GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: ackuric on August 10, 2017, 09:12:17 AM
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First, MANY thanks goes to Lee aka Vash, a member known for making the most compact prod stock! I now introduce to you its brother, the most compact marauder stock.
Weight in this config...4-4.5 lbs. (approx. 6 lbs with stock air tube) - Weight saved from original stock is just over 1lb. With titanium/aluminum guide rods the weight would be further reduced by about 4-5 oz's...bringing a stock rifle likely into the high 5 lb range.
OAL = 31" - 46" (plan on personally reducing to max 42")
Plan on making a removable LDC which will reduce OAL another 5" to 26.5" at its most compact state!
Only detail I need to iron out is the foregrip, which I have a few ideas but please feel free to chime in as yours are welcomed.
I plan on molding some kydex into a desirable shape that will sit over the stock gauge, but nothing in stone there.
The stock end cap is replaced with one that has guides for the rods. This system works beautifully and I am thrilled to be the first Marauder going down this path! Hope it all works out in the end!
(https://preview.ibb.co/dk9dma/20170809_174823.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eA1DKv)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fwz4ba/20170809_174846.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h79Rpv)
Thanks again Lee for your great craftsmanship on both this stock and my aluminum air tube!
-Matt
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I should add, you can reach Lee yourself either on these forums or by contacting him here at leeairpros@gmail.com - www.leeairpro.com (http://www.leeairpro.com)
I definitely recommend Lee for any custom machining work/concepts! He is a great guy to work with and is VERY insightful.
-Matt
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I love that! Well done
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Resemble a spear gun.
How's the balance in that set up?
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That's very nice, can't wait to hear how it shoots. Well done!
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Resemble a spear gun.
How's the balance in that set up?
Balance is amazing, haven't scoped or fully assembled + shot yet so can't say in entirety how it is...but I will say that from the little bit of handling I've done, the balance is more favored on the back end / butt stock by a small margin, especially once I scope it, the majority of the weight is in your grips/stance opposed to having a very front end heavy rifle. Its so light in this config, 40% lighter than stock! Its literally night and day difference in terms of balance/handling. I get no fatigue holding this rifle off hand opposed to the stock rifle...I'd fatigue within seconds and my aim would go all over if I were to try..
Some more persepctive. the bare stock tube + the bare stock alone weight combined 4.6 lbs, where as the rifle assembled in its current config is 4.5~ lbs... :o (custom stock + aluminum air tube)
It kind of does look like a spear gun doesn't it! Even more frightening! LOL...although any marauder that has gone tactical in the past has the same resemblance...this version is just a economical, compact alternative that turns a heavy rifle into a nice petite rifle that is much easier to carry / shoot off hand. All hammer settings are identical to stock and adjustments can be made without taking anything apart.
-Matt
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Very cool 8)
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Lots of work to finalize the product and get it working for me.
Today I drilled + tapped the rear screw hole for the prod trigger frame that goes into the end cap. I am working slow because I am a little nervous, so bare with my during the process of finalization. So slow I still have to drill/tap the forward screw hole, deburr the all the holes on the rear of the tube so I can remove/install my valve from there without having to mess with the regulator, and of course finish the hand guard / fore-grip. Once those few details are done, I will begin assembly and attempting to air this thing up! Hopefully if all goes well I will be able to put air into it on either Saturday or Sunday.
The method I used to find the prod trigger frames screw location to keep the sear in the proper location and retain near stock hammer throw was measure center of sear to center of the stock rear screw, then went center to center on the prods sear to rear screw, and subtracted the difference and made my new hole's center the distance of that number from the center of the original hole. Hope that makes sense!
I did not decide to go with a taller sear rather, I used a 1" inch tube wrapped in 400 grit sand paper which brought the OD to around 1.2" to sand down the grip frame itself with the sear/guts removed. I removed approximately .02-.03" worth of material so the prod frame sits FLUSH with the tube, which IMO is a better approach than the taller sear as the prod trigger frame does NOT cleanly sit flushto the 1.25" air tube on the marauder which I was not fond of...the method I used kills 2 birds with 1 stone if you will, by matching the prod trigger frames contour to the 1.25" OD of the air tube as well as increasing the distance the sear sits into the air tube by the recommended .03".
Kydex has been ordered, I will attempt to build a very light weight fore-grip / hand guard that both covers the gauge and provides the shooter with a good grip.
I really hope all works out on this project!
-Matt
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It's kinda crude, but what about a piece of foam pipe insulation, split in half and held onto the tube with strong double stick tape. Would only take a few minutes and be very light?
Steve
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(https://preview.ibb.co/jDqpuv/20170810_171103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ewTL1a)
Here is a pic with the grip installed. Nothing special just a better angle for presentation...this picture also shows the concept of using the cheek riser Vash/Lee provides as a fore-grip, it ideally would be lengthened from 3" to around 8" for the average hands comfort, as well as the depth would increase so it hides the pressure gauge. I will be in contact with Lee to possibly make me a mount or two for my custom fore-grip I'll be pursuing.
-Matt
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It's kinda crude, but what about a piece of foam pipe insulation, split in half and held onto the tube with strong double stick tape. Would only take a few minutes and be very light?
Steve
I honestly like that idea. I've thought of even using a pool noodle cut in half! LOL I would prefer to have some type of mount though opposed to double sided tape, even if the pool noodle or foam pipe insulation double sided tapes to the mount then the mount can screw in on a clamp/mount/bracket.
I want a very light K.I.S.S solution as I feel its paramount in the whole idea. So keep the ideas coming!
Kydex is VERY light, the foregrip would end up weighing around 72 grams or just over 2 ounces if it works out, I just have to test my molding skills! At least I got 4 sheets 8" x 12" so I have 4 attempts! :)
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Sorry to be so pic happy guys, I just have to keep doing my part in giving Lee/Vash his due credit! Huge difference especially for those that want a lot of potential power in a small package! I hope he can keep finding new rifles to adapt this concept to as I feel its brilliant.
Here is a pic showing the difference in length from stock. Sorry don't have 2 barrels so I had to just line up the air tubes, your imagination should do the rest of the work :)
(https://preview.ibb.co/h4bZSF/20170810_172537.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fsRCEv)
-Matt
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It's kinda crude, but what about a piece of foam pipe insulation, split in half and held onto the tube with strong double stick tape. Would only take a few minutes and be very light?
Steve
I honestly like that idea. I've thought of even using a pool noodle cut in half! LOL I would prefer to have some type of mount though opposed to double sided tape, even if the pool noodle or foam pipe insulation double sided tapes to the mount then the mount can screw in on a clamp/mount/bracket.
I want a very light K.I.S.S solution as I feel its paramount in the whole idea. So keep the ideas coming!
Kydex is VERY light, the foregrip would end up weighing around 72 grams or just over 2 ounces if it works out, I just have to test my molding skills! At least I got 4 sheets 8" x 12" so I have 4 attempts! :)
What about something like this, with a little work you can make it work, then you can use a bipod or forearm grip.
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It's kinda crude, but what about a piece of foam pipe insulation, split in half and held onto the tube with strong double stick tape. Would only take a few minutes and be very light?
Steve
I honestly like that idea. I've thought of even using a pool noodle cut in half! LOL I would prefer to have some type of mount though opposed to double sided tape, even if the pool noodle or foam pipe insulation double sided tapes to the mount then the mount can screw in on a clamp/mount/bracket.
I want a very light K.I.S.S solution as I feel its paramount in the whole idea. So keep the ideas coming!
Kydex is VERY light, the foregrip would end up weighing around 72 grams or just over 2 ounces if it works out, I just have to test my molding skills! At least I got 4 sheets 8" x 12" so I have 4 attempts! :)
What about something like this, with a little work you can make it work, then you can use a bipod or forearm grip.
That is actually quite sweet... I could see possibly using these! Thanks for the idea!
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First, MANY thanks goes to Lee aka Vash, a member known for making the most compact prod stock! I now introduce to you its brother, the most compact marauder stock.
Weight in this config...4-4.5 lbs. (approx. 6 lbs with stock air tube) - Weight saved from original stock is just over 1lb. With titanium/aluminum guide rods the weight would be further reduced by about 4-5 oz's...bringing a stock rifle likely into the high 5 lb range.
OAL = 31" - 46" (plan on personally reducing to max 42")
Plan on making a removable LDC which will reduce OAL another 5" to 26.5" at its most compact state!
Only detail I need to iron out is the foregrip, which I have a few ideas but please feel free to chime in as yours are welcomed.
I plan on molding some kydex into a desirable shape that will sit over the stock gauge, but nothing in stone there.
The stock end cap is replaced with one that has guides for the rods. This system works beautifully and I am thrilled to be the first Marauder going down this path! Hope it all works out in the end!
(https://preview.ibb.co/dk9dma/20170809_174823.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eA1DKv)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fwz4ba/20170809_174846.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h79Rpv)
Thanks again Lee for your great craftsmanship on both this stock and my aluminum air tube!
-Matt
Thank you Matt! I am happy I could be apart of your project. I enjoyed the challenge and the Most Compact Marauder Stock is a great addition to complement the Prod and 2400 offerings.
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Matt,
Sweet looking Alum Mrod buddy! Nice and light too.
Way to go Lee, nice work again my friend!
check out Tim Hill, he has a nice picatinny mount for the Mrods.
https://hillairgun.com/products/barrel-band-with-integrated-rail-for-the-benjamin-marauder-rifle/
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Matt,
Sweet looking Alum Mrod buddy! Nice and light too.
Way to go Lee, nice work again my friend!
check out Tim Hill, he has a nice picatinny mount for the Mrods.
https://hillairgun.com/products/barrel-band-with-integrated-rail-for-the-benjamin-marauder-rifle/ (https://hillairgun.com/products/barrel-band-with-integrated-rail-for-the-benjamin-marauder-rifle/)
I like that idea a lot for a potential bipod. I would likely just retrofit a sling stud on the stock one myself for bipod. Cost is just 5-6$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uncle-Mikes-1-4-SLING-SWIVEL-STUD-for-MOSSBERG-500-/311853876894?epid=685146285&hash=item489bf0869e:g:shIAAOSwB09YDZJc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uncle-Mikes-1-4-SLING-SWIVEL-STUD-for-MOSSBERG-500-/311853876894?epid=685146285&hash=item489bf0869e:g:shIAAOSwB09YDZJc)
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Another day, another small step. Started deburring the rear of the tube so I can slide the valve in and out from there easily. Will be done with that tonight, I like the valve to be able to slide in and out of the rear with ease so I don't have to remove the regulator if/when I mess with the valve.
Got the gun fully set up with valve/hammer/action all together and tested the cycling to make sure sear engagement was fine, and all is well!
Got the air tube wrapped in carbon fiber vinyl for now. I think it looks really good.
(https://preview.ibb.co/i1fGra/20170811_183454.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gDenxF)
Starting to look like a rifle that fits in between a p-rod and the m-rod like many desire, well it's what I desired and this is very close to the vision I had, can't thank Lee enough for producing such great work! Love the compact stock design!
I may end up making a butt plate out of carbon fiber or ask Lee to, to save even more weight and make for a really good look, imo. We'll see!
-Matt
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That looks great with the air tubed wrapped and blacked!
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Your link to leeair pro is missing something, it does not work.
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Your link to leeair pro is missing something, it does not work.
^^THIS
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Your link to leeair pro is missing something, it does not work.
That was just what was on his business card, his email should work or PM @ Vash545 here on the forums.
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That looks great with the air tubed wrapped and blacked!
Thanks! I thought so too! Hate to cover up the aluminum but man it's starting to really come together!
-Matt
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Started assembling a bit more today to test some more on sear engagement and it doesn't seem I sanded down the grip far enough for it to be 100% proper. I am not happy with the engagement so I have contacted lloyd in hopes he has a taller sear still available that I can grab. Safety is always first when it comes to our rifles and I don't want this build to go south with any mis-fires!
I am still happy I sanded the frame down to match the tubes contour so it sits flush.
-Matt
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I'm going to send Lee a PM, but my idea is this:
a small "stock" or chassis that has an integrated trigger guard, uses an AR15 style grip (no beavertail), and uses an Evanix Sniper stock- similar to the above stock with two rods and a butt plate. I also have an EBR style stock as well. Both use the same overall idea: two rods, an adjustable cheek piece and a buttplate.
I'm going to cross my fingers and hope there's a favorable and affordable reply. This would be an awesome addition to my Brod build.
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I'm going to send Lee a PM, but my idea is this:
a small "stock" or chassis that has an integrated trigger guard, uses an AR15 style grip (no beavertail), and uses an Evanix Sniper stock- similar to the above stock with two rods and a butt plate. I also have an EBR style stock as well. Both use the same overall idea: two rods, an adjustable cheek piece and a buttplate.
I'm going to cross my fingers and hope there's a favorable and affordable reply. This would be an awesome addition to my Brod build.
Let me know how that works out! It sounds expensive but I hope it's not!
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I may sand down the grip frame more to sit the sear in the tube better but as it stands I'll be waiting for the solution to that be it a taller sear or sanding down further.
I really wish someone would come out with a fill adapter that was like this for the marauders...any volunteers?
http://laneregulators.com/shop/tuning-parts/pressure-gauges/air-arms-quick-fill-adapter-pressure-gauge (http://laneregulators.com/shop/tuning-parts/pressure-gauges/air-arms-quick-fill-adapter-pressure-gauge)
If I could slap something like that onto my build I would do the pipe foam insulation/pool noodle grip which imo would look/feel amazing...lol
-Matt
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Jim Gaska at WAR makes a part that replaces the fill nipple assembly. it works like a "T" fitting. you thread it into the tube and then put a captured filled nipple on one side and a gauge on the other. I got them for my regulated marauders so I have one gauge that reads tank pressure and one that reads reg pressure. once you have two gauges on a regulated rifle, you'll always want two gauges. give him a call. hope this helps. great work on your build.
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Looks much better I'm with the wrap.
How stiff if that stock? Flex at all?
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Looks much better I'm with the wrap.
How stiff if that stock? Flex at all?
No flex on the stock really even fully extended, unless you use a lot of force intentionally.
I plan on testing some 6061 aluminum for the rods to save weight, would take the 15" steel rods that are 10 oz to 10" aluminum rods that'll be around 3-4 oz, saving 6-7 oz's. If those don't work out well I'll have Lee shorten my 15" rods down to 10" for me which will still take weight down from 10 oz to around 7 oz. I am weighing just shy of 5 lbs without air, hoping in the end I weigh 4.5-5 lbs filled up and unscoped, plan on finding a 10-11 oz scope that is 3-9 x that will hopefully keep overall weight @ or around 6 lbs when scoped!
-Matt
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When I saw your pic in the aluminum air tube thread, I was wondering how you did the sear alignment and engagement on the Gen II. Thx for providing that. How far are the screw holes away from the original locations?
With the stock extended, where is the balance point on the gun?
I have used shotgun foregrips on Prods. They could work on a mrod, but would need to be sanded to get to the larger OD of the mrod tube. It can mount to the rear using the prod tab that goes on the front grip frame screw. The front mount would need to be fabricated.
I'm not sure if those rods would clear a shotgun grip though. I have seen what looks like a tight fitting black pvc with holes drilled in it, to give it that heat shield like look.
(http://citrusairguns.com/uploads/3/2/1/2/3212584/3555946_orig.jpg?328)
Just a couple of thoughts.
NOTE: Picture is from Citrus Airguns
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When I saw your pic in the aluminum air tube thread, I was wondering how you did the sear alignment and engagement on the Gen II. Thx for providing that. How far are the screw holes away from the original locations?
With the stock extended, where is the balance point on the gun?
I have used shotgun foregrips on Prods. They could work on a mrod, but would need to be sanded to get to the larger OD of the mrod tube. It can mount to the rear using the prod tab that goes on the front grip frame screw. The front mount would need to be fabricated.
I'm not sure if those rods would clear a shotgun grip though. I have seen what looks like a tight fitting black pvc with holes drilled in it, to give it that heat shield like look.
(http://citrusairguns.com/uploads/3/2/1/2/3212584/3555946_orig.jpg?328)
Just a couple of thoughts.
NOTE: Picture is from Citrus Airguns
The new trigger screw hole on the rear that goes into the end cap is around .2" difference from original on gen ll. IDK about the forward holes as I didn't have LEE tap those for the gen ll trigger as I have no intention on using it, but if I were I'd tap them myself. Sear engagement isn't 100% right yet, I'll try to sand the frame down tad more to achieve good engagement, if not I'll buy the taller sear from lloyd.
One benefit from going to the prod trigger is that it moves the trigger forward about 2-3" which slightly changes the balance of the rifle into your favor.
With the stock extended the balance point / center of balance is inches in front of the trigger if you were to try to balance the gun in your hand, basically right where I intend on a 6-8" hand guard is exactly where the balancing point is.
I could off hand shoot this rifle one handed if I wanted, albeit not VERY accurately but nonetheless, that is how much different the balance/weight is.
The pvc pipe might by a good idea, mine would sit much lower as I'd want to cover up the stock pressure gauge + plumbing.
-Matt
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Received my 10" aluminum 6061 rods today to replace Lee's SS rods which are AMAZING quality but on the heavy side. The SS rods weigh combined 10-11 oz's, where as these aluminum rods weigh combined 2.5 oz's. A HUGE 1/2 lb weight savings, making it even easier to achieve my goals of a sub 5 lb marauder!
Now I have to spend some time prepping and drilling/tapping the new rods to Lee's specs so it all works! Will update once that is done.
New stock will weigh a total of 8.5 oz down from 1 lb 1 oz.
-Matt
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Got the rods partially done for the stock. Test fitted and weighed in at 4.5 lbs fully assembled un-scoped without air. The only thing missing is a hand guard which won't weigh more than a few oz's, so really my sub 5 lb goal is being met with ease! I love the feel of this rifle in my hands now!
I am going to contact lloyd now about the taller sear, not sure if I should just continue sanding down the grip since I already started, I don't want the taller sear to cause issues since my frames sanded down. Will see what lloyd suggests!
-Matt
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Bit the bullet and just ordered a taller sear from Llyod. citrusairguns sells the prod frame ready for the marauder with a taller sear already installed for around 88$+16 shipping (104$ total), but I just bought the frame + grips from crossman for around 40$ shipped + lloyds taller sear for 22$, definitely a cheaper alternative. My grip frame does sit nice and flush with the tube so my efforts didn't go entirely unwarranted by sanding it down.
-Matt
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Nice job Matt! That sweet be a sweet rifle that is lite as Prod.
I have a Lloyd sear with Prod trigger assembly too do just for what you did with a standard Mrod tube. I just didn't find a AR stock adaptor for it.
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Nice job Matt! That sweet be a sweet rifle that is lite as Prod.
I have a Lloyd sear with Prod trigger assembly too do just for what you did with a standard Mrod tube. I just didn't find a AR stock adaptor for it.
Few places have those ar stock's available. I would contact Lee/Vash545 though he has some awesome ideas/designs for collapsible stocks! I wanted to be different and his design caught me eye so I figured why not!
-Matt
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Taller sear should be in today. Still haven't found a solution to a hand guard that covers the pressure gauge but have some ideas!
Pics with the shortened aluminum 6061 rods and cheek riser in proper position. So far so good! The current lengths in this config are 34.5" collapsed and 40.5" extended.
(https://preview.ibb.co/dMtuK5/20170819_071338.jpg) (https://ibb.co/moQkRk)
(https://image.ibb.co/hcxoe5/20170819_071321.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Got the Taller sear in from Lloyd today. Installed and everything works wonderfully. Can't thank Lloyd enough for having a very nice solution for those of us who choose to tinker! Great quality sear!
All I need to do is solve my hand guard issue. After this last attention to detail, I will be able to test the rifle in its new form! Very excited. If it weren't for my plenum extension that feeds off the pressure gauge this job would be much easier! I may just have to live without the extension for awhile if I want to really test this thing.
-Matt
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Looks great, Matt!
For about $130, a Hawke Vantage 4-12X40 scope would go very well with your set up.
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All I need to do is solve my hand guard issue. After this last attention to detail, I will be able to test the rifle in its new form! Very excited. If it weren't for my plenum extension that feeds off the pressure gauge this job would be much easier! I may just have to live without the extension for awhile if I want to really test this thing.
Why don't you just cut a section of cheap foam pipe insulation on there for now and see how that works.
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All I need to do is solve my hand guard issue. After this last attention to detail, I will be able to test the rifle in its new form! Very excited. If it weren't for my plenum extension that feeds off the pressure gauge this job would be much easier! I may just have to live without the extension for awhile if I want to really test this thing.
Why don't you just cut a section of cheap foam pipe insulation on there for now and see how that works.
it wouldn't be the ultimate solution I am looking for but if push comes to shove I may try it.
-Matt
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Maybe you could get some PCV tube that would slide over the tube, cut it to like 3" to 5" long in a C shape with a hole for the pressure gauge to be protected and secured using the front screw of Trigger assembly housing like a Prod forearm? Paint it black and it would look cool, protect the pressure gauge too.
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Maybe you could get some PCV tube that would slide over the tube, cut it to like 3" to 5" long in a C shape with a hole for the pressure gauge to be protected and secured using the front screw of Trigger assembly housing like a Prod forearm? Paint it black and it would look cool, protect the pressure gauge too.
Wouldn't work for the plumbing I am trying to cover. I am trying to mold some kydex into a shape that'll work.
Here is a pic of the plumbing I want to cover. it's not fully installed so it sticks out a bit more than usual but it still sticks out further than the stock pressure gauge so therefore I am trying to remedy that in a cosmetic functional way.
(https://image.ibb.co/nHR5SQ/20170820_132926.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
and a pic of the kydex taking shape. Still lots of work needed to be done on it and not sure it'll even work out the way I want!
(https://preview.ibb.co/cC2UnQ/20170820_132946.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kJ99nQ)
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Maybe you could get some PCV tube that would slide over the tube, cut it to like 3" to 5" long in a C shape with a hole for the pressure gauge to be protected and secured using the front screw of Trigger assembly housing like a Prod forearm? Paint it black and it would look cool, protect the pressure gauge too.
Wouldn't work for the plumbing I am trying to cover. I am trying to mold some kydex into a shape that'll work.
Here is a pic of the plumbing I want to cover. it's not fully installed so it sticks out a bit more than usual but it still sticks out further than the stock pressure gauge so therefore I am trying to remedy that in a cosmetic functional way.
(https://image.ibb.co/nHR5SQ/20170820_132926.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
and a pic of the kydex taking shape. Still lots of work needed to be done on it and not sure it'll even work out the way I want!
(https://preview.ibb.co/cC2UnQ/20170820_132946.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kJ99nQ)
What is the thing that looks like a CO2 cylinder coming off the middle of the gauge extension. What is it for.
Also what about a Prod forearm as it might work if you clearance it for that plumbing and sand the curve of it to fit the bigger tuber like you did with the trigger housing. It can be attached to the trigger frame with the front screw and the mounting tab that the prod uses and then just need a band around the tube to secure the front of the forearm.
Mike
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It is an auxiliary plenum. It adds about 25 cc's of extra available air at the regulated pressure of my choosing.
-Matt
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It is an auxiliary plenum. It adds about 25 cc's of extra available air at the regulated pressure of my choosing.
-Matt
Kind of thought it weas something like that and should help with the regged plenum volume. Kind if reminds me if the booster bottles that some newer cars use in the air intake plenums and the same idea was used on the mid 80s and up YZ series of Yamaha dirt bikes that used a added bottle off the side of the intake to give a boost of power when going from steady throttle to WOT quickly.
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Coming along nicely Matt!
The Prod fore end wouldn't work as issued. The Prod gauge screws directly into the gauge block, and sits almost flush to the bottom of the fore end. looking at that plumbing, you have to cut a hole clear thru the fore end for it and the gauge would stick well below the bottom of the fore end. Now, it might be a good start with an added Kydex bubble to enclose the plumbing, the gauge would still stick out quite a bit though...
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Sorry guys, I totally forgot about the gauge block adaptor for the pressure gauge on the Mrod, my idea wouldn't work in this case.
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I knew the gauge would stick out of the forearm but thought it may be a good start or something to use as a pattern of sorts. They are not very much from crosman.
Mike
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Why don't you try cutting off that section or a section of the OEM stock and filling in the cut end(s) if needed.
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Why don't you try cutting off that section or a section of the OEM stock and filling in the cut end(s) if needed.
Thought about that but don't want to ruin the OEM stock as I can swap back and forth if I like. The gauge stuck out of that stock with my plenum extension anyhow so I am just going to attempt to make my own...we'll see how it comes out!
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Its not the prettiest thing in the world but it provides the function I was looking for, a hand guard that covers the stock gauge work. I am not sold on this yet and may mold a few more designs but I am trying!
I might just have to toss the auxiliary plenum if I don't want such a bulky looking hand guard but it feels MUCH better than it looks so it's hard to say just yet...
(https://preview.ibb.co/mPA6K5/20170821_114739.jpg) (https://ibb.co/krZYz5)
-Matt
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Nice job, Matt!
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Hey thanks! So far this thing feels AMAZING to hold off hand especially with that hand guard. The way it sits in your hand actually puts the rifle in a perfect comfortable location for off hand shooting. Most hand guards are low profile for cosmetic reasons but for functionality having them run lower like mine does to cover the gauge work actually is beneficial. Atleast IMO. Most 'target' rifles for pros I notice have an extra hand guard that extends beyond the stock, this current hand guard basically provides that function.
The guard is 100% slip on at the moment and kind of snaps into place, I do plan on retaining it with a screw into where the prod stock would go by the trigger assembly but for now I am happy just to have it come along this far, even if the hand guard isn't complete!. I will try to tidy it up some but I am no professional at this so results will be uncertain!
Fully assembled it is weighing in at 5 lbs on the dot, but that is using my body weight + the rifle on the scale then subtracting my body weight from that number which isn't full proof, will get true weight once aired up. The only thing missing atm is air, and that is because my plenum connection requires loc-tite and I am letting that cure before test filling. The valve I have installed is new and questionable in regards to sealing as extensive work was done to it, so that'll be another issue I have to possibly confront, worse case I toss in a known good valve or wait for Travis to release his and Lloyd's new valve! I am just so anxious to shoot this thing though so hopefully in 24-48 hrs I can test fill and everything is leak free!
This build has been a long one, but in the end I am getting a rifle that fits well into a shooters hands and is completely unique and custom!
The only thing I'd change on the hand guard is a bit of shaping and transitioning between lines on the rifle but I am not a kydex artist nor do I currently have the patience as I just want to test this thing and cannot do it without a proper hand guard! As I stated I will likely mess around with different molds in the future and try to blend a perfect hand guard seamlessly with the rifle but that imo is a tall task!
-Matt
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Here is the hand guard taking more shape. Added a slight contour to it and smoothed all edges. Not sure what the next move on it is but I am thinking of calling it good, and either leaving it unwrapped or wrapping it again.
(https://preview.ibb.co/iycs95/20170821_155838.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jsdcbk)
This stuff is easy to mold/imprint so I am thinking of maybe adding some type of pattern to the sides so its not so bare and plain.
-Matt
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I liked it wrap
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WOW I am so impressed with what I just did. So I made a 5/8 hole and then pushed a 1 inch pipe through it to create a channel/wall that the gauge sits in perfectly. This snap on guard is now SOLID AS A ROCK! Zero wobble or movement and literally attached with 0 fasteners. Couldn't be prouder or happier.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hYGiz5/20170821_194249.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dBvyXQ)
Here I am holding the whole gun up just by the snap-on hand guard that I made! Literally 100% solid!!!
(https://preview.ibb.co/jgAnRk/20170821_194359.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eB65CQ)
Last steps will be to create end caps for each end of the guards and then wrap it in vinyl or paint it deeper black. Not sure which yet.
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I liked it wrap
Me too. I will likely either wrap it or paint it deeper black.
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I agree with your comments about it. I think if you had a wider piece it would allow you to do more rounding/contouring and you may like it more. Idk, you may be able to add a couple of elbows and extend the assembly more forward and then you could really do more contoured shapes and reduce the sharp angle more. Just trying to throw in my crazy thoughts on it as usual.
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I agree with your comments about it. I think if you had a wider piece it would allow you to do more rounding/contouring and you may like it more. Idk, you may be able to add a couple of elbows and extend the assembly more forward and then you could really do more contoured shapes and reduce the sharp angle more. Just trying to throw in my crazy thoughts on it as usual.
I am going for function over aesthetics. The hand guard is just there right where the balance of the rifle is and for proper grip. This rifle certainly isn't being made with cosmetics coming first. I have bigger pieces of kydex I can use but I cut the kydex down to its current size because I wanted it to be minimal, although I may always choose to tinker with another version and could have multiple snap on stocks, in fact I likely will!
So far this version I am 100% happy with, the feel is great and it feels sturdier than the OEM stock :)
I spent a good amount of time worrying about attaching a hand guard and having designed a snap on style that has zero movement makes me sleep well tonight!
-Matt
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Test filled rifle to 2300 psi (low on air) and letting it sit over night. I started on a new hand guard/stock that will hopefully be more appealing to the eye and blend with the rifle more. Taking Keith's advice and trying one a bit bigger. Hopefully I knock that out in the couple days. I really think the new stock design will be a keeper, even though the current one has grown on me and feels great. I'll be able to design as many as I want really and snap them on / off within seconds.
-Matt
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I like the extra plenum.
Here's just a thought I had looking at the lines of the gun.
What if the gauge was on the end of the extra plenum facing towards the muzzle.
It would still be functional but allow a lower profile cover to be designed.
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I like the extra plenum.
Here's just a thought I had looking at the lines of the gun.
What if the gauge was on the end of the extra plenum facing towards the muzzle.
It would still be functional but allow a lower profile cover to be designed.
I've thought about that but I can't safely drill/tap the gauge into the end of the plenum, at least not imo. What I could do it have maybe the gauge come out the side which would allow a lower profile. I just can't find a 3 way 1/8 npt connection that does what I want, only tee's that have one of the connections going downwards instead of sideways.
-Matt
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Where did you get the plenum? I could use something like that myself.
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Where did you get the plenum? I could use something like that myself.
Ebay. I used a 20 gram co2 cartridge that provides 25 cc more plenum space. It uses a 3/8 to 1/8 npt adapter fed off a tee that comes off the gauge block/plenum. Its basically like Lloyds double tube concept but for regulated rifles. I would love a 80-100 cc "double tube" made out of aluminum where the gauge then sticks in front of it like suggested but that would cost a few pretty pennies.
-Matt
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Welp the good news is in. Rifle held every bit of air over the course of about 20 hours! I am slacking a little bit on my new stock design but I am kind of mulling it over in my head before executing it. I have the shell shaped @ 12 inches in length and will likely use 10-11" of that. I will likely keep the same overall idea down just extend it up front and try to make it flow with the pistol grip out back.
-Matt
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Version two of the handguard/stock. Not 100% complete. Rifles assembled weight WITH air is currently 4.8 lbs! :)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jLr2U5/20170824_074915.jpg) (https://ibb.co/csKBNQ)
-Matt
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Version two of the handguard/stock. Not 100% complete. Rifles assembled weight WITH air is currently 4.8 lbs! :)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jLr2U5/20170824_074915.jpg) (https://ibb.co/csKBNQ)
-Matt
Ok, I like this version better. Nice job!
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Version two of the handguard/stock. Not 100% complete. Rifles assembled weight WITH air is currently 4.8 lbs! :)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jLr2U5/20170824_074915.jpg) (https://ibb.co/csKBNQ)
-Matt
Ok, I like this version better. Nice job!
Thanks, me too! I took Keith's advice and think it turned out well. I got 4 sheets of 12"x8" kydex for around 10-12$ so I could mock up several stock designs over the course of time! They also make cool infused kydex. Was thinking of ordering a sheet like this and making a stock out of it.
(https://image.ibb.co/dO8wNQ/5112_De_TFRq_L_SY445.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
We'll see!
-Matt
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Was thinking of ordering a sheet like this and making a stock out of it.
(https://image.ibb.co/dO8wNQ/5112_De_TFRq_L_SY445.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
We'll see!
-Matt
I've got the matching baseball hat, from Dick's last month :D
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Where did you get the plenum? I could use something like that myself.
Ebay. I used a 20 gram co2 cartridge that provides 25 cc more plenum space. It uses a 3/8 to 1/8 npt adapter fed off a tee that comes off the gauge block/plenum. Its basically like Lloyds double tube concept but for regulated rifles. I would love a 80-100 cc "double tube" made out of aluminum where the gauge then sticks in front of it like suggested but that would cost a few pretty pennies.
-Matt
Well you do have me looking at the idea. Thanks.
I may pick up a Daisy Avanti 888 CO2 cartridge and modify that.
Found them for $19.95 plus shipping.
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Where did you get the plenum? I could use something like that myself.
Ebay. I used a 20 gram co2 cartridge that provides 25 cc more plenum space. It uses a 3/8 to 1/8 npt adapter fed off a tee that comes off the gauge block/plenum. Its basically like Lloyds double tube concept but for regulated rifles. I would love a 80-100 cc "double tube" made out of aluminum where the gauge then sticks in front of it like suggested but that would cost a few pretty pennies.
-Matt
I use the threaded co2 cartridge, 16-20 gram cartridges fit just fine in the original stock.
Well you do have me looking at the idea. Thanks.
I may pick up a Daisy Avanti 888 CO2 cartridge and modify that.
Found them for $19.95 plus shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Innovations-20gram-Threaded-CO2-Cartridges-2-Pack-/182707430260?epid=1000024608&hash=item2a8a362374:g:auwAAOSwLKpZiK9k (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Innovations-20gram-Threaded-CO2-Cartridges-2-Pack-/182707430260?epid=1000024608&hash=item2a8a362374:g:auwAAOSwLKpZiK9k)
This is what I used. 19.80$ and free shipping.
-Matt
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https://www.amazon.com/Daisy-Avanti-ounce-refillable-cylinder/dp/B001BR50B0/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1503585832&sr=8-15&keywords=refillable+co2+cartridges (https://www.amazon.com/Daisy-Avanti-ounce-refillable-cylinder/dp/B001BR50B0/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1503585832&sr=8-15&keywords=refillable+co2+cartridges)
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Yes, that forearm does look better, but it's all your hard work that makes it so. Nice job and you have room to expand the plenum even more if you want to. ;)
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https://www.amazon.com/Daisy-Avanti-ounce-refillable-cylinder/dp/B001BR50B0/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1503585832&sr=8-15&keywords=refillable+co2+cartridges (https://www.amazon.com/Daisy-Avanti-ounce-refillable-cylinder/dp/B001BR50B0/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1503585832&sr=8-15&keywords=refillable+co2+cartridges)
Not sure how that will do with HPA and what kind of connection is that? I used the threaded co2 cartridges. The ones I use are definitely good enough for HPA.
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Yes, that forearm does look better, but it's all your hard work that makes it so. Nice job and you have room to expand the plenum even more if you want to. ;)
Thanks, I certainly could go with a bigger plenum! I've tossed around the idea of a 33 or a 42 gr co2 cartridge which would allow me to make 65-70 FPE but IMO 60 FPE is plenty for a regulated .25 cal! Unregulated this rifle would easily push 80+ FPE.
If I wanted gobs of power, I would make a slightly longer tube from titanium for 4,500 psi fills, regulate it at 2500 with 80-100 cc's of plenum, and call it good!
-Matt
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Not sure how that will do with HPA and what kind of connection is that? I used the threaded co2 cartridges. The ones I use are definitely good enough for HPA.
Not sure to be honest what it will do with HPA. The connections at each end would allow other fittings to be fabricated for my needs. I could also go with a tube from Hatsan. Kind of expensive but I know the rating on them.
The AT44 short tube is 180CC. The one for the Hatsan Pistol is 50CC. Both can take 2900PSI+
I do have an extra 180CC tube here.
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So I put a little trigger time in over the weekend. A few notes on this build so far...Prod trigger group has a LOT of drag sear, I immediately noticed a difference in my FPS using the same hammer / spring combo, easily a good 100 fps lost when compared to the mrod trigger group. I did a lot of custom work on my valve to reduce the requirement of hammer weight/spring rate and this kind of sets it back a bit...I don't think I will sleep well until I fix it somehow! I tried a really light sear spring but it's a bit too light and doesn't push the sear up during cocking, so I'll have to keep trying. I also removed material from the grip frame to allow it to sit more flush with the mrod tube, which likely makes the modified/taller sear sit a bit higher than normal in my build, I don't think it adversely effects the fps anymore than one that wasn't modified would though.
Prod trigger itself is of good quality, but next to a really fine tuned marauder trigger its no match. Stage 1 in very light, but stage 2 seems a little on the stiff side when compared to a marauder trigger set at a medium-light setting.
The rifle feels amazing to hold. The length of pull can be adjusted to perfectly suit your shooting position, being able to adjust that on the fly is invaluable imo! I use a lot more length of pull when I shoot prone than when I off hand.
I have a lot of modifications done which include a leather faced striker that help reduce shot noise. Being that the stock is attached to the end cap, and is metal compared to the oems plastic, a little metallic noise travels down the rods but I feel in time I will either remedy it or live with it as its minimal and not a huge down side. I think its mostly my ssg bolt coming back and smacking the adjuster on return, but for those with regular metal/plastic striker faces it would likely be more pronounced...I may try a set of delrin rods for the stock but I certainly feel those will flex some, probably just need a damper on my ssg bolt/adjuster...quite a few ways to skin this cat
My custom stock isn't complete but was good enough for some trigger time, and it feels great and does its job well!
I tried out some 19.91gr from H&N...and found that my gen ll modified bolt is turned down too much for these pellets, they were sticking half way into the barrel port, their so light weight that they remove a ton of material from the back of the pellet, its hollowed out very deep. I swapped my gen l bolt in which pushes them all the way by the OD of the skirt instead, and to my surprise my fps went down around 50 instead of up! Could of been a fluke but I just scratched my head and gave it more spring pre-load till I got fps back up.
Maybe having a pellet stick half way in the port is a good thing for fps, possibly more pressure build up prior to pellet really moving? Either way accuracy seemed to suffer a tad so I am not sure it's a fruitful thing to chase after, and very well could have been some fluke for me!
-Matt
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So I found a partial solution to my problem with the taller sear and my sanded down grip frame. I added a .015" gasket in between the tube and the grip frame to allow the .032" taller sear to not seat as deeply. I gained about 30 fps and my es tightened up considerably where as before it was a bit erratic.
The next still will be finding a slightly lighter sear spring to replace the stock one.
As soon as the SS Valve from A.R.T is available I'll be jumping on the opportunity to try one out. I currently have around 45 cc's of plenum and with the new valve I would likely see a few more cc's which would mean more power on tap!
-Matt
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Here's a before and after pic showing how much more forward the rifle is held now, you can see by the scope positions. Drastic difference! Still need to wrap the new hand guard in carbon fiber vinyl.
(https://image.ibb.co/ciYqda/20170612_162135.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fOmbJa/20170902_162421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hvMAda)
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Ran a brief string at 40-41 FPE with 25.4's. Results were pleasant @ 1.88~ FPE/CI. Gun is operating very efficiently and quietly and I think the slight bit of drag on the prod sear really eliminates any hammer bounce especially when coupled with a SSG.
I used a 10 lb spring with very little preload and a 42 gram hammer to obtain the 850~ fps average. I'd say the prod trigger group is still reducing the fps around 70~ but I really can't complain with the results its giving
My custom valve really is impressing me, during the down time I tweaked a few things by increasing my plenum passage holes, making a new TP that blends the oblong passages from the valve to the barrel as they are opposing, and then went back to a gen l style bolt just because it out performs my gen ll that is turned down.
-Matt
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Tossed in my 11.5 lb spring with the 42 gr hammer, and sent some 33.9gr's flying off at 870 FPS avg...8 shots from 2500~ down to 2100~ = 1.4 FPE/CI~
That gives me 24 fairly powerful shots! Very thrilled, I used to see more around 1.2~ FPE/CI around this power level so things are definitely looking good! I bet with slugs/heavier pellets this tune would really shine!
Next I'll set my tune up for the 52-54 fpe range I like for the 33.9 gr
-Matt
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Couldn't get under 860 fps on the 11.5 lb spring so I put the 10 lb spring in with some preload, not much was needed to hit 835 fps average with the 33.9gr... Results were great, @ 52.5 FPE I am currently at 1.5~ FPE/CI
-Matt
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I wanted to check out the range of power I have on just the 7.5 lb hammer spring along with a 42gr hammer after my few modifications.
Under max preload its looking to be around 47 FPE, and under no preload I am getting about 18 FPE. All from just 7.5 lbs of hammer spring!
The range on the 10 lb spring is around 30-60 FPE.
So the only two springs I need (and luckily have) are 7.5 / 10 to obtain all my tunes.
This valve is simply AMAZING, with just a custom poppet and mild port work...a modification that costs around 20$, anyone could get these results! I would love to test it unregulated and push out some 43 gr's @ 80-85 FPE but I personally don't have a need for that power out of this rifle, but at least I know she can do it!
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Where are the shot strings?? Or are you taking small samples and using fuzzy logic to fill in the blanks?? I for one would love to see some of those actual strings i.e. The 72 shot string at 2.2 efficiency or your 50ft lb tune.
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Where are the shot strings?? Or are you taking small samples and using fuzzy logic to fill in the blanks?? I for one would love to see some of those actual strings i.e. The 72 shot string at 2.2 efficiency or your 50ft lb tune.
Been a bit busy, still tinkering and testing, my strings were ran over 400-500 psi to compile accurate data, which I believe has been deemed acceptable for running strings by the community. I've run a full 16 shot 60 FPE string, I have run 32 shot strings @ 22 fpe, and currently the longest 53 fpe string I recorded was only 8 shots, but the air usage was incredibly low and I don't see why anyone would argue 32 shots @ 53 fpe being possible. 8 shots used 350 psi (2500>2150 @ 840 fps / 33.9 gr = 1.55 FPE/CI). I don't consider that tune better than the 40 shots @ 50...thats 2,000 fpe versus 1700.
I tend not to post big long strings as it has become too competitive on the forums as to who can run the longest or most efficient. I can actually do more than 72 shots @ 22 FPE, just tested this weekend how well the tune did OFF the regulator and I achieved an amazing bell curve that went from 710~ fps up to 730 fps and back down for another 20~ shots. Quite surprising being that I am regulated @ 2k psi and have ports of .212" that I can still have a bell curve at a low fps tune when coming off reg, I never expected it...I know full complete strings tickle some peoples fancy but I have been doing a lot of accuracy testing on a new pellet which is more important to me than using around 100~ pellets to run a full string with my low power setting.
I tossed back in my 25 gram hammer, as my 42 gram hammer has ribs on it and was catching the prod sear during the cycle and you could feel it while cocking.
Now its much more butter smooth and my fps with the 19.91 gr went from 730 (last settings on 42 gr hammer) to 670 on the 25 gr hammer (no change in spring/preload). My fps should of dropped a bunch more if it was solely a hammer weight change, but the non-ribbed 25 gr hammer is causing much less friction and performing very well. Much quieter too I might add! I guessed 400-500 fps when I dry fired the rifle, took it over the chrony and it did 668 to my surprise...
My modified stock valve is not that special, sure it cracks open VERY easily and is VERY tune-able with just hammer spring, it operates quietly and efficiently...but I am pretty sure it wouldn't do nearly as well as it does without my plenum extension which reduces pressure drop across the valve during the shot cycle....which I believe your SS valve does better on its own without the extra volume to assist, I hope I have one of your valves in hand some day soon, until then I am just doing my best to keep myself entertained with my own valve.
-Matt
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Here's a before and after pic showing how much more forward the rifle is held now, you can see by the scope positions. Drastic difference! Still need to wrap the new hand guard in carbon fiber vinyl.
(https://image.ibb.co/ciYqda/20170612_162135.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fOmbJa/20170902_162421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hvMAda)
I was wondering why the scope is mounted that far back on the syn stocked gun??? With the typical scope relief of 3.5", it would seem it is way too far back. On all my Gen II Mrods, the scope eyepiece ends before the steep rise to the to the adj comb. I figure there has to be a reason, just not obvious to me.
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Where are the shot strings?? Or are you taking small samples and using fuzzy logic to fill in the blanks?? I for one would love to see some of those actual strings i.e. The 72 shot string at 2.2 efficiency or your 50ft lb tune.
Been a bit busy, still tinkering and testing, my strings were ran over 400-500 psi to compile accurate data, which I believe has been deemed acceptable for running strings by the community. I've run a full 16 shot 60 FPE string, I have run 32 shot strings @ 22 fpe, and currently the longest 53 fpe string I recorded was only 8 shots, but the air usage was incredibly low and I don't see why anyone would argue 32 shots @ 53 fpe being possible. 8 shots used 350 psi (2500>2150 @ 840 fps / 33.9 gr = 1.55 FPE/CI). I don't consider that tune better than the 40 shots @ 50...thats 2,000 fpe versus 1700.
I tend not to post big long strings as it has become too competitive on the forums as to who can run the longest or most efficient. I can actually do more than 72 shots @ 22 FPE, just tested this weekend how well the tune did OFF the regulator and I achieved an amazing bell curve that went from 710~ fps up to 730 fps and back down for another 20~ shots. Quite surprising being that I am regulated @ 2k psi and have ports of .212" that I can still have a bell curve at a low fps tune when coming off reg, I never expected it...I know full complete strings tickle some peoples fancy but I have been doing a lot of accuracy testing on a new pellet which is more important to me than using around 100~ pellets to run a full string with my low power setting.
I tossed back in my 25 gram hammer, as my 42 gram hammer has ribs on it and was catching the prod sear during the cycle and you could feel it while cocking.
Now its much more butter smooth and my fps with the 19.91 gr went from 730 (last settings on 42 gr hammer) to 670 on the 25 gr hammer (no change in spring/preload). My fps should of dropped a bunch more if it was solely a hammer weight change, but the non-ribbed 25 gr hammer is causing much less friction and performing very well. Much quieter too I might add! I guessed 400-500 fps when I dry fired the rifle, took it over the chrony and it did 668 to my surprise...
My modified stock valve is not that special, sure it cracks open VERY easily and is VERY tune-able with just hammer spring, it operates quietly and efficiently...but I am pretty sure it wouldn't do nearly as well as it does without my plenum extension which reduces pressure drop across the valve during the shot cycle....which I believe your SS valve does better on its own without the extra volume to assist, I hope I have one of your valves in hand some day soon, until then I am just doing my best to keep myself entertained with my own valve.
-Matt
You might want to check your math. I ran those numbers through the Lloyd Sikes efficiency calculator and come up with 1.34 FPE/cu in. That's based on 215cc and with your extra plenum the efficiency would even be less. Not bad though and nothing to be shy about.
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Sorry man, but that foregrip sure is ugly,...I can think of several ways to make it look much, much nicer.
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You are quite the craftsman!
I just read through the thread and have a question about your C02 extension for the plenum space. As I understand it, C02 is normally somewhere around 700-1100psi. But regulator output is about twice that, triple that if the reg fails. Is there any concern with long-term fatigue or thread failure? I only ask because I have never seen a C02 cartridge used like this...of course, there is a lot I haven't seen....
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Ordered some carbon fiber kydex (not real CF) and made a new stock. Also ordered 8mm OD / 4mm ID carbon fiber shaft/tubing from China that SHOULD work for my rods. 3-4 week wait on that shipment unfortunately, and I am not sure how they will hold up to being a sliding rod but I spent 10$ to find out. I still need to cut/mold the new stock some but couldn't help but want to show it off! I really wish I could do the pistol grips with the same material!
(https://preview.ibb.co/bUpVtw/20170930_084918.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nQgM0b)
-Matt
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And here is the stock in its near final form! Very happy with the feel. This kydex stuff is amazing! Also my carbon fiber rods hit the States yesterday so I should have them within a week, very excited to try those out!
(https://preview.ibb.co/icWUow/20171001_160049.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ff3Lvb)
(https://image.ibb.co/hBq5Tw/20171001_155706.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Gotta agree with Pirate, that foregrip is blocky! I'm also skeptical of 1.2 efficiency at 60 fpe.
Other than the foregrip, gun looks good.
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Gotta agree with Pirate, that foregrip is blocky! I'm also skeptical of 1.2 efficiency at 60 fpe.
Other than the foregrip, gun looks good.
The foregrip is quite contoured in the current version. I wanted a nice flat bottom so the rifle can rest there easily. Its actually less blocky feeling than the stock OEM grip so by all means I am much happier :) My grip contours to the tube and leaves a .08" edge that is sanded down to more like .04"...where as the oem does not contour to the tube and has an edge of .240" prior to meeting with the tube which is very uncomfortable and not form fitting.
my grip:
(https://preview.ibb.co/fPWhab/20171001_190219.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hpOH8w)
oem grip:
(https://image.ibb.co/f9PDgG/20171001_191225.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
The 60 FPE @ 1.2 FPE/CI tune is at a raised reg pressure of 2250 FWIW. (higher set points allow for potentially higher efficiency) 3 main factors in efficiency, barrel volume, plenum volume, and pressure. There are many others but those are the primaries, and increase in any of them can potentially increase efficiency...
-Matt
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You're getting 16 shots at 60 fpe, from 3000 down to 2250 psi, on a less than 215 cc cylinder?
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You're getting 16 shots at 60 fpe, from 3000 down to 2250 psi, on a less than 215 cc cylinder?
Close but no.
3200 PSI > 2200 PSI with 187 CC's of HPA volume (approximate) / 45 cc plenum which is 62.5 PSI per shot.
This is by no means some amazing new grounds that can't be beat, toss in a 24" barrel with 80 cc of plenum see how it does for the same 1000 psi pressure range, likely much, much better.
-Matt
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You're getting 16 shots at 60 fpe, from 3000 down to 2250 psi, on a less than 215 cc cylinder?
Close but no.
3200 PSI > 2200 PSI with 187 CC's of HPA volume (approximate) / 45 cc plenum which is 62.5 PSI per shot.
This is by no means some amazing new grounds that can't be beat, toss in a 24" barrel with 80 cc of plenum see how it does for the same 1000 psi pressure range, likely much, much better.
-Matt
What valve work have you done? Mind giving me port measurements? Spring weight? Stroke and hammer settings? Valve spring rate?
How are you getting 232 cc of air out of a 215 cc tube?
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You're getting 16 shots at 60 fpe, from 3000 down to 2250 psi, on a less than 215 cc cylinder?
Close but no.
3200 PSI > 2200 PSI with 187 CC's of HPA volume (approximate) / 45 cc plenum which is 62.5 PSI per shot.
This is by no means some amazing new grounds that can't be beat, toss in a 24" barrel with 80 cc of plenum see how it does for the same 1000 psi pressure range, likely much, much better.
-Matt
What valve work have you done? Mind giving me port measurements? Spring weight? Stroke and hammer settings? Valve spring rate?
How are you getting 232 cc of air out of a 215 cc tube?
232 - 25 = 207. The 8 CC loss / difference is from swapping the stock gauge block with the lane regulator+plenum... I have a 25 cc plenum extension that is made from a 20 g co2 cartridge. Originally the lane regulator came with a 20 cc plenum, increasing my plenum from 20 to 45 cc's provides over half the pressure drop across the valve during the shot cycle which means better efficiency/higher power. Here is a pic of the modification I did to obtain 25 more cc's for plenum.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mU1z5b/20170519_184131_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hN6ABG)
All the info you requested in regards to my valve work is in my signature..
hammer stroke is roughly .1" more than stock.
.212" exit porting (seat moved forward to achieve)
.255" spring retainer cap entry hole
.25" poppet
.04" valve stem
.2255" valve seat (seat moved forward to achieve)
.23" valve throat
5lb hammer spring
42 gram hammer (have a 25gr one I use as well)
7.5-11lb hammer spring used depending on my tune (11 lb spring at low preload hits 60 fpe with 42 gr hammer)
-Matt
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I sought out 4 months ago to attempt an aluminum air tube for the marauder, and as promised I delivered a finished product with the help of a forum members CNC skills. I have no need to fabricate information/ideas that are fantasy and not reality.
I sought out 6 months ago to attempt to reduce cocking force and make a valve that is easier to open than stock, I achieved that, and that number is simple. Here is how it works....
.34 OD / 3k PSI you see 272 lbs of force against the poppet, which causes it to decompress more on the seat which means its harder to unseat as well
.25 OD / 3k psi you see 147 lbs of force against poppet...which is a 45% drop in force holding the poppet closed, when coupled with less compression on the poppet during seating and an increased throw by reducing OAL length of poppet stem, you have a valve that is much easier to open than stock. I've provided all the details and information free for anyone to follow. Real life results were identical to what the math on paper says...
I did my valve mods for a whopping total of 10 cents as I have tested it with the stock poppet @ .25" and it does fine and is comparable to peek at these very low forces as it does not compress nearly the same @ 150~ lbs as it would at 300~...I tested peek, delrin and stock material in my valve and saw near 0 gains in fps from either material at these reduced forces. The peek poppet starts to leak at lower pressures, where as the stock poppet could be shot down to 500 psi if you wish. At 500 psi the pressure against a .25" poppet is only 29 lbs and that is including a 5 lb spring. Peek needs around 100~ lbs of force to seal well, from what I have learned...and would be better suited in valves with 150~+ lbs of force always against the poppet.
-Matt
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Got the carbon fiber rods in! Finally some real carbon fiber to put on this rifle! Carbon fiber machines very easily I was concerned it might not but no issues here, all done by hand. These rods came 8mm OD with 4mm ID which was perfect for me, I barely had to drill out any material to tap for a 10-32 screw.
I absolutely love this rifles look and feel, I plan on making a new cheek weld out of the same stuff my stock is made out of that sits maybe a bit higher but other than that this project is about wrapped up! (for now :D ) Oh and I plan on being able to fit 2 magazines under the cheek weld as you can see in the first pic (kinda) there is adequate space there for them, just need to fabricate something so they clip in. Pics also show how I recently glued a small bubble level on the rear of the air guns receiver, I love its placement as its easy to stay within scope eye relief to see if you're level prior to taking a shot.
These tubes saved 2.1 oz's and the rifle now weighs 4.68 lbs! (unscoped) :)
(https://image.ibb.co/iRqxvb/20171004_182628.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/fAKwow/20171004_182537.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nwAK8w/20171004_182638.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGso1G)
So many peoples ideas, thoughts and help has gone into making this rifle what it is today, and I can't give you guys enough thanks! I hope I inspire some half as much as others have inspired me!
-Matt
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So a marauder that starts off at 7.3 lbs has been brought down to 4.7 lbs by heavily modifying and customizing a stock, and using an aluminum air tube. Some might ask, can we take it further, how much more weight could be saved? I can only give a few examples as I am sure there are more avenues for reducing weight.
Prod Pistol frame = 100 grams. (modified with carbon fiber would be nearly a tenth the weight but also expensive, aluminum would reduce roughly 2 oz of weight)
My Aluminum butt stock 30~ grams (could be reduced with carbon fiber but only by about half, again quite expensive)
Toss out the plenum extension! (would reduce roughly 5 oz)
So maybe someone who does all the above + what I've done, could get a marauder down to around 4.2 lbs or so but I am not sure saving the next 8~ oz is worth it.
As you see its becoming hard pressed to save any weight, unless I can get a smooth twist x barrel liner that is supported and sleeved with carbon fiber, I don't think I'll be doing any more weight savings on this rifle, but the smooth twist x barrel liner idea certainly sounds yummy. I am unsure of what the weight savings would be but being the stock barrel is the next heaviest thing on the rifle, I'd imagine quite a bit of weight could be saved if this were viable.
-Matt
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You have certainly taken the mrod weight into a new "low" classification. :)
IMHO: At under 5lbs, the light weight becomes a very specialized gun. ie back packing deep into the woods. But, it looks like with the collapsible stock, it is still rather long for that, and will have to haul an air supply (pump or tank) for those kind of trips. Certainly, for just an all day hunt/hike, where you only need the air that you have in the gun, that would be much less fatiguing. I suspect that was what your target was for.
Now, a "standard" mrod at 6lb or just under would be very nice for general field carry. :)
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I'd enjoyed following your build, Matt.
Once again, great job in turning your vision to reality!
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You have certainly taken the mrod weight into a new "low" classification. :)
IMHO: At under 5lbs, the light weight becomes a very specialized gun. ie back packing deep into the woods. But, it looks like with the collapsible stock, it is still rather long for that, and will have to haul an air supply (pump or tank) for those kind of trips. Certainly, for just an all day hunt/hike, where you only need the air that you have in the gun, that would be much less fatiguing. I suspect that was what your target was for.
Now, a "standard" mrod at 6lb or just under would be very nice for general field carry. :)
Collapsed fully its at 35" in length currently, and will be 30" when I make my stock moderator/baffles removable. A bit long but with the right pack you can certainly hike with this thing, toss in a little buddy bottle and you could go all day. Even with 48 shots @ 40 fpe I think that is plenty of shooting for a day if you're targeting game/pests.
My main goal was to turn my marauder into an airgun I can shoot off hand at a reasonable distance without fatiguing and having my sights wander within seconds. The way the marauder comes stock its just about only good for rested shooting, where as now I feel very comfortable in various sitting / standing positions with it. Also makes it easier to maneuver around in my truck and I can shoot right from my truck that much easier now.
Scoped with a 1.9 lb scope this thing still only weighs 6.8 lbs which is less than the marauder comes out of the box.
-Matt
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Fantastic results, Matt.
It hits a sweet spot, I think. Any lighter and stability might become an issue unless you have super-steady hands. I find anything under 4 pounds has to be bagged to maintain good accuracy unless I have both a vertical and horizontal bracing (knee plus tree when I hunt with my PP700 pistol).
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I'd enjoyed following your build, Matt.
Once again, great job in turning your vision to reality!
Thanks Dinh, I have had a lot of fun, nothing beats turning your vision/dreams into a reality.
-Matt
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Fantastic results, Matt.
It hits a sweet spot, I think. Any lighter and stability might become an issue unless you have super-steady hands. I find anything under 4 pounds has to be bagged to maintain good accuracy unless I have both a vertical and horizontal bracing (knee plus tree when I hunt with my PP700 pistol).
I certainly agree, you can actually stand and hold/brace this rifle with 1 hand and hit 2" spinners from 30 yards if you wanted to now. Try that with a stock marauder...I kid you not.
-Matt
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Fantastic results, Matt.
It hits a sweet spot, I think. Any lighter and stability might become an issue unless you have super-steady hands. I find anything under 4 pounds has to be bagged to maintain good accuracy unless I have both a vertical and horizontal bracing (knee plus tree when I hunt with my PP700 pistol).
I certainly agree, you can actually stand and hold/brace this rifle with 1 hand and hit 2" spinners from 30 yards if you wanted to now. Try that with a stock marauder...I kid you not.
-Matt
I agree with Peter, at some point it gets too light and starts to work against you. Also agree with you, that stock Mrod is hard to hold stable for any length of time, freehand. I did get a set of sticks, which I need to get more comfortable in using.
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Fantastic results, Matt.
It hits a sweet spot, I think. Any lighter and stability might become an issue unless you have super-steady hands. I find anything under 4 pounds has to be bagged to maintain good accuracy unless I have both a vertical and horizontal bracing (knee plus tree when I hunt with my PP700 pistol).
I certainly agree, you can actually stand and hold/brace this rifle with 1 hand and hit 2" spinners from 30 yards if you wanted to now. Try that with a stock marauder...I kid you not.
-Matt
Standing in 10m position makes hitting 2" spinners at 30 yards pretty effortless with a stock Mrod. Especially for younger shooters that are less shaky. My buddy and I would constantly challenge each other to 1/2" @ 25m offhand. But we were both amateur 10m shooters. Matt Dubber of AirArmsHuntingSA has a great video on the subject.
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Fantastic results, Matt.
It hits a sweet spot, I think. Any lighter and stability might become an issue unless you have super-steady hands. I find anything under 4 pounds has to be bagged to maintain good accuracy unless I have both a vertical and horizontal bracing (knee plus tree when I hunt with my PP700 pistol).
I certainly agree, you can actually stand and hold/brace this rifle with 1 hand and hit 2" spinners from 30 yards if you wanted to now. Try that with a stock marauder...I kid you not.
-Matt
Standing in 10m position makes hitting 2" spinners at 30 yards pretty effortless with a stock Mrod. Especially for younger shooters that are less shaky. My buddy and I would constantly challenge each other to 1/2" @ 25m offhand. But we were both amateur 10m shooters. Matt Dubber of AirArmsHuntingSA has a great video on the subject.
Do it with 1 hand on the stock marauder, while the other hand is tied behind your back. That is what I can currently do with my marauder versus when it was stock. That is all I am saying. It's an example of how light the front end of the rifle is and how easy it is to stablize, even with only 1 hand on the gun. Of course @ 10 meters when holding a rifle properly you can hit 2" spinners with even a daisy red rider! :P
-Matt
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Fantastic results, Matt.
It hits a sweet spot, I think. Any lighter and stability might become an issue unless you have super-steady hands. I find anything under 4 pounds has to be bagged to maintain good accuracy unless I have both a vertical and horizontal bracing (knee plus tree when I hunt with my PP700 pistol).
I certainly agree, you can actually stand and hold/brace this rifle with 1 hand and hit 2" spinners from 30 yards if you wanted to now. Try that with a stock marauder...I kid you not.
-Matt
I agree with Peter, at some point it gets too light and starts to work against you. Also agree with you, that stock Mrod is hard to hold stable for any length of time, freehand. I did get a set of sticks, which I need to get more comfortable in using.
I shot my stock marauder off sticks as well, was challenging and the weight was tough to manipulate and balance at all times, where as now it comes much more naturally and the rifle feels more like an extension of you versus a bulky 10lb + (scoped) item you're trying to balance. 6.8 lbs scoped isn't a bad weight imo and I feel one could go down as low as 5 lbs scoped and still not suffer any consequences of 'being too light'. I don't see any prod owners complaining about being too light in carbine mode which comes to 5-6 lbs as well.
-Matt
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Just ordered some new springs, 7.7 lbs/in @ 2" in total length. These are going to out perform my 1.75" 7.5# springs by a large margin.
So I tossed one in, and at minimum pre-load allowed in my rifle which is roughly .4" preload on spring, which makes it .4" + .75" = 1.15" total spring use which equates to 8.855 #'s of force. First shot over the chrony was 963 FPS with a 19.91 gr making 41 fpe effortlessly. With a JSB 25.4 it shot at 870 fps making 43 FPE! With more a tad more pre-load I simply just force the pellet out the barrel at the most I've been able to (1010~ fps (19.91gr)). All on LESS than stock spring!
So there ya have it! 7.7# of spring that can make 40-60 fpe in my rifle. I no longer need the 1.75" 11# spring to hit 60 fpe.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#9657k391/=19oombe (https://www.mcmaster.com/#9657k391/=19oombe)
-Matt
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looks like a marauder.
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looks like a marauder.
As long as it doesn't look like an FX then I am content! :D
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Sure, OK.
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That is awesome!!! Something tells me you could patent your design and make looks of $$$$$
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Next challenge, Matt, is fitting a carbon fiber bottle on that baby ;)
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Next challenge, Matt, is fitting a carbon fiber bottle on that baby ;)
Lol! I've considered it. I like the style of 1-1.5" air tube guns over the bottle guns though unfortunately and haven't been sold on any bottle gun other than maybe the condor style design where it is rear mounted into the butt stock and kind of hidden.
-Matt
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Looking good, Matt! 8) How well are the carbon fiber rods holding up? I haven't considered using them in my other stock designs but something effeminately worth testing for the weight savings.
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Not a desired look for me personally, but glad you and others are happy with it. I wouldn't want to worry about the reservoir or the vinyl wrap or the opened gap of the butt stock catching on stuff and would need a more stable cheek weld and stock. I prefer the ruggedness and stability of my stock Synrod and it is more useful for my heavy woods and weeds hunting style, but do understand that many do hunt in open areas and would not have those issues. I recently went on a 3 to 4 hour hunt with a friend to help a farmer out with a pest problem. I didn't find carrying my .25 Synrod a problem at all, but do understand people have different strengths and abilities that would benefit from a lighter Marauder, so kudos to you on that part. I was utilizing a sling and I don't use a bipod. All of my shots were off hand and lethal at all ranges. If my gun was 1-1.5lbs. lighter, that would be ok too, but wouldn't want to go much lighter. I find the weight of my Marauder very useful for stability and accuracy purposes. If you had kept the OEM stock then that would've been more to my liking provided you had the tube properly hydro tested and anodized. I wouldn't want to give up the awesome Marauder trigger either. The trigger is what makes the Marauder so user friendly and accurate in my view.
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That is awesome!!! Something tells me you could patent your design and make looks of $$$$$
Thanks. I provide all the details/information on my builds for anyone to replicate or do similarly freely. The rifle is a Frankenstein of a lot of ideas from members around different communities as well as a few of my own. I don't offer services or intend to though, just free ideas/concepts! :)
-Matt
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Not a desired look for me personally, but glad you and others are happy with it. I wouldn't want to worry about the reservoir or the vinyl wrap or the opened gap of the butt stock catching on stuff and would need a more stable cheek weld and stock. I prefer the ruggedness and stability of my stock Synrod and it is more useful for my heavy woods and weeds hunting style, but do understand that many do hunt in open areas and would not have those issues. I recently went on a 3 to 4 hour hunt with a friend to help a farmer out with a pest problem. I didn't find carrying my .25 Synrod a problem at all, but do understand people have different strengths and abilities that would benefit from a lighter Marauder, so kudos to you on that part. I was utilizing a sling and I don't use a bipod. All of my shots were off hand and lethal at all ranges. If my gun was 1-1.5lbs. lighter, that would be ok too, but wouldn't want to go much lighter. I find the weight of my Marauder very useful for stability and accuracy purposes. If you had kept the OEM stock then that would've been more to my liking provided you had the tube properly hydro tested and anodized. I wouldn't want to give up the awesome Marauder trigger either. The trigger is what makes the Marauder so user friendly and accurate in my view.
You're certainly welcome to your views! This design/concept isn't for everyone. I am glad you are able to perform well off hand with the stock marauder, I know I and many others aren't! Kudos!
Anodizing won't protect the tube from any extreme failures or drops. It is not necessary and I prefer having the vinyl wrap to protect it, it doesn't scratch or blemish easily and I can replace it in a matter of minutes if necessary, have plenty of it.
The cheek weld grips very tight on the rods and is 100% stable, requires decent force to adjust, and everything is very study. You can hold the rifle by the butt stock so you don't have to worry about anything catching on it any more than the stock rifles "grip" which can cause the same interference.
I still have the OEM stock and trigger that I can easily swap between if I desire and still be at 5.8~ lbs overall which is still pretty awesome, but as you see I prefer the collapsible stock and custom fore grip I designed as everything feels much better for me, better balance and adjustable, while having a very unique custom look that is of its own :)
-Matt
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Looking good, Matt! 8) How well are the carbon fiber rods holding up? I haven't considered using them in my other stock designs but something effeminately worth testing for the weight savings.
Not bad, I actually think the only issue is the threading on the carbon fiber might not hold up well and can't be torqued down to much, I had to resort to lock-tite after lightly torquing. Maybe longer fasteners might help but I am thinking some steel inserts would aid the issue perfectly! They are SUPER stiff and rigid otherwise. They slide very well and so far aren't scratching up. I might have you work some magic on a set for me if you're up to the task on my steel insert idea! :P Let me know!
-Matt
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Looking good, Matt! 8) How well are the carbon fiber rods holding up? I haven't considered using them in my other stock designs but something effeminately worth testing for the weight savings.
Not bad, I actually think the only issue is the threading on the carbon fiber might not hold up well and can't be torqued down to much, I had to resort to lock-tite after lightly torquing. Maybe longer fasteners might help but I am thinking some steel inserts would aid the issue perfectly! They are SUPER stiff and rigid otherwise. They slide very well and so far aren't scratching up. I might have you work some magic on a set for me if you're up to the task on my steel insert idea! :P Let me know!
-Matt
I was just going to say try some steel inserts but that thought already crossed your mind. I am always up for doing custom work for others. ( I am currently converting a Marauder .25 Cal barrel to fit into a Mrod Air P-12 for anther member).
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Looking good, Matt! 8) How well are the carbon fiber rods holding up? I haven't considered using them in my other stock designs but something effeminately worth testing for the weight savings.
Not bad, I actually think the only issue is the threading on the carbon fiber might not hold up well and can't be torqued down to much, I had to resort to lock-tite after lightly torquing. Maybe longer fasteners might help but I am thinking some steel inserts would aid the issue perfectly! They are SUPER stiff and rigid otherwise. They slide very well and so far aren't scratching up. I might have you work some magic on a set for me if you're up to the task on my steel insert idea! :P Let me know!
-Matt
I was just going to say try some steel inserts but that thought already crossed your mind. I am always up for doing custom work for others. ( I am currently converting a Marauder .25 Cal barrel to fit into a Mrod Air P-12 for anther member).
Awesome! I will likely try longer fasteners with just lock-tite and as a last resort steel inserts if I need. I'll be in contact!
-Matt
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Went from 1/2" screws that go into the rods to 1" and was able to torque them down much better and believe they will hold up the Carbon Fiber. I used lock-tite just in case. I just have 2 Length Of Pull settings currently which are 14" and 12.5" on these rods. 14" for prone and 12.5" for my other positions I shoot.
Also removing the butt stock is a push of the button and with the butt stock completely off the rifles length is only 26.7" which I plan on making a custom back pack I can carry this deep into the mountains with. 26.7" isn't a far cry from the prods 18" length. The only real differences are length of barrel + air tube which is roughly 7.5" of the 8.7" total difference!
(https://preview.ibb.co/msP51G/20171008_173711.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dQsEvb)
-Matt