GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Johnno on April 30, 2011, 11:30:54 AM
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Hi all,
Johnno here - first post to this forum - have been looking for a while to find a good international forum for airgun enthusiasts and to hopefully get a few questions answered...
Up to a month ago the only thing I knew about airguns was limited to a 60 year old air rifle (a ''Daisy'' I think it is from memory) that I inherited from my dad - I'm normally into prac pistol and long range target shooting (7.62/308) and service rifle which I usually shoot with my 105 year old Swedish Mauser...
I've since moved from Oz (Australia) to Argentina - to legally buy regular firearms here it will take me quite sime time because I have to get all my paperwork in order - and being someone who goes nuts without my regular range practice and the chance to shoot on a regular basis I looked at the other options - and the one really good thing about Argentina is you can buy any air pistol or air rifle you want without paperwork - so I've got myself a Crosman Benjamin EB22 for indoor practice - and I'm really enjoying using it - but I now have a few friends here I am going to be able to do some small/medium game hunting with so I've bought myself a Hatsan 125 (.22 calibre/5.5mm) and am EXTREMELY impressed with it and reckon I should be able to take down just about anything up to the 50 or 100 kg level in terms of game...
NOW - I've got no range nearby so the best I could do to zero the rifle was approximately 10 metres indoors (inside my apartment) - I've bought a Shilba (Argentine) Red Dot sight (not magnified) and at 10 metres I'm pretty much on/touching the 1cm bull...
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CONTINUED... :)
NOW - I'm using some really nice local 28 grain pellets that are meant to be the best/heaviest hunting pellets you can get here - but I DON'T have any chrony gear or anything else and what I am hoping is that some of you have done some chrony work on the hatsan 125 (.22/5.5mm) and have some ballistic data you can share with me - I won't get the opportunity to get to a range any time soon to zero at 50 metres which is the distance I expect to do most of my hunting at - does anyone on the board have a basic ballistic data chart for the hatsan 125 using 28 gr pellets or at least chrony figures to tell me what sort of muzzle velocity I will be getting using these 28 grain pellets so that I can then try to grab an online ballistics program to work out a BDC for myself ?
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Okay - don't want to be a pain - its taken 3 posts for me to get my story across and you'll be bored to death trying to read all of this but if anyone can help me out it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Johnno in Argentina :)
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Welcome Johnno, sorry I can't help with the info that you are looking for.....but someone will jump in that can.
Just wanted to welcome you to the site, lots of good guys around here and very helpfull............so enjoy.
The library at the top of the page has some great info that might help also..........anyway...welcome aboard!!!
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Same here , can't help, but Welcome to the GTA
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Hello and welcome to GTA!
You might find this helpful. Ask if you have any questions about how it works.
http://www.instructables.com/id/AirsoftAirgun-or-other-projectile-throwing-devic/#step1 (http://www.instructables.com/id/AirsoftAirgun-or-other-projectile-throwing-devic/#step1)
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Welcome to the GTA, the hatsan website says the 125 in .22 cal gets 1000 fps. Based on that being hooey, im going to guess 900? then add in a very heavy pellet, a best guess might be 750 fps.
Also a 2nd note, 50 meters with a heavy pellet on a springer might be too far depending on what your hunting. I would have to guess inside of 30 meters being a safe distance to get a clean and painless kill
Good luck and hopefully someone who knows what they are talking about stops by soon
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Thanks for that guys :) Much appreciated :) I'm sure there will be a few more replies and I'll keep checking, put it all together and hopefully figure out what I'm doing. Yes newguy, I was wondering about 50 metres as well - because of weight of pellet and bullet drop - the shooting situation I am looking at though is kind of unique - where I live right now I have the opportunity to do some roof top vermin control fairly high up - I brought my range finder binoculars with me when I came here though and I know the distance I'd be shooting at is approximately 48 metres - so the trick is to get zeroed somehow when the only reliable zeroing option for me is the 10 metres inside the apartment option and since the vermin will be pidgeons and suchlike they are not very big targets so I am hoping to take some of the guesswork out of this so I know fairly accurately how many clicks I need to wind up the red dot to hit the target...
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Im not sure if its more of a problem of pellet drop or moving off target, or if it will still give a clean painless kill at that distance with that heavy of a pellet. I think it should be fine but others know better than I
Good luck
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Just wanted to welcome you to GTA, it's very nice to have you with us :)
Make sure you post hunting stories and pics in the "Hunting Gate" if you can. We love hunting stories...
Jeff
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Yes newguy - I hear you - I'd like to know the accuracy/zeroing is good enough to ensure a chest shot each time - and I'm going with the heavy 28 gr pellet assuming that will have the most impact on the target each time and using the theory that any lighter pellet will be more affected by the wind sheer between the two buildings - its not extreme but there is some... I've found one fairly reasonable free ballistics program online and started playing with it - maybe I should factor in a lower muzzle velocity along the lines of what you've said, print out a rough BDC and then if I can figure out how many clicks equals 1MOA on this red dot sight (it has no manual with it) I might be able to use the chart to ''dial up'' the correct amount from the 10 metre zero I have and see how I go...
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Try what's in the poor man's chrono link I posted above and then try it at 48 yards, and calculate energy from there.
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Welcome Johnno, I've tested this one a while ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CF4GzceshQ#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CF4GzceshQ#ws)
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You may have a program like this that you referred to:
http://www.airgunexpo.com/calc/calc_opbz.cfm? (http://www.airgunexpo.com/calc/calc_opbz.cfm?)
This will give you the hold under/over from whatever zero point you choose.
Welcome to the GTA.
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Thanks guys - as expected some great info/leads - cast your eyes over this and see if it ''feels right'' for you all (?)
Simple Trajectory Program V2.0
Pellet Name: 28 grain pellet in Hatsan 125
Pellet Weight: 28.00 grns
pellet BC: 0.031
Pellet Diameter: 0.220 in.
Muzzle Velocity: 700 fps
Scope Height 1.890 in.
Click/MOA: 4 clicks/MOA
Zero Range: 10 yards
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() ()
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Name: 28 grain pe Name: 28 grain pe
BC: 0.031 BC: 0.031
Vel: 700 fps Vel: 700 fps
ScpHt: 1.890 in. ScpHt: 1.890 in.
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|10 0:0||55 3:2| |10 0:0||55 3:2|
|11 -10:3||56 4:0| |11 -10:3||56 4:0|
|12 - 9:3||57 4:1| |12 - 9:3||57 4:1|
|13 - 9:0||58 4:3| |13 - 9:0||58 4:3|
|14 - 8:1||59 5:1| |14 - 8:1||59 5:1|
|15 - 7:3||60 5:2| |15 - 7:3||60 5:2|
|16 - 7:2||61 6:0| |16 - 7:2||61 6:0|
|17 - 7:0||62 6:2| |17 - 7:0||62 6:2|
|18 - 7:0||63 6:3| |18 - 7:0||63 6:3|
|19 - 6:3||64 7:1| |19 - 6:3||64 7:1|
|20 - 6:3||65 7:3| |20 - 6:3||65 7:3|
|21 - 6:2||66 8:1| |21 - 6:2||66 8:1|
|22 - 6:2||67 8:2| |22 - 6:2||67 8:2|
|23 - 6:2||68 9:0| |23 - 6:2||68 9:0|
|24 - 6:3||69 9:2| |24 - 6:3||69 9:2|
|25 - 6:3||70 10:0| |25 - 6:3||70 10:0|
|26 - 7:0||71 10:2| |26 - 7:0||71 10:2|
|27 - 7:0||72 11:0| |27 - 7:0||72 11:0|
|28 - 7:1||73 11:2| |28 - 7:1||73 11:2|
|29 - 7:1||74 11:3| |29 - 7:1||74 11:3|
|30 - 7:2||75 + 0:1| |30 - 7:2||75 + 0:1|
|31 - 7:3||76 + 0:3| |31 - 7:3||76 + 0:3|
|32 - 8:0||77 + 1:1| |32 - 8:0||77 + 1:1|
|33 - 8:1||78 + 1:3| |33 - 8:1||78 + 1:3|
|34 - 8:2||79 + 2:1| |34 - 8:2||79 + 2:1|
|35 - 8:3||80 + 2:3| |35 - 8:3||80 + 2:3|
|36 - 9:0||81 + 3:1| |36 - 9:0||81 + 3:1|
|37 - 9:1||82 + 3:3| |37 - 9:1||82 + 3:3|
|38 - 9:2||83 + 4:1| |38 - 9:2||83 + 4:1|
|39 - 9:3||84 + 4:3| |39 - 9:3||84 + 4:3|
|40 -10:1||85 + 5:1| |40 -10:1||85 + 5:1|
|41 -10:2||86 + 5:3| |41 -10:2||86 + 5:3|
|42 -10:3||87 + 6:1| |42 -10:3||87 + 6:1|
|43 -11:0||88 + 6:3| |43 -11:0||88 + 6:3|
|44 -11:2||89 + 7:1| |44 -11:2||89 + 7:1|
|45 -11:3||90 + 8:0| |45 -11:3||90 + 8:0|
|46 0:1||91 + 8:2| |46 0:1||91 + 8:2|
|47 0:2||92 + 9:0| |47 0:2||92 + 9:0|
|48 0:3||93 + 9:2| |48 0:3||93 + 9:2|
|49 1:1||94 +10:0| |49 1:1||94 +10:0|
|50 1:2||95 +10:2| |50 1:2||95 +10:2|
|51 2:0||96 +11:1| |51 2:0||96 +11:1|
|52 2:1||97 +11:3| |52 2:1||97 +11:3|
|53 2:3||98 +12:1| |53 2:3||98 +12:1|
|54 3:0||99 +12:3| |54 3:0||99 +12:3|
|55 3:2||100 +13:2| |55 3:2||100 +13:2|
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() ()
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PS - Don't ask why the program prints the BDC twice as two colums side by side but it does :) I just had another brilliant thought - in the old days in calculating firing solutions with the old 7.62 bolt gun for long range shooting we also had a ''slope doper'' or equivalent and last night when I headed off to sleep after more than the usual number of ''light ales'' I had a thought - the building top where all my targets land is probably on a 40 degree angle (up) from my apartment window I'll be shooting from - I'm wondering if I am now getting a bit ''anal'' or if I should just take my first few shots and see how I go:) lol There's no apartments or windows to worry about within metres of the target area and really the only concern is if I get it ''horribly wrong'' and do take out someone's window or something - but the BDC this program has done looks good to me (I think) - the only thing is I have sort of taken the lazy way out and not chronied for this pellet (or done the improvised chrony job suggested above my Jake - oh and I've also calculated the BC on the basis of the assumed MV of 700fps - so thats the other shortcut I've taken - although my gut feel is thats probably pretty close to spot on... What do we all think ? Its a bit wet today but hopefully I'll spot a few targets of opportunity and be ready to give it a go... :)
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PPS In the chart the first figure is the distance in yards and the second is the number of clicks - this red dot of mine did not come with instructions but I am assuming that each click is a quarter MOA (?) (I've used red dots in pistol shooting in the past but specific range target practice and interestingly enough with the Browning Buckmark .22 pistol I used the red dot sight on the competition was at 4 set ranges - 10, 15, 20, 25 (metres) - strangely enough I never needed to adjust the red dot as I hit the button to send the target out further each time - the red dot worked for each distance without holding under/over - I'm assuming I need to do all this because of the lower velocity of the air rifle pellet when compared with .22 LR (?) Okay - maybe I should have given myself a chance to wake up first and drunk a lot more coffee before I posted this - someone let me know if I am making sense or not ;) lol
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PPPS The red dot is a ''Shilba RG Duo Tac'' made here in Argentina...
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Welcome to the Forum Johnno. I'm no expert but I'm wondering if that weight of a pellet wouldn't be a bit much for that Springer. Seems like it would put quite a workout on that spring and a 28 grain pellet would be more suited for a .25 cal.
Maybe one of the guys with more hands on experience with that will give some better advice. I'm just always a bit leary of using too heavy or too light of a pellet and causing damage. Just my 2cents worth. ;) Good luck and enjoy!
Geno 8)
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Johnno ditto Gene's comment. Methinks 28 grain is way too much for your springer. 14-19 gr is more reasonable. I shoot 28gr but only from my Career 707. If you have access to springs then no prob and you can consider them consumables but you definitely will fatigue and break that spring faster than with a lighter pellet.
Welcome to the GTA. The greatest bunch of airgunners by far!
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PS is the Hatsan 128 the same as the Walther Falcon Hunter? How's the trigger on it? Always wanted to try the Walter line
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Thanks for that Skonion and Larsporn :) As you can tell I am a bit of a rookie when it comes to air guns so the idea that the pellet might be too heavy and cause damage really didn't occur to me - I'm guessing I might need to find something a bit lighter then and start of with the zero process again and then a new bdc... Okay - in case any of you guys are really familiar with the Hatsan 125 (.22/5.5mm) any recommendations for a really good hunting pellet with hitting power/accuracy in the 15-20gr range maybe ? :)
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Larspawn - just saw your post then :) I'm no expert and as I said at the beginning of the thread the only other air rifle I have owned is one I inherited from my dad that is probably about 60 years old :) lol Having said that I have done a fair bit of online research and then I started looking at was available in the armerias (gunshops) down here in Buenos Aires - and the Hatsan 125 really DID sound like the best bang for my buck :) For me the trigger is a tad on the stiff side but it is adjustable - but since I feel I can shoot with it accurately I'm not too worried - it takes a fair bit of effort to cock it - I definitely wouldn't recommend this air rifle for a 12 year old or something - but yes, I'm EXTREMELY impressed with its power and although the only accuracy testing I have been able to do so far has been at 10 metres I was able to group 3 or 4 rounds in about 1cm...
The REALLY cool thing about this air rifle is that you can shoot into a telephone book at about 10 metres and the penetration is amazing and the way the bullet deforms/expands is like you would expect from a real .22lr rifle - the bullet penetrates an inch or so and creates the equivalent of pretty impressive ''wound channel'' and deforms in a way that it ends up with some fairly nasty edges/etc. so yes, this is one impressive piece of kit...
I had no idea that air rifles had come so far from the first one I played with as a kid 30 to 40 years ago - these aren't ''kids toys'' anymore - for me this weapon is more like a real .22lr rifle - the only difference is its even CHEAPER to shoot and more quiet :) lol
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Johno I would suggest that you look for lighter pellets (that are accurate) for your rifle. While your Hatsan model 125 is quite powerful (IIRC it is the same as the Walther Falcon Hunter sold here in the US), those extra heavy 28 grain pellets will put extra stress on the mainspring. Pellets of that weight are better suited in pre-charged pneumatics. If you damaged the main spring, I don't know how hard it would be to get a replacement in Argentina. If you're primary target are birds the size of pigeons, 14 to 18 grain pellets from your Hatsan will more than do the job. Plus they will have a flatter trajectory.
Nathan
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Welcome!!
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Thanks for that Nathan - mostly pidgeons for the moment - but whenever I can take a break and get out of the city I would like to have a go at rabbits, carpincios (not sure on the spelling) and small to medium sized pigs - from what I've seen there is no problem with an air rifle like this taking down a medium size porker with good shot placement (which is why I have now added the red dot sight). I'm experimenting with some of the pellets that are easy to get down here - most are around 14.35 grains from memory - some with pointed heads and some with more rounded - but my gut feeling is still that if I was going for heavier game I would want the heaviest pellet I could get my hand on - but having said that maybe for all the small stuff I could stick to something around 14.35 grain and keep the 28 grainers for the few times I get to shoot something bigger ? :)
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Glad you found us and joined up. Thanks for sharing your story and keep us posted on how things go. ;D
-Mark
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Thanks Calmark;) Will do...
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Welcome to GTA!
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Okay guys - I finally spent about 70 pesos (maybe 12 bucks lol:) and got myself one of those detachable bipods so I could do my zero at 10 metres routine a bit better - since my first zero was with the heavy 28 grain pellets I thought I would stick with them for the moment - well, for another 10 or 20 shots or so anyway...
Here is the mean woman of it - I used about 10 shots tonight ATTEMPTING to get a perfect zero - using the red dot sight and in the prone position using the bipod - after rough tuning I found I was getting all the pellets around the edge of the 1cm or so (maybe half an inch) bull in the centre of the target - but quickly realized NO WAY I was going to get every pellet into the same hole (something I could easily do at closer range with my crossman benjamin EB22...) IS it just the pellets or is it that this Hatsan 125 is ''too powerful to be accurate'' or is anyone else out there getting ''tack driver'' type accuracy with a particular type of pellet? I know I am being a bit lazy and I could always experiment at this 10 metre range indoors with the other different pellets I have - the lighter 14.3gr ones and so on - but coming from the background I do with really only having experience with precision long range ''sniper''/target type rifles etc are my expectations okay or is that simply NOT the sort of accuracy I should be expecting? I am guessing that if my bullets are grouping in a half inch group at 10 metres/yards then at 50 metres/yards I will probably find the group will spread out to 2.5 inches (?) - and if that is the case my idea of getting chest shots on pidgeons at 50 yards/metres simply isn't going to work?
Oh - you'll notice I'm trying to do the metres/yards thing as being the same - thats because what we were taught (years ago) was that they are basically the same when calculating firing solutions in the 300 to 1000 metres range with long range rifles...
Okay - sorry to be a pain again and come in with a dozen more questions - I am STILL *very* impressed with this new rifle - because I never thought an air rifle could produce this sort of power - but on the accuracy side of things I admit I am a tad disappointed right now - but bearing in mind that these are locally produced out of the ordinary HEAVY pellets - I doubt there is much heavier in the .22 calibre pellet category than 28 gr (?)
Anyway - any and all input gratefully accepted :) MAYBE its the clip onto the barrel bipod (?) From regular rifle experience I *do* remember that benchresting ALWAYS produced tighter groups/more accuracy than using any bipod (have I maybe answered my own question there?)
Johnno out :)
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PS I do have sort of an excuse for trying to pick all of your brains rather than experiment TOOOOO much - I am zeroing/testing at a 10 metre indoor range that is actually the living room of my apartment here in Buenos Aires - up on the 7th floor of a reasonably tall apartment building - its a new country and everybody is pretty laid back - I know I've been shooting my BB pistols indoors and my .22 Benjamin Crossman co2 pistol basically every day - and I've gotten away with THAT without the neighbours complaining - but the noise from the Hatsan 125 *is* just a tad louder than the benjamin crossman and while I don't mind getting 5 to 10 shots off in the evening - before it gets toooooo late - I don't know I would get away with putting hundreds of rounds through it every evening - and I don't want to push it too much ;)
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Okay guys - time for my first update ;) lol I've done some online research and found one guy who really seemed to have done a fair bit of the work for me - according to him the best pellet for the Hatsan 125 is the Gamo pro magnum (15.4gr) (in terms of accuracy) - apparently it gives fingernail size groups at about 25 metres - so assuming that is what the Hatsan 125 is capable of doing that is what I am aiming for...
I headed off to the armeria here in Buenos Aires again today and came back with a few more pellet types to play with - I've dropped down from the 28 grainers and today I was on the Gamo TS-22 22 grainers - I started to get REALLY excited when with first couple of POIs/holes were touching each other - but after several more shots and adjustments it turns out that the 22 grainers are no more accurate than the 28 grainers - the only advantage the additional muzzle velocity you can feel is there with the lighter pellet...
STILL no nosy neighbours making trouble - but I don't want to overdo it - so no more shooting tonight - tomorrow I'll be testing either the Savage Magnums (weight unknown) or moving down to the Jumbo express exact which weigh in at 14.35 grains - these are also a domed pellet...
My gut feeling at the moment? I think these Gamo Magnum Pro pellets will probably turn out to be the best like this other chap has said - if there are I'll let you guys all know - use the free ballistics software to make up a new bullet data chart for 10 to 100 yards (after zeroing at 10 again) and if all goes well I should be able to ''dial up'' fairly precisely for 50 and do my first bit of pidgeon killing :)
I've seen a few other comments on a local Spanish language airgunners forum saying good things about the Gamo Magnum Pro pellets in the Hatsan 125 and from what I can make out whilst this is one of the most powerful springers out there it seems that it is very ''pellet fussy'' - it likes what it likes - but at least it looks like it IS possible to get really good accuracy out of this rifle as well as the hardcore power... :)