| # FPS FT-LBS PF fpe 40 804 30.35 17 33 39 805 30.42 17.02 38 811 30.88 17.14 37 808 30.65 17.08 36 814 31.11 17.21 35 812 30.96 17.17 34 818 31.41 17.29 33 827 32.11 17.48 32 821 31.65 17.36 31 828 32.19 17.5 30 827 32.11 17.48 29 827 32.11 17.48 28 828 32.19 17.5 27 830 32.34 17.55 26 835 32.73 17.65 25 842 33.28 17.8 24 839 33.05 17.74 23 842 33.28 17.8 22 849 33.84 17.95 21 852 34.08 18.01 20 852 34.08 18.01 19 853 34.16 18.03 18 861 34.8 18.2 17 855 34.32 18.07 16 868 35.37 18.35 15 861 34.8 18.2 14 859 34.64 18.16 13 862 34.88 18.22 12 866 35.21 18.31 11 862 34.88 18.22 10 869 35.45 18.37 9 877 36.11 18.54 8 877 36.11 18.54 7 881 36.44 18.62 6 880 36.36 18.6 5 881 36.44 18.62 4 ERROR 3 3 865 35.13 18.29 2 870 35.54 18.39 1 870 35.54 18.39 Avg StdDev Min Max Spread 845.8 23.9 804 881 77 |
| # FPS FT-LBS PF fpe 40 849 29.02 15.39 31.766 39 850 29.09 15.41 38 852 29.23 15.45 37 852 29.23 15.45 36 859 29.71 15.57 35 859 29.71 15.57 34 860 29.78 15.59 33 867 30.27 15.72 32 866 30.2 15.7 31 868 30.34 15.74 30 874 30.76 15.85 29 868 30.34 15.74 28 873 30.69 15.83 27 874 30.76 15.85 26 878 31.04 15.92 25 880 31.18 15.95 24 869 30.41 15.75 23 891 31.96 16.15 22 891 31.96 16.15 21 891 31.96 16.15 20 897 32.4 16.26 19 901 32.69 16.34 18 898 32.47 16.28 17 901 32.69 16.34 16 905 32.98 16.41 15 906 33.05 16.43 14 909 33.27 16.48 13 914 33.64 16.57 12 915 33.71 16.59 11 912 33.49 16.53 10 903 32.83 16.37 9 915 33.71 16.59 8 910 33.34 16.5 7 904 32.9 16.39 6 916 33.78 16.61 5 918 33.93 16.64 4 916 33.78 16.61 3 904 32.9 16.39 2 903 32.83 16.37 1 900 32.61 16.32 Avg StdDev Min Max Spread 888 22.2 849 918 69 |
| # FPS FT-LBS PF fpe 40 891 28.02 14.16 30.172 39 890 27.95 14.14 38 895 28.27 14.22 37 897 28.39 14.25 36 897 28.39 14.25 35 901 28.65 14.32 34 905 28.9 14.38 33 904 28.84 14.36 32 907 29.03 14.41 31 910 29.22 14.46 30 913 29.42 14.51 29 914 29.48 14.52 28 916 29.61 14.56 27 917 29.67 14.57 26 918 29.74 14.59 25 922 30 14.65 24 926 30.26 14.71 23 929 30.46 14.76 22 928 30.39 14.75 21 930 30.52 14.78 20 930 30.52 14.78 19 934 30.78 14.84 18 935 30.85 14.86 17 935 30.85 14.86 16 939 31.12 14.92 15 941 31.25 14.95 14 940 31.18 14.94 13 942 31.31 14.97 12 914 29.48 14.52 11 946 31.58 15.03 10 946 31.58 15.03 9 939 31.12 14.92 8 945 31.51 15.02 7 945 31.51 15.02 6 938 31.05 14.9 5 939 31.12 14.92 4 942 31.31 14.97 3 943 31.38 14.98 2 941 31.25 14.95 1 936 30.92 14.87 Avg StdDev Min Max Spread 924.5 17.5 890 946 56 |
You want the fps to peak in the middle of the shot string . So you would start out a little slower say like 920 peak in the middle at like 940 and the shots would slow down to about 920 again for example hope that helps
“Caldwell Premium Chronograph ”displays a column of data "PF" What does PF stand for?Still working on it
At what point does spread have a negative impact?spread or extreme spread is the difference between the fastest and the slowest shots divided by the average fps
Is a spread of 100fps over 40 shots ok?Its pants
What’s the significance of Standard Deviation?
What is extreme deviation?Its the same as Standard Deviation as described above
Try putting a 010 70d o ring under the tophat. Will allow for a higher fill. I did a 18" 25 and fill was 2700 down to 2200 at around 900 fps with jsb 34 gr.Hi dyotat,
How are the shims working? O ring instead of shim.
Try putting a 010 70d o ring under the tophat.
| # FPS # FPS # FPS # FPS 13 953 26 969 39 948 52 927 12 891 25 957 38 955 51 933 11 962 24 965 37 937 50 936 10 971 23 951 36 969 49 945 9 970 22 963 35 962 48 945 8 969 21 962 34 961 47 937 7 949 20 967 33 957 46 942 6 968 19 973 32 964 45 951 5 957 18 947 31 965 44 950 4 953 17 970 30 962 43 960 3 905 16 977 29 961 42 954 2 966 15 970 28 958 41 956 1 941 14 966 27 971 40 948 |
| # FPS # FPS # FPS 13 927 26 932 12 933 25 933 11 948 24 938 37 909 10 926 23 933 36 914 9 947 22 925 35 912 8 931 21 938 34 917 7 943 20 931 33 912 6 935 19 931 32 925 5 920 18 936 31 928 4 935 17 925 30 910 3 934 16 941 29 915 2 923 15 929 28 931 1 927 14 935 27 910 |
Lower string looks good I would stop and refill after 32 shots on the bottom string then your spread would be better at 23 fps just my opinionThanks for the input. Absolutely but this was about establishing a base line i.e. fill pressures, washers etc so I wanted to be sure it was at the end.
Ok sorry missed that part in your postNot at all, I didn't make it clear enough
Jethro, I commend you on your diligence doing the legwork with your SS.Thank you sir. Its both frustrating and enjoyable at the same time. Currently it seems that its the last string of each day that gets me that bit closer and makes me want to see what tomorrow has to offer.
I've had my .22 SS for little over 7 months, kept it completely factory and experimented with various orings and shims.That's more or less where I am. I took the modded hammer out and put the original back in. The only non cosmetic change is the quick change top hat
As your testing shows, the gun is very capable of long strings, shooting different weights of ammo accurately without 3000psi fills.I've been amazed at how many shots a modest fill of 150bar / 2200 will produce, for example 150 shots in the 700s with an SD of 24. Of course not particularly useable and came with a huge spread but in terms of the number quite surprising.
Thanks for specific reference, that sort of information is just what I'm after. Did you use shims with the o ring?
I shoot mine with a sanded down .062" flat rubber washer behind the tophat achieving mid to upper 900fps consistent and accurate with 18 and 21gr ammo.
That's a terrific setup and its the same distance I'll be shooting the first groups over.
With a pw setting of 5-2 I've found that all weights from 18-34gr will shoot to the same point of aim at 35yds.
tweaking these rifles is a real blast, but can also put a hurting on pellets and air.Yes it is, and it can also result in a lot of bruises from banging one's head on the table ;D
My personal rifle, is as follows.... larger restrictorThat's the 1025fps one?
.... O ring underneath top hatwhat thickness of o ring are you using? Is it just the o ring or are you using shims as well?
Main spring clipped one coil, bent and polished endThis really interests me, have you got any "how to" photos? I've been struggling to hold my self in check until I've finished testing the basic combinations before doing this.
TT 95 gram heavy hammer with slap mod (also power builder)Given the spring / power wheel situation I was going to take mine out and then the o ring came off it so the decision was made for me.
put an o ring under the top hat, clip one coil off the spring, slightly bend and polish the end and face it towards the power wheel, and use the factory hammer. put the "large" restrictor in the top hat, and set your PW at 0/0 i bet you'll be in the 600's velocity, slowly adjust your PW up to what your happy with, and using a fill of about 2200 or 2400, and you will dial it in.Thanks for the over view. I'm happy to say that I'm on track for most of it already
.... PW at 0/0 i bet you'll be in the 600's velocityThat's a lower fps than I've managed but I haven't touched the spring.
using a fill of about 2200 or 2400I'm happy to say that I've been working at the same pressure
My rifle puts 30 shots with about 6 fps spread, at 875 fps or so, with 18.13 grain JSB's. 30.xx foot lbs of energy.
Keep velocity under 900 fps for best accuracy and to reduce leading of the barrel.Thank you, that's what I've been working toward but this rogue shot thing is killing me
Is your tophat adjusted so there is no gap when the bolt is closed? If not when you close the bolt and the breech is not against the tophat the hammer hits the breech, then has to travel and hit the tophat.
Make sure when you close the breech that you pull the breech against the tophat as you close it. I make all my guns so there is no gap.
No worries, I completely follow what you've done. Its a different approach for sure
I hope my description is able to be followed as I don't use a dedicated photo hosting site,, or I would post pics.
it sounds a perfect set up
I'm betting it would be 60 or more at the pw setting of 6-1 it's on now.................95yds
Is your tophat adjusted so there is no gap when the bolt is closed? If not when you close the bolt and the breech is not against the tophat the hammer hits the breech, then has to travel and hit the tophat.Dyotat many thanks for the prompt. I took the breech out & swapped the o rings. I haven't fired enough shots to be certain but it appears to be working properly now
Make sure when you close the breech that you pull the breech against the tophat as you close it. I make all my guns so there is no gap.
Sanding shims
“How do you accurately, (and painlessly) sand shims?
Is your tophat adjusted so there is no gap when the bolt is closed? If not when you close the bolt and the breech is not against the tophat the hammer hits the breech, then has to travel and hit the tophat.Dyotat many thanks for the prompt. I took the breech out & swapped the o rings. I haven't fired enough shots to be certain but it appears to be working properly now
Make sure when you close the breech that you pull the breech against the tophat as you close it. I make all my guns so there is no gap.
..... I have been following along and can see you have made real progress
... I am posting a more detailed visual for you to maybe help you see your last tune a little better.
..... Typically the low dips are caused by inconsistent hammer travel, but not always. Good luck.
..... uncocked, the main spring is under significant preload.I fully understand you on this. It was the “how to” part of clipping the spring that I wanted to know a little more about. I’m a bit cautious about hacking bits about and was hoping for a “spring chopping guide for dummies” but the I think its a case of JFDI on my part ;D
..... thats why you waste so much air.
......This is also why you get the "rogue" shots.I had been thinking along the lines of valve, tophat and breech o rings being the cause.
clipping one coil off hte main springa perfect low starting point for my low fpe needs of pest control around buildings
.... shortens the spring, and brings it to near zero preload at 0/0.
..... on a stock valve, you should be around the 600 fps mark, set up with an o ring, and a clipped coil.
I picked a random spot cutting about 1/4" total length off the spring, bent it in with a pair of pliers, and used a metal file and a diamond hone, cleaned up the face. I put the cut side, towards the power wheel.Perfect thank you and definitely a case of JFDI
slowly crank the power up using preload until you get your ideal power setting. if you don't, you can always remove the insert. and start from zero again.In experimentation it became apparent to me that I wasn’t going to be able to think of an fps number and set up to land precisely on it. For example looking for 900fps and only getting 850s and 920/50s. I spent a day fossicking around with an infinite combination of shims to no avail. I tried to make the difference up with the power wheel but at any setting it used more air for less shots & for no appreciable improvement
my .25 was making from about 5 fpe, to about 90 fpe, from full sweep of the power wheelBeing able to go from ultra low to full power and all points in between is exactly what I’m after. I have some occasional 6, 12 and 60fpe work but my main stay would be 30fpe so the convenience will be marvellous
i have yet to find a tune i could use without using an o ring. I have tried using the shims, and i keep going back to the o ring.I’m rapidly coming to the same conclusion. I spent all day yesterday trying various shim only combinations and couldn’t better the o ring results. In fact the string I posted yesterday was based on the O ring only set up that you posted earlier.
i swapped barrels down to .22, and am now getting a PILE of shots and its lazer accurate, etc. love it.Exactly what I’m looking for. I hope to be able to swap from low power pest control inside buildings, to 30m plinking to 100m targets. I’m particularly keen to try the 100m fun
Lol, no manual,Well I hope you have lots of patience for daft beginners questions :0)
I thought you might want to view an actual graph of the string mainly to see the bell curve easier.Absolutely, thank you. I’ve been pasting the results into Numbers(mac). On their own the numbers, (fps), don’t mean much to me but the visual representation in a graph is extremely useful. Now I have to learn to interpret the information that its telling me
You have a nice 30 to 35 yard tune now, but I would focus on what Edward said and eliminate those dips.I spent all day yesterday trying to do just that. I've just realised that was one of the first strings that I shot yesterday. I copied Edward's set up to see how my gun compared to his. After that I pulled the breech three or more times trying to cure the dips. Now, as Edward suggests, it seems that I may have been looking in the wrong direction. I’m working up the courage as I type to go out and cut that spring
I believe if you follow his lead you will have a string near or under a 2% ES you will really enjoy accuracy wise long range. I personally set my tuning goals to be under a 2% ES and SD under 5. Set your own goals and break them...It's challenging and fun to do and the reward is better accuracy at much longer ranges.Until yesterday I really would never have believed that such tight parameters were possible for a mere mortal with out some serious celestial intervention. In all seriousness I was so focused on the rogue shots and the target fps that the improvement represented by that string was lost on me. It wasn’t until I sat down in the evening to graph the day’s results that I realised what I had.
That is a very efficient gun and can't believe you are getting 37 shots averaging 28 FPE using less than 500psi.Keep in mind that there’s plenty of room for inaccuracy in those figures. Number one there’s a brand new numpty pcp novice taking the readings. Number two I’m reading off a 1.5” gauge where the needle is thick enough to be an issue. I do have some very accurate 4” analogue gas gauges and a couple of digitals with a decent tolerance. I’ll fit those up when I’ve solved the dips issue. Then I’ll be able to provide much better info. I did read some where on here that 12psi wasn’t unreasonable for a Condor but hey, what do I know :0)
I picked a random spot cutting about 1/4" total length off the spring, bent it in with a pair of pliers, and used a metal file and a diamond hone, cleaned up the face. I put the cut side, towards the power wheel.
Well I hope you have lots of patience for daft beginners questions :0) Is that some thing that you’ve put together?
| # Fps diff 25 853 -4 24 857 -17 23 874 -1 22 875 -1 21 876 1 20 875 -5 19 880 0 18 880 25 17 855 -17 16 872 -20 15 892 -1 14 893 14 13 879 5 12 874 17 11 857 -23 10 880 25 9 855 -15 8 870 -4 7 874 -4 6 878 48 5 830 -7 4 837 -46 3 883 5 2 878 22 1 856 |
| # Fps diff 50 863 6 49 857 -4 48 861 10 47 851 -4 46 855 -27 45 882 9 44 873 -2 43 875 -6 42 881 2 41 879 0 40 879 -2 39 881 9 38 872 -3 37 875 5 36 870 6 35 864 -8 34 872 4 33 868 -6 32 874 -13 31 887 25 30 862 -3 29 865 -14 28 879 7 27 872 -2 26 874 21 |
I am totally frustrated as I have been working on this for more than 2 weeks and have wasted over 500 pellets.By pure coincidence I've just read your post on tag. I'm only a week into it but a lot more pellets. Fingers crossed eh!
Fingers definitely crossed.I am totally frustrated as I have been working on this for more than 2 weeks and have wasted over 500 pellets.By pure coincidence I've just read your post on tag. I'm only a week into it but a lot more pellets. Fingers crossed eh!
At what ranges are you looking to shoot mostly?I hope to be able to swap from low power pest control inside buildings, to 30m plinking to 100m targets. I’m particularly keen to try the 100m fun
.... I'm getting about 55 foot lbs with the big restrictor and can target shoot and hunt with that at any range.
I think talon tunes sells the washers already sized
What PW are you shooting at?
PW up the difference and try. Hopefully you still have enough left. I haven't really messed with .22. I have one but I haven't had a tank for it in 6 years. When I did it was regulated.
I didn't have this problem until I swapped out the Talon valve internals with the Hiflo internals from the Condor valve ...... I am going to call AF and see what they think.
Olly, I talked to AF. PM sent to you. You need to call AF. They believe the issue is the hammer. Evidently there were some hammers that had an issue. They are sending me one of the new ones and our symptoms were the same as the bad hammer symptoms. Fingers crossed again.
I believe, you have a cranky valve/tank.I've just mentioned to Jim that I was using a TT hammer before switching to the AF one and still had the same issues. I'm of the opinion that its a valve issue but then I am inexperienced in these matters
are you assembling your rifle dry inside? light film of oil? or are you using silicone grease on your hammer, and spring?I've tried a number of things but as I'm in a dusty environment I keep it as dry as possible
I even put silicone shock oil, on my top hat stem about every 5,000 shots to make sure its ok.I did the same with VFG TFT oil
i installed the 90 duro o rings from Talon TunesI did the same and have changed them out a couple of times
CALL AIRFORCE. talk to rachel or the other lady that answers, i forget her name. They are great, really great. they will help you!I'll get on to them and pass them all the relevant information. I'm also going buy another set of valve internals
I'm about 98% certain it's a valve issue. Probably a sticky valve seat or face, maybe a weaker valve spring. The spring you clipped and then heated needs to be replaced. You will never get any consistency with this springI believe that you are correct. I received a call from AF today from a tech. He believes it is a valve issue as well. They are sending me a new valve spring and retainer. I went ahead and got them to send a new brass cap and delrin seat which I paid for. Just so everything is new when reassembled. It isn't much fun hand pumping from 0psi. I don't want to have to tear it apart again if I can help it. I should have everything by the weekend and get it back together then shoot a string and see if this fixes it. I will report back with the results.
I looked at the Talon Tunes QCTH and nothing looks abnormal or bent. I had tried the different restrictors and nothing made any difference
...... I don't know if the TTQCTH is defective or not but it was definitely the issues cause. Don't get me wrong I am not slamming Tony or his products. It is kinda weird that Olly had the same issues with the same product. I will be shooting some more strings just to be sure.
I received the new AF TH and installed it after setting it to .984 (from bottom of TH to bottom of valve stem) then red loctited it and the set screws and let it dry for 2 days. If I have to replace it, I will buy another one from AF and do the same to it.
Anyone measure the OD the TT stem?Its packed up ready to go in the post back to TT but I'll measure the new one when it arrives. What should it be?
Was surprised to see how ruff the finish was in the pic. If it's not smooth and the fit is on the tight side that could be your problem. The o ring only need to barely be putting pressure on the stem. It's just there to stop the air on the shot.Good info thank you
some valves don't work smooth when compressed with your thumb.I'll check it all out for smooth operation when the new one arrives.
The return spring is so tight that it's making the valve bind. Make sure the valve is smooth working. Try turning the stem or he spring retainer nut to move things around. Valve should be smooth when compressed.
Try turning the stem or he spring retainer nut to move things around. Valve should be smooth when compressed.Rotating the stem I understand but I'm a bit confused about "turning the retainer nut" Isn't the spring retainer nut static and loctited in place?