GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Hoosier Daddy on June 03, 2017, 11:22:07 AM
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I have been in the mind set I was not going to get into the PCP rabbit hole.....Nope not me. ::)
I have been thinking about a QB79 or an AR2079 as a next gun.
Son in Law #3 worked at a local Paintball Complex for a few years in his younger days and says while they are capable of bulk filling CO2 bottles, he has been recommending I go HPA. So I started looking around and the QB79 with a Ninja bottle seems nice. What I don't like is the idea of having to drive somewhere to get a tank filled. So that brings me to a hand pump as a solution.
You can fill a ninja bottle with a Hand pump... right?
But now the recent release of the Beeman Chief has me thinking.
The built quality of the 3 should all be similar. And if I am going with a hand pump either way I am thinking price wise it may be a wash.
I know the Chief has just hit the market and there is not much hard data on it yet, but is there any benefit to holding onto my mindset of converting a AR2079 to HPA instead of buying a 2K PCP gun built that way from the start?
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My personal opinion would be to go with the QB Chief. I myself just think its a cool gun, and you can't go wrong when its manufactured from the ground up to be PCP hpa rifle. Converting a c02 to HPA is obviously easily doable, but I say why not give the Chief a shot also considering its less than $200, i think like $170 exactly or something. Remarkably low price
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Quick talk about pump effort/PCP's.
Considering how HPA bottles are connected to QB79's, taking the bottle off to get it filled isn't an option (you'd need to partially dissassemble the rifle every time). Wandering into a paintball shop with a rifle (they know paintball guns...QB looks like a rifle-rifle) with the bottle attached won't win a lot of firends either.
1. The more volume to fill, the more effort to fill.
2. The higher the pressure, the more effort.
3. To keep you pump happy and healthy, pump in sets of 50-60 strokes, then bleed the pump hose, disconnect, and give it a little cool down wait. Bleeding it every 50-60 pumps tends to blow out collected moisture and the cool down wait tends to kee the pump o-rings long lived.
(You can ignore rule #3 and just learn to rebuild your pump much more often than the guy who observes rule #3).
Pressure:
Whatever tiny volume of air the pump puts out per stroke, the rifle will accept only the amount over the pressure still in the rifle. So if you start refilling when the rifle drops down to 900PSI, then most of each pump goes into the rifle. As the rifle's pressure rises, less and less of each pump stroke goes into the rifle. So even if the two tubes had the same air volume, will take more effort to fill from 1900-3000psi than it will the fill the same air volume from 900-2000psi.
Volume vs pressure range:
Am a confirmend pump filler, but I don't look forward to filling 13ci bottles. Thats about 215cc's of voule, which isn't bad, but often need to fill them from 900 to 3000PSI, which is 2100psi of air... a whole lot of air.
That 215cc's is about the same as on an M-Rod...but those usually only need refilling once the pressure drops to about 1900-2000psi. Filling 1100psi worth of air into 215cc's is easier than filling 2100psi of air into a 215cc HPA tank.
I tend to think in "total air".
Air is not a "perfect" gas, so it's not always as proportional as I'd like, but 150cc's of 3K air is 1/3 more air than 150cc's of 2K air.
Now to shoot a PCP at some "normal" speed, can release a little "blip" of 3K air to get to that speed, or release a long "blap" of lower pressure air. Either way, can get to a desired speed/energy.
But, becasue that little "blip" of 3K air used less of the total air volume than the longer "blap" of 2K air, would expect more shots (likely 1/3 more shots as there is 1/3 more air) before having to refill the rifle once again.
SO...yeah...are likely to EITHER get more shots OR higher power shots from 150cc's of 3K air than 150cc's of 2K air, but 150cc's of 2K air is easier to pump-fill.
Typical compromise (with a rule #3 twist).
Lets say I have a small volume PCP (130-150cc) that fills to 2K (like a Disco/Maxi/Chief). Will likely need to refill it by the time it drops to 900psi. Depending on how fast/powerul it's set to shoot, am filling every 20-40 shots (OK...with a 5-6 foot pound "match speed" rifle, that might be 90 shots).
LEts just call it every 25 shots for you guys who want more than springer power.
Can fill that rifle that 1100PSI (900-2000psi) with about 43-50 pump strokes(depending on the pump).
That is under Rule #3's 50-60 pump stroke per set limit...so no wait time. It's pump one set, shoot 25 shots, pump one set, shoot 25 shots, pump one set, shoot 25 shots, etc..
Lets say I have a 3K fill rifle with a modest 180-200cc volume. Likely would need to refill back to 3000psiat something like 1800-1900psi. That will take more than one set of pumps (rule #3). Might get 35-45 shots (again, depending on the energy level/air use per shot).
So that drill would be pump---bleed pump/cool down wait...pump...shoot 35 shots...pump---bleed pump/cool down wait...pump...25 shots, etc.
Or you might want a mega-powered 3K PCP moster. Lets say 200cc's, 3K fill limit, and you get 12-15 good shots at really high power before having to refill at 1800psi. So that would be pump fill..bleed pump/cool down wait...pump fill...bleed pump/cool down wait...pump fill...shoot 15 shots.....repeat.
One advanatage of a regulated HPA bottle QB 79: you don't have to fill to 3000psi.
So long as the bottle is filled OVER whatever the regulator is set for (lets say 1000psi), the rifle will shoot just as fast as it would if filled to 3K. Just won't shoot as long a string.
Thats pretty much proportional. If you can get 100 shots filled to 3K and shot down to 1000psi, would likely get 50 shots if you only filled it to 2000psi (haslf way between 1000 and 3000psi)....or 25 shots if filledf to 1500psi..etc.
I do keep a QB79 HPA conversion...running at 900psi. I've been using it as a "back door" gun (and ratter), so it stays propped abainst the bac door and might get a few shots per week.
Unlike a lot of folks, went with adjusting things for shot count over raw power. So somthing close to 13 foot pounds for + 200 shots per fill.
That's 200 shots for 215cc's over 2100psi...still a PIA to pump back up to 3K, but considering the number of shots, I'm not likely to refill this one (excluding 0-ring failure/leaks) more than 4 times a year.
BOTTOM LINE: Two choices for a pump filler.
Would you rather pump your butt off (with lots of bleed pump/cool down waiting) and shoot a carp-load at one stitting....or pump a little bit (less than one set), shoot, pump, shoot, etc.?
I can see #1....esp. if you pump fill it the first time the night before (gotta do something when TV not worthy or during commericals).
Can also see #2, which really is my pference for various reasons...small volume/shorter shot count works for me with hunting rifles. Not so thrilled with the idea for bench rest use.
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That puts a lot of thought into it... Thanks!
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Just say NO!
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If you have the $$$...go with a compressor and a storage tank (lets just say 4-8X as much as a started PCP rifle).
Other than that, having a tank refilled by a 3ty is like hiring a cook to cook your meals, a lawn service to cut your grass, or a gigolo to "service" your girl friend/wife (or both). Basically this: if you can't do it, someone else can.
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I have a pump and a couple of tanks. One is a 3000psi scuba tank and the other is a 4500 psi scba tank. Both get filled for free at my local fire station. Well not entirely free, I send over a few pizzas now and then. Point is if you use a DIN300 valve on your tanks fire department can fill them in minutes.
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Get into PCP and get it over with ...... go with FX, Daystate, RAW, and if you like to tinker get a BSA ..... then get a Great White tank from Joe and be done with it! There is no saving money in PCP, you get what you pay for.
My $.02
Pappy
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There is no saving money in PCP, you get what you pay for.
Pappy, that is exactly what has kept me away from them.
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Scott when I was out in the woods today I was shooting at some marks on old dead logs just to see how close I was, I used up all the good air so I had to refill, I carry a pump behind my seat just for this purpose rather than drag a big scba along with me, well it really worked out good. The pump that I've been using for probably a year now is one of the clones of the G6 Air Venturi I pumped up to the end of the green which according to Mroair is 3300psi. They're like they're made to be put behind the seat of a standard truck cab.
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With all the hoopla, I was also drawn to HPA. The idea of a high shot count from an airgun before needing to recharge it definitely has its appeal. BUT when I was honest w/myself I came to realize there wasn't an actual need for me to use HPA for the type of shooting I like to do- the bulk of my shooting is casual target/plinking out to about 30 yards or so, which I enjoy enormously. No hunting, no long distance target shooting. So while a high shot count is nice, the tariff for that is just too high for me. But I'm glad it exists as an option.
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Nice to see you broadening your horizons Scott, its been a blast for me working on mine. Speaking of I have ordered a few parts for it that should have it better then new. Will update the respected topic on that instead of hijacking this any further, this is about you and tapping into as well as furthering your deep dark addiction well seeking counseling with others of your kind. lol
The ninja tank can be filled well attached to the rifle with a pump or what not without having to take anything apart. I personally like the higher shot count/consistancy of the QB79 with ninja though out of the box the QBC would likely be a lot less work unless are happy with the power of the stock QB79 W/ ninja(<11-12FPE?). I really like them both though. Depends what you would be happy with and if you would like to put extra effort into it to get more out of it.
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I'm of the opposite opinion of most of you guys with your pressure-volume-efficient formulas and stuff.
It's the K.I.S.S. method for me, Keep It Simple Sonny.
I'd go with a Disco and pump, remove the rear sight and install a Williams peep sight FP-AG-TK.
TKO if you really need it to pacify your neighbors, but it turns a nice carbine type rifle into a spear.
I've never bled my pump down between pump strokes and have never felt any warmth in the pump body.
I need to cool myself down after about 40 strokes (old age).
I just walk away for a few minutes and then come back and continue when I'm ready.
Slow strokes with a pause at the top and bottom of the stroke.
Disco is easy to fill to 2k...
If I can't pump for some reason I can switch over to co2 without fiddling with anything - just bleed off the remaining air.
Fill adapter isn't too costly.
Have fun...
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Scott,
I have my eye on that Beeman Chief myself.
Looks like a great starter PCP and cheaper then the Maximus.
Hand pumping to 2000 PSI is easy! the AT44's go to 3000 and that pushed me into a $1300 compressor.
Just remember this. THERE ARE NO DANGED COOKIES!!!
;)
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Scott,
I wondered about The Dark Side for a long time, too. Last summer I entered the Aug/Sept GTA raffle cause it offered a tuning of a Gen II Mrod and a tactical stock. Much to my surprise, i won the raffle. I quickly ordered a refurbished Mrod in .177 and had it shipped to Travis at WAR. He installed a regulator, his SSG, and some of his pixey dust and shipped to me. I then got a scope and a G-6' pump to complete my set-up.
I shoot mostly in my 10 meter garage at about 12 ft lbs. for about 120 shots on a 3000 psi fill. I am only a 150 lbs of rippling 68 year old retiree. However, I can easily manage the patient pumping. OK, so I walk and exercise most days to maintain a healthy lifestyle, but it is not a strain to pump after a shooting session.
I also have other airguns to add variety. So my bottom line is that as stated above, pumping is not hideous unless you like to shoot high power and lots of that. The accuracy of my Mrod is very interesting, and I hope to get outside more this year after attending the GTA Fun shoot in May.
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All of the responses are fantastic. I thought a Nija bottled QB79 / 2079. would be 2000 and so is the Chief.
I was under the impression the volume would be the variable. So the Ninja bottle was a larger volume and require more pumping... But would also have a larger shot count between topping off was required.
Can not afford a compressor or a SCUBA / SCBA tank.
What's a "guppy" tank?
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A guppy tank is 90ci....I think.
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I just got done posting my first experience working with a hand pump: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=127469.msg1249694#msg1249694 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=127469.msg1249694#msg1249694)
There are two charts there and comments on the effort, but like the others are saying, 2000 PSI is very reasonable. I'm a pretty light person, but by 2000 PSI I was only having to lean on the pump some (at 3000 it was more like throw my weight on top of the pump...). I was surprised at how linear it was--nearly 225 PSI "added" for every 20 strokes at low or high pressures on a 200 CC rifle .
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Scott, I think Robert did a thorough job of explaining the pros and cons. Just a few comments based on the way I see the scales tipping one way or the other.
To my way of thinking, choosing between a bottled conversion and a PCP comes down to two things:
- how much (and what type of) tinkering you want to do, and
- how much energy you want for your purposes
Both are going to require some tinkering if you want to wring out their potential. With the Chief, like any conventional (unregulated) PCP, it's going to need to be adjusted to give a useful bell curve. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it takes hours and hours of time running strings over the chronograph. With a QB HPA conversion, the only tinkering you would need to do is back off the hammer spring to get good efficiency. The joys of having a regulator.
Which brings us to energy. Looks like the Chief will deliver around 20fpe out of the box. Not a lot of shots per fill, given the smallish reservoir and 2000psi max fill, but plenty of energy for medium game and/or shooting with pretty flat trajectory out beyond 50 yards. Not much need to beef it up unless you just get the urge. An otherwise unmodified QB HPA conversion will be around 10-12fpe with a Ninja SHP bottle. Lots of very consistent shots, owing to larger volume and higher fill pressure and of course the lower energy level. Can get it up to the same energy levels as the Chief or higher by opening up the flow with guides like Bob's or mine. You can get it done with pretty basic tools and skills, and while I realize it's not for everyone, it's possible to achieve some phenomenal results that way.
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Getting close to midnight... But I found this and want to remember.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=90578.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=90578.0)
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Scott, I will turn 65 in July and still have no problem filling my guns with a pump. (I actually enjoy the exercise) There are many starter PCP rifles to chose from, but if you are willing to spent the cash, the P12 from Mrodair is a great bullpup to start with, powerful and accurate... if you are into the bullpup form factor...
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I have 3 PCPs with less than 2000 psi fill. I'm a small 65 year old, shoot almost every day fill with a hand pump, 25 - 40 strokes depending on which rifle I'm using with no problems. One 22 caliber 50 fpe 1850 psi 7 shots 40 strokes another 22 caliber 25 fpe 1500 psi 20 shots 40 strokes and a 177 caliber 10 fpe 1300 psi 25 shots 26 strokes. None of these rifles are high dollar but they all are accurate and a TKO make them back yard friendly.
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My modified QB is dropping em like its cool.
2 pumps per 29 ft lb shot.
Lately (since the grass got tall) I pump once per month and shoot pests.
2 today.
Im betting more tomorrow before donuts.
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Scott, I've used only my handpump, a Benjamin, to fill my QB and my PP700. The PP700 I pump to 3000 PSI, 67 CC reservoir, and most of the time I refill once. Twice during marathon shooting sessions, I've refilled 14 times in one day.
I've also filled my QB bottle, which is a 13CI / 213 CC, 6 times in one day.
Yeah, that's a lot of pumping, but I did A LOT of shooting. And the naysayers who say not to get into PCPs are just robbing themselves of one more facet of this great sport. It would be like loving fishing but never being willing to go fly-fishing.
For hunting, a good basic 2000 PSI fill is all you need whether it be the Disco, Maximus, or the Chief, and you'll be able to open up your lethal range with a PCP. I took my first long distance pest with my PP700 pistol yesterday, 55 measured yards.
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That does it...
I need to thin the hoard herd...
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Hi Dave, I haven't seen you post in a while. Glad to hear the QB is still laying the smack down.
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I have been in the mind set I was not going to get into the PCP rabbit hole.....Nope not me. ::)
I have been thinking about a QB79 or an AR2079 as a next gun.
Son in Law #3 worked at a local Paintball Complex for a few years in his younger days and says while they are capable of bulk filling CO2 bottles, he has been recommending I go HPA. So I started looking around and the QB79 with a Ninja bottle seems nice. What I don't like is the idea of having to drive somewhere to get a tank filled. So that brings me to a hand pump as a solution.
You can fill a ninja bottle with a Hand pump... right?
But now the recent release of the Beeman Chief has me thinking.
The built quality of the 3 should all be similar. And if I am going with a hand pump either way I am thinking price wise it may be a wash.
I know the Chief has just hit the market and there is not much hard data on it yet, but is there any benefit to holding onto my mindset of converting a AR2079 to HPA instead of buying a 2K PCP gun built that way from the start?
Just write the check, you are already mentally committed just need us to shove you into the PCP pool :)
Two choices
- Maximus + pump
- Beeman Cheif+ Pump
Similar guns. I have a maximus and it is very accurate for the price.
If the Chief shoots as well in terms of accuracy I would probably go for that over the Maximus just based on the trigger. The beeman will have a better trigger (save you 20.00 from buying a brass one like I did for the maximus) The beeman is 2 pounds heavier but its not really a heavy gun. The Maximus is super light, scope it, sling it and add a bipod and its still lighter.
Both under 200.00. About the cheapest way you can test the PCP waters. You don't have a big downside to this. But it might lead you down the road to carbon fiber tank, compressor, Daystate or FX etc... :)
http://www.airgundepot.com/benjamin-maximus.html (http://www.airgundepot.com/benjamin-maximus.html)
Look at them, they need a home :)
(http://puu.sh/waDPZ/3b554c73ed.jpg)
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I would've probably already gotten a couple, but right now I just don't have time enough to shoot them as much as they'd deserve.
An Mrod modded for shot count and a Prod modded for power are on the list.
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Hi Dave, I haven't seen you post in a while. Glad to hear the QB is still laying the smack down.
Hey Jason-your tuned QB is working out great. We got lots of rain out here last winter so the area is crawling with ground squirrels and rabbits.
Im surprised to learn these pests rarely move when I overshoot so I can get in a few follow ups as needed. I've learned my hold unders/overs better so Im connecting more. 20+ ft lbs of impact energy makes a distinct sound.
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Hi Dave, I haven't seen you post in a while. Glad to hear the QB is still laying the smack down.
Hey Jason-your tuned QB is working out great. We got lots of rain out here last winter so the area is crawling with ground squirrels and rabbits.
Im surprised to learn these pests rarely move when I overshoot so I can get in a few follow ups as needed. I've learned my hold unders/overs better so Im connecting more. 20+ ft lbs of impact energy makes a distinct sound.
Thwack...
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The Darkside is expensive, I would consider getting the most gun you can the first time. Have of the advantage of a pcp is the follow up shot, if I were you I'd think about a repeater. They are more expensive but you'll end up with one eventually. I rarely shoot my springers anymore (single shot) since I got a Prod and bullboss. Keep an eye on the bargain gate I scored the bullboss for $379.00
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The Darkside is expensive, I would consider getting the most gun you can the first time. Have of the advantage of a pcp is the follow up shot, if I were you I'd think about a repeater. They are more expensive but you'll end up with one eventually. I rarely shoot my springers anymore (single shot) since I got a Prod and bullboss. Keep an eye on the bargain gate I scored the bullboss for $379.00
PCP bug is expensive. My first gun was a Daystate and is still my best by a large margin. I did not need to buy another gun but nooo I could not do that, had to test the waters in the low and mid price guns. They are not bad at all, they will get the job done and are just as much fun.
In theory you should just buy 1 gun and keep it. I like multiple guns, for friends to shoot and also testing them vs just reading about them.
Single shot - not really a big deal to me, but yes a 10 shot clips is icing on the cake.
Silencer - icing on cake can be added to any gun later.
Accuracy - none of the PCPs are terrible in this department. It gets to be more of "How many shots can I do before my point of impact changes. If you are hunting pests most of them will give you 15-20 trusted shots and that is all most people need.
weight - This is a big one for me. I hesitate if a gun is over 8 pounds. Both guns he is looking at are under that..
2000 psi - this is huge if you are going to hand pump. Pretty much eliminates most PCPs. If you go to a 3000+ psi gun just forget about hand pumping then you are into carbon tanks and +600.00 to price.
Price - so low on these you are not going to regret it.
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Aw, c'mon guys ;D I handpump my guns, a QB and a PP700, both to 3K. And Manny (NomadicPirate) handpumps his guns, and he has some real air-cannons. I mostly plink with my PP700 (very precise plinking) and I'm pumping it up quite often- even as a single-shot pistol with a rifle scope. And I'm still under $600 for the pump, the pistol, and the QB combined!
A 2000 PSI fill gun isn't bad at all, and I've pumped my QB only to 2K a number of times just for expediency.
In the end, there's no harm in exploring the deep end of the pool. Sort of like anybody with springers will eventually end up with either a D34 or an HW30... It ain't a bad thing!
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Aw, c'mon guys ;D I handpump my guns, a QB and a PP700, both to 3K. And Manny (NomadicPirate) handpumps his guns, and he has some real air-cannons. I mostly plink with my PP700 (very precise plinking) and I'm pumping it up quite often- even as a single-shot pistol with a rifle scope. And I'm still under $600 for the pump, the pistol, and the QB combined!
A 2000 PSI fill gun isn't bad at all, and I've pumped my QB only to 2K a number of times just for expediency.
In the end, there's no harm in exploring the deep end of the pool. Sort of like anybody with springers will eventually end up with either a D34 or an HW30... It ain't a bad thing!
LOL, yes there will be people that say "Oh 3000 psi" no problem, love to shoot all day and pumping is no biggie. I did that 3000 psi pump thing and it got old fast. 2000 psi is much more doable for the average Joe. I just don't want to tell someone to go buy a 3300 psi gun and pretend pumping it to 3300 is easy. 30 shots and your out and back to pumping.
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Aw, c'mon guys ;D I handpump my guns, a QB and a PP700, both to 3K. And Manny (NomadicPirate) handpumps his guns, and he has some real air-cannons. I mostly plink with my PP700 (very precise plinking) and I'm pumping it up quite often- even as a single-shot pistol with a rifle scope. And I'm still under $600 for the pump, the pistol, and the QB combined!
A 2000 PSI fill gun isn't bad at all, and I've pumped my QB only to 2K a number of times just for expediency.
In the end, there's no harm in exploring the deep end of the pool. Sort of like anybody with springers will eventually end up with either a D34 or an HW30... It ain't a bad thing!
Yup, its very doable. My QB has a big bottle and I generally pump to 3K, but I don't have to.
Tangential question regarding your pistol... is this available for it? What kind of FPE is it getting?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w51mCY9uiKo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w51mCY9uiKo)
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Aw, c'mon guys ;D I handpump my guns, a QB and a PP700, both to 3K. And Manny (NomadicPirate) handpumps his guns, and he has some real air-cannons. I mostly plink with my PP700 (very precise plinking) and I'm pumping it up quite often- even as a single-shot pistol with a rifle scope. And I'm still under $600 for the pump, the pistol, and the QB combined!
A 2000 PSI fill gun isn't bad at all, and I've pumped my QB only to 2K a number of times just for expediency.
In the end, there's no harm in exploring the deep end of the pool. Sort of like anybody with springers will eventually end up with either a D34 or an HW30... It ain't a bad thing!
LOL, yes there will be people that say "Oh 3000 psi" no problem, love to shoot all day and pumping is no biggie. I did that 3000 psi pump thing and it got old fast. 2000 psi is much more doable for the average Joe. I just don't want to tell someone to go buy a 3300 psi gun and pretend pumping it to 3300 is easy. 30 shots and your out and back to pumping.
Oh, I'm not disputing that... but pumping is actually quite easy until you hit 2600 PSI. Fro what I've read, the Hill and Hill-replica pumps work even better, but my Benjamin pump gets it done fine. And for a 2K fill, no sweat.
and I've filled my QB to only 2000 a number of times when testing different pellets- mostly out of laziness. And in the grand scheme, comparing to my 392, my 760, or even my P-17 or 95QE, I have to do some type of work to make lead go downrange. IE: to make it go I need to expend energy. I can take 40 or 80 shots with my pistol and it tires me out after pumping less than the same number of shots in my Hatsan 95QE.
Yup, its very doable. My QB has a big bottle and I generally pump to 3K, but I don't have to.
Tangential question regarding your pistol... is this available for it? What kind of FPE is it getting?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w51mCY9uiKo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w51mCY9uiKo)
Mine is only .177, but I can get over 12 FPE. Donny (Rallyshark) and a few others have taken theirs to 19/20 FPE in .22, and I'm sure more can be made at the cost of shot count on an already-small cylinder.
I've seen that stock in the video before- pretty slick, but I think it's a one-off creation. Still, looks fairly simple to make.
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I had a hand pump once, forgot the name but it was a better one that filled higher psi.
The thing about the hand pump that I liked best.....scratch that......I mean that I LOVED!!!
Was the day I sold it and bought a tank.
My 2nd happiest day in darkside land was the day my compressor came in.
Would highly recommend against the hand pump unless your a teenager in good shape.
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I started with tanks, but went to pumps...like the little bit of exercise, like not having to deal with hauling tanks, like not having to hydro test...a little work filling seemed a fair trade to me.
Still does, even (like many in this post) and of SS age....will save tank filling for when I retire the 2nd time.
Unless your rifle leaks or you totally degassed, a typical Disco.Maxi will run well from about 1000psi (about 2000-1000psi)...so you aren't filling it from zero.
Typically, 40-50 pumps (depending on the brand and health of the pump) will bring one from 1000 back up to 2000psi. That's not enough pumps to need a cool-down wait, so it takes about 2 minutes of slow pace pumping.
Out in the woods/range can be a bit of a PIA to keep everything clean....really don't want to lay the rifle down in the dirt, contaminate the pump with grit, and need a pretty stable base for the pump to sit on.
Pump tales:
1. Those fiber glass 4.5K tanks do have one seldom mentioned advantage: they tend to float.
2. (in relation to #1): if you do drop a pump over board and manage to find and retrieve it, likely would have been just as well off to have left it on the bottom unless you can immediately take it apart (doesn't take too maay hours of salt water... while you boat back to the dock, load up the boat, and then drive home.)
3. Been trying to kill two of the less expensive Chinese pumps (one was $120 and the other $100) for +2 years. Still working. While I was paying attention to the Chinese pumps, the much less used Hills pump died.
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Different things work for different people.
I'm not in bad shape but after a motorcycle wreck the hand pump is to much on "Me"
Works the one part in my lower neck/upper back that I injured.
Hand pumping also works better if its not 100+ in the shade with high humidity.
The guns I have now like the Hercules and soon to be flex 357 with 4500psi Carbon bottle, I couldn't imagine hand pumping these guns. (Still have trusty bt65 30 cal and it can be hand pumped to fill)
As always if your getting into pcp you will need a way to fill and I think everyone should give the hand pump a try while having a normal shooting session to see if this is what they want.
The compressor/tank method is Costly and you could buy a few nice guns for a good set up.
But after I bought it and got over cost............I'm very happy with this set up.
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We wander...
Start of this post was about a 2K Disco/Maxi/Beeman Chief/ or 3K QB79HPA. Refilling the 13CI HPA bottles can be a pain (more like 150-170 pump strokes), but the other three will fill from bottom to top of a typical shot session in about 40-ish pump strokes.
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The best part of hand pumping is trying to hold your crosshairs on target when all the pumping is done. Makes me appreciate the biathlon.
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We wander...
Start of this post was about a 2K Disco/Maxi/Beeman Chief/ or 3K QB79HPA. Refilling the 13CI HPA bottles can be a pain (more like 150-170 pump strokes), but the other three will fill from bottom to top of a typical shot session in about 40-ish pump strokes.
Most times the disco/max/ other small guns are a gateway drug and you end up with higher power guns before you know what hit ya....lol
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Are a few who try PCP and go back to springers...won't find them on this section of the forum, but it happens.
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We wander...
Start of this post was about a 2K Disco/Maxi/Beeman Chief/ or 3K QB79HPA. Refilling the 13CI HPA bottles can be a pain (more like 150-170 pump strokes), but the other three will fill from bottom to top of a typical shot session in about 40-ish pump strokes.
Most times the disco/max/ other small guns are a gateway drug and you end up with higher power guns before you know what hit ya....lol
I ended up going backwards in power from 30fpe to 21 fpe. 30 seems to be about all I need, if I need more I go to powder burners. If I did 100 yard bench competition then yea I might go to larger caliber like .25 and heavier pellet.
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We wander...
Start of this post was about a 2K Disco/Maxi/Beeman Chief/ or 3K QB79HPA. Refilling the 13CI HPA bottles can be a pain (more like 150-170 pump strokes), but the other three will fill from bottom to top of a typical shot session in about 40-ish pump strokes.
I did originally state that it would be with a hand pump. So its discussion is valuable input.
To me, being 54 and not in the best physical condition, the 40-50 pumps would be do-able I should think. And since 2000 psi should be a pressure of least effort, to me this sounds like another reason to go with the Beeman Chief instead of a Ninja Bottled / regulated QB.
Now I have also been researching Hand Pumps. I would like to hold out for a Hill, but am looking hard at a Winbest by Barska. I have seen many reports where it is better than the Benjamin.
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We wander...
Start of this post was about a 2K Disco/Maxi/Beeman Chief/ or 3K QB79HPA. Refilling the 13CI HPA bottles can be a pain (more like 150-170 pump strokes), but the other three will fill from bottom to top of a typical shot session in about 40-ish pump strokes.
I did originally state that it would be with a hand pump. So its discussion is valuable input.
To me, being 54 and not in the best physical condition, the 40-50 pumps would be do-able I should think. And since 2000 psi should be a pressure of least effort, to me this sounds like another reason to go with the Beeman Chief instead of a Ninja Bottled / regulated QB.
Now I have also been researching Hand Pumps. I would like to hold out for a Hill, but am looking hard at a Winbest by Barska. I have seen many reports where it is better than the Benjamin.
The Hill pump "a real one" is better. And they are $300.00. I think the air venturi is much less and its faster and better than the Benjamin pump. The hill has a clear bottle of descant hooked to it so the air you pump in has less moisture.
Take a look at this video, they compare pumping using a Benjamin pump vs Air Venturi. And also a preview of the Maxiumus gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAIq_FaHDFU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAIq_FaHDFU)
If you get the Maximus and don't like the harder trigger pull you don't really need to buy the brass trigger like I did. The real issue is the spring is too thick. I could have taken a spring from a ball point pen and put it in for free and did 90 percent of what the brass trigger did.
(http://puu.sh/wcP3L/ce814cfa33.jpg)
Don't agonize over it too long. You will be happy with any of the guns.
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Myself have never owned a pump. Bought a used scuba off craigslist to fill a Disco then moved up to a 60 min scba when I moved up to 3000 psi rifles. I paid 75$ for the scuba and 125$ for the scba that had about 4 years left.
I do have a question, can you front load a pump off a 150 psi air compressor to shorten the amount of strokes needed to fill?
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Myself have never owned a pump. Bought a used scuba off craigslist to fill a Disco then moved up to a 60 min scba when I moved up to 3000 psi rifles. I paid 75$ for the scuba and 125$ for the scba that had about 4 years left.
I do have a question, can you front load a pump off a 150 psi air compressor to shorten the amount of strokes needed to fill?
Good question and I am sure someone on this forum has tried it, not much they have not tried.
It would lessen the amount of strokes some but not the amount of work. Its going to be harder to push that pump down if it already has 150 psi in it. Each stroke would get more air in the gun but you would work a little hard to push it down. Could be a wash in the end. But would be curious on how it worked out for the modders that tried it.
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Everything I have read about using a compressor to boost a pump says its marginally harder to use well being much quicker taking many fewer strokes. I want to try this personally when I get a pump though I know only a few of the pumps can be hooked up without extra work. Another down side is the air has much more moisture to deal with but both down sides are manageable and situational. There is probably more to consider but this is as I recall it.
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Airgun Depot just had a shootout
Head to Head: Beeman QB Chief vs. Benjamin Maximus
http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus (http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus)
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I should bring the mrod up and let you squeeze a few off. I can bring the Tex also if you want to get serious lol. I'd be looking into a maximus .22 if I were going to start with a pump again. 3k is not bad to pump but it is work. My tuned .25 mrod only needs 2100psi to get 16 shots at 42-44 fpe unregulated.
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Airgun Depot just had a shootout
Head to Head: Beeman QB Chief vs. Benjamin Maximus
http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus (http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus)
I do like a metal trigger and a wood stock to some extent. But the difference in weight would be huge for me as I'd view these entry level rifles with relatively low shot count as a carrying/hunting type rifle. 8 pounds unscoped is a heavy gun to me.
I'd have to look at the xs60c if I had to have wood. Or the Varminter.
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I should bring the mrod up and let you squeeze a few off. I can bring the Tex also if you want to get serious lol.
YES... Yes you should!
Maybe not, I have drooled over Airforce Guns way too long. A Texan would push me into the poor house. ;)
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I should bring the mrod up and let you squeeze a few off. I can bring the Tex also if you want to get serious lol.
YES... Yes you should!
Maybe not, I have drooled over Airforce Guns way too long. A Texan would push me into the poor house. ;)
Nothing wrong with a little fun.
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Airgun Depot just had a shootout
Head to Head: Beeman QB Chief vs. Benjamin Maximus
http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus (http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus)
I do like a metal trigger and a wood stock to some extent. But the difference in weight would be huge for me as I'd view these entry level rifles with relatively low shot count as a carrying/hunting type rifle. 8 pounds unscoped is a heavy gun to me.
I'd have to look at the xs60c if I had to have wood. Or the Varminter.
If you want a light wood hunting gun get the Daystate Regal or the Brocock S6 Elite. Both tack drivers and super light 6.25 pounds and you wont find a better trigger. But the Maximus wins the weight battle at 4.xx pounds, 5 at most.
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Airgun Depot just had a shootout
Head to Head: Beeman QB Chief vs. Benjamin Maximus
http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus (http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus)
I do like a metal trigger and a wood stock to some extent. But the difference in weight would be huge for me as I'd view these entry level rifles with relatively low shot count as a carrying/hunting type rifle. 8 pounds unscoped is a heavy gun to me.
I'd have to look at the xs60c if I had to have wood. Or the Varminter.
If you want a light wood hunting gun get the Daystate Regal or the Brocock S6 Elite. Both tack drivers and super light 6.25 pounds and you wont find a better trigger. But the Maximus wins the weight battle at 4.xx pounds, 5 at most.
To be honest....
I like the look of the Brocock Contour G6....and the Airforce Talon SS. And the P-rod...
And not a splinter of wood to be found on any of them.
But I thought this thread was about entry-level (least expensive) rifles with lower pressure so they'd be easily pumpable.
And I was just offering a different option in wood.
But the OP may not be planning on long treks through the forest and briar patch anyway.
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...But the Maximus wins the weight battle at 4.xx pounds, 5 at most.
Wow...I weighed my R10 and Gamo the other night. I was comparing the two, so I forget the Gamo's weight, but the R10 was 10 pounds with the big scope on it. Less than 5 would be something!
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I should bring the mrod up and let you squeeze a few off. I can bring the Tex also if you want to get serious lol.
YES... Yes you should!
Maybe not, I have drooled over Airforce Guns way too long. A Texan would push me into the poor house. ;)
Buy a Tex 3 shot 300FPE gun with a benjamin pump. I give you 2 days before you buy a Carbon Fiber tank :)
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Airgun Depot just had a shootout
Head to Head: Beeman QB Chief vs. Benjamin Maximus
http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus (http://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-beeman-qb-chief-vs-benjamin-maximus-article.html?trk_msg=MF856UA3JUU436GBK04K6OUUJO&trk_contact=LM4AI0DF5OUPQSTES0HUQ1QLDO&trk_sid=FI6D7UIMKVFG52CCDLJL9BBHSO&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=Beeman+QB+Chief+vs+Benjamin+Maximus&utm_campaign=Head+to+Head&utm_content=Chief+vs+Maximus)
I do like a metal trigger and a wood stock to some extent. But the difference in weight would be huge for me as I'd view these entry level rifles with relatively low shot count as a carrying/hunting type rifle. 8 pounds unscoped is a heavy gun to me.
I'd have to look at the xs60c if I had to have wood. Or the Varminter.
If you want a light wood hunting gun get the Daystate Regal or the Brocock S6 Elite. Both tack drivers and super light 6.25 pounds and you wont find a better trigger. But the Maximus wins the weight battle at 4.xx pounds, 5 at most.
To be honest....
I like the look of the Brocock Contour G6....and the Airforce Talon SS. And the P-rod...
And not a splinter of wood to be found on any of them.
But I thought this thread was about entry-level (least expensive) rifles with lower pressure so they'd be easily pumpable.
And I was just offering a different option in wood.
But the OP may not be planning on long treks through the forest and briar patch anyway.
Exactly, at the low price point I would concentrate on accuracy and weight and 2000 psi. The wood is actually a downgrade because MOST wood guns (Except a few that I listed) just add weight and cost.
I'm voting Maximus, you don't know what light is until you have used one.
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Funny you should mention "Maximus".
One of our fine Members PM'ed me he had an extra one that he is willing to part with. Proven good shooter, only 100 shots so like new, and in the Price range I was looking for.
"ABOUT FACE!"
Took me totally by surprise... I have since done a little research on that AG now and so far like what I see.
I can get that kind of Funds in short order, and maybe get the Hand Pump for Fathers Day if I tell all the kids I want ebay gift cards. (somebody will get me a tie)
In preparation to the darkside I think I'll start shooting with a welding helmet on. ;)
This place is friggin awesome.
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Welcome to the darkside!
You ever put a scope on that 72 Benjamin?
That was better than some pcp guns I've had.
Well hit target better, wasn't bad on pumping either.
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As a matter of fact ... yes.
The scope rail and a 4 X 32 CP is now on the '15 year 392PA and the 392P is back to iron sights... Both are darn good shooters configured that way.
The 342 is now wearing a Benji Peep but I have not sighted it in. Tonight the wind is dying down and the Honey-Do list is almost complete...
HOWEVER at 80 deg and calming, I have the CO2 powered AR2078-B set up on the bench... 8)
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I should bring the mrod up and let you squeeze a few off. I can bring the Tex also if you want to get serious lol.
YES... Yes you should!
Maybe not, I have drooled over Airforce Guns way too long. A Texan would push me into the poor house. ;)
Buy a Tex 3 shot 300FPE gun with a benjamin pump. I give you 2 days before you buy a Carbon Fiber tank :)
In 308 it's more a 9 shot. 2 shot in .457 with heavy slug and 9 or 10 with round ball. Yeah wouldn't want to pump 490cc's.
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Funny you should mention "Maximus".
One of our fine Members PM'ed me he had an extra one that he is willing to part with. Proven good shooter, only 100 shots so like new, and in the Price range I was looking for.
"ABOUT FACE!"
Took me totally by surprise... I have since done a little research on that AG now and so far like what I see.
I can get that kind of Funds in short order, and maybe get the Hand Pump for Fathers Day if I tell all the kids I want ebay gift cards. (somebody will get me a tie)
In preparation to the darkside I think I'll start shooting with a welding helmet on. ;)
This place is friggin awesome.
Enablers! Welcome to the rabbit hole. In a year you will either go deeper or start digging out lol. I'm good with my 2 PCP's but would like a .308 and a maximus for my son to borrow lol.
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Funny you should mention "Maximus".
One of our fine Members PM'ed me he had an extra one that he is willing to part with. Proven good shooter, only 100 shots so like new, and in the Price range I was looking for.
"ABOUT FACE!"
Took me totally by surprise... I have since done a little research on that AG now and so far like what I see.
I can get that kind of Funds in short order, and maybe get the Hand Pump for Fathers Day if I tell all the kids I want ebay gift cards. (somebody will get me a tie)
In preparation to the darkside I think I'll start shooting with a welding helmet on. ;)
This place is friggin awesome.
Oh nice score on the Maximus!
If you buy the Maximus you must watch the obligatory video clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hriR60Y4w48 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hriR60Y4w48)
You will here it this when ever you saddle up with the new Maximus!
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So, did you decide on anything yet?
If you can find a lightly modded one for not too much, a Benji Discovery or Maximus might be a good option. Easy to hand pump and plenty powerful.
Now you SHOULD go into this with the right expectations:
- You're going to go through a lot more ammo than with springers. If you get a repeater and a tank, doubly so.
- You will start to lose some technique, if you don't keep shooting the springers anyway. PCPs will spoil you.
- Pumping will get old, but you'll get muscles to show for it, and better cardio health. It'll also slow you down a bit so you're not shooting 2 tins of pellets per week, which you could easily do with a tank and repeater.
- If you get a Disco or a Maxi, you'll probably want a moderator at some point. They can have quite a bark,
otherwise.
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Finding a nearly new, pre-tested, Maxi would certainly influence me in that direction as a first PCP.
Maybe I'n not quite like other PCP owners. Have some muchymore expensive rifles, but the simple "started" PCPs get much more use than I expected....so no matter how many or how fancy I buy, still go out with the simple ones much more often (esp. if it's raining, or I know I'm going deep into some sloppy/brushy woods, etc.). I've added to the herd, but haven't really "outgrown" any of them.
If allowed to give unasked for advice, it would be this:
Shoot it. Shoot it alot, at least 7 or 10 refills worth. Shoot targets, shoot blocks of wood, shoot rows of full water bottles, shoot close, shoot far...basically shoot it in every way you normally shoot an airgun. Would be nice in the bingining to clean the barrel every 2nd recharge to keep things even.
Then really think.
How loud is it for your situation (you'd likely know that by the 2nd or 3rd shot). Living out in the countery is different from subrubia, but if you want quiet, there is a whole custom part/ cottage industry dedicated to that.
Does the trigger need to be better? (about 74 out of 75 times the answer is "Yes"...but once in awahil Crosman accidently lets one though with a pretty nice trigger).
Do I need more power (which will cost shot count) or do I need more shot count (which will cost some power). Often a reduction in power of 10% can earn 33% more "good" shots (seems unfair, but it's waht I've found pharting around with several Crosmans).
Any way, I actually shoot fewer shots with playing with PCP's than I do with springers. Not uncommon to spend an after noon plinking/shooting a springer for 200-300 shots...and have been days where I emptied a 500 count tin.
As for repeater vs single shot...there is no law saying you have to shoot a repeater at any faster pace than you do a single shot. Probably better off re-playing a poor sot in your head for a moment or two to figure out if you did something to make that happen than it is to just cycle the rfile and pop another one off without thinking about it.
Will give repeater this: it's the best/cleanest way to carry spare ammo I can think of...but it doesn't make me shoot at a faster pace.
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So, did you decide on anything yet?
If you can find a lightly modded one for not too much, a Benji Discovery or Maximus might be a good option. Easy to hand pump and plenty powerful.
Yep Jeremy, solidifying the deal on the lightly used Maximus at this time.
8)
Guys, there is no "unasked advice" to me.. please feel free to share!
How loud is it for your situation
I live out in the country, and hunt in my own woods, so technically Db is a non issue.
But stealthyness is what drew me to AGs from my PBs. That and ammo price. ;)
I can not imagine the "crack" of a PCP to be as loud as my .177HMR and I like the idea the pellet should not travel outside my 25 acres compared to a mile and a half + from the PB in similar size projectile.
But my 2300KT with a TKO is down right spooky quiet... so I will be looking into that upgrade eventually. 8)
Does the trigger need to be better?
I have done trigger work on almost all of my Crosman guns. The PC77 is the best I have tuned, but the CDT GRTIII on the Genesis is down right perfect. The lawyer spring mod on the Beeman Kodiak was a wash to me.
So this Maximus should be next eventually
Do I need more power (which will cost shot count) or do I need more shot count (which will cost some power).
I have already researched the Challengers Power Adjuster and other custom bits for this gun. Being my first PCP I think it will be a test-bed for springs, spacers and other bobbles.
I LOVE TO TINKER!
As for repeater vs single shot...
Everything I own is a single shot. I had one CO2 repeater and was not impressed so I sold it off.
One at a time is what I am used to and perfectly satisfied with.
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Giddy as a School Girl once again!
Earlier I snuck in that I was leaning towards the Winbest PCP Hand Pump by Barska. LINKY (https://www.barska.com/winbest-5400-psi-air-gun-pcp-hand-pump-3-stage.html)
I have not had any feed back on it here. If I need to start another thread on that topic I will.
Does anyone who is on this thread have experience with it ?
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Alright , let me just say the group here is awesome.
Ok, it's been said before... but this sequence of events is over whelming generosity.
First I get a PM from a member who won a .22 Maximus in a raffle.
He shot it about 10 times and proved it functional and accurate and and is willing to sell it to me for a significantly reduced price from MSRP.
On my word he put my name on it, boxed it up, and it is NOW paid for and ready to ship tomorrow.
Next another member offered me a NIB Winbest hand pump he had. He bought two and never even opened this second one that he had kept it for a spare. "Don't need it, sending it now, pay me when you can"
8)
I am now about to plunge into the Darkside for $275 all in.... All by Fathers Day!
Imagine the look on that Bastage 'Coons face that has learned to stay just out of my 30yd springers range.
I need more pellets...
(http://cedarwrites.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/darkside-cookies-17.jpg)
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Good deal indeed. Let me know how you like the Max. Looking into one for my boy for Nutter season this year. The springers are just a bit to much for him to cock yet. Might even sell the XL1100 to get one.
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Luke! NOOOOO!!!
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Good deal Scott!
;D
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Good deal indeed. Let me know how you like the Max. Looking into one for my boy for Nutter season this year. The springers are just a bit to much for him to cock yet. Might even sell the XL1100 to get one.
A couple things on the Maximus. I just shot one yesterday for the first time:
+ The stock is light, but doesn't feel cheap. It's well-made.
+ The barrel was good. 1" groups at 40 yards is no sweat.
- The action was terrible. Just gritty and draggy. The bolt has a lot of side-to-side play inside the receiver. It was so bad on this one that the owner broke the original bolt trying to pull it back one time. Maybe some deburring on the corners of the bolt would help? Even if this was done, I have to give the Maximus/Discovery action about a 3/10. When the action is working right, it's still QUITE a heavy hammer spring to pull the bolt back against. It takes a strong hand. (you pull with your thumb braced against the back of the receiver, with fingers on the bolt)
- Even after the brass trigger mod, it was still too heavy for my taste. Maybe 3-4 lbs? But shootable, as long as you're not after MoA groups.
- Single shot: This won't get old until you try your first PCP repeater, so forget I said it. ;) The bolt doesn't come back far enough to easily load a pellet. It takes a bit of finagling, which you'll get used to quickly.
- They're quite long, once moderated properly. This is not a fault that's limited to Benjis; my Air Arms S510 is a 52" long beast and my PCP Hammerli 850 is probably 50".
Since Hoosier Daddy doesn't mind tinkering, I think he'll like it. I wouldn't recommend one to someone who doesn't like tinkering or a heavy trigger and hammer spring.
I'm sure you'll come back and let us know how it panned out.
By the way, did you go for .177 or .22?
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OK. Who's in charge of sending Scott some cookies?
;)
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I want cookies and a Maximus!
Jeremy- that little bit of verbiage you put up is a perfect amount of detail for anybody wanting to take the plunge. When it comes to a "first PCP", the 2 best choices for a novice are likely the Max and the PP700, as both are relatively accurate and offer tons of value for the monies.
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Good deal indeed. Let me know how you like the Max. Looking into one for my boy for Nutter season this year. The springers are just a bit to much for him to cock yet. Might even sell the XL1100 to get one.
A couple things on the Maximus. I just shot one yesterday for the first time:
+ The stock is light, but doesn't feel cheap. It's well-made.
+ The barrel was good. 1" groups at 40 yards is no sweat.
- The action was terrible. Just gritty and draggy. The bolt has a lot of side-to-side play inside the receiver. It was so bad on this one that the owner broke the original bolt trying to pull it back one time. Maybe some deburring on the corners of the bolt would help? Even if this was done, I have to give the Maximus/Discovery action about a 3/10. When the action is working right, it's still QUITE a heavy hammer spring to pull the bolt back against. It takes a strong hand. (you pull with your thumb braced against the back of the receiver, with fingers on the bolt)
- Even after the brass trigger mod, it was still too heavy for my taste. Maybe 3-4 lbs? But shootable, as long as you're not after MoA groups.
- Single shot: This won't get old until you try your first PCP repeater, so forget I said it. ;) The bolt doesn't come back far enough to easily load a pellet. It takes a bit of finagling, which you'll get used to quickly.
- They're quite long, once moderated properly. This is not a fault that's limited to Benjis; my Air Arms S510 is a 52" long beast and my PCP Hammerli 850 is probably 50".
Since Hoosier Daddy doesn't mind tinkering, I think he'll like it. I wouldn't recommend one to someone who doesn't like tinkering or a heavy trigger and hammer spring.
I'm sure you'll come back and let us know how it panned out.
By the way, did you go for .177 or .22?
Jeremy, thank you for posting this! Like Scott, I just stepped over the edge and ordered the Maximus/Benjamin Hand Pump combo from Crosman. I took advantage of their 25% off promo and free shipping on Friday. I'm looking forward to getting and trying this rifle.
Scott, looking forward to hearing your impression of the Maximus, and that's for starting this thread, it's almost like you were inside my head! Scary place!
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So, living in a humid state like Florida, do I need to get one of those desiccant thingies for my hand pump? Just wondering if it's actually needed or just one of those items they sell to get more money from ya? I see they are available as a direct fit item for the Benjamin Pump on Amazon, but also available from Harbor freight with a needed adaptor. Is one better than the other? Thanks...
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Alright , let me just say the group here is awesome.
Ok, it's been said before... but this sequence of events is over whelming generosity.
First I get a PM from a member who won a .22 Maximus in a raffle.
He shot it about 10 times and proved it functional and accurate and and is willing to sell it to me for a significantly reduced price from MSRP.
On my word he put my name on it, boxed it up, and it is NOW paid for and ready to ship tomorrow.
Next another member offered me a NIB Winbest hand pump he had. He bought two and never even opened this second one that he had kept it for a spare. "Don't need it, sending it now, pay me when you can"
8)
I am now about to plunge into the Darkside for $275 all in.... All by Fathers Day!
Imagine the look on that Bastage 'Coons face that has learned to stay just out of my 30yd springers range.
I need more pellets...
if your hand pumping don't worry about extra pellets.
Your not going to shoot anymore pellets with a hand pump over a true break barrel gun.
When I had a Benjamin np2 I burned through some pellets, with the Benjamin 72 I sold you, it can save on pellets with its multy pump.
Big bore guns you'll run out of air before pellets/bullets.
Now my flex 25 will eat up some pellets.....I still haven't did a shot count on it but it's over 40 shots and maybe over 50. I kinda loose interest in counting that many shots and I just shoot em.
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Think I goofed that up, it put my reply in with that quote. I didn't fix but was able to put space between your reply I quoted and my reply.
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Paul,
From what I have read a desiccant filter / moisture separator is a good idea. I know Florida Humidity 1st hand and even up here they are recommended. Tom Gaylord had a write-up saying the condensate water that builds up is what kills most PCP's.
Shoot, our air compressors here at work can generate GALLONS of water a day.
I saw an add-on desiccant filter on Amazon but wanted to see my Hand Pump in person before making a decision on which to get. Don't know where or what fitting the air intake has on the Barska Winbest Pump.... and the website says it already has a filter.
Jason, thanks, I figured it out.
But... I wish I had been the one you sold the Benjamin 72(0) to.
Don't know who it was. ;D
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So, living in a humid state like Florida, do I need to get one of those desiccant thingies for my hand pump? Just wondering if it's actually needed or just one of those items they sell to get more money from ya? I see they are available as a direct fit item for the Benjamin Pump on Amazon, but also available from Harbor freight with a needed adaptor. Is one better than the other? Thanks...
Paul, no amount of desiccant is going to remove enough humidity from the Florida air, unless it is air-conditioned down to a more reasonable level first.
I generally pump my PCPs only inside the house, where the air is drier. (it gets humid in Chicagoland in the summer too, over 90% sometimes) It's generally less than 50% inside my house, according to the humidity readout on my basement dehumidifier. Even then, when I degas the fill hose, I feel moisture on my fingers.
When I need to refill outside the house, I use an air tank, filled from the local SCUBA shop. My club has a community tank, and I just took the plunge and bought a tank a month or so ago. We know that's good dry air.
So when you're shooting at home, just go inside the air conditioning to pump fill it and don't worry. When you're shooting away from home, for anything more than just a hunting outing, you'll probably want to get a tank. The good news there is that you don't need an expensive carbon fiber tank, since your gun only requires 2,000 psi. A typical SCUBA tank can be filled to 3000, which will give you a lot of fills, and they are quite cheap, second-hand and with a recent hydro. They have to be hydro tested every 5 years, but the tanks never expire, as long as they pass visual inspection and hydro testing. Carbon fiber tanks expire after 15 years regardless. There is noise of that law possibly changing, but nothing on the books yet. The owner of my local SCUBA shop told me that in Europe, divers sometimes use TWO carbon fiber tanks, side-by-side, and they are still lighter than one SCUBA tank, and give at least 4X the dive time.
Short story is that a used/hydro'd SCUBA tank should probably be your first purchase, after scope, rings, trigger and moderator, if you're going to be doing much shooting outdoors away from home. Or, just shoot the springers when you're out in the field for an extended plinking session.
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I agree, do your pumping indoors where the humidity is lower. I am in the southeast so I deal with the same thing.
One of the little inline filters is better than nothing but just barely so. Air moves through too quickly to remove much moisture, that's why many of us have made moisture filters with larger canisters of desiccant beads. Something like a 1 qt plastic mayonnaise jar works well. There are several DIY articles and pictures on GTA if you search.
Air wants to tunnel between the beads so try to arrange things so the intake and outlet are as far apart as possible. Another option is to use PVC tubing and make a long filter.
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Thanks for all the feedback! Shipping from Crosman is generally pretty slow, so I have time to do some research! I like the ideal of making my own, so I may see what I can come up with. In the mean time, I can definitely pump in the house, I pretty much just shoot in my back yard anyway, so no big deal there!
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1972 342 22cal?
Thought you were the person I sold it to
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OOOHHHHH!
A '72 year!
Yep that WAS me.... Senior moment.
:o
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OK... My (beautiful) Maximus arrived from Marty2.
My Winbest Hand pump from VigilAndy is in route.
Now for the bottle questions....
I would like a small bottle that is refillable with the hand pump. Something I can pump it up in stages inside the house to a max pressure and take with me to top off the 2000PSI Maximus for a moderate evening of shooting.
I have been looking at the Gorilla tanks for about $55 but the P3 regulator is for much lower "paint ball" pressures. LINKY (https://www.ansgear.com/Guerrilla_Air_Pro_Compressed_Air_Tank_W_Myth_M3_p/ysnguerrilla623000tankpro.htm)
Here is what I am thinking I want that is SAFE but with the least cost involved.
Metal tank capable of 3000 psi with enough volume for several (2+)refills of the Maximus 135cc or 8.24ci like a 60-70CI paintball bottle at 3000psi would give me a couple refills up to 2000psi
A regulator to 2000 PSI, adjustable or set to my 2000 max fill pressure.
A hose or "fill station" that has a foster female fitting to fill my gun with a Male foster fitting for me to fill with my hand pump.
All for under $100
Doable or not?
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The reg is going to cost you close to that. The tank already has the correct fill nipple for your pump. You need a ninja fill station a tank and a 2k reg. PB sports wanted $200 for install of reg and fill station. I got my own and put one in my 68ci CF paintball tank it's great for in the field backpack refills. (Was to old for paintball so) Let me know when you are ready to get together for some shootin!
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I am soooooo close Tim! I will fire up the Weber and cook you a mouth waterin' steak.
The tank already has the correct fill nipple for your pump.
I am not seeing that. :P
got my own and put one in my 68ci CF paintball tank it's great for in the field backpack refills.
I think that's what I am asking for... please share.
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BAck yard...
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u670/Hoosierb17/IMG_20170513_204915589_zpsahwabnrm.jpg)
Front yard...
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u670/Hoosierb17/IMG_20170513_204034551_HDR_zpsoqdyfqvf.jpg)
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Here's a reg https://www.amazon.com/4500PSI-Regulator-Pressure-2000PSI-paintball/dp/B06XBV3GRP%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAIP33U72F7W6H6DOQ%26tag%3Dwoodfurnitu0b-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB06XBV3GRP (https://www.amazon.com/4500PSI-Regulator-Pressure-2000PSI-paintball/dp/B06XBV3GRP%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAIP33U72F7W6H6DOQ%26tag%3Dwoodfurnitu0b-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB06XBV3GRP)
The fill nipple on the reg will be the same as the maxi. Easy to swap out. Maybe a oil filter wrench to hold the tank and a wrench. Unless you whip on your pump is different than my benji it should go straight on. You will then need the ninja fill station for paintball tanks. http://m.ebay.com/itm/Ninja-PCP-Airgun-Fill-Station-For-High-Pressure-Output-Regulators-/272479474146 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/Ninja-PCP-Airgun-Fill-Station-For-High-Pressure-Output-Regulators-/272479474146)
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Thank you Tim,
Now it all makes sense. The male foster to fill the tank is on the regulator and the fill station goes from the reg to the gun.
I was having trouble with the 2000psi output but you nailed it on Amazon for me.
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Thank you Tim,
Now it all makes sense. The male foster to fill the tank is on the regulator and the fill station goes from the reg to the gun.
I was having trouble with the 2000psi output but you nailed it on Amazon for me.
Scott, can you PM me with how this project turns out for you? Especially if you can pull it off for under $100! This has me very intrigued!
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Sure thing Paul!
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Did you get the pump and gun yet? How are you liking it?
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I saw a picture of a yard.....but no Maximus
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I have received the gun only so far. Pump is coming clear from California
OK... My (beautiful) Maximus arrived from Marty2.
My Winbest Hand pump from VigilAndy is in route.
Now for the bottle questions....
Last night I put a CP 4x16 a/o scope on but no photo of that yet
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u670/Hoosierb17/Hobbies/IMG_20170615_172314549_HDR_zpsadividm9.jpg)
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I have received the gun only so far. Pump is coming clear from California
OK... My (beautiful) Maximus arrived from Marty2.
My Winbest Hand pump from VigilAndy is in route.
Now for the bottle questions....
Last night I put a CP 4x16 a/o scope on but no photo of that yet
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u670/Hoosierb17/Hobbies/IMG_20170615_172314549_HDR_zpsadividm9.jpg)
Nice!
That gun will provide you with great shooting.
Not that you need one but in the future if you get a TKO $54.00 moderator your gun is the longer version of the Maximus like mine. Which means the TKO will fit and the fill cap will still come off without having the mill the cap.
The front sight is just a push on with a set screw or glue. Just twist it a little left and right and it pulls off.
Here is what it looks like on mine.
(http://puu.sh/wnjPk/e35aaa31f0.jpg)
On the trigger, if you find it a little heavy just change the spring with one from a ball point pen that does most of it. I got the brass trigger and its nice but I think I could have just put a weaker spring in for free. The brass one can be had a baker air guns for 22.00.
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Thanks RAJOD,
I can see on yours two things I had in mind for mine. The TKO and a Bipod. I wondered about the front sight, looks like mine has no set screw. Appears to be a fiber optic version of the classic Crosman sight
When I received it from Marty, it had about 1250 PSI on the gauge so naturally I had to try a shot. Louder than I expected but not too loud for my rural area. I have a TKO on my 2300KT and it always surprises me the first shot of a shooting session how QUIET it is.
Then I put on the scope and while the CP came with Picatinny / waever rings I had a set of 1" medium Dovetails.
I was able to JUST get the rear ring to clear the Breech and the objective end to clear the rear sight.
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u670/Hoosierb17/Hobbies/IMG_20170618_064744112_zpsq4unxfca.jpg)
This made me happy not only because I did not have to buy another set of rings, I was able to retain the rear sight in case something happened to the scope in the field, and I prefer to keep my sight plane of the scope as close to the barrel as possible.
I then loaded a CPHP to verify I could, and there is enough room to do it without much effort. So now I had a loaded gun, with a new scope, and enough air for another shot. Stepped outside the garage door, took aim on my "resettable squirrel " target and pulled the trigger.
HOLEY ..... Not only did I hit it, but actually witnessed the kill zone paddle fall!
I stepped it of a right about 30 yards from a new gun and scope combo that I had not touched the adjustments on!!!
Now I have to put it down until the Handpump arrives. :P
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This made me happy not only because I did not have to buy another set of rings, I was able to retain the rear sight in case something happened to the scope in the field, and I prefer to keep my sight plane of the scope as close to the barrel as possible.
I then loaded a CPHP to verify I could, and there is enough room to do it without much effort. So now I had a loaded gun, with a new scope, and enough air for another shot. Stepped outside the garage door, took aim on my "resettable squirrel " target and pulled the trigger.
HOLEY ..... Not only did I hit it, but actually witnessed the kill zone paddle fall!
I stepped it of a right about 30 yards from a new gun and scope combo that I had not touched the adjustments on!!!
Now I have to put it down until the Handpump arrives. :P
If there's any daylight left when I get home, I think I'm going to remove the scope and zero in the iron sights before I attempt to zero the scope. Looking to zero the iron sights at around 15 yards and the scope at 35 yards. then I'l see if i can actually shoot it using the iron sights with the scope attached. It should be interesting... I like that CP scope you have in yours Scott.
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OK... My (beautiful) Maximus arrived from Marty2.
My Winbest Hand pump from VigilAndy is in route.
Now for the bottle questions....
I would like a small bottle that is refillable with the hand pump. Something I can pump it up in stages inside the house to a max pressure and take with me to top off the 2000PSI Maximus for a moderate evening of shooting.
I have been looking at the Gorilla tanks for about $55 but the P3 regulator is for much lower "paint ball" pressures. LINKY (https://www.ansgear.com/Guerrilla_Air_Pro_Compressed_Air_Tank_W_Myth_M3_p/ysnguerrilla623000tankpro.htm)
Here is what I am thinking I want that is SAFE but with the least cost involved.
Metal tank capable of 3000 psi with enough volume for several (2+)refills of the Maximus 135cc or 8.24ci like a 60-70CI paintball bottle at 3000psi would give me a couple refills up to 2000psi
A regulator to 2000 PSI, adjustable or set to my 2000 max fill pressure.
A hose or "fill station" that has a foster female fitting to fill my gun with a Male foster fitting for me to fill with my hand pump.
All for under $100
Doable or not?
Keep an eye out on the classifieds or try a WTB post.
Example: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=117624.msg1131510#msg1131510 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=117624.msg1131510#msg1131510)
Pumping a tank is a lot of work though! And to make it worthwhile, you'll want to be pumping to 3000 psi. From what I've been told, it takes a lot more effort to go from 2k to 3k than 1k to 2k. No personal experience. I pumped up the Disco once. Strictly a tank guy now. :D
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Oh Andy, Andy, Andy....
I got all excited then realized I had overlooked one key word for a minute in that post...
"SOLD"
;D
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Pumping a tank is a lot of work though! And to make it worthwhile, you'll want to be pumping to 3000 psi. From what I've been told, it takes a lot more effort to go from 2k to 3k than 1k to 2k. No personal experience.
I just for the heck of it pumped from 900 to 2000psi, didn't much break a sweat and it's 90 degrees outside. I would just shoot down to 700-900 then pump and repeat.
I pump my Mrod to 3100 or so, 2-3K gets rough, but to 2k no sweat.
I have a tank that I use now, but it wasn't until I picked up a second gun.
Just yesterday I was at the dive shop I use, there's always 3K tanks for sale, honestly every dive shop I've been in has 3K tanks for sale. But then I do live the coast so maybe it's different in non coastal areas.
Shoot pump then shoot again, that's what I would do.
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Oh Andy, Andy, Andy....
I got all excited then realized I had overlooked one key word for a minute in that post...
"SOLD"
;D
I guess I should have mentioned that important detail.... LOL
I was the one who actually bought it. It's my loaner set. I'm not the kind of friend that would make someone use a hand pump. :D :D
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It's my loaner set. I'm not the kind of friend that would make someone use a hand pump. :D :D
Had a cup of coffee this morning, pumped from 1100 to 2000 while having that 1st cup of the day, pump pump sip sip, by time I was ready for that 2nd cup I was done. I think those little fill tanks would be great the way you use i.e. Not having to fill it by means of a hand pump, but it's got to be 3x's harder filling it than simply filling the gun as needed imo.
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Thanks for your input Kevin. Your first hand experience and input does mean a lot to me.
My expectation is to do just that 75-80% of the time.
But if I do 50-75 pumps at a time, with hour or two breaks in between, or even a couple times a day, I am hoping I could hand pump a 48ci bottle up to 3000psi throughout the week.... and have it ready for the weekend shooting days.
If there is a spontaneous "Big Outing" planned I could just take it to the local Paintball Complex and have it aired up.
Andy: I am working on a set-up like you showed.
Tim: The Nija station on Ebay has the best price I have yet found... and the reg on Amazon is the ONLY one with 2000psi output. MUCH appreciated.
Do you guys think with with a 48ci Bottle at 3000psi I could get several fills to 2000psi on the gun with the 8.24ci volume?
I am sure there is some deep math that could figure out just how many.... in theory. ::)
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Lloyds calculator says 6 fills with a 48ci tank and 135cc resevoir. That does not include the fill whip so I'd say 5 fills. Shooting from 2k to 1k psi
http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php (http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php)
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Well that is even better than I hoped. Even with a "I'm Tired of Pumping" factor allotted for
Down the rabbit hole I go!
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Here's a reg LINKY (https://www.amazon.com/4500PSI-Regulator-Pressure-2000PSI-paintball/dp/B06XBV3GRP%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAIP33U72F7W6H6DOQ%26tag%3Dwoodfurnitu0b-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB06XBV3GRP)
You will then need the ninja fill station for paintball tanks. LINKY (http://m.ebay.com/itm/Ninja-PCP-Airgun-Fill-Station-For-High-Pressure-Output-Regulators-/272479474146)
ORDERED and ORDERED!
WEEEEEEEEEE......
OH God... Slippery!
Hey there is Alice....
Bye Alice!
:P
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I think it'd be funny to line up all the old PCP'ers here with their pumps and have a race.
Could probably get MILLIONS of views on youtubes comedy channel !!
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Something tells me you are younger than I.
I look at it as a "Cardio Work Out"
AND I can do it smokin a Cigarette,... kinda like the treadmill... and the Bike.
:-[
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Something tells me you are younger than I.
I look at it as a "Cardio Work Out"
But I can do it smokin a Cigarette,.
:-[
Not much. I could do it, but I'm sure I'd look funny too ;D
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I counted the number of pumps to fill this evening, it took 55 to go from 1000 to 2000 psi! Yes, it is cardio, so owning a PCP AG is obviously good for you! That's what I'm telling my wife anyway...
I did get it sighted in this evening with both the iron sights and the scope. I ditched the CVLife and swapped it with the Bug Buster from my Swarm. The CVLife was too long, it cast a shadow on the fiber optic rear sight. The bug Buster is short so now the rear sight now glows as it should. It is a short scope, so I have to flip the front ring so I had room to load a pellet. Not sure how long I'll keep this setup, but for now it will have to do.
I did receive my $30 Ebay LDC and my Rocker1 LDC today. I did not try them on the Maximus, and I'm liking the iron sights, so I'll have to see if I can figure out a way to keep the front sight and the LDC.
I did try both on my 2240 and quickly determined I'm going to have to get a 10" barrel for it if I'm going to put a LDC on it. In it's current configuration, I have to remove the LDC to insert a CO2 cartridge! Again, it needs a way to retain the front sight.
As for sound, but silenced the 2240, which is LOUD in it's standard configuration! I can say the Rocker1 LDC is probably twice as quiet as the Ebay LDC! Definitely better quality, and probably weighs twice as much as well. The Ebay LDC only have 1 set screw to secure it to the barrel, the Rocker1 has 3. With the Rocker1 LdC, it sounds like a silenced pistol does in the movies! Just a quiet pffft, then the slap of the pellet hitting the target! super cool sound!
Here are a couple picture of my Maximus, the two sight pictures, and a picture of the Bay LDC on my 2240:
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Outstanding Paul!
Those rings are SWEET! Just look at all that room to load a pellet. Good choice to swap the front one around.
And thanks for the info on the Rocker1 Moderator.
I have a TKO on my 2300 so I think I know what you mean about "pfft". If I could get that on a Maximus that would be great.
Much appreciated.
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Outstanding Paul!
Those rings are SWEET! Just look at all that room to load a pellet. Good choice to swap the front one around.
And thanks for the info on the Rocker1 Moderator.
I have a TKO on my 2300 so I think I know what you mean about "pfft". If I could get that on a Maximus that would be great.
Much appreciated.
I think the Rocker1 LDC will make the Maximus silent! My unmoderated 2240 is twice as loud as the Maximus, so a Rocker1 moderated Maximus should be twice as quiet as the 2240 with the Rocker1!
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The Rocker LDC does wonders , , all that is left in my maximus is a little ping that I plan on removing soon, with a bottle brush;)