GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: patseale on March 26, 2017, 05:04:02 PM
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I’m posting this here because I’m not sure which Gate it belongs in, so being target related I assumed this maybe the place.
I have some questions concerning pellet weights and shape for strictly 10 meter target shooting out of doors. I realize that some testing needs to be done for the individual airgun but there must be some knowledge that can be shared for the range of weights, shape and mfg. even when ones starts testing.
Anyway, appreciate any taking a look and posting your thoughts if you would please. In my case I am particular interested in pellets for springer target guns and in particular the FWB 300 S.
Thanks.
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Wadcutters are primarily used because they cut nice clean holes that are easy to score.
At 10 meters aerodynamics don't play a big enough factor to make a difference in different diabolo drag stabilized pellets.
Taso
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Taso,
Thanks for the reply. I unpacked the air rifle recently after being packed away for some time and getting ready to start trying my hand at 10 meter target shooting. Still have 5+ tins of H&N Match Wadcutters that I purchased with the FWB 300 S back in May of 81, so I must have been doing a little study in that area. The tin lid has Beeman Precision Wadcutters printed along with the H&N logo and the price sticker on the bottom reads $4.99. :D
Anyway, I plan on spending more time learning about this grand sport than I've ever had the time to do before and joining in the On Your Honor 10 Meter Matches come April. Looking forward to the fun and hopefully improving my off hand ability too.
Thanks again.
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Patrick,
I also picked up an FWB 300 S Mini from Jim E. recently. I have not had a chance to put it through it's paces yet.
I have read RWS Basics are good enough to start out with. Once you get consistent groups with those you can move up to more accurate pellets. There's no use in spending money on expensive/accurate pellets till you can realize their accuracy.
Taso
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Taso,
Please let us know what you think of the Mini when you get a chance.
Put some tins of the RWS Basics on my list.
Patrick
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About the FWB-300.
You need to hold the rifle firmly (not TIGHT) against your shoulder. Pull back with your trigger hand against the pistol grip. This is because the rifle has to be in a stable position for the sliding sledge recoilless mechanism to work. If you hold the 300 loose, like a spring sporter rifle, it will recoil.
The 3 rods that the sledge slides on has to be clean and lightly oiled. On old rifles, the lube could be dried and gummed up, preventing the sledge from sliding freely.
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Patrick,
Have you chronied your 300S? It would be interesting to know the results using both 7.0 and 8.2g pellets. I believe most JSB, RWS, H&N pellets will give very good results. Shooting offhand (especially with a springer), the pellet is usually the least of concerns. I believe testing might give you confidence in a certain brand/weight but doubt that Ransom Rest testing would reveal any significant differences. As stated by taso, wadcutters are best for cutting nice clean holes but another important factor is target selection. Kruger and National Target are excellent choices IMO.
Are you referring to the matches held here on GTA?
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Taso,
Please let us know what you think of the Mini when you get a chance.
Put some tins of the RWS Basics on my list.
Patrick
Patrick,
I will but I have nothing to compare it to. It's the first one I've ever handled. I wanted the mini because I didn't want a 10 pound rifle but I'm not sure what the other differences are beyond the weighted barrel sleeve. I think the length of pull may be shorter. Maybe I can add and extension to my stock if it is shorter.
My rifle's sled would not work properly because the rear sliding part got slightly bent during transit. Once I bent it back slightly the sled stopped binding and worked properly.
Taso
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About the FWB-300.
You need to hold the rifle firmly (not TIGHT) against your shoulder. Pull back with your trigger hand against the pistol grip. This is because the rifle has to be in a stable position for the sliding sledge recoilless mechanism to work. If you hold the 300 loose, like a spring sporter rifle, it will recoil.
The 3 rods that the sledge slides on has to be clean and lightly oiled. On old rifles, the lube could be dried and gummed up, preventing the sledge from sliding freely.
AC,
You've made my day! Outstanding! I'll sure try to pay particular attention to the sledge movement. I've been watching Joe Rhea's youtube presentations trying to learn the 300S nomenclature and the steps to disassembly if necessary. I'm really enjoying getting into all of this.
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Patrick,
Have you chronied your 300S? It would be interesting to know the results using both 7.0 and 8.2g pellets. I believe most JSB, RWS, H&N pellets will give very good results. Shooting offhand (especially with a springer), the pellet is usually the least of concerns. I believe testing might give you confidence in a certain brand/weight but doubt that Ransom Rest testing would reveal any significant differences. As stated by taso, wadcutters are best for cutting nice clean holes but another important factor is target selection. Kruger and National Target are excellent choices IMO.
Are you referring to the matches held here on GTA?
Hi Nick,
I've started wondering about being able to chronograph the 300S thinking it may tell me something about the condition of the rifle after being stored so long. I'll start checking with my rim fire and center fire friends and see if there's one around I may be able to borrow. As I was telling Taso I do have 5+ tins of H&N Match wadcutters in the inventory. I'll weigh some of those out and see what we have weight wise. Just received a couple of packs of National Target AR-5/5 and Kruger AR-5/1 targets this last week.
Yes, the matches I want to get into are on GTA. If I remember correctly I think the 10 meter start in April so I'm trying to get it in gear.
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Pat
I will give you one guess how I know about cleaning and oiling the 3 rods that the sledge slides on :-[
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Pat
I will give you one guess how I know about cleaning and oiling the 3 rods that the sledge slides on :-[
It must have happened to you personally. What is your choice of oil? Would it be Ballistol by any chance?
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Pat
I will give you one guess how I know about cleaning and oiling the 3 rods that the sledge slides on :-[
It must have happened to you personally. What is your choice of oil? Would it be Ballistol by any chance?
When I shot the 300, it recoiled ??? huh ???
Then I looked at the rifle, and the sledge had not moved. Pulling the receiver out of the stock, I found the rods were gummed up with old dried dirty oil.
I think I first cleaned the rods with rubbing alcohol, to clean off the old oil and gunk.
Then I just use a gun oil out of my cleaning kit, and wiped a thin coat onto the rods, making sure that I wiped all the entire rod.
I had to release and move the sledge to get to the part of the rod inside the sledge guide. And repeat this a few times, as there was old dried oil inside the sledge guide that I could not directly get to.
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While my Beeman prefers the Meisterkugeln 8.2 pellet, If I remember right, those Beeman branded H&N wadcutters were a sought after back in the day. I would definitely use them for casual shooting since you have 5 tins.
RWS makes a "R 10 Match" but they are just too pricey for me at this point.
I can not believe this thread has gon this far without someone asking for a photo!
A 300S that's been stored away since '81!
LET'S SEE IT!!
;D
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Patrick... if you plan on shooting in GTA matches there is a variety of targets that can be printed and used. Just check out the first thread (Rules and Targets) in the child gate of the match you want to shoot in and the targets for that match are attached at the bottom of the first post. You can also use other targets as long as the ring sizes are the same as the official targets.
As for pellets .... use what works the best in the airgun you are shooting.
The matches will be starting April 3rd.
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When I shot the 300, it recoiled ??? huh ???
Then I looked at the rifle, and the sledge had not moved. Pulling the receiver out of the stock, I found the rods were gummed up with old dried dirty oil.
I think I first cleaned the rods with rubbing alcohol, to clean off the old oil and gunk.
Then I just use a gun oil out of my cleaning kit, and wiped a thin coat onto the rods, making sure that I wiped all the entire rod.
I had to release and move the sledge to get to the part of the rod inside the sledge guide. And repeat this a few times, as there was old dried oil inside the sledge guide that I could not directly get to.
AC,
A special thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge. I've decided there is so much being posted from you all I'm going to setup a hard copy journal for reference.
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I can not believe this thread has gon this far without someone asking for a photo!
A 300S that's been stored away since '81!
LET'S SEE IT!!
;D
:D ;D ;D as I understand the rules, being a new member, I had to have at least 20 posts before being allowed to post photos. Well, with the posts this morning, I should be allowed to be in the "you may post photos now". So, I'll see what I can do for you. :D
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Patrick... if you plan on shooting in GTA matches there is a variety of targets that can be printed and used. Just check out the first thread (Rules and Targets) in the child gate of the match you want to shoot in and the targets for that match are attached at the bottom of the first post. You can also use other targets as long as the ring sizes are the same as the official targets.
As for pellets .... use what works the best in the airgun you are shooting.
The matches will be starting April 3rd.
Thanks Marty. I've been trying to work my way through the Stickies to make sure I have everything straight.
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Pat,
It is called the school of hard knocks.
Or you benefit from what I learned, the hard way.
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And print your targets on card stock instead of regular printer paper... I use the 110# Geogia Pacific stuff from Walmart.
Give a much better hole to score with the wadcutters.
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If you look here in post # 15, Hector Medina has recommended these papers:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=112003.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=112003.0)
I bought both weights and they cut nicely without tearing. If I remember correctly it was also cheaper than the card stock I bought that still snagged and tore.
Thanks,
Taso
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Scott,
These are for you. :D The first two photos were under artificial light so there is a color difference from the last one which were taken outside under a heavy overcast.
(http://i.imgur.com/aDvE3os.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/rZZrfg1.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/6s12bpf.jpg)
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Patrick,
That's a beautiful rifle!
Mine was a club rifle so it has quite a few dings and some light surface rust. I tried knocking the rust down with some 0000 steel wool but I don't know if I should hit it with some cold blue or just leave it alone.
It's never going to be museum quality and the cosmetics don't affect how it shoots.
Thanks,
Taso
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Pat
NICE rifle :)
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Taso: Thanks for that. I'm sure glad I hung on to her all this time. Now, I'll get to enjoy trying to learn to shoot her. As you say it's how they shoot where the rubber meets the road. I'll bet you're going to get a lot of enjoyment out of your new acquisition.
AC: Thanks. Not a great photo but at least I know I can post them now. ;)
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Cardstock is good stuff.
But you need to check the specs of your printer. Some printers will not handle paper over x pounds (ie 60 pounds), or it could jam the printer. So that would be your max cardstock weight that you can use.
If you are cheap, like me, you can just tape regular copy paper to a cardboard backer.
The cardboard backer acts like a cutting board, so the pellet can punch a clean hole.
BUT, you have to move the target around or replace the backer, when you shoot a HOLE in the backer. Because then there is no backer to support the target where your pellet hits. I was surprised that it is very easy to collect cardboard backers; cereal boxes, shipping boxes, stuff that you buy, etc. I actually had to stop collecting cardboard, cuz I had too much.
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Pat
Your rifle is an early 300.
There was a rule change a while back that made that flared piece at the bottom of the pistol grip not legal for competition. If you ever go to shoot a regular match, that won't pass equipment check.
FWB "might" have a replacement piece that does not have the flare.
Mine is a later mini that is a 'plain Jane' compared to yours.
Taso
On my beater 300, I just cleaned off the rust then wiped it with gun oil. That was good enough for me. Shoots very well, just looks UGLY.
It can be difficult to match bluing. And a mismatch might look worse than nothing. I would experiment where it can't be seen first. Then if it seems OK, go for it.
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AC,
Interesting. When you mentioned the flange on the bottom of the pistol grip I checked the extra pistol grip end in the unused parts. No flare. Maybe a mystery solved? :D
(http://i.imgur.com/nG7d0nN.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/YYqCeAv.jpg)
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They took out the flare cuz it helped hold the hand onto the pistol grip.
I think they were looking for ways to get the scores down.
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AMAZING!
"LNIB" When you said you packed it away, I never expected you to have the original box, manual, and all the accessories.
Thank you so much for sharing.
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AMAZING!
"LNIB" When you said you packed it away, I never expected you to have the original box, manual, and all the accessories.
Thank you so much for sharing.
You're very welcome Scott.
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They took out the flare cuz it helped hold the hand onto the pistol grip.
I think they were looking for ways to get the scores down.
Don't know how the straight edge end will feel on the pistol grip but I do like the flair. I guess they realized there would be some of us low end shooters so they'd try to help us out by providing both....... LOL
It's becoming obvious that it's a very competitive sport and I'm beginning to enjoy all the aspects of it. Appreciate you sharing.
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If you really get into AR shooting, it is like falling into a rabbit hole.
Your next step is to get a PCP/CA rifle ;)
- When Walther brought out the SSP rifle, scored shot up, and the spring match rifles were instantly obsolete. The SSP did not have the moving mass of the spring rifles, so were that much more steady. And when you pulled the trigger, there was less time before the pellet was headed down the barrel.
- Then they went to co2, to eliminate the physical effort to charge the SSP.
- Then to Compressed Air/PCP, to eliminate the ambient temp issues of co2.
The co2 issue is increased pressure in the tank, when the ambient temp is HIGH. This can cause the valve to lock up and not release. Some guns have this problem others don't. So far, I have not run into the problem, and I've shot from about 48F to about 105F. At 105F, it was ME that was having the problem with the heat.
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Wait....
So you mean there is hope for my AR2078-B to see outdoors yet?!
;)
If it hits 105f here something is wrong... terribly wrong... and I am not venturing outside.
But it is below 50f here 50% of the year. We are just now coming into that season.
::)
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HD
It depends on the gun.
Your co2 rifle may behave different than my co2 pistol to the temp.
And you yourself are a variable.
- Below 50F my fingers get too cold to feel and control the trigger, so it is ME that has to stop shooting, not the pistol.
- I when shooting center fire pistols with my brother-in-law, the ambient temp was about 110F. The metal frame guns got too HOT to hold (bare handed), and we had to quit shooting.
BTW, I was told by one coach that is why they prefer wood stock over the fancy aluminum stocks. Woods stocks do not get so hot that they almost burn the shooter, aluminum stocks do.
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Sorry about that ac12, I was meaning that to be a little tongue in cheek comment.
My CO2 guns don't perform well below about 55... But it's been what seems like such a long winter here.
I have a rifle that has yet to see actual daylight and only had my CO2 pistols outdoors once since November.
But to the other extreme I do not handle any triple digits temps well. We have humidity along with the heat here.
I have shot PB's in the summer to the point you could not see the target because of the heat waves coming off the barrel. But any more, I'll stay inside if I can when it's that hot.
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This is the pellet trap I'll be using, at least to start with, for the 10 Meter rifle event. I clip a card stock backing with a target overlaying to the clip board. I cut the center from a clip board and have groves constructed in the trap that allow that unit to slide into the front. It does make changing targets easy and quick. My ballistic putty is a 2" thick layer of duct seal stacked at the back of the trap box. The target displayed in the photo is one of GTA's pdf files that I printed off on 20 lb. paper but since my ink jet eats ink cartridges I thought it would be more economical to buy commercial AR-5/5 targets than home print.
If I run out of my stash of card stock I have started saving Raisin Brain cereal boxes for backing thanks to ac12's suggestion.
(http://i.imgur.com/23MrDeA.jpg)
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The "Air Rifle Shooting" book arrived today. I'm looking forward to getting into it. Looking at the cover photo you notice the young lady holding a bit of roll to the left. Is that normal with some shooters?
I keep thinking about ac12's warning about going down the rabbit hole. I do think I'm beginning to peer over the edge. ;)
Raining here again today but I do think I may get the range setup outside sometime this week. Fingers crossed.
P.S. Looks like they're still into the 1st Edition.
(http://i.imgur.com/umE7QLW.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/CHs3KeJ.jpg)
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Pat
I hold my rifle similar to her.
Note that her head is upright, rather than bent down over the comb of the stock.
That is why the rifle is canted, to allow her to keep her head upright.
So rather than bring your head down to the rifle, you turn the rifle to the face.
So why the upright head?
It makes it easier to keep your balance when your head is upright.
And you eliminate the tension in the neck from bending the head over the stock.
The tricky part of canting the rifle is to be able to duplicate the cant angle shot after shot after shot. A bubble level is NOT allowed, so it becomes tricky to do. Two method are:
- To use a front insert with a horizontal bar, then use the angle of the bar from horizontal, to reference to.
- Or to use a front sight that rotates or cants, then the bar can be made horizontal, which is easier to do than an angled bar.
I use clear inserts, so it is a bit difficult for me to duplicate the cant angle.
Sometimes you have to use riser blocks to raise the sights to let you keep your head upright. But there is a max of I think 60mm from center of bore to sight line.
The other method is to use an offset riser block. It raises the sight, but also offsets the sight Xmm to the side, so that you don't have to cant the rifle as much.
"Welcome to wonderland," said the white rabbit to Alice.
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Tip
When reading the book, do a quick view of what is in the book.
Then take the book a small piece at a time; to read and practice what is in the chapter.
It is easy to become overwhelmed by the information, especially when most of it is new to you. I think the stance took me a couple weeks, as the European stance was all new to me.
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ac12
Thanks very much for the info and tip. Interesting, interesting.
In the other world I have found that I like my head as upright as possible but have always tried to avoid rolling the sight. This is going to be very interesting and fun to learn these new techniques. Pulling at the bit to get started.
Thanks again.
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When you cant the rifle, try to keep your right elbow tucked in next to your body, rather than let it stick out like a wing. That helps for stability.