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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: RAJOD on April 05, 2017, 01:43:23 AM
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I got an email from a company all excited about a new Bullpup PCP.
I was just thinking about why they make them for air guns. I know in military applications many do not like them. But many of the military cons do not apply to air guns.
Other than looks why would you want a bullpup for an air gun?
Here is a few pro cons I've heard for military applications. Mostly its to have a long barrel on a short gun but there are many cons to it too. Most of the cons appear to go away when used for a PCP.
(http://puu.sh/v9M8G/2159a51d73.jpg)
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I like the carbine style PCP rifles, such as the Talon, Marauder Pistol, SPA Varmint, and the Brocock Contour G6. But not the Bullpups.
The carbines generally have lower power and shot counts. But they're also lighter weight and less bulky than the often more powerful bullpups.
But for me, I'd like something of a more traditional rifle if I'm going to carry the weight of one in a bullpup. A standard rifle configuration just seems more natural to aim and I believe would be quicker on target and easier to shoot accurately at longer ranges from a field position.
Lots of guys love them. So to each his own.
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Think the compact part for hunting thicker areas would be nice.
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Pro:
Long barrel ~ powerful but still in a short package. Using a traditional air rifle with the equivalent power capabilities of it's bullpup counterpart, is going to be a much longer and cumbersome package.
About your cons:
I don't think that a well built bullpup is load to the shooter. My Cricket and Taipan are not.
The ejection of the cartridge problem, well, we're talking airguns not powder burners. We won't have that struggle. And we won't have the problem with the muzzle blast either. I can't speak toward the problems faced with a bullpup fire arm. I've had a probe o-ring go bad on my bullpup airgun. A little puff to the face it all I experienced.
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Well, PCP is what powered the original airguns, hundreds of years ago. So not a fad.
Bullpups are easier to handle when out and about, especially in woods or shooting offhand.
It's worth noting in the rifle silhouettes in your original post that the space behind the action on the M16 is NOT wasted space, like it would be in a traditional air rifle. The bolt recoils all the way back into the shoulder stock. If the Steyr AUG pictured has that same arrangement, it would have less range to recoil in, and therefore more felt recoil. So bullpups actually make MORE sense for airguns than automatic powderburners!
For something like a bolt action powderburner, I don't know if I'd want my head so close to the barrel/action, which contains tens or hundreds of thousands of PSI of pressure. It's bad enough having one's head BEHIND the action...
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Imo the only benefit the bullpup provides is a faster 1st shot while in the go, say like on patrol while carrying at the ready. Without the need to swing a long gun up and bring it on target, carrying bullpup at the ready, can be just be pointed out and brought on target in the manner you'd bring a pistol on target, I'm talking tactical shooting don't know how that transfers over to airguns just yet.
Then again that might just be my muscle memory making this happen so without any proof, I'm calling bs on myself 😄
I have a tactical background, non traditional and have never shot a pistol carbine worth its weight in carry, much rather carry long gun + pistol.
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A longer barrel has some light advantages on PB bullpups, but with air rifles, more barrel and a longer cylinder in a still compact package has significant advantage in shot count and power production. I converted my Gen 1 Marauder to a bullpup, and it became a much more usable gun not being so front heavy. I honestly prefer carbines, too, but many bullpups perform more like a larger rifle since the cylinder and barrel can be longer than the carbines. Considering that no matter what kind of advancements we see in efficiency, more air volume will always give more shots, and a longer barrel (up to a point) will give more power, I don't think this is just a fad. The market may be getting a little over-saturated with bullpups, but I definitely think we'll have plenty of quality bullpup PCPs to choose from for a long time.
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Well, PCP is what powered the original airguns, hundreds of years ago. So not a fad.
No I meant "is the Bullup style gun is a fad" not PCP. They took a military gun and turned into a PCP. The Pros/Cons I listed are for the real Fired arm not the PCP.
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I would say they both have there places. I have both a Daystate Regal XL .22 that is super light and compact but still a traditional rifle with good shot count, power and quiet. Great carry gun in the fields. However what I like about bullpups is there even more compact and can be more powerful and more shots than a carbine. Even with a 6.5" LDC added on my Veteran not only is it more powerful but it's still shorter and it's quieter than my Daystate! It's easy to carry in the field as well even though it's not quite as light it doesn't feel bad cause your center of gravity is much closer to your body. FWIW I enjoy both styles and wouldn't trade those guns for anything but don't think I can choose between them either. I enjoy both carbine and bullpups.
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Comparing bullpup firearms to airguns may satisfy some of you, but I cannot abide by the comparison myself since I'd never consider an airgun for tactical or combat operations. This is nothing but a subjective question about preference, and while it is an interesting discussion, I don't know if it really accomplishes anything other than give people something to argue about. Still, we all enjoy mental exercise, so... :D :D :D
I have hunted in heavy brush using a 76" longbow and a hip quiver with 34" arrows, so maybe I'm more sensitive to heavy brush, brambles, and snags, but one of the best benefits I know of with a bullpup is ergonomics. There's less perceived carry weight. You have less mass hanging way out in front, so it balances easier. The shorter overall length is fine in close quarters or in heavy brush, and it also transports WAY easier. A smaller transport bag or case means it attracts a lot less attention during transportation.
Regarding action/movement etc by the face... I'm used to a longbow releasing heavy arrows literally at my cuspid (my left upper cuspid is my anchor point), so some action by my face is a non-issue.
I'm literally completely indifferent to the configuration- my only desire is it shoots accurately, as I've had to work with a lot of non-ergonomic and uncomfortable tools in very grueling conditions- such as using a Hole-Hawg one-handed on a ladder thirty feet up, or using an Hilti PowerLoad upside down suspended from the girders forty feet above rushing water. I just want a tool that I can use without a lot of heartache or muscle fatigure, and the bullpups I've handled all accomplish that.
EDIT: my current hunting bow is so-called horse-bow; only 51 inches long strung, but it has the same draw length and power as my longbow. Just a whole lot easier to maneuver in brush. So I do put a lot of value in maneuverability.
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Myself, prefer carbines. :)
The main advantage for pcp bullpups is the ability to have a longer barrel and airtube in a more easily handled package. The heavy weight is more distributed. So, the advantages are geared toward higher powered airguns. Best for hunting through heavy cover and offhand shooting.
Dis-advantages include having a large barrel to scope offset, trigger not as good (assuming a linkage), face is closer to the action (noise), and cocking/shooting, takes some time to get use to, and generally, not as comfortable as a rifle or carbine.
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After hauling a marauder around the woods for a year, I pined for a bullpup. I eventually bought a mutant, and I love it.
Not just in the woods, but it is all around easier to shoot - from my table, sitting on my stoop, or under a tree or in a blind.
Plus it has more power, more shots, and weighs less. No cons there!
I did happen to somehow discharge it with the cocking lever not closed all the way. Felt like someone punched me in the cheek under my eye for a minute, and left me very confused as to what just happened for a few seconds (and the crow flew off) but no damage other than my ego.
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I'd say it simply affords you the performance of a full length rifle but in a compact package. The one con for me with my bullpup is that it isn't quite as comfortable to shoot as a rifle. There just isn't any way to get settled right in to take the shot. Trigger is great though and I don't hear or feel the action when the gun is fired. I suppose those things will depend on the bullpup. My scope is 2.7 inches above the bore which may be a disadvantage for hunting but for targets and plinking it matters not one bit.
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After hauling a marauder around the woods for a year, I pined for a bullpup. I eventually bought a mutant, and I love it.
Not just in the woods, but it is all around easier to shoot - from my table, sitting on my stoop, or under a tree or in a blind.
Plus it has more power, more shots, and weighs less. No cons there!
I did happen to somehow discharge it with the cocking lever not closed all the way. Felt like someone punched me in the cheek under my eye for a minute, and left me very confused as to what just happened for a few seconds (and the crow flew off) but no damage other than my ego.
Yea when I first saw one they just looked goofy but thinking there has to be advantage.
Close call on lever hitting you. So they are easier to walk around with but I don't get why they are more powerful? Thought that was just how the gun is valved.
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First time I saw a Bullpup I thought it was about the coolest looking thing I'd seen in some time... Then I got to thinking about it... I just don't want all that going on right next to my face. Besides.... I'm a long hair. I'm sure a lot of guys enjoy the heck out of them... just not for me.
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Bullpups are hands down the winner if shooting from a vehicle. Try to maneuver a Mrod from the driver's side to the passenger's side and you see what I mean. That led me to getting my dad a Cricket compact. Best gift I've ever gotten him.
Edit: See post #20 for clarification.
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I've hunted with Pups for years and I've owned more than 1/2 dz of them.
What I like about Pups is that you can carry them with a one point sling and you have the ability to use our hands when moving in difficult terrain, I also like the fact that you can pack them away easily ( but than again you can pack a rifle with a foldable stock just as easy ) .....as for maneuvering in thick brush ? ...I hunt very, very thick areas and I find no difference between a Pup and a Carbine in maneuverability.
However I believe there's a huge downside to Pups,
......by the nature of the gun you will have to mount the scope higher that I like and when hunting in places where distance isn't set that is very much
detrimental to good accuracy.
My favorite design at the moment is something on the lines of the Cricket Mini-Carbine style
[img width= height= alt=Image result for cricket mini carbine]http://www.krale-schietsport.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/k/a/kalibrgun-cricket-minicarabine.jpg[/img]
In my Opinion it's the best compromise at the time being, still short but lets you get the scope nice and low :)
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LOL.... that's funny... everytime I hear about or see a bullpup I think of Manny and his hog hunts.
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Bullpups are hands down the winner if shooting from a vehicle. Try to maneuver a Mrod from the driver's side to the passenger's side and you see what I mean. That led me to getting my dad a Cricket compact. Best gift I've ever gotten him.
I think it's against the law to shoot from a vehicle here, except I think you can hunt waterfowl from a boat.
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Bullpups are hands down the winner if shooting from a vehicle. Try to maneuver a Mrod from the driver's side to the passenger's side and you see what I mean. That led me to getting my dad a Cricket compact. Best gift I've ever gotten him.
I think it's against the law to shoot from a vehicle here, except I think you can hunt waterfowl from a boat.
Bullpups are also great when shooting from a hide. Downside as Manny said is the high scope line which requires more judgement for short range shots. From 15-20 yards on it doesn't really matter. They are less comfortable to shoot from the bench though, at least to me.
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Bullpups are hands down the winner if shooting from a vehicle. Try to maneuver a Mrod from the driver's side to the passenger's side and you see what I mean. That led me to getting my dad a Cricket compact. Best gift I've ever gotten him.
I think it's against the law to shoot from a vehicle here, except I think you can hunt waterfowl from a boat.
Understand that for taking game animals regulated under the fish and game code. Didn't think it was an issue for nongame. Honestly never even thought it would be regulated but I'll look into it.
Edit. I'll be darned. Quick look and I can't find an exception for rats of any kind. Let's just assume I was referring to target shooting.
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:-X
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I'm wielding an at44-10 with a bipod, hawk's largest scope and a sling. Think it weighs in at a ton. May have to check out one of these bullpup things. Lol.
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I'm wielding an at44-10 with a bipod, hawk's largest scope and a sling. Think it weighs in at a ton. May have to check out one of these bullpup things. Lol.
Or get a smaller scope and lose the bipod.
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I've heard Manny and others bring up the scope height "problem" with bullpups before. I don't see it. If you have your aim points worked out within your reticle, then you're kosher. Look at all the super shooting out there with high scoped bullpups from different yardages. The guys have their ballistics worked out. Now, if you just want to see and shoot without thinking of distance or hold over, then yeah, put the scope right on the bore.
I really do like the look of the Cricket Mini Carbine. They need to offer it in .25.
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I've heard Manny and others bring up the scope height "problem" with bullpups before. I don't see it. If you have your aim points worked out within your reticle, then you're kosher. Look at all the super shooting out there with high scoped bullpups from different yardages. The guys have their ballistics worked out. Now, if you just want to see and shoot without thinking of distance or hold over, then yeah, put the scope right on the bore.
I really do like the look of the Cricket Mini Carbine. They need to offer it in .25.
Yes, but even a minor cant can have a drastic effect. I put a little level right in front of my scope on the weaver rail that I can check with one eye to make sure I am not tilting. It happens a surprising amount, even when the reticle looks 'even' through the scope.
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Yeah the scope height is my only drawback on a bullpup. Even so I got mine on my Veteran as low as I could get it at about 2.2". Cant issues who woulda known?! My bubble level must have gotten bumped and I was missing birds at 60yds cause it was shooting an inch to the left. Corrected it and had 3 headshots in a row on dove at 80yds then at 130yds hit a Ground squirrel. That cant is something you gotta be serious about for longer range shooting
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Cant should be a concern with anything you are shooting. That's a given and a proper level is a must.
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I'm wielding an at44-10 with a bipod, hawk's largest scope and a sling. Think it weighs in at a ton. May have to check out one of these bullpup things. Lol.
Craftsman Vit makes an amazing bullpup kit for AT44s. You might check it out. Visually it is the same as the Marauder one in my signature if you want to take a look.
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Comparing bullpup firearms to airguns may satisfy some of you, but I cannot abide by the comparison myself since I'd never consider an airgun for tactical or combat operations. This is nothing but a subjective question about preference, and while it is an interesting discussion, I don't know if it really accomplishes anything other than give people something to argue about. Still, we all enjoy mental exercise, so... :D :D :D
I would hope that no one would be using air guns in combat or tactical operations. I just have logged more than a few hours in tactical shooting situations and was just expressing what the fit of a bullpup vs traditional rifle felt like to me, which was why I mentioned muscle memory.
Furthermore this is simply an open discussion not an argument in any means, there are so many skilled traditional hunters out there, I'm not one of them I learned shoot a little different than most, and have a little different outlook which was all I was trying to share.
I've hunted with Pups for years and I've owned more than 1/2 dz of them.
What I like about Pups is that you can carry them with a one point sling and you have the ability to use our hands when moving in difficult terrain, I also like the fact that you can pack them away easily ( but than again you can pack a rifle with a foldable stock just as easy ) .....as for maneuvering in thick brush ? ...I hunt very, very thick areas and I find no difference between a Pup and a Carbine in maneuverability.
However I believe there's a huge downside to Pups,
......by the nature of the gun you will have to mount the scope higher that I like and when hunting in places where distance isn't set that is very much
detrimental to good accuracy.
My favorite design at the moment is something on the lines of the Cricket Mini-Carbine style
[img width= height= alt=Image result for cricket mini carbine]http://www.krale-schietsport.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/k/a/kalibrgun-cricket-minicarabine.jpg[/img]
In my Opinion it's the best compromise at the time being, still short but lets you get the scope nice and low :)
Manny,
I like my scopes low as well currently I'm using the stock rail with lowest rings I had, but I have a couple different rails on the way to see if I can get it just a tad lower, but it sits pretty low if you ask me. My .25 scope rides just as low.
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Alot of the bullpups are coming standard with a 20moa rail now. That should help counteract the scope height a little shouldn't it, or no?
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I'm wielding an at44-10 with a bipod, hawk's largest scope and a sling. Think it weighs in at a ton. May have to check out one of these bullpup things. Lol.
Don't just assume that because it's shorter it's automatically lighter,
if the action is the same the actual Pup stock isn't much lighter if any at all, also you have extra parts like the rail unit and trigger linkage on the Pups,...so the smaller package don't automatically translate to a lighter rifle
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I'm wielding an at44-10 with a bipod, hawk's largest scope and a sling. Think it weighs in at a ton. May have to check out one of these bullpup things. Lol.
A Mutant Shorty + Clearidge RM 3-9x32 scope weighs 8 pounds, or slightly less. I do have a Versapod adapter on mine. Good thing about Versapod bipods is that they are very easy to attach and detach.
Then, again, I only get a max of 28 FPE from the Shorty, as opposed to 50+ FPE possible from an at44 long platform.
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Alot of the bullpups are coming standard with a 20moa rail now. That should help counteract the scope height a little shouldn't it, or no?
I was unaware of anyone other than the new Taipan Veteran. I think American Air Arms might as well...?
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i have standard rifles and a bullpup, there really are times where a bullpup is needed lol