GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Hatsan Airguns => Topic started by: jwlrymkr on August 08, 2017, 08:03:55 PM
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I received my awesome hatsan 95 vortex qe in .22 calibur today and I love it. However, it is dieseling, which I understand is normal until it is broken in, but the cocking weight is CRAZY! It feels very gritty and so heavy. It's not anywhere near 40-50 lbs cocking pressure. It's more like 70 lbs to cock this thing. Is this normal until it is broken in? I'm not a small guy and I'm in pretty good shape. Just wondering if I need to lube or check anything for binding? I'm hoping it get's easier as time goes on.
Great forum. Thanks in advance.
Ken
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I bet the barrel pivot bolt is too tight! Is it just as hard to close after cocking as it is to cock? :-\
It is a weird 2 part bolt. There are video's around that tell you which side to undo first.
The barrel pivot tension should be loose enough that after cocking, the barrel should close with minimal force. Or as others might say, just enough force to remain in whatever position you put it in.
Hope this helps,
Yogi
PS Welcome Ken to GTA! 8)
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I bet the barrel pivot bolt is too tight! Is it just as hard to close after cocking as it is to cock? :-\
It is a weird 2 part bolt. There are video's around that tell you which side to undo first.
The barrel pivot tension should be loose enough that after cocking, the barrel should close with minimal force. Or as others might say, just enough force to remain in whatever position you put it in.
Hope this helps,
Yogi
PS Welcome Ken to GTA! 8)
I think it may be This also. ^
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It is hard to close. I wouldn't say as hard to close as to cock, but it really feels gritty. Like it has sandpaper or metal on metal somewhere. It makes a weird squeaking sound when cocking. I'll check the videos. Thanks Yogi.
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Metal on metal is likely no lube in the cocking slot and you're hearing the end of the cocking arm rubbing in the slot on the bottom of the piston. The gritty feeling part is likely little or no lube on the barrel forks.
Both are easy fixes and require no more than taking the rifle out of the stock. Here's one of the Youtube vids on removing the stock to help you out as there's a very small lock screw in the middle of the front stock screw that requires being very careful while removing to avoid stripping it. As far as lubes, I use Air Rifle Headquarters (aka ARH moly paste) for both but the Air Venturi stuff will also work, it' just more expensive than the ARH.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCBcZRRGK_c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCBcZRRGK_c)
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251484/42989.htm (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251484/42989.htm)
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-moly-metal-to-metal-paste-1-oz?a=3498 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-moly-metal-to-metal-paste-1-oz?a=3498)
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I shot a friend's 95 Vortex, and his was smooth as butter. The force required to cock it was more in line with one of my Gamo gas piston rifles. I have a 95, but it's a springer and it does require a good bit of force to break the barrel, but even cocking it does not require an extreme amount of force. Sounds to me like a combination of a too tight pivot screw and a need for a good lubing.
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Thanks for all the helpful info guys. This is the friendliest forum I have ever been on. Much appreciated.
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Thanks for all the helpful info guys. This is the friendliest forum I have ever been on. Much appreciated.
Ken - Your post is timely and I have my 95 Vortext QE apart this week doing some minor tuning and installing a new seal.
The folks that replied back are correct and from what I can tell, the pivot point on my new 95 Vortex QE break barrel is very stiff even without the gas ram and piston in it. Lol.
So, the first question that I am hoping others can help with is:
1. What is the best way to free it up a bit and make it smooth?
SInce mine is apart, I plan to take the followng approach so that the break is smooth without creating any endplay that would affect accuracy and consistency:
1. Just Lubricate it with Moly and work it a few minutes on the bench without the gas ram and piston installed. It should as a smooth as new break barrel powder burner shotgun. It can have a little resistance b/c it is new and not broken in, but There should be no impingement.
2. If there is impingement, I will try and back the bolt out one or two indents.
3. Another option is to lightly polish the bolt with a buffing wheel and mother's mag or, light polishing paste. This works wonders on about everthing I use it for, like triggers and actions. The key is not to polish it too much or it may create undesirable tolerances.
That is my two sense and I will post the results of what works for the gun I have.
Perhaps those that have done this with success can elaborate more on what worked for them.
Best Regards,
Fletcher
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My problem is not so much the pivoting of the barrel as the lock-up pin. I literally have to "break" it over my knee to open the breach to load a pellet, and have to "slam" the barrel close to lock it position. If I could figure out how to lighten that pin and still hold the barrel secure on the closed position, I'd be a happy camper.
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My problem is not so much the pivoting of the barrel as the lock-up pin. I literally have to "break" it over my knee to open the breach to load a pellet, and have to "slam" the barrel close to lock it position. If I could figure out how to lighten that pin and still hold the barrel secure on the closed position, I'd be a happy camper.
Mine has the same issue as well. Just oiling did not help.
Here is a Mod 95 QE (Spring) parts diagram that we can use as a talking point: https://www.pescaeciashop.com.br/images/pdfprodutos/Hatsan/5779.pdf (https://www.pescaeciashop.com.br/images/pdfprodutos/Hatsan/5779.pdf)
Please see the following parts:
- Part 829 - Pin
- Part 806 - Locking Spring
- Part 807 - Locking Tab
I read recently that one possible solution to this is to remove the Locking Tab and debur it, and then debur and lighly polish the walls of the hole that this and the spring fit into. It may have been on a diff gun, but in any event it may work. In any event, I do not think that the design engineer at Hatsan intended for burs and out of spec tolerances as part of the break barrel action. Imho - Unfortunately, many manufacture process do not afford secondary machine work to resolve problems like this.
I am no expert at this, but I think in order to remove the Tab and Spring, one would need to use a C Clamp and compress the spring, then use the right size punch to remove remove the pin. Then, release the tension on the spring and remove the Tab and Spring. I would use suitable safety gear and also a piece of neoprene or sturdy shop towel to make sure nothing got scratched or marred on the parts and barrel. Then dry-fit and hone until I got the right feel. Then lubricate and reassemble.....
This way, you are not lightening the spring or removing material that marries to the receiver.
Has anyone else resolved this issue?
Thank you,
Fletcher
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Ok, I pulled the locking pin out using a C clamp and 1/8 inch punch and that went smooth.
So, below you see the Locking Spring, Tab, Pin and Barrel.
The bottom photo shows me dry fitting the Tab back into the pocket in the barrel and sure enough the pocket is very very rough and it seems was little secondary machining or polishing.
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_5265.jpg)
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_5266.jpg)
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_5267.jpg)
So, that is what I will do and very lightly at that.
Best Regards,
Fletcher
PS - It is a wonder then the spring and pin are under load that the barrel will close at all b/c how rough it is....
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I've never had that issue as yet but for all the barrels I've had off, I polish that silver washer (not sure if there's one on the other side, (some guns come with 2, mine only seem to have one...lol) with 400 grit wet/dry along with the insides of the barrel forks and bottom and edges of the cocking arm to make sure there are no rough spots or burrs, then lube with moly paste before re-installing the barrel along with a little in the cocking slot on the piston. Makes for much smoother and quieter cocking when finished :)
Thanks for posting the pics and tools you used to do the job, I made notes for future reference if I ever need to myself.
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Thank you, Steve - I will check and polish those as well. Fletcher
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Here is a photo of the metal shavings and debris that was in the pocket when I disassembled it:
The q-tip is out of focus, but that the shinny stuff on the end are metal savings...
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_5271.jpg)
Probably, just cleaning it out and lubrication it would help, but I smoothed out the roughness using these:
1. 600 Grit around the end of a punch.
2. Polished with Mother mag, using the same punch and well worn 600 grit.
I took my time and made sure not to take too much off and also keep the pocket's shape:
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_5278.jpg)
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_5274.jpg)
Then, i lubricated the pocket with moly grease, and reassembled it.
I also lightly polished the receiver forks and barrel, greased them and put it back together.
Yes, it opens and closes extremely nice now.
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Next, I turned attention to the impingement between the cocking arm and slot it fits into the receiver:
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_5281.jpg)
There is noticeable binding when the cocking arm is 1/2 way down the slot:
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_5276.jpg)
This is due to a variance i the width of the slot of about 0.025.
Later this week, I will even the width of the slot up and polish both it, and the base of the cocking arm so that the action here is smooth over the entire cocking cycle.
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Ken -
I think these mods will make the gun a lot more enjoyable to shoot and I have only shot about 50 rounds through mine. I also think that a lot of this may break in on its own. Anyway, I just choose to do the work now rather than wait.
Hopefully, this will help you on yours!
Best Regards,
Fletcher
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Looks like you are doing a great job! :D
You can also polish the detent and or cut a coil off of the detent spring.
Let us know how it shoots when you have her back together.
-Y
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Hey thanks for all the great replies to this thread. I stripped the &^^& out of the screw assembly trying to get it loose (even after watching the video on how to get it out), so I had to order a new screw assembly. That was a nightmare in and of itself. They don't list that part on Hatsan's website, but ended up getting some help via Email and got the new part in yesterday. What a hunk of junk that screw is! :o
I ended up drilling out the small set screw and it freed up the other screws so I could get them out. I don't have time today, but I will disassemble things tomorrow and let you all know what I find.
Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.
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Ken,
How is this project going for you? I pulled mine apart, cleaned everything up real good and reassembled it using some pure silicone grease. It's still very hard to open and close the barrel past the retention bolt. I don't have tools to polish the inside of the guide hole, but the retention lock pin fits fairly loosely already, so I don't think that is the problem. Should I be using a dry lube instead of the silicone grease? This is getting frustrating...
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Cleaned and polished everything today, and I still can't open the thing to cock it without laying it across my lad and pounding the barrel with my fist! Closing is just about as bad. I even ground a good ⅛" off the spring. I really think the spring is too strong, the lock pin sticks out too far, or a combination of both. I'll be heading to Ace tomorrow too see what they have, hopefully I'll find a replacement spring that''s not as stiff as this one. Right now it takes a 800 lbs Gorilla to cock the thing!
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Sorry for the late reply, Paul. I discovered that I don't have the correct punches to take the gun down. I did get the stock off and I see some rust around the nylon bushing, but most everything else looks to be lubed well. I will get some punches and take it down further as soon as I can. I don't have the spring in mine, I have the gas piston.
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Ken,
I'm not having an issue with the spring piston portion of the gun, my issue is the spring loaded locking lug, for lack of the technical term. Yesterday I eplaced the spring with a lighter, shorter spring. That still did not seem to work. I have polished both sides of the wedge that holds the barrel closes, as well as the pin it locks against. I have also applied a silicone grease to all metal surfaces. The lug moves freely enough, but it is still impossible to open without actually laying across my lap and hitting the barrel with my fist. Which hurts, BTW... I feel the lug sticks out to far and that's causing it to not move out of the way of the pin when adequate pressure is applied to the top of the barrel. It's also difficult to close, but that has gotten a bit better. Asked on the design of the lug, I'm at a loss as to how I can keep it from sticking out too far and still keep enough spring tension on it to retain the pin that holds it in place.
Also, if you compress the lug with a c-clamp enough to take pressure off the pin, it will probably fall out with a little encouragement from an end of a paper clip. Thus my concern for not just shortening the spring enough to reduce the amount of the lug that sticks out. Without some tension on the lug, I'm afraid the retaining pin will fall out.
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Maybe your gas spring has too much pressure? Hatsan airguns straight from factory are very often overpowered and some people benefit from detuning. That gas spring has a option for pumping and releasing pressure maybe its worth to lower the pressure to see how it behave and find balance between reasonable cocking effort and energy produced.