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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Nitrocrushr on February 11, 2017, 06:56:56 PM
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******Update*******On page 3 you will see that this issue has been resolved and the R-10 is shooting GREAT 8) Feel free to browse through this post to see what led up to the final fix, or jump to page 3 for the final summary ;)
For an even quicker summary, the issues were;
Chrome Plating flaking off of the pellet probe. Literally hundreds of tiny shavings everywhere, including tiny shavings inside the bore
Thoroughly scrubbed all loose plating from pellet probe and inner pellet probe port with Scotch Brite
Completely polished pellet probe with 1200 grit wet/dry - inner layer of plating appears to be adhered ok and no more shavings coming off
Flushed all shavings from bore, action and magazines (both single shot and 10-shot rotary)
Lead fouling at the end of the choke
WD40 soaking and bronze brush to remove fouling
Lapped bore with Clover 400 grit
Lapped crown with Clover 400 grit and brass crown lap from Brownells
Today I took the R10 outside for some accuracy testing. The rifle is a BSA R10 MK2 in .22. I have installed a Huma regulator and always fill to 220 BAR.
I have been from 130-140 BAR on the regulator, running rsterne's hammer spring exercise at each setting and adjusting to a hammer spring tension that is right at the shoulder for whatever setting I am testing. Velocities have been extremely consistent, with my most recent setting at 139 BAR, hammer spring set right at the shoulder with an average velocity of 897, Extreme Spread of 6 and Standard Deviation of 1 across 32 shots before gradually dropping off of the regulator. Incredibly consistent rifle with that Huma regulator 8) It does seem to prefer settings from 135-140 BAR ;D
On target at 50 yards I have tested various combinations of BAR settings and velocities, with several pellet types (JSB 15.89, JSB 18.13 and AA 16 grain)
Looking at the groups, this rifle is acting like my TX200 did when the bore was fouled. All 3 pellet types will drill a single hole at 30 yards, but then fall apart at 50 yards. Groups at 50 yards average 3/4" ctc. I have had 3 or 4 in a 1/4" hole, then a flier 1/2" away. Some groups are 3/4" with all fliers, no pellets touching. No pellet change or velocity change has had an impact on this. I even pulled the scope and installed another scope, no good. Tested a few groups with the barrel shroud off, no change. Sand bag position changes, same. One of the times when it was acting up at 50 yards, I shot a group at 30 yards....it was about 3/4" :o
I did notice that when I ran dry patches through the bore, it seemed very greasy. I have been dry patching with my crown saver every 75-100 shots and can feel no lead fouling. Late this afternoon I ran a couple dry patches through the bore, then used 2 patches lightly dampened with alcohol to try and get the greasiness out, followed by a couple more dry patches. After this scrub I could definitely feel that the patches had some drag on them and the bore was no longer greasy. Groups after this were VERY good 8) The wind was right to left from 2-6 mph and I was getting 5-6 in 1/4-3/8" ctc holes, with only an occasional flier causing the groups to be 1/2" ctc or a bit less, but a HUGE improvement. I wrote the occasional fliers off to the cross wind. Aside from that, the rifle seemed exceptionally easy to group single tight holes at 50 yards after this bore scrub. The alcohol scrub was the only time I made an impact on the groups today, and all 3 pellet types grouped very well during the shot string following this bore cleaning. The accuracy issues returned soon after the next tank fill.
Looking at these JSB's, I noticed that they have a slippery coating on them. I think this is what is making the bore greasy. Are there PCP rifles that simply do not like the slippery, pre-lubed pellets? Would it be worth a try to soak a tin in hot water and a degreasing dish washing soap? This is the only thing I can think of at this point. When bore has a greasy feel to it, groups are radical. Scrub it with alcohol and the rifle seems to group.
Thoughts?
Steve
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I'd clean some and just see. Sounds highly possible that could help alot
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I'd clean some and just see. Sounds highly possible that could help alot
Thanks Dillon, I'm going to give it a try. I'll scrub the grease out of the bore and shoot a couple strings of degreased JSB's. By the end of the 2nd string I'll know if it worked. Simple enough ;)
By the way, I'm using the single shot tray and not the rotary magazine.
Steve
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To me it sounds like a wind deflection issue.
The difference between a 2 MPH wind and a 6 mph wind , is profound.
This is not going to rear its ugly head at 30 yards nearly as badly as it will at 50.
At 75 and 100 yards the groupings fall apart completely.
Keep in mind that wind isn't just wind from one direction. It's turbulence. It can shift your point of impact in all directions.
Wind can also affect the projectile many times with various different deflections on its way to the target.
This is why people have a hard time explaining what they are calling fliers.
For instance. A shooter who knows how to dope the wind, does so at 50 yards holding off to the left of Zero to compensate for wind coming from his left side.
Result: the projectile hits right where he was aiming. Whereas the 3 shots prior connected with bullseye.
Additionally the shooter continues to hold left because the majority of his shots are hitting close to, or bullseye. All of a sudden one strays off to the right 1/4 inch.
It happens all the time.
You were probably not holding off for wind and just going for group size. Figuring all projectiles should hit close to each other in a 2-6mph wind.
It will make you scratch your head, but it probably isn't going to happen. At 75 and 100, it gets really bad. Unmercifully bad.
I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with the scope you were using and that this is the culprit.
All the symptoms are there.
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To me it sounds like a wind deflection issue.
The difference between a 2 MPH wind and a 6 mph wind , is profound.
This is not going to rear its ugly head at 30 yards nearly as badly as it will at 50.
At 75 and 100 yards the groupings fall apart completely.
Keep in mind that wind isn't just wind from one direction. It's turbulence. It can shift your point of impact in all directions.
Wind can also affect the projectile many times with various different deflections on its way to the target.
This is why people have a hard time explaining what they are calling fliers.
For instance. A shooter who knows how to dope the wind, does so at 50 yards holding off to the left of Zero to compensate for wind coming from his left side.
Result: the projectile hits right where he was aiming. Whereas the 3 shots prior connected with bullseye.
Additionally the shooter continues to hold left because the majority of his shots are hitting close to, or bullseye. All of a sudden one strays off to the right 1/4 inch.
It happens all the time.
You were probably not holding off for wind and just going for group size. Figuring all projectiles should hit close to each other in a 2-6mph wind.
It will make you scratch your head, but it probably isn't going to happen. At 75 and 100, it gets really bad. Unmercifully bad.
I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with the scope you were using and that this is the culprit.
All the symptoms are there.
Thanks Quigley, that is a definite possibility. I'll have to test again in calmer conditions. I was shooting due West and wind was north to south. Perhaps the tight groups I was seeing occurred when the wind was steady. I was not doping at all.
Steve
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Thanks Quigley, that is a definite possibility. I'll have to test again in calmer conditions. I was shooting due West and wind was north to south. Perhaps the tight groups I was seeing occurred when the wind was steady. I was not doping at all.
Steve
You are most welcome, sir.
I have encountered what you are experiencing many times.
I'm fortunate in that, I have my own outdoor range that I can light up at night at 25, 50 , 75 and 100 yards.
Early morning, late evening and night is when winds ( or lack thereof, I should say) are most optimal for precision air guns.
Many nights give you premium shooting conditions. This is how you can determine true fliers.
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Thanks Quigley, that is a definite possibility. I'll have to test again in calmer conditions. I was shooting due West and wind was north to south. Perhaps the tight groups I was seeing occurred when the wind was steady. I was not doping at all.
Steve
You are most welcome, sir.
I have encountered what you are experiencing many times.
I'm fortunate in that, I have my own outdoor range that I can light up at night at 25, 50 , 75 and 100 yards.
Early morning, late evening and night is when winds ( or lack thereof, I should say) are most optimal for precision air guns.
Many nights give you premium shooting conditions. This is how you can determine true fliers.
I bought a portable flood light Quigly, so now I can test at night when the wind is lowest (hopefully dead calm) ;) I took a look at approximate velocities and BC's at 50 yards, and then entered cross breeze varying from 3-6. No doubt, this would have been the variation I was seeing. I should have known better as my springers are sub 12 fpe and I always pick calm when I want to group test. For some reason I was thinking that the FAC .22 would resist the wind drift a little better in the light breeze. Being a 100% direct cross breeze didn't help either . I should have known better. There are tools available and I didn't use them ::)
Looking forward to follow up testing in calm conditions. After I see that it groups at 50 and beyond I'll pick the pellet it likes best, and I can then begin shooting in the breeze and practice doping ;D
Steve
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Steve, if you can get that flood light looking at the skirt of the pellets as you shoot you should be able to easily see if they're spiraling on you. At first I thought you may have an issue with the muzzle crown (I had a bad crown on a .177 scorpion that made every pellet spiral) but where your problem comes and goes I doubt it's that. Good luck to you sir, I hope you get it sorted!
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Lots of variables can cause a loss in accuracy. I just went through a period with my BSA R10 MK2 .177. It would be nice to be able to "accurately" identify the cause at each juncture but I'm just not that competent. When you finally get it sorted and accuracy returns, that sigh of relief is welcome...until the next time. Longer distances make things more difficult but it's still fun to push limits and learn.
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I did some more shooting tonight and I think I made some headway in narrowing down the root cause. I will outline the steps of my testing in order with photos below.
Instead of 50 yards I decided to do all my tests tonight at 30 yards. I knew the BSA R10 could print single hole at this distance, but towards the end yesterday, it was scattering even at 30 yards, and pretty badly too.
First group with R10 at 30 yards, rifle was untouched since yesterday. Looks like a shotgun blast. I was aiming for the "0" on the target
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/BSA%20R10%20Group%201.jpg)
As a test for myself, I grabbed my Air Arms Pro-Sport .177 (11.8 fpe). Here is a 5-shot group at 30 yards with that rifle. A single tiny hole and that is a .177 pellet beside the hole as a reference. So, this told me there was definitely something going on with this BSA. Same distance, same conditions, BIG difference.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Pro-Sport%20group%20at%2030%20yards.jpg)
Took the R10 back to the shop, removed the shroud and inspected the inside of the bore and crown area with a flashlight and a magnifying glass. I swear it looked like the last quarter inch of the bore had the rifling filled in almost smooth with lead? Right in the barrel choke area. I took a .177 bronze brush and carefully inserted it into the bore, and then with light pressure pulled it back out. I repeated this all the way around the end of the bore until it looked like the rifling was clean. Next, using my crown saver I pulled 2 dry patches through the bore. Next, 2 patches dampened with alcohol to remove the lube from the JSB pellets. Lastly, 2 more dry patches.
Next, I put some alcohol into a plastic container and sloshed 15 pellets around to remove all of the JSB lube. I then dumped them out onto a towel and thoroughly dried them.
Reinstalled the barrel shroud and back to the range. Using my single shot adapter I began shooting a group. All pellets were going into the exact same hole at first. At about shot 5, the hole began to grow. It was even, but getting larger........and then on shot 9 the POI shifted suddenly to about 1/2" high. Here is that group.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/BSA%20R10%20after%20barrel%20clean.jpg)
I then moved over to another area of the target and shot the remaining 6 shots. I was aiming at the cross point of the lines below the #2 on this target. Look how they were beginning to scatter in less then 10 shots. Again, this was all on the same target, 30 yards and exact same conditions.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/BSA%20R10%20beginning%20to%20scatter.jpg)
This testing told me that the JSB lube had nothing to do with it, and I am guessing I have a fouling problem in this barrel right inside the bore in the area of the choke.
Yesterday after the barrel clean, I had a 1/4" 5 shot group at 50 yards, then it was all down hill after that. This matches what I saw tonight at 30.
Thoughts?
Steve
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Hmmm.
Single load a pellet and Put a Kleenex over the top of the pellet port.
Fire the shot and watch the kleenex. If you see a puff or air hit it , you have a defective breech o-ring. Or if it sounds funny when firing.
This combined with wind.....well.
Worth a try.
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Hmmm.
Single load a pellet and Put a Kleenex over the top of the pellet port.
Fire the shot and watch the kleenex. If you see a puff or air hit it , you have a defective breech o-ring. Or if it sounds funny when firing.
This combined with wind.....well.
Worth a try.
Gave it a try, no leak detected. It's still very consistent over the chronograph to. Single digit ES.
Steve
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I did some more shooting tonight and I think I made some headway in narrowing down the root cause. I will outline the steps of my testing in order with photos below.
This testing told me that the JSB lube had nothing to do with it, and I am guessing I have a fouling problem in this barrel right inside the bore in the area of the choke.
Yesterday after the barrel clean, I had a 1/4" 5 shot group at 50 yards, then it was all down hill after that. This matches what I saw tonight at 30.
Thoughts? Steve
Hey Steve,
Was going to mention this last night, but I thought this discussion was a little out of my "Area".
However, it seems pretty clear the barrel's choke is overly (choked) Tight :P.
Trying to remember how the pull the barrel, so that you can clean using a jag from the breach. Once this is accomplished, I think you need to lap the bore with some lapping paste, especially the choke area.
Then run a pellet down the barrel for to ensure consistency of movement, with some tightening in the choke area.
Contact Motorhead and see what he thinks, but everything else, as far as air flow, is running perfectly.
Gotta be the barrel ;). This problem is Scott's forte ;D.
Good luck :D.
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I did some more shooting tonight and I think I made some headway in narrowing down the root cause. I will outline the steps of my testing in order with photos below.
This testing told me that the JSB lube had nothing to do with it, and I am guessing I have a fouling problem in this barrel right inside the bore in the area of the choke.
Yesterday after the barrel clean, I had a 1/4" 5 shot group at 50 yards, then it was all down hill after that. This matches what I saw tonight at 30.
Thoughts? Steve
Hey Steve,
Was going to mention this last night, but I thought this discussion was a little out of my "Area".
However, it seems pretty clear the barrel's choke is overly (choked) Tight :P.
Trying to remember how the pull the barrel, so that you can clean using a jag from the breach. Once this is accomplished, I think you need to lap the bore with some lapping paste, especially the choke area.
Then run a pellet down the barrel for to ensure consistency of movement, with some tightening in the choke area.
Contact Motorhead and see what he thinks, but everything else, as far as air flow, is running perfectly.
Gotta be the barrel ;). This problem is Scott's forte ;D.
Good luck :D.
Hi Kirk, When I first got the rifle I stripped it down, removed the barrel and fully polished the bore with VFG felt pellets soaked in oil and smothered with JB Bore Paste. I have done this on all my rifles so far. When I was done I slowly pressed a pellet through the bore and the bore was very smooth, with what felt like only a slight choke at the very end. I would say it is no tighter than any of the chokes on my Air Arms or Weihrauch springers. It didn't feel bad at all. Like I said in my post above, I am almost certain what I was seeing was the rifling almost smoothed over completely in the last 1/4" in the choke area. I used a flashlight and a big magnifying glass and it sure looked smooth to me.
Immediately after scrubbing the choke out and cleaning the bore, the rifle was single hole again at 30 yards. But as I said above, this is short lived and it begins to scatter again in less than 10 shots.
I could pull this barrel off again and concentrate on polishing more in the choke area, but if the barrel is off....I'm more inclined to just replace it. Before the fouling hits, this thing will dump 5 in a 1/4" at 50 yards so it would be worth it to me to get that accuracy without the fouling 8)
You're right, this is one of Scott's areas. Hopefully he will chime in here before too long ;D
Steve
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Like I said in my post above, I am almost certain what I was seeing was the rifling almost smoothed over completely in the last 1/4" in the choke area. I used a flashlight and a big magnifying glass and it sure looked smooth to me.
Immediately after scrubbing the choke out and cleaning the bore, the rifle was single hole again at 30 yards. But as I said above, this is short lived and it begins to scatter again in less than 10 shots.
I could pull this barrel off again and concentrate on polishing more in the choke area, but if the barrel is off....I'm more inclined to just replace it. Before the fouling hits, this thing will dump 5 in a 1/4" at 50 yards so it would be worth it to me to get that accuracy without the fouling 8)
You're right, this is one of Scott's areas. Hopefully he will chime in here before too long ;D
Steve
So Steve,
After bore brushing, was the rifling nice and visible at the choke, or do you think just too much choke, causing lead build up at that point?
Boy, I'd hate to pay for another barrel if the current one can be fixed :P. Then again, if purchased from PA or AGD, they may replace it for free! After all, it's not like you're a newbie, trying "Cowboy methods" to solve the problem ::).
Good Luck :D
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Like I said in my post above, I am almost certain what I was seeing was the rifling almost smoothed over completely in the last 1/4" in the choke area. I used a flashlight and a big magnifying glass and it sure looked smooth to me.
Immediately after scrubbing the choke out and cleaning the bore, the rifle was single hole again at 30 yards. But as I said above, this is short lived and it begins to scatter again in less than 10 shots.
I could pull this barrel off again and concentrate on polishing more in the choke area, but if the barrel is off....I'm more inclined to just replace it. Before the fouling hits, this thing will dump 5 in a 1/4" at 50 yards so it would be worth it to me to get that accuracy without the fouling 8)
You're right, this is one of Scott's areas. Hopefully he will chime in here before too long ;D
Steve
So Steve,
After bore brushing, was the rifling nice and visible at the choke, or do you think just too much choke, causing lead build up at that point?
Boy, I'd hate to pay for another barrel if the current one can be fixed :P. Then again, if purchased from PA or AGD, they may replace it for free! After all, it's not like you're a newbie, trying "Cowboy methods" to solve the problem ::).
Good Luck :D
I could start to see the rifling definition again, but I think it still had some fouling. Thats why it only lasted for less than 10 shots. The choke didnt feel all that tight, perhaps there is some roughness within the choke that is holding lead? I did see some faint lines at the end when the barrel was new.
Steve
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Throughout all of this, the velocities have been EXTREMELY consistent. Here is a shot string from yesterday.
Extreme Spread - 6
Standard Deviation - 1
33 regulated shots before gradually coming off the regulator.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/IMG_4128.jpg)
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I found my pictures showing the inside of my bore. You can see the faint lines I was talking about. They were still visible after polishing. These were taken when barrel was new.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/IMG_4162.png)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/IMG_4163.png)
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400 Clover, Tight patches on a round jag tip/hard rod and give it a good burnishing job.
Too bad your across the country ... barrel in hand a 20- 30 min process
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This may sound crazy, but you didn't mention the way you fill.
Reason I ask, is that some showbox owners using the newer silicone oil lube system on them is putting silicone oil into the fill bottles or reservoir of the guns. And of course, it will leave a fairly thick film of silicone in the barrel is short order.
This is actually a welcome thing for a big bore shooter. But not for pellet shooting rifles. It's too thick!
Don't know that this is the type of filling you are doing. Just a thought. ;)
Also, looking at the pic's of your crown, it is beautifully recessed. However, I do not see an actual crown on the very edge for the rifling. Odd!
Knife
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Might not help at all but here is a pic of my Scorpion Barrel, still dirty but gives you something to compare to. Can take a pic after a cleaning too if you like, I was going to clean it anyway.
I thought that was a better pic that that, I will try to get you a better one in the daylight.
Edit; It's a bit better now.
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400 Clover, Tight patches on a round jag tip/hard rod and give it a good burnishing job.
Too bad your across the country ... barrel in hand a 20- 30 min process
Thanks Scott, I might get some Clover 400 and polish that last 1/4-1/2" of the bore. Those tooling marks must be snagging lead and causing the end of barrel fouling.
Yes, the crown is recessed but squared off with no taper.
I get my tank filled at a local dive shop. They claim their air is very dry and breathable.
robertr - Thanks for the picture. Your rifling is completely defined at the end. On mine, it looked almost like a smooth bore in the last 1/4" :o
Steve
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Check out this video on barrel lapping. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXzmlDT-yxE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXzmlDT-yxE)
Part1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM8xaaUaTTY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM8xaaUaTTY)
It gets a bit erotic near the end if you read the subtitles!
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I had a similar "problem" with my .177 BSA R10. It would not shoot JSB 7.9 or 8.4 grain pellets to save it's life. I added a HuMa regulator and still no luck with them - I was in the 15 to 16 FPE with them. I happened on a few AA 10.3 pellets and wow what a difference. I was able to easily shoot sub MOA accuracy at 55 yards on the Hunter FT mode - I bought a dozen tins to have them available. It almost became boring - that and I would grow tired after shooting roughly 80 to 90 shots in one session without a refill. Anyway, the stock was not the best setup for Unlimited FT/WFTF, so I sold it recently and tuned it for higher FPE for the new buyer - around 22 to 25 FPE. I could not test the accuracy in NE Ohio, but when the buyer got it, he reported that it shot like a shotgun with AA 10.3's. He turned it back down to 900 fps or just below and the accuracy returned. At the same time, I purchased a nice Gamo Dynamax (aka BSA Sprotsman HV) in .22 for hunting - no bells and whistles on this guy. I tuned it as high as I could go while still getting 25 good shots within 4% ES. I was able to achieve 3/4" grouping at 55 yards, while the weather was cooperating over the weekend with JSB 18's. I brought it inside to practice in my 10-yard range in the cellar and tried the JSB 15.9's - a bunch left over from my previous .22 springer. Anyway, I could not get any type of grouping even at 10 yards - pellets were wondering up to about 1-inch. Based on this and other reports online, I suspect that the BSA barrels do not like high speeds. Maybe this has something to do with their twist rate or maybe just the pellet-barrel-velocity magic formula.
So, long story short - maybe it is going too fast for the BSA barrel. Try either turning the speed down or upping the pellet to JSB 18's. Worth a shot before more lapping of the barrel.
Dan
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Lol I was shooting the 8.44 gr JSB and Polymags at 1000fps as it came from the box and they shot very very accurately single hole at 25yds never tried out farther but I did end up turning it down to 890 with 10.3 and still shot great so idk if it's the speed exactly. That's a bummer though as I loved my BSA R10 real accurate and sweet shooter
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I agree. Finding the right velocity/pellet/distance combo can make a huge difference. 10.65 H&N work pretty good for me. I gotta get me some AA10.3 and give 'em a try.
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Shooting off the knee of the velocity curve I can get velocities from 860-905 (15.89 gr) using Huma regulator settings of 130-140 BAR. I've tested JSB 15.89, 18.1 grain and AA 16 grain pellets. I was at 139 BAR and 897 fps with the 15.89's when I finally realized the choke was fouled. That is where the rifle is set right now. During the testing when I was trying to drill down on the accuracy problems, I had tested from 130-140. Even with the fouling, the groups seemed to be tightest in the 890 fps range. At this point I have no option but to scrub that fouling out and while I am at it, I will polish that bore to get the tooling marks out of the choke. I'll get that complete this weekend and back to the range for more testing. If this fails, I will experiment with lower velocities (although I do think the fouling began at lower velocities and continued to worsen the more I shot). If all else fails, I will get a new barrel. John Knibbs has them in stock for under $100. I'll know if the bore scrub and polishing helped by Sunday night. If it works I'll be good to go ;) If not, a new barrel will be on the way. I will send pictures of the tool marking in my bore and request that they inspect the new barrel before sending 8)
Steve
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Here's a couple of groups from tonight from my Dynamax .22 - I was lucky enough to have warmer and calm weather to get some longer range targets in. These are 55 yards in the dark with HFT mode - bucket and sticks, bore has not been cleaned in 100+ shots or so after tuning. With my rubber band tune, the 15.9's are going 880 fps, while the H&N extremes were going 820 fps, unfortunately I have not chrony'd the JSB 18's yet
The first one at the top is 10 shots with JSB 18's (target #2, targets are 1.25" at widest), a bit of left to right wiggle on my sticks is pretty evident in the nickle size group. The second one shows a great 5 shot group at the top with JSB 18, then a couple of 1" to 2" open groups with JSB 15.9. I also tried H&N Barracuda Hunter, which was open, but to that was to be expected. Then a final 5-shot group on #28 at the bottom - the one shot to the right was just after the H&N Hunters. I always find that when switching pellets, there is a couple of shot lag before the grouping returns. Point being - the JSB 18's seem to work well while the 15.9's do not - I am attributing that to speed, but there could be other issues at foot here. I could see a bit of a spiral in the 15.9's , since I was shooting under lights. Good luck with your barrel work.
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Hi All,
Worst case, could the damaged rifling be cut out of the bore with a lathe leaving the length and threads of the barrel alone? So the good rifling would end 1/4 before the crown?
Thanks,
Taso
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Hi All,
Worst case, could the damaged rifling be cut out of the bore with a lathe leaving the length and threads of the barrel alone? So the good rifling would end 1/4 before the crown?
Thanks,
Taso
The barrel might be a bit loose after that, although the "choke" (BSA says tapered barrel from hammer forging) is typically around 1" long.
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Hopefully a definitive cause and resolution will be found and we will all learn something.
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Here's a couple of groups from tonight from my Dynamax .22 - I was lucky enough to have warmer and calm weather to get some longer range targets in. These are 55 yards in the dark with HFT mode - bucket and sticks,
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the JSB 18's seem to work well while the 15.9's do not - I am attributing that to speed, but there could be other issues at foot here. I could see a bit of a spiral in the 15.9's , since I was shooting under lights.
That's really good shooting at 55 yards from a bucket and sticks, particularly being a 10-shot group. I'm not surprised the JSB 18.1 are shooting well but it's interesting that you're picking up spiraling with the 15.9. 880fps is not too fast. My experience has been that a rifle which shoot the 18.1 well will often shoot the 15.9 well. But if not, they at least didn't spiral. I shoot a good bit at night with the aid of a strong flashlight shining downrange so it's easy to follow the flight path. I guess it doesn't matter...use what works :)
Again, good shooting!
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I have never had good luck with the JSB 15.9/AA16/FX16's - I have several tins and I wind up using quite a few for chrony. It does remind me that I should order more 18's since I am down to my last tin. I have some lighter pellets to try when it warms up over the weekend. Just a reminder that the gun picks the pellets and you have to try a few before the right combination is found. I am interested to see how the barrel cleaning and polish help. I have to try the same on a Marauder .177 that shotgun patterns.
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I have never had good luck with the JSB 15.9/AA16/FX16's - I have several tins and I wind up using quite a few for chrony. It does remind me that I should order more 18's since I am down to my last tin. I have some lighter pellets to try when it warms up over the weekend. Just a reminder that the gun picks the pellets and you have to try a few before the right combination is found. I am interested to see how the barrel cleaning and polish help. I have to try the same on a Marauder .177 that shotgun patterns.
Yeah I can't wait to get back in the shop this weekend and tear into it. I'll be in the shop fresh cup of coffee in hand shortly after daybreak on Saturday morning ;) The brief moments where I was able to get a peak in the box at the accuracy potential of this rifle, I liked what I saw. Absolute single hole at 30 yards and 1/4"-3/8" ctc at 50 appear to be achievable....we'll see ;D
By the way NICE shooting!!! I hope to have a better accuracy report late Saturday or Sunday 8)
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A pic of one of my 50 y groups before snow fell and I went into semi-hibernation, 1/4" at 50 is definately achievable .
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A pic of one of my 50 y groups before snow fell and I went into semi-hibernation, 1/4" at 50 is definately achievable .
Nice group!! That's encouraging ;)
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A pic of one of my 50 y groups before snow fell and I went into semi-hibernation, 1/4" at 50 is definately achievable .
Not to get off track but I'd like to know where Robert got his hands on the R10 in Canada . I'd love to get one but can't find one here .
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I Have the Scorpion SE which is more or less the same breach and barrel, R-10 has the bottle, installed reg and the match trigger. AirgunSource had a R-10 which I almost bought but went for the cheaper Scorpion SE instead.
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I Have the Scorpion SE which is more or less the same breach and barrel, R-10 has the bottle, installed reg and the match trigger. AirgunSource had a R-10 which I almost bought but went for the cheaper Scorpion SE instead.
The trigger unit is the same in Scorpion and R10, adjustable blade position is the difference.
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Well I tore into the rifle first thing this morning and and pleased to say that I found something that could be contributing to some of my problems. The outer layer of chrome on the pellet probe was flaking off. There were literally hundreds of flakes of chrome all over the probe, and inside the ports at the end of the probe. Inserting a Q-tip into the bore pulled out tiny chrome shavings as well.
I took a scotch brite pad and thoroughly scrubbed the pellet probe until no more chrome was coming off. I even scrubbed inside the port at the end of the probe. This was followed by a polishing with 1200 grit wet/dry. At this point it appears as if it was the outer layer of chrome that did not bond to the layer beneath it. I can see no signs of any more chrome wanting to lift off and the probe looks good. I also had to flush all the chrome shavings from inside the probe guides. WHile I was at it, I polished the inner surface of the metal guide in an effort to smooth out the bolt action. Seems like it will be glassy smooth now 8)
Well, time to get back to work, bore has been soaking with WD40, time to scrub the lead fouling out of the choke and give it a polishing with Clover 400 ;)
Steve
You can see the ring of fouling right inside the edge of the crown. The Q-tip test did not show any signs of burs on the inside edge. Nice and smooth, but as I said, chrome shavings were stuck to the Q-tip when I pulled it out. It wasn't lead, it was mirror shiny chrome plating flakes.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Bore%20at%20Choke.jpg)
All this just to remove 2 little grub screws to get the barrel off :o
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Parts.jpg)
Inside the probe port you can see one of the many hundreds of chrome flakes. The entire probe and inner probe guide looked like a chrome plated porcupine.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Chrome%20Flake%20in%20Port.jpg)
Scrubbing/polishing out the port with scotch brite. This was done to the entire bolt probe. Spent about 30 minutes scrubbing the outer layer of chrome off, then polished with 1200 grit wet/dry. Remaining layers of chrome appear to be solidly adhered
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Scrubbing%20Port.jpg)
Polishing inside of the metal bolt probe guide - smooth as glass now ;D
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Polishing%20Bolt%20Guide.jpg)
Completed bolt assembly
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Completed%20Bolt%20Assembly.jpg)
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See you now have 1st hand experience taking apart the BSA receiver ... Fun huh ???
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Supposedly it is nickel plating that is coming off, caused by the ball the rides on the bolt.
There is a member on BSA forum ( Rancidtom ) that makes a Stainless Steel Probe to replace the stock one. Only problem is they are not available yet.
Keep checking XTX's website as they will be carrying them. I need to get one for my rifle.
Hopefully that is what is causing your problem, as long as the nickel plating does not scratch your barrel which was mentioned could happen.
Hear is a link to the thread. http://bsaog.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56436.0 (http://bsaog.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56436.0)
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See you now have 1st hand experience taking apart the BSA receiver ... Fun huh ???
Oh yeah, loads of fun just to get the barrel off ;D Oh well, Gave me a chance to look things over real well. Everything is back together, putting the scope back on now and will be running a through through it just to make sure there are no leaks. Winds are gusting to 20 mph now so I won't be able to do any target testing until tonight or tomorrow morning. The bolt is smooth as glass and all remaining coating seems solid. I gave it a thorough scotch brite scrubbing followed by 1200 grit wet/dry. I covered everything on that probe including inside the port and all edges. Super smooth now, time will tell.
The bore turned out well. All lead fouling is gone 8)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Finished%20CrownJPG.jpg)
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Supposedly it is nickel plating that is coming off, caused by the ball the rides on the bolt.
There is a member on BSA forum ( Rancidtom ) that makes a Stainless Steel Probe to replace the stock one. Only problem is they are not available yet.
Keep checking XTX's website as they will be carrying them. I need to get one for my rifle.
Hopefully that is what is causing your problem, as long as the nickel plating does not scratch your barrel which was mentioned could happen.
Hear is a link to the thread. http://bsaog.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56436.0 (http://bsaog.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56436.0)
Thanks! Hopefully this will take care of the problem.........but, if this doesn't work and the probe starts to flake again, I will keep an eye out for the stainless probe ;) The bore looked good, but I wouldn't want to shoot thousands of rounds with the metal flakes blowing into the bore :o Makes me wonder how many folks are dealing with this but aren't aware of the problem.
Steve
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The R10 is all done, everything back together. The wind picked up too much to test outdoors so I ran some shots through the chronograph inside. I left the Huma regulator set for 139 BAR, but backed off on the hammer spring 2 full turns from the factory setting. I was able to stay on the knee of the curve and velocity is now at about 865 fps with JSB 15.89 (26.65 fpe). JSB 18 grain are coming out at 826 fps. Still getting single digit ES and no leaks. Bolt is VERY smooth 8)
While my indoor target is only 13 yards, I still wanted to check things after the bore work. All shots went into a single hole, that's a good sign. No sign of chrome flaking, and after I got done shooting and inspection of the bore showed no fouling, rifling looks great ;D Hoping tomorrow morning will be calm so I can get back outside. I feel really good about the results so far...but you know how that is....outdoors at distance will tell the tale ;)
One tiny hole at 13-yards......that's a good sign
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/13%20yards.jpg)
Bore and rifling look great, no sign of fouling
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Bore%20-%20after%2015%20shots.jpg)
Decided to install the Pinkney Engineering polished aluminum safety button while it was apart. Little longer than the stock button, I like it :D
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Machined%20Safety%20Button.jpg)
Steve
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Looks good, did you use your mag at all? If you did you could also disassemble and clean it out to, I have noticed flakes can get in the mag as well. The safety knob is cool.
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Looks good, did you use your mag at all? If you did you could also disassemble and clean it out to, I have noticed flakes can get in the mag as well. The safety knob is cool.
Thanks :D I didn't use the magazine today, but I did use it last week for chronograph testing. Good idea on stripping it down and cleaning any chrome flakes out. I'm sure there's some in it. I'll do that tomorrow.
Steve
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Well I wasn't able to beat the wind this morning, but I shot some groups anyway. From what I can tell the issue has been resolved at this point. The rifle is shooting MUCH better, and is printing tight groups with ease ;)
Here are a couple back to back groups shot at 50 yards;
My rinky dink little wind flag this morning ;D After seeing the affects on the group, I tried to shoot when it was stretched out like this
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Wind%20flag%202.19.17.jpg)
First 50 yard group was with the JSB 15.89 grain. Wind flag was stretched out from right to left causing the groups to be about 1/2" or so to the left of my vertical aim point. On shot #2, the flag dropped and my POI was right on with vertical aim point. I shot 4 more shots, but made sure the flag was stretched out for each remaining shot, end result was 5 of the 6 shots going into a core group that was sub 1/4" ctc.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/JSB%2015.89%20-%206-shots%20at%2050%20yards.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/JSB%2015.89%20-%206%20shots%20%20.247%20at%2050%20yards.jpg)
Next 50 yard group was shot with the Air Arms 16 Grain. I shot all 5 while the flag was stretched out, all went into the core group just left of my vertical aiming point.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/AA%2016%20grain%20-%205%20shots%20at%2050%20yards.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/AA%2016%20grain%20-%200.25%20at%2050%20yards.jpg)
Forgot to mention yesterday that in addition to the Clover 400 bore lapping, I also lapped the crown with a brass tool from Brownells. Low speed on cordless drill, moving drill in a rotating movement with even pressure about 30-45 seconds, then reversed drill and repeated for another 30-45 seconds. Clover 400 was used for this. The factory crown was recessed, but squared off. No taper. Also touched up the breech end of the barrel.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/IMG_4239.png)
I finished up with a shot string to test out my latest settings. 139 BAR with hammer spring backed off 2 full turns from factory setting. For the first time I was able to see the effects of a light hammer strike after the rifle came off the regulator at shot #42. Shots 1 - 42 resulted in 852 fps average and an Extreme Spread of only 11 fps.
Looking at the velocities, it would seem as if the rifle would be very shootable for almost 60 shots. Not sure at which point POI would begin to change enough making it not shootable? From shot 43 through 56 the ES was still below 20 fps.
At this setting I am at about 94-95% of max velocity at 139 BAR. Might crank it in another half turn, maybe.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/Shot%20String%202.19.17.jpg)
Thanks to everyone for their input on this issue, I really appreciate the help I received ;) Starting out I had no idea what was causing the accuracy problems and the ideas generate here helped me to plug away at things until it was finally resolved ;D
Motorhead - Thanks for your help behind the scenes with the bore lapping process ;)
Keeping my fingers crossed now, hoping that the bolt probe plating will no longer flake off. I am still planning on getting one of the stainless probes when available.
With about 140 shots through the rifle since the tear down yesterday the bore still looks GREAT and bolt is silky smooth!!! At about 70 shots I ran 3 dry patches through the bore, no fouling. Crown still looks great with no build up 8)
Here is a picture of the bore after 140 shots. Not even a hint of fouling :D
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/Nitrocrushr/140%20shots.jpg)
Steve
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Glad this turned out great! Heck I wish I could shoot that good not in wind lol
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Great job on your R-10, those 1/4 " groups look nice. I have flags like that, coat hanger and ribbon. ;D
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Great job! I thoroughly enjoyed this journey and I hope your accuracy issues are resolved.
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Hey Steve,
Excellent Work 8).
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Thanks guys ;D This reminds me of the many journeys I took while learning to tune springers. Most of my learning takes place in the midst of problems, so in a roundabout way this was a good thing 8)
Steve
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Nice shooting! Those are awesome groups in the wind. 1/2 MOA? That is truly remarkable. I will have to pass this thread on to the person that bought my R10.
Now I am interested in trying to lap my crosman barrel - even if it turns out half as good as yours, I will be a happy camper.
Dan
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I'm glad it all worked out for you, Steve. Those are some sweet groups for sure!
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Well done, that's what a good BSA barrel can do and what I expect from my guns. Excellent shooting as well.
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I'm glad it worked out for you. Great job on the tinkering and troubleshooting!
Eric
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Steve, I am elated that this R-10 is now performing so well! Exactly what I always heard BSA's were capable of.
I was still a little shocked that they seemingly forgot to actually put a crown on the barrel. Not just the recess.
The Brass screw, or Brownell tool both do a very good job! ;)
Now---Happy Shooting!!! 8)
Knifemaker