GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Gippeto on March 25, 2017, 11:27:15 PM
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What I know so far;
Believe it's co2, barrel is roughly .30cal. Appears to have been mag fed. Probe retracts from the projectile when you cam the bolt closed. Barrel is approx 28" from transfer ports to muzzle.
The "story" that has accompanied the rifle is "Prototype for the military circa WW2"...as with most such stories...seems rather too fantastic.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/20170325_114133_zps5x8kbe06.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/20170325_114201_zpsvnb4vbie.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/20170325_114226_zps5rajwifp.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/20170325_114250_zpsax4x7e3i.jpg)
Have more pics if needed.
Thanks,
Al
Edit: Photobucket has seen fit to give everyone issues. As a result, I have uploaded the pictures to Flickr;
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78948437@N04/albums/72157683799586320 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78948437@N04/albums/72157683799586320)
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All I can say is "Wow." That is an impressive looking piece of hardware.
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I hope someone has an answer as that is very cool looking. Have you tried to slugging the bore to determine size? Regardless I'll be watching this thread.
Thank you for sharing the pictures. More would be cool, not for me to help with any answers you understand, more of a fascination.
Dave
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I pushed a .300 round ball through. Measures were varied, so figuring the bore is a little over that, but rifling marks were deep enough that it's somewhat close...likely no more than .310" Will dig out some .310" ball tomorrow and see how it goes. The .300 was sitting on the shelf "right there".
More pics can be found here;
http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/library/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun?sort=3&page=1 (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/library/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun?sort=3&page=1)
Al
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That's a great find, Al! The retracting probe is REALLY interesting.
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Is the link for the other pictures working? Had a couple guys tell me it's not but seems to work for me even if I log out.
Al
Edit; New link
http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/library/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/library/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun)
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Both links work for me. That is an interesting find. Hopefully someone can identify it.
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I have never seen anything like it. Might it be a a true airgun? I looked at all the pics but didn't notice how it's charged. I mean air charged instead of Co2. It is built like a tank so it might be military. Those white seals look interesting for so old a rifle. Another thought.....might it be a carnival gun......magazine fed and all. That little screw in thing just in front of the trigger looks like it was meant to be mounted to something. Just throwing stuff against the wall to see if any sticks. Very cool find.
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A fellow on the Yellow made the comment that if it were military, it would be festooned with markings...a valid point I'm thinking, but not ruling anything out.
Reservoir is charged from the front via what appears to be an 11x1.0mm fitting (which will have to be reproduced). The fitting in the end of the tube has a check valve in it. Sealing diameter of the poppet is just over .6", and would be nigh on impossible to open with the striker and spring in the rifle...pretty sure it's co2. Throat and ports are also freaking huge. 8)
White seals are nylon, using delrin/acetal for the new ones. Screw in thing in front of the trigger is a plug for the vertical hole in what I'm calling the transfer block. It's also threaded for the stock mounting bolt...which is currently missing.
For what it's worth, and just to keep life interesting...there is an odd mixture of SAE AND metric throughout...both for threads AND dimensions. :o Tube threads for example, are 3/4-18 at the transfer block and 3/4x 1.0mm (possibly 19x1.0mm) on the other end...
Edit; Also, did slug the bore today with a tight fitting bit of lead....mics .3005" and .3000" at the groove. It'll shoot JSB's. 8) Will be in the new pics later tonight. Lesson learned...don't trust the size of ballistics products round ball.... ::)
Al
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Well if it is a prototype there might not be any markings on it. Mix of SAE and metrics? Does not sound American.
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I can't help but think I've seen that rifle before. Not in person, of course, but I can't remember where. I want to say it was when I was looking up airguns on USPTO website. The barrel is what stands out to me. It has a pretty unique shape.
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I have the same sense of deja vu, but it's the stock and how it's fit around the reservoir... I KNOW I've seen it somewhere...but I've also frequented gun shows around the province where this may have been on display...so I just don't know. That you believe you've seen it too gives me a little hope that there may be some information somewhere.
Anyhow;
Fill adapter is finished. 11x1mm to foster, flanged seal from teflon. Reservoir is resealed and holding 1000psi and no bubbles! 8) Couple more bits to make and it will bark once more. 8)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_6008_zpsspufp4ef.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/media/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_6008_zpsspufp4ef.jpg.html)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_6009_zpssrdwtrvi.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/media/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_6009_zpssrdwtrvi.jpg.html)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_6010_zpsjhhfhjpk.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/media/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_6010_zpsjhhfhjpk.jpg.html)
Al
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Neat rifle. Looking forward to updates. Thank you.
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Nicely done. That barrel really bites the pellet well. As others have said, built like a tank. 30 cal seems awful big for a carnival gun.
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Very interesting rifle there. I hope you can get it identified &&&& working !
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Interesting, tagging this to see what turns up.
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It's killing me that I can't remember where I've possibly seen this before. >:(
I'm thinking that if you contact the NRA museum or the people who produce the airgun value books the mystery might be solved. Could turn out that you hit the airgun lottery, or just have a neat piece of history. It'll be awesome if you find it's a one holer.
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If it were a prototype trainer for the US military would it not try to emulate an M1 or '03 Springfield rifle ? For basic marksmanship training I think .22 rimfire rifles would also be cheaper, and if indoor practice was the goal I don't think .30 cal would've been the choice.
I just don't see how this could ever be a military trainer.
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If it were a prototype trainer for the US military would it not try to emulate an M1 or '03 Springfield rifle ? For basic marksmanship training I think .22 rimfire rifles would also be cheaper, and if indoor practice was the goal I don't think .30 cal would've been the choice.
I just don't see how this could ever be a military trainer.
When he mentioned sae and metric fittings plus CO2, made in Philippines came to mind. But that hasn't panned out for me during my searches. No markings doesn't help.
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If it were a prototype trainer for the US military would it not try to emulate an M1 or '03 Springfield rifle ? For basic marksmanship training I think .22 rimfire rifles would also be cheaper, and if indoor practice was the goal I don't think .30 cal would've been the choice.
I just don't see how this could ever be a military trainer.
When he mentioned sae and metric fittings plus CO2, made in Philippines came to mind. But that hasn't panned out for me during my searches. No markings doesn't help.
something about that over-exaggerated pistol grip and comparatively narrow butt stock strike me as non American for some reason, so Philippines is a possibility.
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My searches are coming up empty as well, but Philippine air rifles are something I have researched quite a bit in the past...possible.
I don't really believe it's a military prototype, that's just the story that was told and passed down to the fellow who currently owns the rifle. Doubt they were meaning US military as well seeing as it was found in the "middle of nowhere Alberta". Uk, Europe or Canada would be far more likely if this were actually the case.
I have great difficulty believing any military would have a use for an over complicated, low powered (co2), .30 cal "bb gun" when simple, economical powder burning options abound.
Al
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I looked and came up empty too but did find an interesting article about the British promoting air guns to increase accuracy and experience after losing a war. https://bsamuseum.wordpress.com/page-6/
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Cool. 8) Appreciate you curious fellows digging around on this too...thank you.
Not as much shop time as I was hoping for, but did get the stock mount screw made. Then couldn't resist a little test fire. :)
Old girl does have a little bit of snort. 1000psi N2 fills, fired some shots at the old fire pit..steel @ ~30 yrds. These are the ones I recovered. Obvious declining shot string, but to be expected from a co2 rifle running on nitrogen.
Edit: I suppose that until I actually chrony it, I'll say "seems like" a declining shot string. ;)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/20170329_170103_zpsolctmxo2.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/media/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/20170329_170103_zpsolctmxo2.jpg.html)
Needs a bit more work...and maybe some play too. :lol:
Al
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Loving it, keep it coming.
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I remembered this article showing how to tell fps by splatter and your pellets are perfect for this. https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/09/splatology/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/09/splatology/)
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May sound crazy. Is there any chance this is a Quackenbush prototype?
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May sound crazy. Is there any chance this is a Quackenbush prototype?
I wouldn't believe so based on the front sight. He keeps his designs pretty straight forward, and this one seems stylized.
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What ever it is it's way up there on the cool factor scale.
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Interesting reading TF89. Splatology. :) Of course that was with round balls rather than pellets but it looks like you may be getting around 500 fps on highest power. That front sight does look very intricate. Very strange that there are no ID marks at all. Wonder what the magazine looked like?
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BTW as to finding it in "middle of nowhere Alberta", I'm a big tag sale and flea market troller. I look for anything interesting. Some of the weird stuff I've found, around the northeast US, is astounding. No idea how it made it's way here from around the world, yet here it was.
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love a good mystery. after being here in the philippines a year now and seeing all sorts of airguns and such, i'd tend to not think it came from here for several reasons. almost every airgun made here is in .22. a few .177 . brass was used extensively as it's easy to work with. another reason is the mechanisms seem a bit more complicated than what would have been made here years ago. even the front site seems more complicated than would be on an older gun here. almost all the older guns are hammer , rolling block types. even saw one with an insert that blocked the hammer from hitting the valve stem, but instead it would hit a firing pin and fire .22 rimfire. the local .22 pellets won't fit regular airguns. too big diameter.
the newer guns here are being made with aluminum and steel, still mostly in .22. occasionaly a .25 or .177 if someone can scrounge up a barrel. some import guns here now.
not too definitely say not from here, but it doesn't seem to fit what i've seen here. there is a local gun maker i shoot with, next time he stops by i'll show him the pics and see what he thinks. there is another member here that is a filipino, i'll have him
check out the pics and see if he has any insight to this mystery.
peace
kj
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Any input is good input, thanks. :D
Finished the shot tray and ran it over the chrony this morning with the 46.3gr JSB's on a 1000psi N2 fill. Will put pics of the shot tray on the photobucket link in a bit.
775, 714,627, 502, 323...so...confirmed declining shot string. Need to make a fitting for a co2 fire extinguisher and then I'll see what it does on co2.
Al
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I just thought of another place that might know. Could try contacting the Beeman Museum. Supposedly they've seen everything. If it's still up and running.
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Cant you hook a paintball gun tank to it?
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love a good mystery. after being here in the philippines a year now and seeing all sorts of airguns and such, i'd tend to not think it came from here for several reasons. almost every airgun made here is in .22. a few .177 . brass was used extensively as it's easy to work with. another reason is the mechanisms seem a bit more complicated than what would have been made here years ago. even the front site seems more complicated than would be on an older gun here. almost all the older guns are hammer , rolling block types. even saw one with an insert that blocked the hammer from hitting the valve stem, but instead it would hit a firing pin and fire .22 rimfire. the local .22 pellets won't fit regular airguns. too big diameter.
the newer guns here are being made with aluminum and steel, still mostly in .22. occasionaly a .25 or .177 if someone can scrounge up a barrel. some import guns here now.
not too definitely say not from here, but it doesn't seem to fit what i've seen here. there is a local gun maker i shoot with, next time he stops by i'll show him the pics and see what he thinks. there is another member here that is a filipino, i'll have him
check out the pics and see if he has any insight to this mystery.
peace
kj
kevin my knowledge with philippine made big bore airguns are, first its usually a smooth bore, second its dual caliber the large caliber barrel,acts as a sleeve for the rifled barrel usually in 22 cal,
most i have seen have tube cartridges which can be loaded with buck shot or duck shot, lead balls
but i could be wrong also..there are lots of unknown makers also..lol
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Cant you hook a paintball gun tank to it?
Now that I have a full paintball tank...yep. ;D
Al
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Could you post a pic with it back together, please? Glad it's up and running.... 8)
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(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_6015_zps7wd51hnr.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/media/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_6015_zps7wd51hnr.jpg.html)
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What's your thinking on the sights? Did I see holes drilled for side mounted rear sight of some kind? Peep?
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Interesting looking rifle. I like the low comb.
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What's your thinking on the sights? Did I see holes drilled for side mounted rear sight of some kind? Peep?
These here? Does look like something was mounted there, and a sight seems most likely. Have no idea what type...overly complicated perhaps?? ;)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_5936_zpsmykqkefo.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/gippeto_album/media/Old%2030%20cal%20airgun/IMG_5936_zpsmykqkefo.jpg.html)
Al
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have you been able to identify the wood ? it may well yield a clue as to where it's from.
peace
kj
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Identifying wood species is lets say...not within my areas of expertise. ;)
Will see what I can find though, thanks for the idea. :D
Al
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That is an interesting sight mount arrangement. This is weird. It doesn't look like it's made as a prototype. It looks like it's a finished piece of engineering to my eyes. Who does that and isn't proud enough to let all know they made it? Does it seem like there is a missing piece that may have had the maker's mark on it?
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It does seem to be missing a few pieces actually....rear sight, magazine, whatever was mounted over the mag well, butt plate, and front sight blade. Stock mount screw was missing as well.
To be honest, I've never signed any of the stuff I built...never seemed important. :-\
Filled it up with co2 yesterday and let it sit overnight to warm up. Thermometer in the shop says 22C.
With the 46.3 JSB's, 698, 694,684 and stopped there. Reservoir was cooling so pressure was dropping.
Not too shabby. 8-)
Al
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any new info ?
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Nothing new.
As much as I've enjoyed working on the rifle and getting it shooting, it will be going home soon and I've a bunch of other projects vying for my time. I think I'll get some of the pictures posted on a few of the collector sites in hopes that someone, somewhere knows something about it, but I think that's as far as I'm going to go with it.
Appreciate all the interest.
Al
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Nothing new.
As much as I've enjoyed working on the rifle and getting it shooting, it will be going home soon and I've a bunch of other projects vying for my time. I think I'll get some of the pictures posted on a few of the collector sites in hopes that someone, somewhere knows something about it, but I think that's as far as I'm going to go with it.
Appreciate all the interest.
Al
well if you find out anything in the future post it up. i'm really curious
thanks
kj