery. We'll see...
Yves
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Yves,
Gary's information is right on and well presented!
The pic You are showing appears that the overhead lever is not fully open (as Gary suggested). The hammer cams (BK137's) are still engaged and the Drop Sear#164 has not reset the Trigger Link or the Hammer. When the hammer and trigger link sear resets (@45deg of opening), you should hear and feel the clicks associated with this trigger reset!
Also, it appears there is no lubrication of any contact points on your P17 (sears, pins, springs, cams, etc.) As per Gary's pic (and mine), possibly this may be all you need to do!
For additional clarity, the attached pics represent a functioning 4-step sequence of my P17 (Uncocked-45 degree cocking reset-170 degree Cylinder Refill-Cocked, Ready-To-Fire).
Hope This Helps!
Ted
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Ted and Gary, that's what I call help !
But it's nightime now in France and I don't want to loose any screw, spring or tiny little ball (there's one as usual in the P17 safety device I recommend you for olympic style jumping) in being dumb enough trying to work under artificial light.
So tomorow, among multiple tasks non retired people consider insignificant, like sawing a tree stump under the ground level with a low powered electric chain saw, I'll try to reproduce Ted's pics, with my P17, at each cocking phase he selected, and I'll let you see and evaluate.
Thanks a million to both of you.
Yves
PS : that pistol IS GONNA WORK AGAIN ! It was too pleasant to shoot it.
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Hi Ted and Gary,
At least I eventually found out what's wrong with my P17. That took me hours but I'd still probably be at bay without your explanations. Yes it's about the trigger, not the valve. Most of the time the drop sear (SR164) isn't pushed forward by one of the steel finger (BK 137) so the trigger isn't set and when I bring the lever back, the compressed air escapes just as I'm about to close the lever/barrel support.
The problem is I can fix this with my finger when all's open but once closed, it won't operate. I tried to put a washer to keep the drop sear in alignment with the steel finger but it failed.
I'll carry on searching a solution...
Yves
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Yves,
I didn't notice before in your pic (post #5) but you are correct, the drop sear (SR164) Has Not been reset by the middle cam finger #136, thus the trigger isn't resetting and latching the hammer!
Adding the washer to keep the drop sear in alignment should have helped, but have two other suggestions to try:
1. In all four of my pics (post #6) you can see I relocated the tail of the drop sear's torsion spring (CS630) from the left grip location, to under the hammers large torsion spring (CS387). This not only applies a more positive 2nd stage "glass break" quality to the trigger activation, but also assist in holding the drop sear in place to maintain alignment with the middle cocking cam #136.
2. Lightly lube all contact points with either a white lithium or a Super Lube synthetic grease.
The close-up pic displays the cocking-reset action of the three steel cam fingers @ 45degrees of over-lever opening (two outside BK137's for hammer lift, one inside BK136 to reset trigger link to drop sear and latch drop sear to hammer).
Hope this all helps!
Ted
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You might look at it this way;
After three years, you likely got ur money's worth from an inexpensive pistol.
Maybe buy a new one, keep the first for spares. Comparing the two might show where the first went bad. Can't tell you how to fix ur problem, never experienced it.
+1....with this pistol shooting the way it does out of the box, for around $30, I would have no problem replacing it yearly. And as Anthony stated, now you got spare parts.
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Ted,
Thanks for that new suggestion, I mean putting the drop sear torsion spring under the hammer spring. I did it but didn't try to cock that pistol yet: lost the safety ball and spring too many times and I'm really getting nervous. I don't measure the time I've spent trying to fix that P17 but it reminds me my last sailing boat, with which I spent more time in maintenance than in sailing. Anyway, if that works, I'll tell you.
Xraycer,
The lowest price you can expect for a Beeman P17 in Europe today, if I'm not wrong, is 79€ + shipping. That's about 94$ + probably 20$ for shipping. An HW40 (Beeman P3) can be found at 176$, shipping not included. For me, this justify my efforts.
Now I still have more than an hour before sunset so I'm going to try to put those ¤µ#*s! of a safety ball & spring back in their appartment and, if I succeed, I'll try to shoot. 8)
To be continued...
Yves
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The lowest price you can expect for a Beeman P17 in Europe today, if I'm not wrong, is 79€ + shipping. That's about 94$ + probably 20$ for shipping. An HW40 (Beeman P3) can be found at 176$, shipping not included. For me, this justify my efforts.
Wow, what a price mark up!
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I feel I'm slowly crossing the line between being determined and stubborn :o :o. Now I can cock and shoot that pistol when the right "side" is opened but when I close it, thing goes back wrong :P. There's an asian Leprechaun in that chinese plastic and steel piece of junk. Or a french one...
I give up. At least for a while. Thanks ya'all.
Yves
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Your determination to fix it is impressive. I hope you get it working again Yves.
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I feel I'm slowly crossing the line between being determined and stubborn :o :o . Now I can cock and shoot that pistol when the right "side" is opened but when I close it, thing goes back wrong :P ....
Yves
Hmmm, when you have the right panel open, do you now see, hear and feel the drop sear latched by the trigger link, ready for a trigger pull? If you do and it appears to shoot fine, are you having difficulty re-installing the right grip? Possibly something is in a bind when you re-secure the grip panel.
HERE's (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-on-beeman-p17-overhaul-part-1.html) a good dis-assembly blog on the P17 that might help to verify all parts were re-installed correctly!?
Understand your frustration Yves...been there...done that! >:(
However, after 3 years of perfect function, has to be something simple (maybe, reduce triggers pre-travel with a 2mm allen wrench)!??
You'll get it right, hopefully soon! ;)
Ted
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[/quote] from Ted
Hmmm, when you have the right panel open, do you now see, hear and feel the drop sear latched by the trigger link, ready for a trigger pull?
Yep
If you do and it appears to shoot fine, are you having difficulty re-installing the right grip? Possibly something is in a bind when you re-secure the grip panel.
Nope
HERE's (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-on-beeman-p17-overhaul-part-1.html) a good dis-assembly blog on the P17 that might help to verify all parts were re-installed correctly!?
I had read that before doing anything. Downloaded everything this gentleman edited on the web.
Understand your frustration Yves...been there...done that! >:(
However, after 3 years of perfect function, has to be something simple (maybe, reduce triggers pre-travel with a 2mm allen wrench)!?? [/quote]
I didn't reduce the trigger pre-travel as I found the trigger let-off smoother and more predictable with a longer travel
A few months ago, I read and extremely modest, precise and interesting report from a french airgun expert on a french airgun forum, concerning the Beeman P17. Usualy I step back from the experts' opinions of my fellow citizens on those forums: they love bragging, argueing, etc. Need to say no more. However there are real experts about airgunning in France and this one had noticed what he considered a real weakness of the Beeman P17, i.e. the progressive misalignment between the middle steel finger quoted B136 and the drop sear (SR 164). He "cured" this in bending the B136 piece carefully but I'm not ready do do that.
So I'm going to give myself some time for ... getting a little calmer, forget this ¨%§/ù!. problem, gently store my P17 for a while (that won't hurt), shoot my Crosman 1377, 2100b, Vantage NP, and my Webley Rebel aka Airstrike blunderbuss a bit more often, and everything will be OK.
Thanks a bunch again,
Yves
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...So I'm going to give myself some time for ... getting a little calmer, forget this ¨%§/ù!. problem, gently store my P17 for a while (that won't hurt), shoot my Crosman 1377, 2100b, Vantage NP, and my Webley Rebel aka Airstrike blunderbuss a bit more often, and everything will be OK...
Good words of wisdom!! 8)
Ted
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Excellent pictures, Ted. I'm sure that a lot of folks can benefit from seeing the action in various stages.
Yves, I finally noticed that the center cocking arm is sliding underneath the sear... If it was fine before but now it's not, something changed. Guessing that it is wear - the plastic pin boss may have some wear and the crisp corners of the two parts may now be rounded. If it only engages without the side panel installed, then the torsion spring is tilting the pin (and the sear) downward... which it wants to do naturally.
You could try to reposition the end of the torsion spring, like Ted did successfully. You can also epoxy this pin (the only one of the three) into the boss and still assemble / disassemble. Or maybe your washer will work - but place it between the sear and the torsion spring. The sear is floating too high. It's unlikely that the cocking arms have moved out of alignment.
But thanks for sticking with it. I've picked up a thing or two.
Wyo
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Stubborn ? A bit obstinate, maybe ? You know it's been raining for hours around here, so... ::)
First I tried a childish solution, consisting in a drop of epoxy glue on the hammer's edge, hoping this would prevent the hammer from sliding aside the center steel finger. But epoxy glue doesn't stick perfectly on a tiny piece of metal, and its surface is anyway quite slippery. First attempt failed...
Then I assumed that, instead of correcting a movable part's alignment -i.e. the hammer, I could try it with the center steel finger (piece n° BK 136 of the HW 40). So I inserted a small piece of those circular seal in a very hard red material, with a square cross-section, used for gas tubing if I'm not wrong, between the left steel finger (BK 137) and the center one (BK136).
You know what ? Till now, it works. Well, I don't know if it will last long but at least I can shoot my P17 again.
Two remarks :
1) I could never put the tiny ball and spring into the safety housing. If you know a proper way...
2) If you're a surgeon, a dentist or a precision whatchmaker, it may help. ;D
Yves
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Oops ! Forgot something important.
Thank you again so much, Ted, for your "4 steps cocking "explanation pictures, and Gary for your illustrated explanations. Without them, although I had read and seen a lot about the P17, I wouldn't have understood exactly how this trigger functions.
And thank you too Jerry, for your encouragements! ;)
Yves
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Stubborn ? A bit obstinate, maybe ? You know it's been raining for hours around here, so... ::)
First I tried a childish solution, consisting in a drop of epoxy glue on the hammer's edge, hoping this would prevent the hammer from sliding aside the center steel finger. But epoxy glue doesn't stick perfectly on a tiny piece of metal, and its surface is anyway quite slippery. First attempt failed...
Then I assumed that, instead of correcting a movable part's alignment -i.e. the hammer, I could try it with the center steel finger (piece n° BK 136 of the HW 40). So I inserted a small piece of those circular seal in a very hard red material, with a square cross-section, used for gas tubing if I'm not wrong, between the left steel finger (BK 137) and the center one (BK136).
You know what ? Till now, it works. Well, I don't know if it will last long but at least I can shoot my P17 again.
Two remarks :
1) I could never put the tiny ball and spring into the safety housing. If you know a proper way...
2) If you're a surgeon, a dentist or a precision whatchmaker, it may help. ;D
Yves
Yves,
You've found a solution...Congrats! I'm not exactly sure what it was, but heck, if it works...Great! ;)
Read where "bending the steel finger cam #BK136" might be only a temporary fix. But anything to maintain perfect alignment of the drop sear to BK136, or the hammer to the dual BK137's is welcomed. Actually with the right grip removed from My P17 #2, I just discovered the hammer slides off the dual BK 137 cams. If I use slight thumb pressure when cocking through the 45deg trigger reset action, then all works perfectly. Didn't notice before as my recent 500+ rounds worked great during normal shooting...still does! Guess sears, cams, hammer tolerances are so close, any wear or slightly-off stamped\machining contact surfaces may eventually cause issues. Sure mine will eventually need some TLC work, but I'm a tinkerer and enjoy fixing my own stuff!
1. For me, I always manually reset rifle\pistol trigger safeties before loading\cocking actions, thus the auto-reset on the P17 works well and I've not worked on it...Yet! Maybe Gary can offer proper safety-ball-spring install actions...
2. I'm neither of the 3 skilled disciplines you mentioned, but at 64, my shop bench has a large, free standing, lighted magnifying glass instrument. Close up and able to see better, still have to focus on detailed hand steadiness!! ::)
Thank you again so much, Ted, for your "4 steps cocking "explanation pictures, and Gary for your illustrated explanations. Without them, although I had read and seen a lot about the P17, I wouldn't have understood exactly how this trigger functions.
You are very welcome Yves! GTA members have helped me to learn and troubleshoot AG issues. If I can share some of that with others, I appreciate that opportunity!! 8)
Ted
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Yves,
You've found a solution...Congrats! I'm not exactly sure what it was, but heck, if it works...Great! ;)
I tried to describe the way I did it in the attached picture. The piece of "gas tube seal" (sorry for my english, may be that doesn't mean a thing, I mean in technical terms) quickly slipped out, so I tried to insert a tiny piece of rubber material, using a small flat screwdriver. Seems to work better. Shot about ten pellets and it didn't move....
Guess sears, cams, hammer tolerances are so close, any wear or slightly-off stamped\machining contact surfaces may eventually cause issues. (...) I'm a tinkerer and enjoy fixing my own stuff!
That's obvious (I mean the influence of close tolerances on those marvelous toys reliability) but I'm not a tinkerer and it's a tough discipline for me. The only thing I enjoy is succeeding in my poor atempts, and not hurting myself! ;D
Yves
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Yves,
You've found a solution...Congrats! I'm not exactly sure what it was, but heck, if it works...Great! ;)
I tried to describe the way I did it in the attached picture. The piece of "gas tube seal" (sorry for my english, may be that doesn't mean a thing, I mean in technical terms) quickly slipped out, so I tried to insert a tiny piece of rubber material, using a small flat screwdriver. Seems to work better. Shot about ten pellets and it didn't move....
Guess sears, cams, hammer tolerances are so close, any wear or slightly-off stamped\machining contact surfaces may eventually cause issues. (...) I'm a tinkerer and enjoy fixing my own stuff!
That's obvious (I mean the influence of close tolerances on those marvelous toys reliability) but I'm not a tinkerer and it's a tough discipline for me. The only thing I enjoy is succeeding in my poor atempts, and not hurting myself! ;D
Yves,
Your English is Excellent and as they say, pics are worth a thousand words...Thanks!! 8)
Your rubber insert solution continues to work, great! I'm not a pro or a gun smith, but if this ends up not a permanent solution, all I can suggest is what "I" would do. Again, remember I enjoy tinkering and these next steps would be slow and tedious and need to be done carefully. :o
Using fine to very fine emery cloth or wet sand paper (600 grit\1500 grit), I'd slowly and carefully true-up\square-up the finger cam contact surfaces (all three) that interface with both the hammer (SR162) and drop sear (SR164). Then I'd do the same with the contact surfaces on the hammer and sear that interface with the finger cams (Caution would be to remove as little steel as possible, just what's needed to get a squared surface). I'd bring these "contact point surfaces" to a mirror-like polished finish, re-install components and check for proper alignment and function. Lube these surfaces for overall smoothness of operation during the cocking action. Fine tuning the surfaces may be needed once you see how they perform, but unfortunately by now, you will be a seasoned pro at disassembly\assembly of the P17!! Another alternative would be to bring it to a Beeman repair center or a qualified gun\pistol smith, but that might be cost prohibitive.
Yves, I appreciate your patience and persistence for as Gary stated, I've also learned some unknown issues\solutions through your determination to make your P17 right again! ;)
Good luck, keep us informed!
Ted
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Excellent pictures from Ted and excellent discussion. I have several P-17's and have done extensive trigger work and polishing on 3 of them. If you compare the first and second of Ted's 4 pictures you will see that the cocking fingers (BK137 I believe) seem to apply quite a bit of forward force on the hammer when cocking is just initiated before the two parts can "cam" over each other and begin to lift the rear of the hammer upwards. I removed some of the radius from the top/front of the cocking fingers and the rear/bottom of the hammer to allow the fingers to more easily lift the hammer and hopefully apply less forward pressure on the rear of the hammer during that initial movement. I made sure that all contacting surfaces of the fingers and hammer were aligned as closely as possible (some slight bending of parts sometimes necessary) and as noted above flattened and polished those surfaces very well. I don't shoot these pistols as much since I got a pp700 but the trigger function on the ones I've worked on is still excellent and all still function quite well. For less than $40 per pistol, heirloom quality can hardly be expected but they can function very well and they are fun to shoot and tinker with.
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Excellent pictures from Ted and excellent discussion...
For less than $40 per pistol, heirloom quality can hardly be expected but they can function very well and they are fun to shoot and tinker with.
Thanks BG! Hopefully, Yves chooses to "keep the fun" going!! 8)
Ted