GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: RBQChicken on September 18, 2017, 05:58:34 PM
-
In a recent thread I asked advice here about removing pellets that have been stuck for decades in a Sheridan that was given to me. Thanks to all for your helpful comments.
I decided to start this new thread to report on the progress as I try to bring this gun back to life.
The first thing I did was run a wooden dowel down the barrel from both the muzzle and breach ends to get an idea of how many pellets were stuck in there. I estimated there were 13.
I tried to tap them out with the 1/8" wooden dowel but it immediately broke. I then bought some 1/8" steel rod and, going in from the muzzle end (since the first pellet was only about 6 inches from the muzzle) I carefully placed the rod end on what I estimated to be the center of the pellets nose and gave it a few sharp raps with a hammer. I know it's not a good idea to work a metal rod down the muzzle of a brass barrel but I was confident that with such a short piece I could keep it away from the rifling and I just wanted to see if I could start the pellets moving, and if I could, then maybe I could push them the rest of the way out with the wooden dowel. All I managed to do was get the rod stuck in the nose of he pellet, without budging any of the pellets. It was easy enough to get it unstuck and I could see that I had made a little hole in the noxe of the pellet right dead center.
Next, I sprayed some PB Blaster down the muzzle and let the barrel stand on end for awhile, until I saw the solvent coming out the othe end of the barrel. I let the stuff work for an hour or two and tried again with the wood dowel and then the metal rod, but no dice.
I then tried heating the barrel up with a heat gun. Got it hot to the touch, but still couldn't budge those pellets.
Finally, after thinking about it for a couple of days I made a pellet puller by epoxying a GRK screw into the threaded part of an Outer's brand steel .177 cal. Cleaning rod that I had laying around. I had to cut the head off the screw and then chuck the screw in my drill and run the shank against my bench grinder to reduce the diameter enough so it would go into the threaded part of the cleaning rod. Let it sit overnight to cure.
This morning I started working on it, figuring it's now or never. Going from the breach end, I carefully pushed the rod up the barrel until I hit the rear-most pellet. I quickly realized I'd never be able to grip that skinny rod enough to apply enough forward pressure to get the screw started into the pellet, or be able to actually turn the screw. I grabbed my Vice-grips and clamped them on the cleaning rod aways below the ball-bearing handle of the rod and used the vice-grips as my handle for applying pressure, turning, and when I finally figured I had good purchase on the pellet, to pull the pellets out.
Man, it takes some pressure to get that screw started in the lead! After about 3 or 4 revolutions I could feel noticeably more resistance as I was turning the screw, so I figured the threads were biting in now. I gave it one or two more complete turns and decided it was time to try pulling it out. With one hand holding the barrel on my workbench and the other hand surrounding both the cleaning rod and vice-grips that were clamped to it I started to slowly pull back, applying more and more pressure. Right about the time I figured it's not going to work I felt the first pellet let go. Funny thing is, the rifling was forcing that rod to turn in my hand, even though I was also holding the vice grips at the same time. I let go of the vice grips and grabbed the rod by the ball bearing handle and pulled the pellet all the way out, the vice grips spinning in the air as the rifling forced the revolutions.
After the fourth pellet I had to start taking a brief rest after each pellet because all that pushing and turning was tiring me out. All in all, I took 15 pellets out!
I then cleaned the barrel thoroughly with Goo Gone and then dry patches until they were coming out clean. The bore looks nice and bright and when holding a light at one end and looking down from the other the rifling looks nice and consistent all the way, BUT, the lands look kind of thin near the muzzle, and one of the lands seems to disappear about 3/8" from the crown, and it seems to be a little bit rough in one spot about a quarter inch in. I noticed this before I started working on the gun
It's very hard for me to see just inside the muzzle, I'm holding a flashlight in one hand and a very small 10x magnifier in the other and trying to get enough light in there and getting the focal length just right with the other hand is a real bugger, but it seems like there might be a little bit of a problem in that first half inch or so.
Anyway, after cleaning the barrel I pushed a couple of pellets through, and I get six nice, distinct grooves from the lands, but about one millimeter from one of the land-grooves there is another, smaller groove on both head and skirt so I'm thinking there is a burr in there somewhere. Maybe it's something that will eventually shoot out with enough pellets down the barrel?
The other problem with this gun is the receiver and about 6 inches of barrel are separated from the pump tube. I know the best way to fix that is to resolder it, but I'm reluctant to go that route because it's a lot of work and expense since the valve would have to be removed (I'd have to buy a valve puller) and I'd probably have to refinish the metal ('cause I'd want it to look nice). As it is right now, the metal finish is in great shape.
I was thinking about JB Welding it, but I see now there is very little space to work the material in since I can only lift the receiver up about a millimeter off the tube.
This got me to thinking about using Black Max superglue (Loctite 380) http://www.na.henkel-adhesives.com/adhesives/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797890609153&msdsLanguage=EN_US&selectedTab=casehistories (http://www.na.henkel-adhesives.com/adhesives/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797890609153&msdsLanguage=EN_US&selectedTab=casehistories)
Hoosier Daddy really liked it for his barrel separation, and it's very thin so I think I could clamp the receiver in place and it should easily run into the tight gaps if I squeeze it out right next to the joints, plus, it's black, so any residue should blend in fairly well. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this idea.
I'm thinking this would be a quick, easy and low cost way to get the gun back together so I can see if it will be an accurate gun, or just a parts gun.
One thing I would like comment on is if you think this glue could easily be burned off with a propane or MAPP gas torch if the experiment failed and I needed to resolder it. Thanks for listening.
Pics below of my homemade pellet puller and the 15 pellets I pulled out. If the pellets look pretty chewed up it's because I had to grip them with pliers to turn them off of the screw after I extracted them. The screw went right down the middle of all the pellets and no part of the screw cut through the sides of the pellets so the rifling was safe from the screw as I pulled the pellets out.
-
Great job getting the pellets out.
Was wondering how you were going to do it.
I hope you can get the rifle shooting accurately again
Dave
-
Great deal ! I am glad you got those out .
-
Man, 15 pellets stuck in the barrel ???
Glad you could get them out👍
-
I've had luck on many Dans and Benjis with the JBWeld. It works great on the barrel, but not so much on the receiver. It will eventually break. Somebody else said they used it and it broke on them. At the time mine was doing well. After another month or so I noticed it was running a crack on the right side. I think it had to do with cocking the rifle. Hence why it was happening on the right side. The design of the handle makes you tend to pull the rifle upward and toward the left. Resulting in it cracking on the right side
-
I can see that. Makes sense. I always pull straight back with no upward pressure but many others wouldn't. If I glued the gun I know I'd have to divulge that info if I ever sold it (I couldn't do otherwise in good conscience) and I know that would depreciate the value of the gun, but I keep coming back to the fact that this gun's accuracy may already have been compromised and I don't want to invest much unless I knew it would be a good, accurate gun.
That's why I'd like to try something that would be cheap and easy to do that would enable me to shoot the gun for awhile, and if I found it was a gun worth fixing the right way, I would then solder it or have it soldered.
So I'm still thinking of gluing it and leaning towards the Loctite 380 Black Max superglue, but I'd like to know if it could be easily removed if I eventually wanted to re-solder it.
I read once where TimmyMac said don't even send him a gun that's been glued (I think he might have been talking about JB Weld but I'm not sure) because it's too much work to clean properly for a good solder job, but someone else replied that JB Weld drops off easy if you hit it with a propane torch. Not sure if that's clean enough for a good solder job and not sure if that necessarily means that the Loctite 380 super glue would burn off just as easily.
Hoping someone has an answer.
I do have a throw away barrel/pump tube from my first gun. Barrel was shot and I replaced it with a good one.
I guess I could try these things out on that barrel to get my answers (and also practice pulling valves and soldering) but was hoping for some quicker answers so I could proceed sooner.
Thanks for the input!
-
Sadly the barrel as it is now WON'T re-solder due to oxidation that has already happened on the separated brass/bronze surfaces previously soldered.
Add any fillers or glues to this gap in a repair attempt may not stick too well either which is a bummer.
You may be able to rinse & flush the crack with a minor acid such as vinegar and lemon juice etc ... * Do a google search on bronze cleaning or etching.
That done you may be successful in a spot area re-solder or at least prepped for JB weld. * going the JB route, heat the parts first so the JB is immediately thinned and has a chance to flow into the offending crack prior to setting up.
-
Temporarily secure the separated section with zip ties, safety wire, or even tape. If it proves to be a good shooter, get it repaired properly. i.e. soldered.
-
Temporarily secure the separated section with zip ties, safety wire, or even tape. If it proves to be a good shooter, get it repaired properly. i.e. soldered.
That's what I might do, if it's at the end and I could get the wire through the roll pins.
-
Photobucket thing really messed me up. Just loaded a bunch of pics into an album. I had bought a lot of 397's a while back, none working, missing parts, and broken parts. The 397P had the receiver splitting. Can't find a pic of it lifted, but found the pics with the JBWeld. You really have to look closely to even notice it. Helps that the 397P is chromed. You can see it real well with the pic with the Williams sight on it. Then the terrible solder job. The JBWeld is a very good product. I just took a propane torch to it. It will cook it then you can pick it off. Just breaks in sections as your picking at it. If you notice you can see it's a half solder job and half still JBWeld. Even after taking the torch the front half is still very secured on there. That half I never put it in direct flame. I just picked off everything loose and cleaned up and soldered from that point. It's been like this for a year and a half. No problems. Looks ugly, was my first solder job on a Benji, but shoots great. I even have a intermount on it and no issues.
https://m.imgur.com/a/4yYvn
-
Next time I'd use one of those small torch pens and a smaller diameter solder probably .022
-
Rob,
Seeing as how the JB Weld is still holding on the front part of the receiver, and it was obviously easier to do than soldering (judging by the results), do you think it might have been a good option to just redo the JB Weld on the rear part of the receiver, and if it ever cracked again, just redo it again?
How did you clean the metal before using the JB Weld (and the solder)?
Did you try to spread the JB Weld under the receiver, or just do the fillet on both sides?
That JB Weld job looks smooth as silk. The solder job looks like a prophecy of a future RBQChicken solder job :D .
-
Rob,
Seeing as how the JB Weld is still holding on the front part of the receiver, and it was obviously easier to do than soldering (judging by the results), do you think it might have been a good option to just redo the JB Weld on the rear part of the receiver, and if it ever cracked again, just redo it again?
How did you clean the metal before using the JB Weld (and the solder)?
Did you try to spread the JB Weld under the receiver, or just do the fillet on both sides?
That JB Weld job looks smooth as silk. The solder job looks like a prophecy of a future RBQChicken solder job :D .
I would have redone it again, but I inspected my cocking action closely. It just tends to happen. You have to intentional cocking straight back. Doing it just naturally that upward and counterclockwise pull is gonna happen. I even shoot left handed and cock leith the left hand. For I righty the bad cocking motion would be more enhanced naturally. I have friends that shoot the gun so I figured I'd just solder it and be done with it. (I didn't have anyone else shoot the rifle either) If you are the only one shooting it give the JB a try. It's worked great on barrel separation on several, even ones I've sold and I haven't heard anything from them stating it cracked. I even used it on a 75 Toyota Chinook that I removed the smog system. There was many of hoses running from the smog unit to random areas of the truck. On the exhaust side of engine there was a weird temperature relief mechanism that bolted in, odd size so I couldn't find a bolt, and had 2 bibs coming off it. I unbolted the whole thing, roughly 1/2 tapped hole, and globbed JBWeld into it and to this day it's still in there sealing up that port. Even with the temperature of the engine it's in there solid. It can withstand 550*F.
Answer your one question, how did I set the JB. I did one side at a time. I got a small file and scratched up area the JB would go. I used a small ziptie as the applicator. Then squeezed the receiver to the tube couple times working the JB into crack. Then I ziptied it and left it JB side up so it would naturally work into crack. Used my finger like I was spreading caulk and left for the day. Next day I did the same to other side.
That's why I would go with the thinner diameter solder this time and a small torch instead of a traditional plumber supplies. Haha. Even now I could take the Dremel to it and make it look good, but it's fine. Maybe if I ever sell it I might.
-
Oh, only 2 cleaning products I use. Isopropyl alcohol and Simple Green. If I have it stripped of all the steel pieces. I'll use the hoses and blast her clean of remaining gunk and cleaning product.
-
How did those pellets group after you pulled them out?
-
It groups very nicely, at least for my type of shooting. I make targets out of paper plates, marking nickel-sized bulls-eyes with a black magic marker and shooting at 12 yards. That's about the distance I take pests at.
7 shots in a row in the bulls-eye. It doesn't always shoot that well, but neither does my other Blue streak, and I suspect when it's not shooting well it's because of me. Some days my eyesight is more clear than other days, and I'm just steadier and more confident some days, too. On those days, good groups.
-
It groups very nicely, at least for my type of shooting. I make targets out of paper plates, marking nickel-sized bulls-eyes with a black magic marker and shooting at 12 yards. That's about the distance I take pests at.
7 shots in a row in the bulls-eye. It doesn't always shoot that well, but neither does my other Blue streak, and I suspect when it's not shooting well it's because of me. Some days my eyesight is more clear than other days, and I'm just steadier and more confident some days, too. On those days, good groups.
Randy: I'm glad you got the pellets out and your gun is now working for you. ;D ;) Best Wishes - Tom
-
it won't cost you anything if you send Timmy Mac an E-mail to find out the cost of repairing it, it might be worth it to find out, before you start working on it.....
-
Thanks Tom. Kevin, I may do that, just thinking I might like to do it myself. I have a worthless Sheridan barrel/pump tube to practice on. I'd only attempt the real thing if I convinced myself I could do a good job.
-
Part are Available, but you might find it hard to get a good solder, I don't think they used plain ol' plumbing solder, and not Electrical solder, I would think some thing like staybrite silver solder for a stronger hold, but I don't know exactly what they use.
-
I've been wondering about that myself. I have a type of plumbing solder, but it says it has silver in it, and I heard silver solder is a very strong solder. I think it said melting temp of 475F.
-
I've been wondering about that myself. I have a type of plumbing solder, but it says it has silver in it, and I heard silver solder is a very strong solder. I think it said melting temp of 475F.
sounds like you have something similar to stay-brite( https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51aA7BMk9WL._SY355_.jpg )
any silver content will be a Plus......
I did HVAC and Refrigeration, so all we used was Silver solder and stay-brite, I would recommend using a double tipped oxy- acetylene torch if you are well trained to use one, but if not, a map gas or propane small tipped torch will work nicely for better control of the heated area.
-
Hmmmm, maybe the torch I was planning on using is too aggressive? It's this one, with the swirl tip. https://www.bernzomatic.com/Products/Hand-Torches/Instant-On-Off/TS4000 (https://www.bernzomatic.com/Products/Hand-Torches/Instant-On-Off/TS4000)
Apparently you can get a 1/2" pencil point tip for them but I'm having a tough time locating one.
I figured I would stuff the pump tube around the valve area with wet rags to keep from melting the solder on the valve faces. Would that work, or should I be looking at a smaller torch, maybe like this one:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/BERNZOMATIC-UL2317-Pencil-Torch-Spark-Ignitor-Propane/707166256?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1122&adid=22222222227071356695&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=182404905094&wl4=aud-310687322522:pla-56336675105&wl5=9017742&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=101593696&wl11=online&wl12=707166256&wl13=&veh=sem (https://www.walmart.com/ip/BERNZOMATIC-UL2317-Pencil-Torch-Spark-Ignitor-Propane/707166256?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1122&adid=22222222227071356695&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=182404905094&wl4=aud-310687322522:pla-56336675105&wl5=9017742&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=101593696&wl11=online&wl12=707166256&wl13=&veh=sem)
I also have one of these old torches, much less aggressive and seems to give a very sharp pencil point type flame http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-USA-BERNZOMATIC-TORCH-Medina-NY-14103-/232479729530 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-USA-BERNZOMATIC-TORCH-Medina-NY-14103-/232479729530)
-
the vintage torch looks like the best one for the job, it's adjustable and it would have a more precise flame than the Swirl tip, the swirl tip is good for plumbing and large diameter pipe, you want precision and you will still want to wrap the valve, make sure to keep the bolt open and the o-ring protected or removed, remove the spring and the hammer too, disassemble the gun as much as possible, the valve poppet could be removed if you have the tool, I've made a tool before using 3/8" copper tube Squaring off one end and bending the tube to make a handle, but you may not need to if you can keep it cool enough, you may need (or not) some solder flux, I repaired barrel separation on my Sheridan before, you just need to heat it until the solder melts and carefully move the torch, solder will flow to the heated areas, as soon as the solder flows move the heat, don't over heat the tubes, keep torch moving to spread heat evenly,
that's about all the advice I can give you.
good luck
-
Thanks for all your help. I think I would have really overheated it with that swirl tip torch. I plan on removing everything before attempting soldering. It will just be a pump tube and barrel with no valve guts. I was most concerned about melting the solder holding the valve walls ("bulkheads") in place, that's why I plan on stuffing the pump tubes with wet rags before soldering.
-
as long as you don't have to do any soldering at the valve area the wet rags will help keep the valve body cool, but don't place wet rags in the tube in areas you have to solder, it will keep the area of tube from getting hot enough to melt the solder, I've silver brazed thousands of service valves and Reversing valves in HVAC systems without damaging the valves, just having wet rags wrapped around the right areas will do the trick.
-
I will be soldering at the valve area, just above it. The receiver is right on top of the valve area.
-
My word.....that's amazing! I am highly impressed with your efforts and with the results. Congrats!
-
I will be soldering at the valve area, just above it. The receiver is right on top of the valve area.
you may not need wet rags as long as the valve is stripped of all rubber and parts that can burn, you should be fine, just keep most of the heat directed onto the barrel and the receiver, the solder (when it melts) will pull itself toward the heated parts and the flame, it will probably align itself as long as you keep the rifle level.
-
Sounds like an excellent plan. I really appreciate your advice. Thanks!
-
Thanks for the encouragement Lizzie. I'm not there yet, as far as the congrats go, but it is appreciated. :)
-
Well, no......I'd say that removing 15 pellets which have been lodged for years, is a pretty darn good accomplishment Hah!