GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: JoeV on April 03, 2017, 09:19:34 PM
-
Got the new gun today, and like any new dance partner, seeing what her moves are and adjusting accordingly.
Before taking the first shot I followed the airgundepot video and stripped her down and cleaned up the baffles and ran a bunch of patches through the barrel until they came out pretty clean. This was a good exercise to learn how to do this from the git go. I mounted a CenterPoint 4-16x40AO scope to be able to handle shots out to 75 yards.
Shot a couple of magazines of JSB King 25.4 pellets after zeroing the scope. Must admit I was pretty excited about this gun, so I wasn't taking the time I usually do when trying for tight groups. But out of nine shots, I still ended up with a cluster of seven shots a little over 3/8" center to center. I'm sure I'll be able to tighten this up.
The first magazine came out at 939 FPS, which is just under 50 FPE. I'm pleased.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2207.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2209.jpg)
-
Congrats, it'll be a great gun for ya I'm sure. Hatsans are never short on claimed power :D My long in .22 has been a real trooper for me, and never lets me down.
-
Now the fun begins. You are going to love it. With just a little tuning these things are all that and a cup of coffie. I'm not saying I like Hatsan rifles, but I have 5 of them. Love them all.
Jimmy
-
Now the fun begins. You are going to love it. With just a little tuning these things are all that and a cup of coffie. I'm not saying I like Hatsan rifles, but I have 5 of them. Love them all.
Jimmy
I have all three calibers of the 95 Vortex, plus the 125TH in .25 caliber. All perform beyond expectations, and this gun is no different. Not sure what tuning it would need, as it works fine out of the box. This gun should easily take care of most of my hunting needs out to 100 yards.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2212.jpeg)
-
They don't need a thing. Just shoot them and they get better as you know. I just made some adjustments to the springs to get the speed I wanted and polished the bores to get them as smooth as I can. They turn into lasers.
-
I got her out the other day to see what she would do at distances of 25, 50 and 75 yards. It wasn't pretty. Winds were blowing 10-20 mph from right to left across the shooting land, then changing to from behind the bench out to the target. Pellets spraying all over the place like it had an Optima scope on it.
Anyway, I've been working trying to get it down to an average speed of 850 FPS, because at the higher speeds she was a real air hog. I have absorbed most of the concepts and modifications from the Canadianairgun.com thread ( http://www.canadianairguns.com/showthread.php?656-Hatsan-25-cal-AT44S-10-Long-Mods (http://www.canadianairguns.com/showthread.php?656-Hatsan-25-cal-AT44S-10-Long-Mods) ), and learned a lot about what this gun is capable of.
I shot 11 clips last night trying to pull together a reasonable shot string, checking the air consumption after each clip. I'm waiting on more JSB Kings to arrive, so I was using AA Diablo Field in 25.4 until they get here. Not at all pleased with how many pellets are flying all over the target, so a scope change is in order this weekend. Going to try one of the Hammers 3-9x40AO scopes on my other Hatsans. Also need to modify the hammer spring screw, as it's real loose and may be walking out. Going to see if I can find a set screw with a Nylok insert already in it, otherwise I'll do the mod myself.
Here are the last three clips before quitting for the night.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2227.jpg)
-
A 30 fps spread for 9 shots like you have in the first two strings (and close to that in the third) seems too much to me. The Air Arms pellets should have less variation between shots. I have a Nova in .25 that had a large bur in the barrel transfer port - caused all kinds of velocity and accuracy issues. Have you tried pushing a pellet thru and checking for it for irregularities?
-
A 30 fps spread for 9 shots like you have in the first two strings (and close to that in the third) seems too much to me. The Air Arms pellets should have less variation between shots. I have a Nova in .25 that had a large bur in the barrel transfer port - caused all kinds of velocity and accuracy issues. Have you tried pushing a pellet thru and checking for it for irregularities?
Not an easy thing to do with the side actuated bolt. Will have to check things out tomorrow when I have more time. Perhaps there's something else to check short of disassembling the entire breech.
Here's the patterns from the first eight clips before the three shown above, and the way I'm resting themgun. Based on how the gun is rested, the groups should be better than this. Sometimes they're tight, but there are just too many fliers for my liking. First thing is to swap out scopes tomorrow.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2223.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2225.jpg)
-
A 30 fps spread for 9 shots like you have in the first two strings (and close to that in the third) seems too much to me. The Air Arms pellets should have less variation between shots. I have a Nova in .25 that had a large bur in the barrel transfer port - caused all kinds of velocity and accuracy issues. Have you tried pushing a pellet thru and checking for it for irregularities?
Not an easy thing to do with the side actuated bolt. Will have to check things out tomorrow when I have more time. Perhaps there's something else to check short of disassembling the entire breech.
Here's the patterns from the first eight clips before the three shown above, and the way I'm resting themgun. Based on how the gun is rested, the groups should be better than this. Sometimes they're tight, but there are just too many fliers for my liking. First thing is to swap out scopes tomorrow.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2223.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2225.jpg)
It isn't that hard to pull the barrel so you can push a pellet through. Just remove the shroud, which you can probably do just by grabbing the shroud and unscrewing the whole thing by hand. If not, remove the baffle parts(pay attention to how they are in there), and there will be a 14mm nut that holds it in place. Then all you have is the two set screws that hold the barrel. On the newer guns they are on the side of the breech. We're talking less than 5 minutes to have the barrel out :)
-
Yeah...after I posted I realized that I had removed the barrel to clean it before shooting it. Busy weekend, so might get around to it next week.
-
A 30 fps spread for 9 shots like you have in the first two strings (and close to that in the third) seems too much to me. The Air Arms pellets should have less variation between shots. I have a Nova in .25 that had a large bur in the barrel transfer port - caused all kinds of velocity and accuracy issues. Have you tried pushing a pellet thru and checking for it for irregularities?
Thanks for the suggestion. I took your advice of pushing a pellet through the barrel, after switching scopes and having the same tight/scattered groups.
I removed the shroud and baffles, then chambered an AA Diablo 25.4 gr pellet using the bolt. I removed the barrel from the breech, and measured the pellet seating at .648 from the back of the barrel to the back of the skirt, using the depth gauge on my digital calipers. I marked that on the cleaning rod, then slowly pushed the pellet through the rifling for about 4.25"(marked the cleaning rod again), at which time the pellet appeared to disengage from the rifling and go into a free fall for approximately 15" (marked the cleaning rod again). At that point there was engagement with the rifling for maybe .25", then it went into free fall until engaging the skirt with the rifling at .503 from the end of the barrel (measured .191 from the face of the barrel to the face of the pellet, plus thelength of the pellet of .312). I repeated this three times with a fresh pellet each time, and achieved the same results each time (hope this doesn't classify me as insane for doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results ;) ) By freefall I mean that the weight of the cleaning rod was all it took for the pellet to move through the barrel with no assistance from me.
So, my question at this point is...is this normal? Should there be so much disengagement from the rifling that the pellet has no contact with the rifling for this great of a distance, then so little engagement just before exiting the barrel?
My next question would be that if this is not normal, should I take it up with Hatsan USA for a barrel exchange, or just deal with AirGun Depot where I bought the gun?
I sit here anxiously awaiting enlightenment from those who might have had a similar problem with their AT44-10 PCP.
-
I would push the pellet in just a few inches from loading, and then push it back out backwards to see if there is any damage to it. That is just to make sure there isn't a burr on the barrel port or something. The barrel is choked, so it should get tight towards the very end of the barrel. Other than that I would clean and polish the barrel. I'm not that sure about the "freefall" areas in the barrel..
If you can, shoot it without the shroud to see if the groups tighten up. It is possible that the pellets could be clipping on the baffles in the "QE" section.
-
Neither my .22 nor my .25 Hatsan barrels have the "freefall" you describe. Personally I would either return the rifle or get the barrel exchanged. It sounds like something went wrong with the tooling of your barrel. It definately should take more than the weight of the cleaning rod to push the the pellets thru. At what distance did you shoot the groups you posted?
-
Curtis, imshoot at 12 yards in my basement.
I checked my 4 Hatsan springers, and none of them have this "free fall" issue. They all require force to move the pellet from breech to exit.
After taking SWMBO out to dinner and a little shopping, I went back to the bench to ponder this problem. I removed the shroud and baffles, then shot a clip. Shazam! YES, that's 9 shots in three holes!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2233.jpg)
I carefully examined the baffles, and found that the the inner plastic baffle had tiny marks around the inside edge of the small (exit) hole. The hole was 5/16" so I took a "Q" drill and opened up both baffles, then shot another clip.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2231.jpg)
Not as tight as the barrel w/o the shroud, but still a respectable 9-shot group.
So I load up another clip, top off the air back to 150 bar, and everything goes to pot. I'm had to walk away before i did anything stupid!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2232.jpg)
-
Feel your pain. I've had to do the turn and walk myself (more than once). Patience wins in the end and when it all clicks the previous frustrations fade away. Still think you should get a new barrel or rifle before it's too late to return.
-
Feel your pain. I've had to do the turn and walk myself (more than once). Patience wins in the end and when it all clicks the previous frustrations fade away. Still think you should get a new barrel or rifle before it's too late to return.
In the morning I going to email Hatsan and AGD. I would prefer to just replace the barrel, but if they want to do a complete swap, I'll do whatever they choose. Either way I'm out of service, and I'm not wasting any more pellets. I'll keep you updated as to the progress.
Thanks to all for the advice.
-
As Kenny Rogers once said you gotta know when to hold em and know when to hold em and you know the rest. If you have poor accuracy and a new rifle return to sender and start over fresh
-
I sent an email to AGD this morning. Since the gun came from them I'll give them the opportunity to decide which way we go with this. I also referred them to this thread, since all the targets and other data are documented here. I know they periodically check here, so I didn't think they would mind getting the info here. They've been quick to respond in the past, meaning with 24-48 hours.
-
Let us know how it goes. I'm concidering Airgun Depot for my next purchase.
-
Let us know how it goes. I'm concidering Airgun Depot for my next purchase.
They are very good to deal with, especially since they are owned by PyramyAir! I have had two issues with two different guns, and they were resolved within a few days to my satisfaction. I do not hesitate to recommend them.
My AT44 came from them, via Amazon. Never hurts to check who is supplying specials to Amazon.
-
Pyramyd Air is my go-to for all things air gun. I've been very happy with their customer service. I want to get at least one "high end" air rifle in the future and am leaning towards an FX 500 royale or maybe a Mutant. Unfortuneatly PA does not carry them. I knew that AGD is affiliated with PA so I am glad to hear that the apple did not fall far from the tree.
-
***UPDATE***
AGD got back to me this afternoon, and they are exchanging the gun for another one. Should have the shipping label sometime tomorrow.
I got together with two of my brothers tonight, and we discussed the AT44. My older brother is a retired mechanical engineer, and younger brother is 63, and has been a gunsmith for most of his life since apprenticing with a gunsmith when he got out of high school. His knowledge on firearms is second to none, but his knowledge of pellet guns is almost nil. He is also a master machinist.
While discussing the barrel situation for the AT44, the younger brother had some insight that I had not thought of before. Since the first 4-1/4" of the barrel reacts as a normal rifled barrel while pushing a pellet through it, and the again at the last .603" of the barrel, his thought is that the barrel may have been reversed when it was machined to fit the breech...provided it was rifled before machining. I read somewhere that Lothar-Walther chokes their barrels the last 6", and Hatsan chokes all of their PCP barrels (http://www.hatsan.com.tr/en_at_44_10_qe.html (http://www.hatsan.com.tr/en_at_44_10_qe.html)), but does not say how long the choke is. If that's the case, it's possible the blank was reversed before machining. That's the only plausible reason for the 4-1/4" of continuous rifling on the breech side. Even so, that does not account for the free fall section of the barrel.
Methinks I've beat this horse enough, and now I'll just go through the exchange process which should take at least 10 days from them getting the bad gun, going through the inspection and shipping the new one from Utah. It's 5-6 days via FedEx Ground.
Hopefully the next gun will give me the performance I had hoped for. I'll keep my fingers crossed!
-
That would not surprise me at all Joe.
I have 2 AT44's. On is a .25 the other a .22 but both can hit a house fly at 45 yards with JSB's.
-
That would not surprise me at all Joe.
I have 2 AT44's. On is a .25 the other a .22 but both can hit a house fly at 45 yards with JSB's.
That's the performance I'm hoping for, which is why I chose it. All of my other Hatsans are tack drivers, so I'm expecting the 44 to play well with the rest of the "herd!" 😂
-
I got an Air Venturi compressor coming.
We gonna have to get a shoot set up in Ohio soon!
Lot's of Ohio Guys around now days.
;)
-
I got an Air Venturi compressor coming.
We gonna have to get a shoot set up in Ohio soon!
Lot's of Ohio Guys around now days.
;)
I'm a new guy here, but down in the Portsmouth OH area. Wouldn't mind to visit a shoot, a long drive wouldn't bother me if there was some good smallmouth fishing streams as a bonus!
-
If the barrel did get reversed and the choked end is now sqeezing the pellets at the breech, that could explain the pellet being loose through the center part of the barrel. Guess it's all conjecture at this point. Hope you get a good one on round two.
-
I got an Air Venturi compressor coming.
We gonna have to get a shoot set up in Ohio soon!
Lot's of Ohio Guys around now days.
;)
I'm game! I'm retired and pretty flexible as far as time goes. As long as it's not 9-9-17, we're good. That's my wife's birthday and our sons wedding day. The 10th would be fine! 😂😂😂
-
If the barrel did get reversed and the choked end is now sqeezing the pellets at the breech, that could explain the pellet being loose through the center part of the barrel. Guess it's all conjecture at this point. Hope you get a good one on round two.
👍 Didn't think about that. Makes perfect sense to me...deform then free fall. BINGO!
-
Just got my FedEx notification that the replacement gun should be delivered tomorrow. Here's hoping this one is fully functional and has a good barrel. Crossing my fingers....
-
I look forward to your report as I am considering going with a AT44 Long in .25 instead of a Marauder. Here's hoping you get a good one!
-
This gun left Draper, UT on 4/19, and now has just been rescheduled for delivery for the third time. Even though it arrived at the Local hub this morning at 5:20am, it won't be delivered until tomorrow. That's eight days in transit.
Either I'm extremely unfortunate when it comes to shipments via FedEx Ground, or they really don't have their stuff together. It would be my guess that the deals struck with FedEx Ground are extremely beneficial to the retailer, but horrible for the customer. But eight days for 1,758 miles??? I can drive to California from Cleveland in five days.
<Rant Off> Time to go find something else to do today while it's raining all day.
-
ROFLMBO!!! FedEx must have heard my rant. Just got another notification that it's been rescheduled again for delivery today. I guess I'll believe it when I see it. 😆😫😆😫
-
Tuesday is their Monday ?
-
Fedex just plain stinks often times IMO. People complain incessantly about USPS but for me I start wondering when I will get my item when I see that blue and orange logo.
-
Hoping this one is a keeper. So far it's shooting as I would expect. Just need to tweek the power a little to get a better shot count. Taking it out tomorrow to sight it in at distance. Hopefully I'll have some good results to post.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2298.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2297.jpg)
(http://://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2297.jpg)
-
I wonder if these tend to have the same accuracy issues caused by the shroud that the Marauders have?
-
I noticed on my .22 short QE that when I tightened down the shroud retaining nut the barrel/shroud assembly would shift off of the the axis the barrel had without the shroud tighten on. Seems that the shroud was getting squeezed between the retaining nut and the breech block and messing up the alignment. I solved it by removing about an 1/8" off of the breech end of the shroud to relieve the stress + added a spacer (o-ring) under the baffle end cap to keep everything from rattling and in place. I also removed the upper half of the barrel band; leaving the lower half to cradle the air tube. The end result took my 10 shot groups from 1" at 50 yds down to 5/8".
-
Sadly, this gun is doing the same things the last one did. Group nice in the basement, but on the bench at 25 and 50 yards it's a bonofide looser. When pushing a pellet from the breech, this barrel is exactly like the last one with about 4" of tight engagement at the breech end, then the free fall to about 15" with engagement for a touch, then tight for about 5/8" at the muzzle. Here are the targets before going to the outdoor range, and at 25 & 50 yards. Totally unacceptable, particularly the way the gun is being held. Zero movement by my, just a trigger squeeze. I also now have some nicks on the ID of the plastic baffles, meaning the pellet is not traveling true as it leaves the barrel.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2313.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2312.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_4744.jpg)
Here is the pattern in the basement after the outdoor shoot, using the same rest I used outside.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2314.jpg)
I spoke to Pyramyd Air this morning when I ordered a part for my fill nozzle, and after a lengthy discussion, they suggested I contact Hatsan direct to see about a barrel swap. I believe that the inventory at AGD where's the gun came from, is all the same lot, and will have the same issues with barrels. I'll see where it goes from here.
-
I can only imagine your frustration level. My first pcp was an at44 qe .22 short. It was accurate and responded well to my newbie tuning attempts. I was sold on Hatsan. Then I got my Nova. Have to admit my opinion of Hatsan has been tarnished a bit. I have had a fair share of issues with the Nova. The machining of the barrel being a majority of it. I have put a lot of time into tweaking it and it has gotten better step by step. Think Hatsan might need to spend a little more time and attention to what is probably the most important part of the rifle. Really hope Hatsan takes care of your issue quickly and has the rest of the rifles in that lot checked out.
-
Can you try a group with the shroud removed?
-
Sorry for the trouble you are having. I have the same gun in .22 and it too was all over the place with some pellets. I took the shroud baffles out and it tightened up well.
It seemed to be pellet picky, Shot JSB 25 gr .22 well but the 15.9s had quite a few tumblers.
- Took copper wire .22 rimfire rod and scrubbed the bore
- Cleaned the barrel with goo gone (yellow liquid) till patches came out clean
- Put a regulator on it which keep the fps in a tighter range.
After that it shot jsb 18s pretty well but still a few tumblers 7/8" group of 10 at 70 yards. The 15.9s are still a little inaccurate though. I feel it can do better.
Some of the issue were the baffles and maybe the dirty barrel and fps. Not sure why a gun can shoot 7 great shots then get 3 out of left field. My Daystate with the same pellets does not have nearly as many tumblers. Need a day without high wind to test it more.
I'm curious if a new barrel cures the problem.
-
I received a shipment of JSB 25.4's from PA today, so I'm taking it out tomorrow morning before emailing Hatsan. The weather is calling for sunny with 55F, and 4-5 mph variable winds. I'll see if they shoot differently than the Air Arms Fiels 25.4's, but I'm not holding out for much difference. The shroud nut is barely snug, so there's no chance of torquing the barrel. As to removing the shroud, that defeats the reason I bought the QE. If the shroud is a problem, then I don't want the gun. I have a Hatsan 125TH in .25, and the 95 Vortex in .25, both which are both too loud for my liking. The QE is very quiet compare to this two.
-
As to removing the shroud, that defeats the reason I bought the QE. If the shroud is a problem, then I don't want the gun. I have a Hatsan 125TH in .25, and the 95 Vortex in .25, both which are both too loud for my liking. The QE is very quiet compare to this two.
Yes I agree on the shroud. I took it off as an experiment to see if it made any difference. It did. I was wondering if they had the baffles in backwards, or maybe slightly out of alignment. I put them back in. I wonder if that port hole in the shroud removes back pressure or what part that plays with any air turbulence in the silencer end of it.
Not sure if it was clipping the baffles or maybe they were not perfectly aligned. Its shooting better now but it seems to have a narrow range of FPS for its sweet spot for the 18s. Its under 900 fps. 800-860 range, did quite a bit of testing with the chrony. Found a good fps but now the hammer screw lowers power after 100 shots so have to pull it apart to lock tite it.
I did not pull the barrel yet, just wire brushed it just short of the port then pulled patches using a nylon line from the breach end. Was just saving time from having to take it apart.
-
As to removing the shroud, that defeats the reason I bought the QE.
Just a simple test. The shroud is well known to push the barrel around on the Marauders. Loose, tight with re-machining, it still does it. Most guys end up putting foam in the barrel band to try to pin the shroud down to hold it still. but the Hatsan doesn't have the band at the muzzle like the Marauder. And this is a bandaid anyway that still leads to poi shifts as the air tube flexxes down versus pressure.
.
Just try it with the shroud off. If it shoots better without the shroud, then we can come up with a fix. Such as I am doing with my Marauder by cutting the shroud down and rethreading so that the rear mount is repositioned to 6 inches from the muzzle so that you still get all of the quietness but the shroud no longer has any leverage to bind up on the threads and o rings to push the barrel around.
-
Really sorry to read of Joe's troubles with the .25 AT44 Long, especially since my refurb .25 Bullboss from Hatsan USA is on the FedEx truck for delivery today. Same rifle in different clothes. :-\ I've got the AT44 Short in .22 and it's a tack driver. We shall see. Good luck Joe!
Ed
-
I seriously think it is the qe shroud causing your problems. It seems that 99% of people with a non qe version own a tack driver, and people with the qe versions have a LOT more problems with accuracy. I recently passed on an amazing deal from fieldsupply on a qe At44 tactical because it was a qe version. Strangely, the qe versions of the Hatsan rifles were on sale for a much larger discount than the non qe versions. Almost looks like Hatsan is prepping to discontinue the qe platform or at least fieldsupply is dumping them.
My at44 short in 22 flavor was a tack driver right out of the box with cheap cp domes. Now it's a tack driver with jsb 16gr and all I did was up the fps a tad with the hammer screw.
-
I seriously think it is the qe shroud causing your problems. It seems that 99% of people with a non qe version own a tack driver, and people with the qe versions have a LOT more problems with accuracy. I recently passed on an amazing deal from fieldsupply on a qe At44 tactical because it was a qe version. Strangely, the qe versions of the Hatsan rifles were on sale for a much larger discount than the non qe versions. Almost looks like Hatsan is prepping to discontinue the qe platform or at least fieldsupply is dumping them.
My at44 short in 22 flavor was a tack driver right out of the box with cheap cp domes. Now it's a tack driver with jsb 16gr and all I did was up the fps a tad with the hammer screw.
Sound like Barnaby Jones air gun sleuth.
So you have determined that the QE models have targeting issues due to the engineering of the Silencer?
The gun without the Silencer is way too loud and like the OP said that was the entire point of getting one. It very well could be the issue. The actual barrel on these airguns is so thin it could flex. I wish they made them like .22 rim fire barrels, so thick they can't bend.
If true the fix could be as simple as loosening the bolt inside the silencers. That would reduce any bending of the inner barrel due to the shroud.
-
If true the fix could be as simple as loosening the bolt inside the silencers. That would reduce any bending of the inner barrel due to the shroud.
Loose is probably better. Here is a video of a Marauder comparing various tighnesses of the shroud to a group with no shroud. The no shroud performance could be duplicated while maintaining the quietness by cutting down the shroud and moving the rear shroud mount closer to the end of the muzzle so that the shroud has no leverage to push the barrel around after every shot.
.
.
https://youtu.be/yB_YaSbnzN0
.
.
-
Something like this.
.
.
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a555/stanrogers1776/IMG_20160630_081925_zpstdibffym.jpg)
.
.
-
I also know a slightly warped barrel will compound any alignment issues. I've seen a few Hatsans that the barrel wasn't perfectly straight on. I swapped out the barrel on my bullboss on my dime, and that also alleviated the air cylinder resting against the bottome of the shroud. It turned out the barrel was just slightly warped, and I never knew it. The warped barrel may normally present itself as problem on a non shrouded gun, since there are no clearance issues and it will still likely shoot well.
-
Well, I believe the shroud & QE baffles are the culprit to the accuracy of this gun. Here is the final sequence of targets that I'll present, as I'm through with this gun. This first target is in the basement at 12 yards. The shroud nut is barely tight holding the shroud in place. I charged the cylinder to 150 bar and shot one clip, with all 9 shots somewhat raggedy within the zero range of -.51" at 12 yards. I'm on my full bench rest, and felt the group should have been tighter.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_4750.jpg)
Today I went outside to my friend's property and spent the next three hours and 126 JSB King 25.4 pellets shooting groups that I'll narrate. All bulls are 9-shot groups.
Target sheet #1, all shots at 25 yards with full bench rest. Bulls 1&2 were shot from the the residual fill from the night before. Bull 1 is a respectable group, but bull 2 is feeling the effects of diminishing air volume as the velocity changes and vortices in the baffles alter the ballistics of the pellet due to change in pressure within the baffles. This will be the pattern for all future bulls. Bull 3 was after topping off to 150 bar, shows how the first shots don't like the climb in velocity, bull 4 is a nice group, but getting to bull 5 shows the same effect as bull 3.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2343.jpg)
Target sheet #3 is telling. Topping off to 150 bar and removing the shroud, bull 1 shows a huge variance in POI without the shroud. Despite being high and left, the group is tighter than previous first clip groups with the shroud in place. I put the shroud back on with the shroud nut just "finger tight," topped off the air and shot a nice group with the first clip.
Feeling confident that the shroud problem is alleviated, I moved the target out to 40 yards, used a 1/2 mil holdover, and shot an abysmal 9-shot clip into bull 3. Feeling frustrated at this point, but I'm determined to continue. I topped off air again and shot a terrible first clip group into bull 4. I loaded another clip and shot two shots at the center bull to determine where it was actually hitting, then used 3/4 mil holdover, and shot a typical second clip group.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_4752.jpg)
Be patient, I'm down to the last target sheet! 😜
I moved the target out to 50 yards, and shot bull 1 with clip 3 from the last fill, getting the expected poor results with 1-1/4 mil holdover. Topped off the air, and bulls 2, 3 & 4 gave expected results of poor, good and final poor.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2345.jpg)
In the final analysis, this is a 9-shot gun. It's only on target for the sweet spot of 9 shots, and useless the rest of the time. I didn't do ny additional testing with the shroud off, because this is a QE, and I wanted a quiet gun. Is a moot point to prove that it shoots well without the shroud. I believe that the shroud and baffles design are what makes this gun shoot poorly. The airflow within the shroud reacts differently with the change in pressure as the velocity climbs and falls,coupled with a barrel that is choked at the breech instead of the muzzle, which may, or may not, contribute to this poor performance.
I'm open to any suggestion of what I may have missed or done differently, but I think I've proven that the QE has a problem. I seem to remember Baxter Walton (bwalton) shooting an At44-10 in one or more of his videos. I can't remember if it was a QE, but i do remember that it was modified to make it shoot accurately at longer distances.
Unless I hear that I've gone down the wrong path, I'm going to see about getting a refund on this gun. Based on some comments here, the QE is more hassle than it's worth. For $200+ Less money, my Walther Parrus .22 will outshoot this gun all,day long. I've got the squirrels in the freezer to prove it. All head shots out to 40-45 yards.
Thanks for listening to my rant, but with owning four other Hatsans that are all tack drivers, I really held out hope that this gun could be part of the inventory. Alas, it's not meant to be.
-
I've never had a problem like this with any of the QE Hatsans I've dealt with. As I mentioned earlier, I had one with a slightly warped barrel, but it was still more accurate than that. My AT-44 Long, Bullboss, others' AT44s, Galatians etc. have always been tack drivers for the most part. I think your barrel just isn't up to snuff :(
-
I think I figured out the issue with the QE tonight.
You need to take the shroud completely off and shoot it. With the shroud off it changed the POI around 2 feet at 70 yards. The reason? They left a washer off the front of the stock. That made it so the barrel with no shroud was still touching the top of the front barrel strap. So with the shroud on it was pushing the barrel down.
I inserted one large washer inside the stock (there is a round cut out for one) It needs it to push the barrel band up higher. With the washer in place the shroud can be slipped back on with no binding or bending of the barrel.
Then drilled out the silencer baskets (the pellets were clipping them)
Put it all back together and at least inside at 12 yards it was 9 of 10 pellet on pellet.
And it is still quite.
So shoot it with the shroud completely off. Then if it shoots well enough you can put it back together and not have the shroud flex the barrel at all.
Mine has one other issue too. I pulled the barrel out completely and found someone at Hatsan must have put a large set screw (larger than the ones that hold the barrel) and messed up the O rings. Can't be easily fixed so will need to get a new barrel.
Pellets clipping silencer
(http://puu.sh/vLgWH/7bbd7ded13.jpg)
Bad photo attempting to show that without the spacer washer the barrel band is not close to being aligned with the barrel. If you put it together it will flex the barrel.
(http://puu.sh/vLh76/020e269f7e.jpg)
The gap between the barrel and shroud should be enough to allow the shroud to slip in without any resistance, that was achieved by putting a washer in the stock.
(http://puu.sh/vLhaS/353180bf1b.jpg)
Here is the end of the barrel that goes into the breach. See how some large diameter screw scarred it up to the point the O rings are distorted. Anyone have an idea of how they did that at the factory? The diameter is too large for the set screws to have done it. There was some air blow by where the O rings meet that burr.
(http://puu.sh/vLhhM/5a5eb93291.jpg)
I'll test it out further in the next day or two. Sun went down but inside it was grouping much better. 8/10 hole in hole at 35 feet. Still gets a crazy flier 1 of 10 with JSB 18s.
I'm thinking Hatsan owes me a new barrel.
I'm not giving up on the gun just yet, but it is clear Hatsan has some quality control issues.
I love how easy it is to take the barrel out, adjust the hammer screw etc. But in the end the gun has to shoot well too.
-
JoeV,
I can see why you are frustrated on this gun. It really needs a regulator to keep the fps in a decent range. I did that and it now does 30+ shots in the 840-870 range with JSB 18s. Prior to that it had too large a range IMHO. The regulator was on sale at Midway for like 70.00.
So even if you got the barrel issue fixed you still might want the reg.
-
I think I figured out the issue with the QE tonight.
You need to take the shroud completely off and shoot it. With the shroud off it changed the POI around 2 feet at 70 yards. The reason? They left a washer off the front of the stock. That made it so the barrel with no shroud was still touching the top of the front barrel strap. So with the shroud on it was pushing the barrel down.
I inserted one large washer inside the stock (there is a round cut out for one) It needs it to push the barrel band up higher. With the washer in place the shroud can be slipped back on with no binding or bending of the barrel.
Then drilled out the silencer baskets (the pellets were clipping them)
Put it all back together and at least inside at 12 yards it was 9 of 10 pellet on pellet.
And it is still quite.
So shoot it with the shroud completely off. Then if it shoots well enough you can put it back together and not have the shroud flex the barrel at all.
Mine has one other issue too. I pulled the barrel out completely and found someone at Hatsan must have put a large set screw (larger than the ones that hold the barrel) and messed up the O rings. Can't be easily fixed so will need to get a new barrel.
Pellets clipping silencer
(http://puu.sh/vLgWH/7bbd7ded13.jpg)
Bad photo attempting to show that without the spacer washer the barrel band is not close to being aligned with the barrel. If you put it together it will flex the barrel.
(http://puu.sh/vLh76/020e269f7e.jpg)
The gap between the barrel and shroud should be enough to allow the shroud to slip in without any resistance, that was achieved by putting a washer in the stock.
(http://puu.sh/vLhaS/353180bf1b.jpg)
Here is the end of the barrel that goes into the breach. See how some large diameter screw scarred it up to the point the O rings are distorted. Anyone have an idea of how they did that at the factory? The diameter is too large for the set screws to have done it. There was some air blow by where the O rings meet that burr.
(http://puu.sh/vLhhM/5a5eb93291.jpg)
I'll test it out further in the next day or two. Sun went down but inside it was grouping much better. 8/10 hole in hole at 35 feet. Still gets a crazy flier 1 of 10 with JSB 18s.
I'm thinking Hatsan owes me a new barrel.
I'm not giving up on the gun just yet, but it is clear Hatsan has some quality control issues.
I love how easy it is to take the barrel out, adjust the hammer screw etc. But in the end the gun has to shoot well too.
Thanks for the details. Out of curiosity, have you tried pushing a pellet through the barrel from breech to muzzle? I'm thinking that since mine appears to be choked on the wrong end, that at lower velocities the pellet is reacting to barrel inconsistencies. Would be curious to see how your barrel is built.
As to "needing" a regulator, Hatsan should build it into the gun if it "needs" a regulator. Otherwise, it's poor design on their part, and they're selling guns with known problems. I shouldn't have to spend $70 to make the gun work as advertised. The advertising says "25-35 optimal shots/fill, integral moderator -- a real hunting machine!" it says nothing about the first 9 shots and last 9 shots spraying all over the target. It says OPTIMAL shots, which I interpret as at least 25 lethal, accurate shots before accuracy degrades. THEIR design, not MY [/size]improvements, should deliver what it takes to accomplish that. Agreed?[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Gotta get some sleep or I'll be a grumpy bear in the morning. Thanks for your continued contributions.[/color]
-
JoeV, Sorry I forgot to do that push the pellet test.
I will try to pull it apart again when I have some time and let you know. I'm curious too.
I will say without the regulator my .22 shot JSB Monsters pretty good but not the 18s or 16s they were like yours all over.
Another issue is the barrel grubs (dents) for the set screws do not line up. I would need to push the barrel in a little further which can't be done. So they either miss drilled the breach block set holes or the grubs on the barrel. Not sure it that has anything to do with accuracy though.
Cleaning the barrel and getting the shroud aligned did help a bunch.
I left a note on Hatsan USA, looks like they finally got a new site up, it was not there when I ordered the gun or it was in "under repair" type status.
I asked for either a barrel swap or the gun is going back to Midway.
Waiting for a reply.
Its a under $500.00 gun so I tried to keep my expectations in check. The gun is very close to being a winner just the quality control seems to be an issue.
-
Guess you can take back your jab at me being the Barnaby Jones Gun Sleuth when I said it's the shroud causing the problem. Lol.
-
Ant an email to Hatsan last night and referenced this thread. The acknowledged receipt and just waiting to hear back.
The shroud nut is just on finger snug to hold in place, but the problem persists. I'm going with a bad rifling job.
-
Guess you can take back your jab at me being the Barnaby Jones Gun Sleuth when I said it's the shroud causing the problem. Lol.
LOL, that was no jab man or uppercut I love me some Barnaby "Buddy Epsen" Jones
I was just not sure it was a system wide bust by the company.
I think I may be washing my hands of the Hatsan and getting a BSA now.
-
I think I figured out the issue with the QE tonight.
You need to take the shroud completely off and shoot it. With the shroud off it changed the POI around 2 feet at 70 yards. The reason? They left a washer off the front of the stock. That made it so the barrel with no shroud was still touching the top of the front barrel strap. So with the shroud on it was pushing the barrel down.
I inserted one large washer inside the stock (there is a round cut out for one) It needs it to push the barrel band up higher. With the washer in place the shroud can be slipped back on with no binding or bending of the barrel.
Then drilled out the silencer baskets (the pellets were clipping them)
Put it all back together and at least inside at 12 yards it was 9 of 10 pellet on pellet.
And it is still quite.
So shoot it with the shroud completely off. Then if it shoots well enough you can put it back together and not have the shroud flex the barrel at all.
Mine has one other issue too. I pulled the barrel out completely and found someone at Hatsan must have put a large set screw (larger than the ones that hold the barrel) and messed up the O rings. Can't be easily fixed so will need to get a new barrel.
Pellets clipping silencer
(http://puu.sh/vLgWH/7bbd7ded13.jpg)
Bad photo attempting to show that without the spacer washer the barrel band is not close to being aligned with the barrel. If you put it together it will flex the barrel.
(http://puu.sh/vLh76/020e269f7e.jpg)
The gap between the barrel and shroud should be enough to allow the shroud to slip in without any resistance, that was achieved by putting a washer in the stock.
(http://puu.sh/vLhaS/353180bf1b.jpg)
Here is the end of the barrel that goes into the breach. See how some large diameter screw scarred it up to the point the O rings are distorted. Anyone have an idea of how they did that at the factory? The diameter is too large for the set screws to have done it. There was some air blow by where the O rings meet that burr.
(http://puu.sh/vLhhM/5a5eb93291.jpg)
I'll test it out further in the next day or two. Sun went down but inside it was grouping much better. 8/10 hole in hole at 35 feet. Still gets a crazy flier 1 of 10 with JSB 18s.
I'm thinking Hatsan owes me a new barrel.
I'm not giving up on the gun just yet, but it is clear Hatsan has some quality control issues.
I love how easy it is to take the barrel out, adjust the hammer screw etc. But in the end the gun has to shoot well too.
I'm thinking you are correct, and that Hatsan does indeed owe you a new barrel. They'll probably send you a new barrel without you sending the gun in if you explain the issue to them ;) Even if you had to buy a barrel they are less than $100. I think the long barrel is $89 if I remember correctly.
-
I'm not spending another nickle on mine. $100.00 barrel on a new gun, no way I would pay that.
Mine has too many little issues that added up to a bunch of time, driving, reading, shooting extra pellets and lots of bad shots.
Its been fun in a sick way. But the barrel dented and O rings might not be the entire picture with mine.
- That burr on the barrel might have scarred up the breach inside and maybe the trasfer port (don't know)
- The grub dents on the barrel do not line up with the breach set screws. So a new barrel might not fix that issue. Either the barrel was made wrong or the breach was drilled wrong for set screws.
I can see more issue down the road trying to undo what the Hatsan machinest did at the factory.
Plus the gun is pretty heavy.
Pay a little more and get a BSA scorpion.
I am not saying ALL Hatsans are bad just think I got a lemon, same with the OP.
-
Sadly, this gun is doing the same things the last one did. Group nice in the basement, but on the bench at 25 and 50 yards it's a bonofide looser. When pushing a pellet from the breech, this barrel is exactly like the last one with about 4" of tight engagement at the breech end, then the free fall to about 15" with engagement for a touch, then tight for about 5/8" at the muzzle. Here are the targets before going to the outdoor range, and at 25 & 50 yards. Totally unacceptable, particularly the way the gun is being held. Zero movement by my, just a trigger squeeze. I also now have some nicks on the ID of the plastic baffles, meaning the pellet is not traveling true as it leaves the barrel.
I spoke to Pyramyd Air this morning when I ordered a part for my fill nozzle, and after a lengthy discussion, they suggested I contact Hatsan direct to see about a barrel swap. I believe that the inventory at AGD where's the gun came from, is all the same lot, and will have the same issues with barrels. I'll see where it goes from here.
I'm sorry to hear about your trouble with Hatsan AT44s. I know that some people get good shooters, but that has not been my experience. I have had 5 AT-44s over the past two years, and none would shoot. The first was a .22 QE short version that I sent back to AGD for a refund. The QE platform was new at that time, and I thought that might be the trouble. So I ordered a long non-QE version and later a .177 short non-QE. Neither would shoot and each was ultimately replaced. Unfortunately, the replacements were no better. So, I'm not a Hatsan fan.
To be perfectly fair, though, I had similar problems with a Marauder .25 synthetic stock. It was replaced once, and, with some work, it did come around. It's not a tack-driver, but I still have more to do, and I'm hopeful. No such luck with the Hatsans, though. A friend did offer to tune the .25, however, but I just got it back and haven't put it through its paces yet, so we'll see.
I hope you have better luck than I have had with these. I think that the engineering is good, but things go awry in the manufacturing and assembly phases.
-
I'm not spending another nickle on mine. $100.00 barrel on a new gun, no way I would pay that.
Mine has too many little issues that added up to a bunch of time, driving, reading, shooting extra pellets and lots of bad shots.
Its been fun in a sick way. But the barrel dented and O rings might not be the entire picture with mine.
- That burr on the barrel might have scarred up the breach inside and maybe the trasfer port (don't know)
- The grub dents on the barrel do not line up with the breach set screws. So a new barrel might not fix that issue. Either the barrel was made wrong or the breach was drilled wrong for set screws.
I can see more issue down the road trying to undo what the Hatsan machinest did at the factory.
Plus the gun is pretty heavy.
Pay a little more and get a BSA scorpion.
I am not saying ALL Hatsans are bad just think I got a lemon, same with the OP.
I can certainly understand the frustration and your point of view. I've been fortunate with my Hatsans, but others have not. I got started with them, because of price to performance ratio, which is very good if you get a good one. If I had the $$ I would certainly own some of the higher priced guns. I do enjoy tinkering and a challenge though, so the Hatsans work well for me. Two guns that would be at the top of my list right now would a Taipan Mutant/Veteran or an FX Streamline. After that price range I have a hard time justifying it, since I could get some pretty sweet PBs for that kind of money.
-
I'm not spending another nickle on mine. $100.00 barrel on a new gun, no way I would pay that.
Mine has too many little issues that added up to a bunch of time, driving, reading, shooting extra pellets and lots of bad shots.
Its been fun in a sick way. But the barrel dented and O rings might not be the entire picture with mine.
- That burr on the barrel might have scarred up the breach inside and maybe the trasfer port (don't know)
- The grub dents on the barrel do not line up with the breach set screws. So a new barrel might not fix that issue. Either the barrel was made wrong or the breach was drilled wrong for set screws.
I can see more issue down the road trying to undo what the Hatsan machinest did at the factory.
Plus the gun is pretty heavy.
Pay a little more and get a BSA scorpion.
I am not saying ALL Hatsans are bad just think I got a lemon, same with the OP.
I can certainly understand the frustration and your point of view. I've been fortunate with my Hatsans, but others have not. I got started with them, because of price to performance ratio, which is very good if you get a good one. If I had the $$ I would certainly own some of the higher priced guns. I do enjoy tinkering and a challenge though, so the Hatsans work well for me. Two guns that would be at the top of my list right now would a Taipan Mutant/Veteran or an FX Streamline. After that price range I have a hard time justifying it, since I could get some pretty sweet PBs for that kind of money.
Oh I see great potential in this Hatsan, it offers a ton for the money. Its just missing on a few areas which I think are due to some lax quality control.
- Hammer screw - they need to put a nylon washer on that set screw, its loose as a goose. Sure can be fixed by user but he has to pull it apart.
- Shroud issue - I think that shroud with silencer can work, but without proper quality control they are going to have a bunch that are flexing the barrel. This I don't understand as its not a new issue with air guns.
- New Web site - they have a bunch of red print "Don't mode your gun or breaks warranty" well none of that was in the box and that site is new. Why do they put pre drilled holes for the hammer lock and adjustment then? Why do they sell Hatsan regulator if they don't want to you to mod it? Sounds like they trying to get out of returns when they invite modders. Why do they make guns so out of balance that the user is forced to try to fix what they messed up?
But the good is
- Price
- Very easy to work on
- Accuracy
- Shot count is decent
- Power is good
- Walnut stock is nice
- Like the clips and price of clips (No jams)
- Like the regulator
I hate sending stuff back but this one along with hearing about others with the same model leads me to throw in the towel. If they get their quality control in order maybe I would try another Hatsan. From what I have read I might just get another dud on replacement. If you got a good one be happy.
-
Oh I see great potential in this Hatsan, it offers a ton for the money. Its just missing on a few areas which I think are due to some lax quality control.
- Hammer screw - they need to put a nylon washer on that set screw, its loose as a goose. Sure can be fixed by user but he has to pull it apart.
- Shroud issue - I think that shroud with silencer can work, but without proper quality control they are going to have a bunch that are flexing the barrel. This I don't understand as its not a new issue with air guns.
- New Web site - they have a bunch of red print "Don't mode your gun or breaks warranty" well none of that was in the box and that site is new. Why do they put pre drilled holes for the hammer lock and adjustment then? Why do they sell Hatsan regulator if they don't want to you to mod it? Sounds like they trying to get out of returns when they invite modders. Why do they make guns so out of balance that the user is forced to try to fix what they messed up?
But the good is
- Price
- Very easy to work on
- Accuracy
- Shot count is decent
- Power is good
- Walnut stock is nice
- Like the clips and price of clips (No jams)
- Like the regulator
I hate sending stuff back but this one along with hearing about others with the same model leads me to throw in the towel. If they get their quality control in order maybe I would try another Hatsan. From what I have read I might just get another dud on replacement. If you got a good one be happy.
Bottom line is, because of their quality control, they get a lot of warranty claims, and they could use the "mod" clause to cut you off. I don't know if it's common practice or not, but they once told me that adjusting the hammer spring was a mod and voided the warranty. Plus, sending it to Hatsan is not a guarantee of success. The first .25 AT44 I had started having magazine feeding issues, so I sent it for repair. When I got it back, the receiver was boogered up as if someone had taken a Dremel tool to it. As this was a brand new rifle, I couldn't have that so sent it back again to be replaced. Trouble is, that was the one rifle, out of the 5 AT44's that I have had in my hands, that showed some accuracy promise. The replacement, on the other hand, had serious accuracy issues. Plus, as evidence that your rifle was really accurate after all, they will send you a target showing 3 shots at 20 yards. First of all, 3 shots doesn't show you anything, and 20 yds is springer range and is an insult, or should be, to a PCP.
Knowing what I now know, based upon my own experience alone, in this price range I would stick with the Marauder .25. Although I love the features of the AT44, I would avoid it like the plague. For me, anyway, the bloom is definitely off the rose.
-
If you got a good one be happy.
I have the AT44 QE long in .25 and the AT44 Tac in .22
Both of mine are almost boring to shoot way out to 100+ yards.
So I'm happy enuff to consider a BT Carnavore in .357
-
I have the AT44 QE long in .25 and the AT44 Tac in .22
Both of mine are almost boring to shoot way out to 100+ yards.
So I'm happy enuff to consider a BT Carnavore in .357
Do have any photos of targets we can see?
-
If you got a good one be happy.
I have the AT44 QE long in .25 and the AT44 Tac in .22
Both of mine are almost boring to shoot way out to 100+ yards.
So I'm happy enuff to consider a BT Carnavore in .357
Believe me, I'm happy for you. You're not alone, as many others have had experience similar to yours. Maybe more than have had experience similar to mine.
-
Hatsan finally replied but I had already decided to send it back to midway and wash my hands of it.
Hatsan offered an RMA but it almost seems like they are looking to place blame and charge. Getting blamed for their shoddy workmanship would be the last straw. Its a many questions asked type of warranty and maybe the guy that decides just says "hey I think you put the gun in a vise" and then I get charged on top of all the work I put into it.
"Please send it to the address below, along with a copy of your receipt and
a copy of this email. We will either repair or replace your item. If
it's determined that your issues were caused by something other than
manufacture's defect, i.e. user error, tampering, abuse, etc., we'll
contact you with a cost of the repair and return shipping before we do
any work.
For Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns, we WILL NOT process your
repair unless the air cylinder and at least 1 magazine are included."
So Hatsan on the way back and BSA Scorpion SE on the way from PA.
-
Do have any photos of targets we can see?
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Air%20Rifles/NUAH-1.jpg~original)
That's 105 yards with the AT44 QE long .25
I haven't shot the .22 for N.U.A.H. yet but I hit the bell target out at 100+ easily.
-
Hatsan finally replied but I had already decided to send it back to midway and wash my hands of it.
Hatsan offered an RMA but it almost seems like they are looking to place blame and charge. Getting blamed for their shoddy workmanship would be the last straw. Its a many questions asked type of warranty and maybe the guy that decides just says "hey I think you put the gun in a vise" and then I get charged on top of all the work I put into it.
"Please send it to the address below, along with a copy of your receipt and
a copy of this email. We will either repair or replace your item. If
it's determined that your issues were caused by something other than
manufacture's defect, i.e. user error, tampering, abuse, etc., we'll
contact you with a cost of the repair and return shipping before we do
any work.
For Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns, we WILL NOT process your
repair unless the air cylinder and at least 1 magazine are included."
So Hatsan on the way back and BSA Scorpion SE on the way from PA.
That's standard nomenclature to cover their butt from someone who may have modified their gun within the warranty period. IMO, that just makes sense. If you buy a gun with the express purpose of modifying it to your specific needs/wants, the manufacturer should not be held liable because of it. I see people here all the time buying a gun is they can tear into it and improve it. That's fine, but the manufacturer shouldn't be required to sent you parts or replacements once that's done.
I received the same email today, but they said they needed both magazines back. They're getting the .22 magazine that they shipped in the parts box when the gun was new. I'm getting ready to pack it up now and take it to FedEx to ship back. Hopefully I'll get back a gun like Jeff has that shoots good groups so I can be "bored" as well. 😆
-
Hatsan finally replied but I had already decided to send it back to midway and wash my hands of it.
Hatsan offered an RMA but it almost seems like they are looking to place blame and charge. Getting blamed for their shoddy workmanship would be the last straw. Its a many questions asked type of warranty and maybe the guy that decides just says "hey I think you put the gun in a vise" and then I get charged on top of all the work I put into it.
"Please send it to the address below, along with a copy of your receipt and
a copy of this email. We will either repair or replace your item. If
it's determined that your issues were caused by something other than
manufacture's defect, i.e. user error, tampering, abuse, etc., we'll
contact you with a cost of the repair and return shipping before we do
any work.
For Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns, we WILL NOT process your
repair unless the air cylinder and at least 1 magazine are included."
So Hatsan on the way back and BSA Scorpion SE on the way from PA.
I'll be interested to see how that Scorpion turns out. Keep us posted.
-
Hatsan finally replied but I had already decided to send it back to midway and wash my hands of it.
Hatsan offered an RMA but it almost seems like they are looking to place blame and charge. Getting blamed for their shoddy workmanship would be the last straw. Its a many questions asked type of warranty and maybe the guy that decides just says "hey I think you put the gun in a vise" and then I get charged on top of all the work I put into it.
"Please send it to the address below, along with a copy of your receipt and
a copy of this email. We will either repair or replace your item. If
it's determined that your issues were caused by something other than
manufacture's defect, i.e. user error, tampering, abuse, etc., we'll
contact you with a cost of the repair and return shipping before we do
any work.
For Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns, we WILL NOT process your
repair unless the air cylinder and at least 1 magazine are included."
So Hatsan on the way back and BSA Scorpion SE on the way from PA.
That's standard nomenclature to cover their butt from someone who may have modified their gun within the warranty period. IMO, that just makes sense. If you buy a gun with the express purpose of modifying it to your specific needs/wants, the manufacturer should not be held liable because of it. I see people here all the time buying a gun is they can tear into it and improve it. That's fine, but the manufacturer shouldn't be required to sent you parts or replacements once that's done.
I received the same email today, but they said they needed both magazines back. They're getting the .22 magazine that they shipped in the parts box when the gun was new. I'm getting ready to pack it up now and take it to FedEx to ship back. Hopefully I'll get back a gun like Jeff has that shoots good groups so I can be "bored" as well. 😆
Yes JoeV that maybe standard but as they say "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" :)
Midway was 100 percent no issue return so I went that route.
I hope you get a winner. I think Hatsans can be great guns keep us posted on the new one.
-
Hatsan finally replied but I had already decided to send it back to midway and wash my hands of it.
Hatsan offered an RMA but it almost seems like they are looking to place blame and charge. Getting blamed for their shoddy workmanship would be the last straw. Its a many questions asked type of warranty and maybe the guy that decides just says "hey I think you put the gun in a vise" and then I get charged on top of all the work I put into it.
"Please send it to the address below, along with a copy of your receipt and
a copy of this email. We will either repair or replace your item. If
it's determined that your issues were caused by something other than
manufacture's defect, i.e. user error, tampering, abuse, etc., we'll
contact you with a cost of the repair and return shipping before we do
any work.
For Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns, we WILL NOT process your
repair unless the air cylinder and at least 1 magazine are included."
So Hatsan on the way back and BSA Scorpion SE on the way from PA.
I'll be interested to see how that Scorpion turns out. Keep us posted.
I started a new thread on the scorpion. I am a little excited for the new toy.
Sounds like it might give my Daystate a run for its money.
-
Hatsan finally replied but I had already decided to send it back to midway and wash my hands of it.
Hatsan offered an RMA but it almost seems like they are looking to place blame and charge. Getting blamed for their shoddy workmanship would be the last straw. Its a many questions asked type of warranty and maybe the guy that decides just says "hey I think you put the gun in a vise" and then I get charged on top of all the work I put into it.
"Please send it to the address below, along with a copy of your receipt and
a copy of this email. We will either repair or replace your item. If
it's determined that your issues were caused by something other than
manufacture's defect, i.e. user error, tampering, abuse, etc., we'll
contact you with a cost of the repair and return shipping before we do
any work.
For Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns, we WILL NOT process your
repair unless the air cylinder and at least 1 magazine are included."
So Hatsan on the way back and BSA Scorpion SE on the way from PA.
That's standard nomenclature to cover their butt from someone who may have modified their gun within the warranty period. IMO, that just makes sense. If you buy a gun with the express purpose of modifying it to your specific needs/wants, the manufacturer should not be held liable because of it. I see people here all the time buying a gun is they can tear into it and improve it. That's fine, but the manufacturer shouldn't be required to sent you parts or replacements once that's done.
I received the same email today, but they said they needed both magazines back. They're getting the .22 magazine that they shipped in the parts box when the gun was new. I'm getting ready to pack it up now and take it to FedEx to ship back. Hopefully I'll get back a gun like Jeff has that shoots good groups so I can be "bored" as well. 😆
Yes JoeV that maybe standard but as they say "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" :)
Midway was 100 percent no issue return so I went that route.
I hope you get a winner. I think Hatsans can be great guns keep us posted on the new one.
I received two guns from AGD...both had the same barrel problem generating identical results. Their inventory appears to be from the same lot, so it made no sense to get a third gun. That's that's why I sent it back to Hatsan for their inspection/correction. I've dealt with them before and had no problems. Since Jeff is bored out of his mind with the same gun, I figured I could get one to bore me as well. He's proven it's possible to get a consistent shooter. I know, because I own four other Hatsans that are wonderful.
-
Jason, AKA nervoustrigger, has a nice .25 shooter as well!
I shot his down in Mississippi and bought mine very shortly after that.
He posted a picture of a House fly I hit at 43 yards after only shooting 4 or 5 shots to get use to his set up.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/fun%20shoot/Jeff%20and%20Jay/Jeff%20-%20fly%2043yds%20AT44%20.25_zpsjo8rej0w.jpg)
So a good one can be a shooter. You can see the shots I took before I hit the fly.
The upper hole was my first shot. Then the lower holes were the follow ups as I adjusted my POA.
I think I may have asked if his was for sale at the time as I was impressed being the first time I ever shot the AT44.
Even the .22 MRod I had did not impress me as much and it was a shooter also.
If Jason ever puts that AT44 in the classifieds? You better beat me to it!
-
I almost forgot I owned this gun, but it finally came back from Hatsan yesterday, via the FedEx camel train. After looking over the service test report, i tore down the shroud and removed the barrel before even shooting it. The barrel is the same barrel with the choke 4" at the breech and loose the rest of the way. Not real happy about that, and no explanation as to if this is right or wrong, so this will remain a mystery with the answer known only to Hatsan. I guess the customer doesn't need to know, or maybe they think I can't handle the truth. I digress before I say how I really feel about this. 😠
The only thing I see that they did was to replace the plastic baffles with a pair that have the the same large diameter hole all the way through. No 5/16" reduced diameter on one end like originally came with both guns. Perhaps this was a known problem, because these are molded, not drilled out. No machining marks.
Here's the service test report, and some 9-shot groups from the basement. Stayed with charging to 175 bar, but took it up to 200 bar for the Baracudas...won't do that again! Waste of air and pellets.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2386.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2379.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/flyfishohio/Gun%20stuff/Pellet%20Rifles/Hatsan%20AT44/IMG_2381.jpg)
Not sure when I'll be able to get it out to see what it's like at distance in MY hands. Right now I'm just apathetic about this gun because of its problems that shouldn't exist at this price point.I better just shut up since I'm not real happy now. It's supposedly fixed, so I guess I should be thrilled that they didn't think to communicate what they did.
-
;D Joe when a rifle leaves you feeling less than happy when you shoot it it is better to sell it take the hit and move on to something that puts a smile on your face. I have owned and sold several rifles that were not to my liking and only 2 that I sort of regret selling but at the end of the day I will not keep a rifle that makes me less than happy they are not worth the aggravation ;D ;D
-
I guess that had an unrealistic expectation that they would do a better job of communicating what they did or didn't do. I have a small business that's based on communicating what I will and will not do, and if anything, I tend to over explain so the customer is fully informed. I think I'm a dying breed.
-
Joe, I am 100% with you. I also own a small business.
Communication and customer service is an important factor for getting the contract instead of the bigger companies. Hope your BSA turns out to be everything you hoped this air gun would be (and more).
-
Joe, I am 100% with you. I also own a small business.
Communication and customer service is an important factor for getting the contract instead of the bigger companies. Hope your BSA turns out to be everything you hoped this air gun would be (and more).
BSA R10 MK II is an awesome rifle is a well made air rifle good shot count and very nice fit & finish. Accuracy is as good as others have said in other threads also surprisingly good looking for a bottle baby. Fell in love with mine . ;D ;D ;D
-
As much as I like the Hatsans I have, I've never dealt with the QE models. They seem to have a separate set of possible problems that I was unaware of.
-
;D Joe when a rifle leaves you feeling less than happy when you shoot it it is better to sell it take the hit and move on to something that puts a smile on your face. I have owned and sold several rifles that were not to my liking and only 2 that I sort of regret selling but at the end of the day I will not keep a rifle that makes me less than happy they are not worth the aggravation ;D ;D
Probably good advice. Maybe I'll be smart enough to take it one day. :)
-
I have all three calibers if the 95 Vortex and a 125 TH in .25 cal. All are stellar. This is my first PCP, so I'm learning as I go. Time will tell if this one stays in the herd, or if it goes to someone else's barn.
-
I guess that had an unrealistic expectation that they would do a better job of communicating what they did or didn't do. I have a small business that's based on communicating what I will and will not do, and if anything, I tend to over explain so the customer is fully informed. I think I'm a dying breed.
So the entire fix was the last baffle in the shroud? Were you able to reproduce their 20 yard groups with the jsp 25s?
This might not be your issue but I see that you shoot indoors at close ranges. I got a new 183.00 Benjamin Maximuss for kicks and its pretty accurate at 30 yards. Took it in the shed and everyone had issues shooting it, like it was worse at closer range. The reason is I got a 60 percent off 4x scope for it and its got a fixed parralax set further out. At close ranges the parallax is so severe you can't put pellet on pellet unless you have your eye exactly in the same place. It can be +- 1/2 inch at 10 yards. Any chance the scope you are using has this issue indoors?
-
I guess that had an unrealistic expectation that they would do a better job of communicating what they did or didn't do. I have a small business that's based on communicating what I will and will not do, and if anything, I tend to over explain so the customer is fully informed. I think I'm a dying breed.
So the entire fix was the last baffle in the shroud? Were you able to reproduce their 20 yard groups with the jsp 25s?
This might not be your issue but I see that you shoot indoors at close ranges. I got a new 183.00 Benjamin Maximuss for kicks and its pretty accurate at 30 yards. Took it in the shed and everyone had issues shooting it, like it was worse at closer range. The reason is I got a 60 percent off 4x scope for it and its got a fixed parralax set further out. At close ranges the parallax is so severe you can't put pellet on pellet unless you have your eye exactly in the same place. It can be +- 1/2 inch at 10 yards. Any chance the scope you are using has this issue indoors?
I can only surmise that the replacement of the two plastic baffles was the entire fix, but since they didn't communicate with me after issuing the RMA I'll never know. This is what bugs the daylights out of me. I go to my mechanic to have my work truck front end checked, and when I pick it up I have a checklist of what he has inspected and what the condition of each part is...
Left upper ball join't....OK
Left lower ball joint.....OK
Right upper ball joint...bad...replaced
A similar report is what I expected from Hatsan, but for some reason they don't feel it's important to share that information with the customer. I don't understand that philosophy, but it's what they must embrace. It's not really a problem, because this will probably be the last new Hatsan I purchase.
Yes, I do a lot of indoor shooting at 12 yards because I live in the city where we cannot shoot outdoors. I have a friend with property, but between work and monsoon conditions lately, I've not been able to take the gun out there to check it out to 50-75 yards
-
Joe,
RAJOD's question about the scope was a good one. Are you using a scope at 12yds? If so, what kind, and is it parallax adjustable?
-
Joe,
RAJOD's question about the scope was a good one. Are you using a scope at 12yds? If so, what kind, and is it parallax adjustable?
I'm using a Centerpoint 4-16X40AO scope that came off of my Hatsan 125TH .25cal springer. I leave the scope set to 6.5x out to 50 yards and it works just fine. All I ever change is the AO for distance. It's a known scope that's harvested many squirrels at 30-50 yards with head shots.
-
Joe,
RAJOD's question about the scope was a good one. Are you using a scope at 12yds? If so, what kind, and is it parallax adjustable?
I'm using a Centerpoint 4-16X40AO scope that came off of my Hatsan 125TH .25cal springer. I leave the scope set to 6.5x out to 50 yards and it works just fine. All I ever change is the AO for distance. It's a known scope that's harvested many squirrels at 30-50 yards with head shots.
Yeah, it's a good one. I have two. When you focus with the AO to 12 yds, that should take care of the parallax issue.
-
Joe,
RAJOD's question about the scope was a good one. Are you using a scope at 12yds? If so, what kind, and is it parallax adjustable?
I'm using a Centerpoint 4-16X40AO scope that came off of my Hatsan 125TH .25cal springer. I leave the scope set to 6.5x out to 50 yards and it works just fine. All I ever change is the AO for distance. It's a known scope that's harvested many squirrels at 30-50 yards with head shots.
Yeah, it's a good one. I have two. When you focus with the AO to 12 yds, that should take care of the parallax issue.
Yea the parallax issue was just a shot in the dark to eliminate any other issues. What I do Even on my good scopes is not to assume the knob on the end of the scope will get rid of parallax. Have the gun on the rest and in focus on the target. Then move your head side to side looking at the target. If I see any background target move independent of the cross hairs I know there is some parallax "Even if its a $1,000 scope" the movement does not lie.
Then adjust the AO knob until that movement you see is gone. Only then do you really know you don't have any parallax.
My 4x scope I can get the target to move around 1 inch depending on how far I move off axis.
Was just wondering why Hatsan sends you a great looking test card then you shoot it and its not close to what they sent. Somethings up.
I think its good that you let others know the issues you have with being cut out of the loop on what they fixed. It really does not matter if your reasons align with theirs, all that should matter is they lost a potential Hatsan owner over it. So maybe they need to read a few posts and adjust to the wants of the customer.