GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Guns And Related Accessories Review Gates => Air Gun Review Gate => Topic started by: Sky on October 13, 2017, 08:30:04 PM
-
I just got the new pumper hotness. I'll get what I can down, I'm beat from getting it ready.
First off, externally no rust, blemishes and the wood is good for a 200$ rifle.
The barrel is not the .435 sized Crosman barrel. It's .455. The muzzle brake isn't, it's simply a crown protector. So first order of business:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwd492kB9xvgdVJoZGdoQ0ZLUGM/view?usp=drivesdk
Now it's ready to test. First shot string with 14.3:
487
500
503
510
482
494
501
These were all at 4 pumps. It was really hard to pump more. Opening the cocking lever felt like I was trying to break an ever stronger vacuum.
Then this happened:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwd492kB9xvgaUZZTG5rRTJON2s/view?usp=drivesdk
Every pin and screw out and wiping up the oil. There was easily a tablespoon in there. No real surprises. Cleaned up, replaced an oring that was nicked (it came with spares).
Back at 4 pumps it's still hard as heck to get to 5. And speed is now about 480.
Took the pump arm back off, tricky pins to get back in too, and started playing with the Piston adjustment.when I got it the Piston arm was at it's shortest adjustment. I lengthened it and put stuff back together. This process takes time due to the tricky pins.
Still fairly hard to cock past 4, but every shot was 560 +- a couple.
It seems that helped a lot. I'm going to adjust a bit more, but like I said I'm beat, I've been on it all day.
It's also very quiet with the TKO.
Here's a few more beauty shots:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwd492kB9xvgbnNIVWM1bTg0Z0k/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwd492kB9xvgYlVITmlpakg4UmM/view?usp=drivesdk
-
Piston position before:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwd492kB9xvgX3BMUm5URWJuXzA/view?usp=drivesdk
Piston after:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwd492kB9xvgWUh5clBSTjNydXc/view?usp=drivesdk
I think it may need to be a bit longer, it makes contact with the valve face just before the stroke ends.
-
awesome , that's a nice looking pumper, and also very impressive numbers for 4 strokes.. The only thing that dawned on me about the pump exertion is the preload on the check seal in the valve.. If there is a problem there, you are physically fighting that along with prior pump pressure in the valve.. Something worth looking into/.. thanks for posting
-
awesome , that's a nice looking pumper, and also very impressive numbers for 4 strokes.. The only thing that dawned on me about the pump exertion is the preload on the check seal in the valve.. If there is a problem there, you are physically fighting that along with prior pump pressure in the valve.. Something worth looking into/.. thanks for posting
&^^&. That is literally the only thing I didn't remove. Part number 51 "foamy copper" prevented me from popping out the valve easy, I tried dental picks on the other side, but only gently.
-
Thanks for starting your review! Great stuff!
-
Thanks Bob. Just put some moly on all the metal/metal parts and will start pumping again tomorrow. Hopefully it breaks in.
-
Tagging along for future reference.
Thanks for the review!
P.S. I had to play with embedding pictures on Google Drive.
cicked your link to the photo, the "right click" on the image and chose "copy image address" then pasted here inside {img} {/img} brackets.
So it looks like this...
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eOVhIy-FrrRNJrSxMd8sDs1k3DlgQtoCiVnGePSqGgIV97c1_19S4A1p5YkpnVv2oqTwgxWqNkjhw_A=w1199-h614-rw[/img]
AND TAA_DAA!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rewPCAJfTP0uv9QGV6cP7bM4OYTyQVYyIGmJcudFfrBhhiuqeFRJnq0Ijb6z55k90x9LaxJj1bQhIjI=w1199-h614-rw)
-
Impressive at 4 pumps indeed. Waiting for these to hit the States. One is on my list for sure. In .22.
I brought up your first picture then used the Windows snipping tool. Then just attached it normally using the reply option.
-
Are my eyes deceiving me or is that the Daisy 880 rubber baby buggy bumper?
-
Are my eyes deceiving me or is that the Daisy 880 rubber baby buggy bumper?
It does look like it. It's a cylander of rubber, I'm not too familiar with the Daisy, but it's under compression to make it have a bump.
-
Hoosier - I was playing with that last week. I was writing on my phone, so editing the urls to make them embed was too much of a pain. This is what I came up with, looks like about the same thing.
So here's the basic code that goes into to the img tags:
https://docs.google.com/uc?id=FILE-ID
Here's the link Google creates when you share:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwd492kB9xvgV3JyR2FLYmJIcGc/view?usp=drivesdk
And here is the final link that embeds in the img tag:
https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0Bwd492kB9xvgV3JyR2FLYmJIcGc
-
I played with the Piston stoke a bit today. I moved it just a bit closer to the valve didn't see any difference in speed(still 560), backed off a bit and lost 20fps. Pumping effort was really unchanged.
I'm wondering if the pump geometry is out of whack.
-
that's really odd. is it smooth but simply locks up at pump 5
-
that's really odd. is it smooth but simply locks up at pump 5
The hard part is the last bit to lock the pump arm, and almost as hard to release the pump arm to stroke again. It's not locking up, it just requires way more energy than I want to put in. 5 pumps is doable, I can go all 8, but it's unreasonably hard. I can cock all of my magnum springers offhand if need be no problem.
-
I wonder if that rubber bumper is making too much friction /suction on the back stroke. Maybe Bill has some insight from the 880's
-
I wonder if that rubber bumper is making too much friction /suction on the back stroke. Maybe Bill has some insight from the 880's
If you look at the valve position pictures you can see that the whole piston , bumper, mop are dynamic and floating in the slot just behind the mop.
I would really like to see what this assembly is doing under compression.
-
that's really odd. is it smooth but simply locks up at pump 5
The hard part is the last bit to lock the pump arm, and almost as hard to release the pump arm to stroke again. It's not locking up, it just requires way more energy than I want to put in. 5 pumps is doable, I can go all 8, but it's unreasonably hard. I can cock all of my magnum springers offhand if need be no problem.
for now , I'm still blaming the valve .. no , it wouldn't affect the backstroke , but certainly the closing force.
-
that's really odd. is it smooth but simply locks up at pump 5
The hard part is the last bit to lock the pump arm, and almost as hard to release the pump arm to stroke again. It's not locking up, it just requires way more energy than I want to put in. 5 pumps is doable, I can go all 8, but it's unreasonably hard. I can cock all of my magnum springers offhand if need be no problem.
for now , I'm still blaming the valve .. no , it wouldn't affect the backstroke , but certainly the closing force.
The backstroke is easy, but it's getting it to unlock that is hard.
As far as closing force the valve is as simple as can be. There are plastic cones on each side, held in place by a spring that runs through the valve. The hammer spring exerts enough pressure that that side of the valve is open if it's not cocked before pumping.
The takeaway...perhaps the spring inside the valve might be too strong?
-
I figured it was a basic crosman esq valve layout.. but yes, try a lighter spring and see if it helps
-
I figured it was a basic crosman esq valve layout.. but yes, try a lighter spring and see if it helps
Sounds like a plan. The force when joining the valve halves together is significant, perhaps 2-3 pounds. I wasn't thinking about it. It could be more.
It's a pain to get the valve out, complete teardown. So I'll give it a go next weekend so I can get a few springs and many orings.
-
yep, the preload in most pumper valves is pretty high, the 1377 comes to mind and the 392.. SO it might help not having to fight the backforce.
-
Interesting that the valve spring is so stiff and yet the hammer spring is under so much preload that it pushes the valve open if not cocked first. Must have a strong and long hammer spring. Hopefully a lighter valve spring helps out with the pumping!
-
First off. It's really hard to say exactly what is going on without one in front of me. From what information has been given, the way I understand it, I would guess you have the piston adjusted too long. That would make closing the last bit of stroke tight as the bumper is getting compressed. Compressing the bumper too much could also be the reason it's hard to open the pump arm and it would be expanded in the tube. As far as valve and hammer springs... I think I would begin by lightening both of them. Just my thoughts. I must say... the gun certainly draws my attention.
-
First off. It's really hard to say exactly what is going on without one in front of me. From what information has been given, the way I understand it, I would guess you have the piston adjusted too long. That would make closing the last bit of stroke tight as the bumper is getting compressed. Compressing the bumper too much could also be the reason it's hard to open the pump arm and it would be expanded in the tube. As far as valve and hammer springs... I think I would begin by lightening both of them. Just my thoughts. I must say... the gun certainly draws my attention.
I didn't think about the bumper expanding. It most certainly is though. Infact it should be able to expand a lot. I've got it set up so I can adjust the stroke without disassembly now. So I'll try backing off little by little. It's a course thread on the adjustment, about .025 for a revolution.
-
Before playing anymore with the valve I just shot 20 JB paste coated pellets, and cleaned with kroil.
Right before I got 552, 549, 554. After cleaning I got 587, 590, 587.
This is still 4 pumps only. I tried the stoke shorter and got about 1/4 rotation before the fps started dropping.
At this point 5 pumps were 623, 623. And 6 pumps was 652.
It looks like it's building power now. But still hard as *(&^ after 4 pumps. I still suspect bad geometry.
But it's a good result as the initial strings I had were at 500 with 4 pumps.
-
that's serious power for 5 pumps
-
it might even be bullfrog worthy with 3 pumps....i gotta get one when there available.
cant wait to hear about your accuracy 8)
-
Silly question...
Is it a 4 pump max gun by design?
Did it come with a Manual?
-
Gendoc - accuracy reports soon, just waiting for it to settle down. It's less than a dime at 10yds. I haven't been trying while working on speed and repeatability.
Hoosier - It does have a manual and parts diagram. I'll scan it at work, I cant do it with the camera its super tiny. As for the pumps it says 3 for 500, 4 for 550, and 8 for 650. All speeds are listed +- 50fps. So I think I'm doing fine specwise. As I'm getting near 600 at 4 pumps with 14.3 pellets.
-
Whelp I'm doing something ugly. I really do hope these show up under the Diana brand or this will be forever ugly.
I'm about to epoxy/glass these together.
-
nice, I hope youre extending the pump handle
-
Silly question...
Is it a 4 pump max gun by design?
Did it come with a Manual?
I would imagine the gun takes the amount of pumps that equal the fpe of the PCP version? Or is the valve different?
-
Epoxy cured overnight. 8 pumps is now trivial. It makes me think even more that they didn't design the pump geometry correctly. 8 pumps are averaging 684 with 14.3 pellets. The spread was +-4 fps over 5 shots.
I'll shoot some at 15 yds later if we get a break in the rain.
-
that's awesome ! A huge part of the reason we don't see underlevers on high end guns like the indy is the inherent limitation in lever arm.
-
All rain all day...I shot a couple magazines kitty corner in the garage which is about 34 feet.
-
that's awesome ! A huge part of the reason we don't see underlevers on high end guns like the indy is the inherent limitation in lever arm.
I disagree, Abomination is more like it. Sky had to significantly modify his gun out of the box to use it at it's advertised specs... If this was a Benjamin everyone would be screaming "JUNK!"
It is not an underlever... it is a pumper that should be able to be pumped to the OEM spec of 8 pumps WITHOUT assistance. That is a design flaw and is an outright mistake of the design engineer and was allowed into production.
If the pump arm is too short to go past 4 pumps ergonomically on an 8 pump gun, as in without added leverage, it is worthless to me and screams back shelf if not returned.
Why would this be acceptable?
-
you just said the same thing I said,,.. the high end pumpers like the indy use the longer sidelever so the user can easily pump them.. when I said awesome , I was referring to his modding effort, not the shortcomings of the gun..
-
The Indy is a good example of proper pump geometry. I'm trying to find an old post about pump geometry. But I'm measuring a 13xx and the lr700w now...I might be on to something.
-
the pump geometry only goes so far if the lever is too short to have the mechanical advantage to move the move the piston,On the green forum, they did an extensive breakdown on geometries a few months ago
-
Here's the ratios of the 700 vs a 1322. The stock lever length is 8" for the 1377 and 13 for the 700.
-
nothing too drastic there.. but , if we compared the swept volume and force required to move the swept volume of each gun it might be expected that the 700 has 3 x the lever length
-
nothing too drastic there.. but , if we compared the swept volume and force required to move the swept volume of each gun it might be expected that the 700 has 3 x the lever length
I (edit) CAN'T measure the air volume with the accuracy needed to get good numbers there. What jumps out to me is the length of the cocking pivot to the Piston pivot on the 700. The longer that is the harder the pump will be (I think). I added about 6" to the cocking lever on the 700, and if I pump it using 3-4 inches of the extension it's as easy to get to 8 pumps as the 13xx is to get to 10, perhaps a bit easier.
So I still think they screwed up the geometry. A shorter piston stroke and 10 pumps or a longer lever to crank on.
-
yea,, the longer " toggle " as its sometimes called equates to a longer stroke of the piston.. this is also the case in the older crosman 1400 but that's using a far smaller piston for the long stroke.. the fact that its now easy, means power mods are limitless.
-
This is what I was thinking of:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2016/12/pump-assist-benjamin-392-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2016/12/pump-assist-benjamin-392-part-1/)
-
I recall seeing pics of that super-linkage..not sure how practical it is , especially when you already made the extended lever. Now the turboair pump linkage is kinda cool , but again I don't see it being practical for standing up and pumping.. it would require body weight.
-
Yeah not practical at all. I was just trying to dredge up the picture from 2008 or so.
-
While I respect all you efforts and abilities. I am not of the same mindset on a new gun.
If I bought a new vehicle that was supposed to take me from point A to point B on the 4 lane Highway... but for some reason I could not push the accelerator enough to get past 40 MPH, I would not look for ways to modify it.
*EDIT*
I don't mean to sound like a Troll, and I know most here like to tinker with our Airguns.
I think this particular one had a flaw that might have benefited SPA to know they had an issue if it had been returned.
-
I got pumpers coming out my ying and my yang. What I don't have is a repeater pumper that will sling a .22 pellet at 500 fps with 4 pumps, all wood and metal and can swap mags with several other guns I own.. I'm still in.
Besides that, who says I can't pump it easier than the next guy. I eat Wheaties w/Budweiser for breakfast.
Sky... ever owned a Sheridan? Be interesting to know how you would compare pumping one to the SPA at 8 pumps. If you are comparing in to those Crosman pumpers you have, I can see your point. I know guys that lay the Sheridan upside down on their lap to pump them.. Personally, I rarely pump a Sheridan past 5 pumps. I highly doubt I would pump the LR700W past that very often either.
-
I got pumpers coming out my ying and my yang. What I don't have is a repeater pumper that will sling a .22 pellet at 500 fps with 4 pumps, all wood and metal and can swap mags with several other guns I own.. I'm still in.
Besides that, who says I can't pump it easier than the next guy. I eat Wheaties w/Budweiser for breakfast.
i'm with you on this Bill, especially the breakfast of champions......... ;D
-
Well, we've seen some of the manufacturers coming out with break barrel repeaters lately but I don't see any repeating pumpers. I may have missed one. I like the idea of a completely self contained pester/small game hunter that I don't have to fiddle with single pellet loading. You don't have the recoil and hold sensitivity of a springer, the temp sensitivity of C02 or the support equipment of a PCP. Just grab a few mags and hit the backyard/field/woods. 4 - 5 pumps between shots ain't a deal breaker for me. If they are like the Varmint and Plinkster in weight and design, they will be very comfortable to carry and shoot. I'd probably even go with a peep sight.
-
You silver tongued dickens you...
;D
-
Just the facts .. ma'am.
-
I got pumpers coming out my ying and my yang. What I don't have is a repeater pumper that will sling a .22 pellet at 500 fps with 4 pumps, all wood and metal and can swap mags with several other guns I own.. I'm still in.
Besides that, who says I can't pump it easier than the next guy. I eat Wheaties w/Budweiser for breakfast.
Sky... ever owned a Sheridan? Be interesting to know how you would compare pumping one to the SPA at 8 pumps. If you are comparing in to those Crosman pumpers you have, I can see your point. I know guys that lay the Sheridan upside down on their lap to pump them.. Personally, I rarely pump a Sheridan past 5 pumps. I highly doubt I would pump the LR700W past that very often either.
After cleaning and dialing in the piston I'm getting 590 with 4 pumps. And the pumping was fine for 4.
I used to be a steel worker, and am still pretty strong. Not quite 40. So I don't think it was a me thing. I've never pumped a Sheridan though.
-
i have gotta have one of these....3 pumps will do me great for frogs...
when are they going to arrive in the U.S. ??
-
::) ::) Just stop all you silver tongued enablers. Any repeater is a ball to shoot as stated load a couple extra mags and good to go. I am waiting on the Hatsan under lever repeater and probably the hefty semi auto pistol as well so a multi shot pumper can have a slot in my collection.
-
Just a couple more bits.
I took the stock off again for reasons and looked at part #40, the trigger base. It is a block that never screwed in tightly to the bottom tube. I applied just a few inch pounds and it found deeper threads, and cinched up to the tube.
I also realized that my pump handle would never match so I painted the wood :) my son loved it.
After cinching up the trigger base the poi shifted markedly left, and groups tightened up a bit. Last shot string with 4 pumps averages 584 with 7 shots +-4 fps. Very consistent.
I don't know if I mentioned the magazine...it takes a little practice, but it loads pellets better than the tray, and is long enough for any pellet I've ever seen.
-
While I respect all you efforts and abilities. I am not of the same mindset on a new gun.
If I bought a new vehicle that was supposed to take me from point A to point B on the 4 lane Highway... but for some reason I could not push the accelerator enough to get past 40 MPH, I would not look for ways to modify it.
*EDIT*
I don't mean to sound like a Troll, and I know most here like to tinker with our Airguns.
I think this particular one had a flaw that might have benefited SPA to know they had an issue if it had been returned.
I didn't think you were trolling. Fwiw I emailed SPA/Aremis and Diana with the basics of this thread and the link to it.
I like the rifle, I don't think I've said that either....it's not really a 250$ (as shipped) rifle. But once direct imports begin it should be cheap and worth the price.
-
a lot of those parts look quite familiar .. the barrel band , the little valve block etc.. So they are using a lot of the same parts for the plinkster, the varmint , and the 700 pumper.
-
After tightening the block at the same 11 yds.
It is pretty sensitive to any pressure. This was the best of three.
-
584 at 4 just puts a candle on the top of the cupcake.