GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Marc In Iowa on September 17, 2017, 08:00:39 PM
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So far, my best pellet is .177 JSB Exact RS (7.3 grain). 10-shot groups are 1 to 1.5 CTC at 25 yards.
It has the factory, stiff and mushy trigger. If I were to keep this rifle, I'd be doing either the Alliance Hobby trigger or Mrod gen 1 trigger upgrade.
For those with upgraded triggers, how much better has it made your groups?
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My maxi is .22, not really apples to apples....
My group consistency improved with trigger mods, the gun shot the same groups, as long as I did my part controlling the cruddy trigger... at 25 yds, 1/2" or less with pellets it likes.
Installing a trigger alone won't do IMHO. Stoning and polishing the stamped sear, doing the 3 screw mod, using a lighter trigger return spring will go a long way to making a better trigger for next to no cost.
I did install a new trigger blade as well. Having a wider blade face, with a little more curve, makes the trigger feel better to my finger, don't really do squat for pull.
Also, I think the heavy hammer spring contributes to the healthy pull. It also gave me a descending shot string with no bell curve. I used an old stock, disco hammer spring and installed a power adjuster. I can't get the same first few shots of FPS that the heavy spring produced now. However, I can get a bell curve and a reasonable 25 fpe tune.
Never put an mrod trigger pack on a disco or maxi. I do like my mrod triggers though.
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The (well known) upgraded brass trigger is a great improvement, with the additional adjustment screws in the kit and the softer spring.
An additional barrel clamp is on the rifle. The rifle has the 6.5 inch TKO (but neither improves or worsens the accuracy).
25 meters 22 caliber H&N field target Trophy pellets. Shot off a shaky TV dinner tray-table while sitting on a 5 gallon bucket.
It was one ragged hole, ten shots. A dime is 0.7 inches in diameter. The pellets were .22 diameter. I suspect center to center the ragged hole was maybe 0.3 (if that) inches center to center.
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My maxi is .22, not really apples to apples....
My group consistency improved with trigger mods, the gun shot the same groups, as long as I did my part controlling the cruddy trigger... at 25 yds, 1/2" or less with pellets it likes.
1/2" or less at 25 yards would be real nice.
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Don't buy that overpriced trigger from Alliance! Get this from Baker Air Guns.
https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/discovery-triggers/ (https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/discovery-triggers/)
Makes it much easier to get consistent accuracy and is an inexpensive fix. Easy to install & adjust and it looks pretty as well! ;)
Ed
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The standard brass trigger is a great improvement, with the additional adjustment screws in the kit and the softer spring.
An additional barrel clamp is on the rifle. The rifle has the 6.5 inch TKO (but neither improves or worsens the accuracy).
25 meters 22 caliber H&N field target Trophy pellets. Shot off a shaky TV dinner tray-table while sitting on a 5 gallon bucket.
It was one ragged hole, ten shots. A dime is 0.7 inches in diameter. The pellets were .22 diameter. I suspect center to center the ragged hole was maybe 0.3 (if that) inches center to center.
.3" CTC at 25m would very nice to get to.
Sounds like I need the new brass trigger with the 2 screws and softer spring.
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Marc-Don't want you to miss my post above your last.
Ed
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Don't buy that overpriced trigger from Alliance! Get this from Baker Air Guns.
https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/discovery-triggers/ (https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/discovery-triggers/)
Makes it much easier to get consistent accuracy and is an inexpensive fix. Easy to install & adjust and it looks pretty as well! ;)
Ed
Thanks, Ed. Looks about the same geometry and about 1/2 the cost.
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I put a Baker trigger in my wife's Maximus. Huge improvement, even though I didn't polish much otherwise.
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Don't buy that overpriced trigger from Alliance! Get this from Baker Air Guns.
https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/discovery-triggers/ (https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/discovery-triggers/)
Makes it much easier to get consistent accuracy and is an inexpensive fix. Easy to install & adjust and it looks pretty as well! ;)
Ed
Thanks, Ed. Looks about the same geometry and about 1/2 the cost.
Exactly! ;)
Ed
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I put a Baker trigger in my wife's Maximus. Huge improvement, even though I didn't polish much otherwise.
A huge improvement you could notice in your groups?
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The Baker trigger worked well for me. At least at first. As time went on, it started not holding the hammer. Probably because I added the spring adjuster and had it at higher spring pressure.
I finally spent the money on the MRod, first Gen. Trigger. (Discos-R-Us has the best price).
The adjustability, and control makes for a very accurate, and predictable shot.
I would not be willing to go back to the factory, or Baker trigger.
The MRod trigger really makes "that" much difference! ;)
KnifeMaker
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Marc,
Forgive me if you already know this...
Installing a new, or improving the stock trigger will do nothing for accuracy of the gun. It will, make it easier for you to shoot the gun more accurately...
Why am I saying this? If, you're controlling the trigger well as is, and shooting 1"-1 1/2" groups, these groups will likely NOT improve with a better trigger.
My groups were 1/2" or less BEFORE trigger mods. The trigger mods, simply made it easier on me to shoot these groups consistently...
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I'm not much of a paper puncher so I can't give you specifics since I bought my Maximus used from a GTA member with the Mrod trigger already installed. The rifle easily shoots quarters at 60 yards. What may be of value to this thread is that I installed the Baker trigger on my Disco before I sold it, and it was a great improvement over the stock trigger but nowhere near the current Mrod trigger. If maximum accuracy is your goal, my suggestion is to go with the Mrod trigger (the rifle won't be more accurate but there is a good chance YOU will shoot it better). See the current thread about triggers. The Baker is still very nice though.
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The MRod trigger really makes "that" much difference! ;)
I've been wondering about that. The price for the MRod trigger is not an issue. I was prepared to buy an MRod but wanted the lighter, handier rifle of the Maximus.
So ... I pre-budgeted for the trigger upgrade and a TKO moderator. I did want to shoot the factory rifle first though. I'm disappointed in the accuracy so far. Hence my question for those who've done a trigger upgrade.
You have to mod the stock for a new trigger guard, yes?
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Marc,
Forgive me if you already know this...
Installing a new, or improving the stock trigger will do nothing for accuracy of the gun. It will, make it easier for you to shoot the gun more accurately...
Why am I saying this? If, you're controlling the trigger well as is, and shooting 1"-1 1/2" groups, these groups will likely NOT improve with a better trigger.
My groups were 1/2" or less BEFORE trigger mods. The trigger mods, simply made it easier on me to shoot these groups consistently...
Hmmm. At 25 yards, I'm shooting .7", 10-shot groups CTC with my Hammerli 850 COČ and my HW30S springer.
As I'm breaking in this Maximus, I'm really taking my time, working the breathing and trying to work through that factory trigger to get the best group I can. Which so far, is not very good. I'm resting the rifle on my deck railing with a nice bean bag. At 9x, my rested hold is pretty steady (hence the good, repeatable groups from the 850 and HW30S), but not perfectly rock solid.
Sounds like my accuracy might not improve that much with this particular Maximus.
Any thoughts on this?
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It's called the crosman barrel lottery for good reason.
You may have a barrel that just won't shoot better. If, you think the trigger is really limiting your ability to shoot the rifle well, then I'd say trigger improvements might help you.
7.3gr is awful light, have you tried heavier pellets? Tried playing with velocity to improve groups? How does the crown look? Do pellets feed smoothly?
Burrs on the crown or leade will wreck an other wise accurate barrel.
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See the current thread about triggers.
Rambling thoughts on triggers? ... been reading that.
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My Maximus .22 shots 1 hole to 1/4" at 25 yds. Seems to be not to particular about the pellets ether, 14.3 CPUM,CPHP, CP Phiranas and 14.66 H&N FTT 5.53 all shot the same if I do my part. While fixing the 2 air leaks I also "cleaned up" the stock trigger hoping to help with accuracy out to 50 and 75 yds. I do plan on the Mrod gen 1 trigger with ether the Challenger guard or the NP2 guard depending on how much time I have.
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It's called the crosman barrel lottery for good reason.
You may have a barrel that just won't shoot better. If, you think the trigger is really limiting your ability to shoot the rifle well, then I'd say trigger improvements might help you.
7.3gr is awful light, have you tried heavier pellets? Tried playing with velocity to improve groups? How does the crown look? Do pellets feed smoothly?
Burrs on the crown or leade will wreck an other wise accurate barrel.
So far, I've tried about 9 different pellets; AA (2), JSB sampler (4), H&N sampler (2) and one type of lead-free (H&N Field Target Trophy Green 5.56 gr). The lead ranges from 7.3 grain for the JSB Exact RS to about 11 grains. Oh, and CPHP 7.8 grain.
I've been shooting 10-shot groups from about 60% to ~20% fill? Just guessing, looking at the little gauge. I re-pump after each group. Trying to go for a consistent fill.
The pellets seem to feed smoothly.
I don't know much about crowning. I've read a few posts with pictures. I'll try to take a look tomorrow.
I am wondering if I got the short straw on the barrel lottery. I had read that the lottery came more into play on. 22 barrels ... but maybe not.
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Marc,
My .177 mrod shotguned out of the box....
Motorhead(scott) was nice enough to sell me a spare barrel that shoots AA 10.3's VERY well! It shoots other pellets pretty good too, it's just the AA 10.3's are THE pellet for that barrel.
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The MRod trigger really makes "that" much difference! ;)
You have to mod the stock for a new trigger guard, yes?
Mine has the Challenger trigger guard and it doesn't look like the stock was modified.
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My .177 mrod shotguned out of the box....
Hmm. The Crosman barrel lottery not just limited to Disco and Maximus then ...
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Nope....
I think the "barrel lottery" term was first used for the mrod .22 barrels... some shot great, some ok, some were so bad the term "couldn't hit the broad side of the barn from the inside" applied...
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... [sold] me a spare barrel that shoots AA 10.3's VERY well!
I've seen some posts about putting in the LW barrel from the Challenger.
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When I bought my Beeman P17 I had read posts about poor quality control and I was prepared for that. The very first one I got wouldn't fire at all and I just sent it back. The second one I got fired perfectly and has operated perfectly ever since.
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Fear of Lottery factor was why the 25 Marauder with the Green Mountain barrel from the factory was so popular. That and it is easier to get a higher Foot Pounds of Energy with a larger heavier Pellet.
Some Crossman .177/.22 barrels may come with an "iffy" shooting barrel initially, but after putting a few hundred pellets down the bore they tend to improve.
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I put a Baker trigger in my wife's Maximus. Huge improvement, even though I didn't polish much otherwise.
A huge improvement you could notice in your groups?
I added the trigger before we had a chance to shoot groups so no idea of the accuracy. It makes it so much easier and nicer to shoot though so I can't see how that wouldn't help.
My Disco came with an Mrod trigger group and as others said, it's definitely great. Probably the best way to go. The Baker trigger is still way better than stock, and if you did some polishing and bend the V-shaped spring correctly... (see YouTube videos for that) you could probably get close the the Marauder.
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Did I win the barrel lottery ... or not?
Hard to tell, I suppose. I've attached the photo of my Crosman factory 5-shot, 10 yards group that came with my Maximus. Looks decent. Am I just shooting it poorly?
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Your maxi came with a factory 5 shot target? mine didn't.....
I assume, each square is 1/2", is this right? if so, that's about a 3/4" group, at 10yds, I call that horrible...
If the squares are 1/4", its still not a good group for 10yds at nearly 1/2".
Other than initial scope sight in, I don't shoot at 10yds with PCP's or even CO2 for that matter. My CO2 guns do get shot at 15yds some, I would be looking for a different pellet, or figuring out why my groups were so big even at 15yds...
If it were a 25yd group, its still not good IMHO, but might be good enough if you never planed to shoot past 25-30 yds.
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If the squares are 1/4", its still not a good group for 10yds at nearly 1/2".
The squares are 1/4".
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Just me...
At 10yds, I would expect the gun/pellet combo to keep however many shots I cared to fire within the black of the lozenge aka diamond, assuming I did my part of course. Anything over that would be unacceptable.
I figure as an average, groups will double in size as distance doubles... not always, just a general rule of thumb. So, at 20yds, I would expect that group to be nearly 1", at 25yds, I'd expect 1". You say you're seeing 1"-1.5" groups at 25yds, I don't think the trigger or you is the problem....
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... might be good enough if you never planed to shoot past 25-30 yds.
I have a Remington crow Field Target set at 25 yards with FT openings of 1.5, 1 and .5 inches. I had hoped to get better and keep dialing down the opening to the .5 setting. That'll be tough if I can't get below a 1" group.
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... might be good enough if you never planed to shoot past 25-30 yds.
I have a Remington crow Field Target set at 25 yards with FT openings of 1.5, 1 and .5 inches. I had hoped to get better and keep dialing down the opening to the .5 setting. That'll be tough if I can't get below a 1" group.
You cut off the "IF that were a 25yd group" part and its not....
hitting a 1.5 inch, 25yd target with a gun that groups 1"-1.5" at the same distance is almost as much luck as skill...
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Well, I can return or exchange the rifle. I suppose I could always spin the wheel of fortune one more time.
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I agree with you. Exchange it for one that shoots and then start adding trigger etc. There are too many on GTA with really accurate Maximus to accept a bad one.
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It made a world of difference for me, still not quite the amount i like but good enough that i don't feel like i am pulling the trigger on a caulk gun! Made my groups much smaller.
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If you're interested, there's a Maximus.22 in the classifieds with some upgrades.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=132440.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=132440.0)
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If you're interested, there's a Maximus.22 in the classifieds with some upgrades.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=132440.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=132440.0)
Thanks for the heads up! I want to stick with 177. Although, I did message the seller. :-)
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My Maximus .22 (purchased 8/4/17) @ 20yds yesterday (1/2" squares) after my O-ring fix. 10yd from Crosman was smaller.
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I am surprised it does not prefer the 10.3 and heavier pellets. Those light pellets are probably moving around 1000 fps.
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I am surprised it does not prefer the 10.3 and heavier pellets. Those light pellets are probably moving around 1000 fps.
I was surprised that my 5.56 grain lead-free pellets are only traveling at 930 fps for 10.8 fpe. I thought this rifle would function at a higher fpe level.
Maybe the oomph of my Maximus is part of my accuracy issue?
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I am surprised it does not prefer the 10.3 and heavier pellets.
Here's today's test at 25 yards. Best group if you discount one flyer is 10.65 gr at .65"; with flyer 1.1" CTC. Next group is the copper plated Baracuda Power 10.65 gr. at .9" CTC. These pellets travel at 848 fps for 16.9 fpe.
Maximus filled to 75%, shoot 10 pellets, refill to 75% for next trial (takes about 22 pumps to refill). So far, I've got about 150 pellets through the rifle.
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Posting for future reference.
I have snded / polished the stamped pieces and found a lighter sping for the trigger group. I guess next comes the hammer spring I think... and 2 screw mod.
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Marc, it is possible you haven't broken in your barrel yet with only 150 shots. I may have missed it, but did you give it a thorough cleaning first? I have a Maximus in .177 and can typically shoot nickel to dime groups at 50 yards, and quarters out to 60 if the weather is perfect. I've found H&N Sniper Mediums, JSB Monsters, and AA Heavies seem to be the most accurate in mine. I don't have a chronograph so I can't tell you what my FPS are with each, however I used Steve from AEAC's review to base my numbers on and using Chairgun for scope clicks they seem to be pretty accurate. I added a Baker trigger and it did help keep the groups tight, but I ran a tin of CPHP's first before I really worried about what it would do.
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Marc, it is possible you haven't broken in your barrel yet with only 150 shots. I may have missed it, but did you give it a thorough cleaning first?
I haven't cleaned it yet. Next step. I'll clean and keep going before I give up on the rifle.
BTW ... if you have a tablet or smartphone, you can use the app Chrono Connect for your pellet speeds. It gives results very close to a Chrony for about $4. It uses sounds (report, then impact) plus measured distances to calculate pellet speed. I had to fiddle a bit with setup but works well now. Works best outdoors.
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Now that I have had time to read the entire thread I will say I am surprised your 177 is not as accurate as my (and others) .22. Should be reversed.
BUT if Crosman only changed the bolt and barrel to make the caliber change I say you need to try heavier pellets... Much heavier.
My .22 shot "fair" with 14g but stepping up to the 16, 18g stuff it really started to shine.
That said I know it is apples to oranges but from 2000psi fill it is not shooting great groups until about 1700... then it is dead nuts down to 1200psi.
SO I am teathering it to a bottle with a 1600psi Regulator. (Sweet spot)
Next in accuracy is how you mount the gun... Forget the springer "Artillery Hold".. cinch up on it and hold it like a Powder Burner.
Also I would not have waited until now to clean the barrel. That is one of the FIRST things an airgun should receive.
Check the crown, a light hone with a tapered sanding roll may be needed.
Now, since you are new and we do not know your history... Are you familiar with the B.R.A.S.S. method of shooting?
BRASS is an acronym taught to shooters to remember how to calm themselves during a shot. B.R.A.S.S. stands for...
Breath
Relax
Aim
Slack (trigger)
Squeeze.
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Now, since you are new and we do not know your history... Are you familiar with the B.R.A.S.S. method of shooting?
BRASS is an acronym taught to shooters to remember how to calm themselves during a shot. B.R.A.S.S. stands for...
Breath
Relax
Aim
Slack (trigger)
Squeeze.
Learned about that on GTA in the last week or so.
I used to hunt groundhogs in the 70's on the family farm with a scoped 22 Magnum, but not much shooting since 1985 until this year. So ... some previous experience with breathing and trigger control. Probably shot 2000+ rounds in the last 8 months or so from my Hammerli 850. Now working with my HW30S and this Maximus.
That Hammerli is so easy and simple to shoot accurately, it's like a little "plinker's luxury vacation" every time I pick it up. I'm doing the Maximus to get a little more power for some FT experimenting.
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Additional testing today.
I decided to pump up both the Discovery 22 and the Maximus 177.
40 yards, medium wind, 75% fill
1.26" CTC, Discovery .22 CPHP 14.3 gr.
0.90" CTC, Maximus .177, JSB 10.3 gr.
25 yards, medium wind, 75% fill
0.75" CTC, Discovery .22 CPHP 14.3 gr.
0.90" CTC, Maximus .177, JSB 10.3 gr.
The Discovery group grew 68% larger out to 40 yards, whereas the Maximus group stayed exactly the same; 25 or 40 yards.
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Good tests Marc.
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Looks like the Maxi held it's own pretty well.
Nice job Marc.
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So have you cleaned the barrel yet? Did you clean it when you got it? In a mph wind, I sure don't think that is too bad at 40yds.
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So have you cleaned the barrel yet? Did you clean it when you got it? In a mph wind, I sure don't think that is too bad at 40yds.
Not yet. I ordered a "patchworm" cleaning kit.
I think .9" at 40 yards is not too bad as well. Although, I see folks reporting better accuracy from their Maximus rifles (especially at 25 yards). I'm hopeful that a good cleaning and more break in will tighten this even more. I've ordered a tin of H&N Sniper mediums too. These shot well in an AEAC Maximus review I watched.
I'd like to shoot lead-free if I can. I've ordered some Predator GTO .22 pellets to test in my Discovery. We'll see where this goes. I'm sure a trigger upgrade will be happening too. I do like how the Maximus holds and handles, other than the short, stiff bolt for cocking. Mine is better after some break in.
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Marc, ... did you give it a thorough cleaning first?
I cleaned it today; accuracy a little disappointing.
The JSB 10.3 grain pellets that gave me a .9" CTC group the other day today gave me, after cleaning, a 1.6" group; both at 40 yards.
On the other hand, as a plinker, this Maximus is about as good as my Hammerli 850 but with a little more useful power so I can reset my Remington Field Target Crow at 25 yards which the Hammerli was not able to do.
I think the next step is to get the H&N Sniper Mediums and put some more pellets thru the rifle.
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Do you have any kind of Moderator, LDC, whatever on the end of the barrel?
My patterns were widening with the TKO so I removed it and patterns went back to great.
Then I put on a cosmetic one from Alchemy just for eye candy, patterns went bad again.
Now shooting it naked again and back to good groups.
Just curious.
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Do you have any kind of Moderator, LDC ... ?
Nope. I put one on my Hammerli 850 and it had no effect on accuracy. One way or another I will be keeping a Maximus. When I do, I will likely put on a TKO. I certainly hope I can get one set up without messing up my accuracy.
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TKO didn't bother my groups at all. Still 1/4"at 30 yards. I did destroy the internals in a TKO by accidentally double loading several times.
Its' so easy to double load sometimes. LOL!!!
If there is an accuracy issue, simply open it up slightly. Next size numbered drill bit usually does the trick. I do like to follow with a wooden dowel, split on the end to hold a strip of 320-400 sand paper. (Wet/Dry) to rid any possible swarf from the drill bit. ;)
Knife
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TKO didn't bother my groups at all. Still 1/4"at 30 yards. I did destroy the internals in a TKO by accidentally double loading several times.
Its' so easy to double load sometimes. LOL!!!
How could you tell the insides of the TKO were messed up? We've had a couple of double loads here.
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... my groups ... Still 1/4"at 30 yards.
22 or 177? Pellet?
I'm not getting anything like this accuracy but I'd sure like to.
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.22 18.1 JSB. this gun loves e'm! ;)
Crosman domes shoot anywhere from 1/2 to 3/4" at the same distance, but with flyers. GRRRRR!!!
Knife
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I installed the Baker Airguns brass trigger on the Discovery. The trigger is much better! I'm quite happy with the improvement; much more pleasurable to shoot.
But the groups, are pretty much the same. Both old and new are about .6" CTC with GTO pellets. Actually, with the new trigger (and TKO), I had one flyer that stretched the 10-shot group to .9". I think that was my fault.
No change in tighter groups but much nicer to shoot.
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https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555)