GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: oneshot61 on December 31, 2016, 05:13:37 PM
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I read about doing this somewhere on a forum, just cant remember where. I tried it today, and it definitely tightened my group. For me, if I can shoot an inch at 100 yards with an air rifle, I'm a happy man. I shot several groups today and when I got back home, for the life of me I cannot find the target in my truck. So mandatory pictures will have to wait till next weekend. But here is what it looks like after rolling between two medium files.
Edit: Moderators, meant to post this in pcp gate. Please move?
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Interesting way to do the knurling.... It was BillG here on the GTA that knurls his swaged slugs....
Bob
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Yes sir, you are correct. I just did a search here and its one of the post I read. It works.
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John Cripe (Johninthecamper) knurled some .22s for me. They weren't BBTs, but the knurling had the same effect.
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Good to know. I've not shot any of his, (Johns) but know him by reputation. Lot of great minds here doing a lot of great things for the air gun world. I'm just getting to reap the benefits of their knowledge. Love the bbt's and the knurling seems to take out some of the variations that cause fliers at longer ranges. Chasing that perfect bullet, barrel, pressure setup. ;D
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What effect does it have, easier grooving, less friction, etc? Interesting, had not seen that.
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Someone with more experience can chime in but for me it equalizes any imperfections in the casting and I'm seeing more consistent groups. Seems to stand up micro pieces of the bullet to fill the groves more evenly. ( that's my newby explanation) ;)
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They will chamber easier.... That may be most of the key, allowing the bullet to "self-align" with the rifling due to a lower force required.... My concern would be with the method used (rubbed between two files) not producing a uniform "knurl".... If that happens, the bullet could chamber off-center....
Bob
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My concern would be with the method used (rubbed between two files) not producing a uniform "knurl".... If that happens, the bullet could chamber off-center....
Bob
DUH-YA THINK?? Rubbing/rolling free hand between 2 files ISN'T going to produce a more concentric bullet than one out of a premium cut mold......If it helps accuracy, they aren't size correctly to start with, or something else was not at it's best..........
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Maybe so. I tried .251,.252,.253,.254. After cleaning the barrel, 1,2,3 shot good with .251 shooting the best. But I kept getting out lying shots. After doing this today, I got 3 groups of 6 at 1 inch @ 100 yards. ( measured with a tape) I have a six shot revolver mag. Then refill after 6 shots. Not sure why it's working, but it is at this point. I'll get a shooting vice to remove my shaky hand input and a more true test of the bullet itself. I'm resting on my range bag at the moment. If it reduces my group size to do this, might be worth it.
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I have a creedo that says "never argue with success".... I was merely pointing out a possible source of inconsistency with this method of knurling.... However, if it works for you, and you can repeat the process from day to day and month to month.... then more power to you.... ANYTHING that allows you to increase accuracy and repeatability is worth doing, regardless of what the theory says....
Bob
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In one of my post I mentioned making a jig for repeat-ability with the file method, simple U shape...but it was one of the things I was going to try if necessary to get the BBT 40g thru the choke. Take a look at a chamberd round knurled and not knurled any finning on the back of the drive band..? If so the knurling can reduce it depending on how knurled it is... heaivly knurled and it gives the lead some where to get displaced to other than the back of the band...
you can also build something like the Korbin knurler... http://www.bulletswage.com/hct-2.htm (http://www.bulletswage.com/hct-2.htm)
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What Barrel? speed? or speeds?
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I agree it's probably not the most consistent manner and actually was looking tonight at the Corbin unit. I believe the barrel is 1-18 twist and shooting a high of 955 with an average of 905? Over 20 shots.
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Those are great results despite the "HAND" method while knurling.
What happened to Bill G with the whole KNURLING thing anyways? I was anxiously awaiting those after he announced them....... :(
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I have been interested in the knurled bullet too.
Doesn't knurling increase the diameter of the bullet. I know when turn parts on the lathe and then knurl, the part always increases in diameter slightly. Do you think it would be advisable to re-size after the bullet is knurled or does that defeat the idea?
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I have been interested in the knurled bullet too.
Doesn't knurling increase the diameter of the bullet. I know when turn parts on the lathe and then knurl, the part always increases in diameter slightly. Do you think it would be advisable to re-size after the bullet is knurled or does that defeat the idea?
Sizing after knurling would defeat the idea:
NON AIRGUN RELATED-"knurling" bullets is simply to keep lube on the bullet. The old 38 special 158 gr Keith SWC's from SPEER were always knurled and they were awesome target rounds.
AIRGUN RELATED-"knurling" is new grounds no one has ever covered. So we don't really need lubed bullets. We will see what advantages Knurling offers for us.
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Bill G was starting with a swaged bullet between the land and groove diameter, and knurling it to make it seal while being easy to chamber.... He could then swage at a single, common size, and knurl to make the OD whatever he needed for the barrel.... His knurling tool was adjustable for finished diameter (with a stop), and the consistency was incredible....
I think he was simply overlooked at the time as a gimmick, which is a pity if that was the case.... I think he's still around, I PM'd him.... It was his hope, and intention, to sell swaged, knurled bullets in all the common calibers.... I know because I worked with him on the basic designs quite a bit....
Bob
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I feel each barrel needs evaluated )If you are sending realy heavy stuff with shallow rifling and the fps is getting up there... it may promote stripping and of course that will show up as leading...
I think the op is using an ace precision apex 330 .25 caliber and all I know is the barrel is part of the upper double air res... are the choke for pellets what sort of rifling
what I do not know is what type of leade it has... the leade on Cabbie (stock Syrod from Cabela's) is causing fliers with the BBT 40g... where as Norm for some reason is getting less fliers (stock power plant wood stocked Syrod from Norm)... from how they seat I am pretty sure the leades are hard edged like disco barrels
knurled also might tend to lead up a choke... maybe not... If so then lube might help...
I do think my 1322 that is sending 30g BBT out at about 550 fps thru a 22" disco barrel can/may benefit from reduced friction maybe... It was Loonie accurate at 40 yards first outing with the 220/222 that dropped way small but fit the disco barrel well... quick pine tree rested about 2 moa (a Loonie is just about 1" diam) at 40-50 yards first quick and dirty testing... I certainly will do the experiment... the development process is half the fun... especially when you get things working well.. ;) I do think I will get close to moa at 50 yards(@550 fps :o)with more work
but yep I can see probs and benafits from knurled BBT and some other rounds...
But the BBTs are charmed an elf told me they are the work of Santa's cousin... By the way when I asked him about designing the lights I did not know about the family connection... guess I am going to have to work on staying a good boy... the charm might go the other way for those that shout, cry and pout.. ;)
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Bill G was starting with a swaged bullet between the land and groove diameter, and knurling it to make it seal while being easy to chamber.... He could then swage at a single, common size, and knurl to make the OD whatever he needed for the barrel.... His knurling tool was adjustable for finished diameter (with a stop), and the consistency was incredible....
I think he was simply overlooked at the time as a gimmick, which is a pity if that was the case.... I think he's still around, I PM'd him.... It was his hope, and intention, to sell swaged, knurled bullets in all the common calibers.... I know because I worked with him on the basic designs quite a bit....
Bob
Good on ya Bob. Tell him that I said i want him moving fast forward on this. I always thought BG had great ideas and they are ideas that need pursuit. He knows that he has me as a loyal and dedicated tester for him and I will always give him my honest opinion. I want him back..............
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Sounds to me like Mr. Bill is on to something. Forgive my lack of knowledge, but it seems a lot of variables at play for home casters with lead temp, mold temp, mold quality, lead/tin percentages. Swaging with knurling and lubing the bullet seems like it would overcome a lot of those variables. This might be another step forward in our industry. I would love a swaged bullet for my .25 but can't bring myself to place a custom size order not knowing if they are going to shoot at all. Samples would be nice in a new product.
I'm not sure of the leade in my barrel, I can't see or get to it. Not sure if they are choked as I can't push a pellet through the breech. I do know both the .25 and .35 will shoot both pellets and bullets accurately.
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Last adventure I read BillG was working on was the partitioned .25 cal slug . That was a while back . Hope he chimes in with some of his latest developments .
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I'm ordering a hyskore shooting rest that hopefully will be in by next weekend, since I don't have a rest at all. I may not get home for 2 weeks but ill try. Ill shoot 2 groups, weighed and sorted and a group weighed and sorted that has been knurled and post the difference. The shooting rest should remove a lot of my human error. Ill do the same with my 357 ace as I also have some bbt hp. Both will be done at 100 yards.
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Knurling on bullets has been around for decades. Hornady also sold, and very well may still offer such bullets in .38 for reloaders.
In PB's is serves to hold lube. for us, it has a very different use.
For the original poster, Congrats!!! I will state that you listed several sizes of bullets. Yet still miss the most important aspect of sizing for AG's.
The bore should be slugged and bullets sized accordingly. You tested bullets in one hundredths in size. However, for top accuracy, you should be testing in Thousandths, not hundreds.
You have happily and accidently skirted around a common mistake of sizing to hundredths by knurling. You see, while knurling does slightly increase dia. it also slightly decreases it as well.
How you ask, well, simply put, it gives the bullet both peaks and valleys on the surface. The peaks are very thin and delicate, while the valley is firm. What this does, is artificially allow the bullet to act as if it is perfectly sized. As anywhere between the peak and the valley can be the size of the bullet as The rifling will find it's proper depth, very easily in a knurled bullet. So it is a very "Happy Stance" of a Great Winn-Winn! 8)
You have without even thinking about it, produced bullets that are capable of being several different sizes at once, that the barrel makes the decisions. With the added benefit of lesser friction, and in case such as my bullets, (Made for my use only) carry a bit of lube for the big bore.
You see, lube normally goes in the lube grooves, and requires both heat and high rotational forces to work in a PB. However, in our AG's, the heat is missing. Hence, much of the lube is never used in the shot cycle. To our chagrin. However, Knurling, such as you are using, will easily hold, and distribute the lube in an AG barrel very well. ;)
Sounds like you have found yourself a real winn-winn here Sir! You have found the proper bullet diameter, without ever making the effort to do it properly, yet found great success in you application. Kinda a Blind hog finds acorn kind of thing. Which can be a very happy and rewarding kind of thing, in a fun way!
Don't' ya just love it when a plan comes together!!!
Congrats!!!
Knife
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Thanks Michael, that was well explained. I would love to slug my barrel, both the .25 and the 357. However, the way the breech is made and the fact that both barrels are sealed in their upper tubes, means I would have to slug from the barrel end. Not sure that's accurate? Especially if they are choked at all. So I'm having to improvise in the bullet department on both guns. But, yes.. I'm a happy man, both with the bbt and the improvised knurling. So if you see a blind happy hog in the alabama woods toting an ace .25, don't shoot.. its me 8) ;D
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I sure wish BillG would chime in here , to share some of his findings . I'll be trying the backwoods knurling method ASAP.
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Hey guys I'm not back solid yet be will work toward being a regular part.of the forum in the near future. New position that required a lot of travel and now requires lots of overtime. Things should be settling soon and I'll be back to making slugs and offering up some of the newer stuff I had in the works before life happened. First off, thanks so much for the kind words and patience. Before I did erred my attention to this rude interruption called work ;D, I had been shooting those new partitioned nose slugs through my Marauder. I'm gonna say no go on the choked barrel for these. Nothing group with this gun. It could be the choked barrel or the fact that I changed the valve to an older WAR valve that Jim Gaska set me up with. Jim and I live in the same small town about 20min apart. I need to pay him a visit to see how things are going. He's so busy that I hate intruding. Anyway, I never really tuned that valve to be as efficient as I should have. Those last couple of months were hectic to say the least. Honestly, I think that I need to procure a TJ barrel before I spend any more time testing. The choked barrel and these slugs just don't agree with each other. The partitioned nose slug is nasty in soaked news paper rolled into 3" x 5" logs. Imo, those test weren't real.since the range was only ~15yrds. But... it was cool to see the effect.
Some technical finding that will likely help those of you who want to try this for your self. First off, I'm a tool maker by trade and can make neat devices but they aren't necessary for small scale trials. The file method is exactly how I did the first one. It is difficult to track the file and get the consistency that was displayed by the original poster. You did a great job. A pointer to those of you who will try this. To get best consistency, only allow the file to travel the distance of the circumstances of the slug. The band's should be ~1\16 wide and be at the tail and at the tangent of the body and nose slightly behind actually. For.those of you who can make a dedicated knurling device, you'll want to know your lan diameter for sure. I found that I could control the depth of knurled fairly accurately but would max out in pure lead at .011ish on average. At first I would creep up the size to match the bore diameter but quickly discovered, that with the .25cal, it was best to just go the whole .011". I'll try to explain why. Typically the land diameter for a .25 is .243. Since we want some engagement, I swaged them .001over (.244). The knurled diameter would be +.011 (.255). This averages .2495. To me, what this means is that the break away friction is far less than with a typical cast or swaged slug. To quantify this, it only required 15 to 17 lbs of force to break away and like 3lbs of dynamic force. Very close to a well fitting pellet. As you all have noticed, this also has the added benefit of "filling the bore". This aids in true centering. Of course as always a proper chamber is most beneficial. In short you can cast a bullet that measures slightly smaller for your bore but will effectively size it self with minimal effort, lower break away and very good seal. I forgot to mention sealing. The knurled, as you all understand, is as deep as it is tall. As it conforms to your chamber and bore the peaks lay over creating sort of labyrinth seal if you will. The chambering effort is maybe more than a good fitting pellet. That kind of sums it up. I couldn't be more excited for you guys who are having success with this process. Great job. An idea that came to me after seeing Bob's bore riding BT design was to have a bore rider that was engaged by say .0015 to .002 with the lans. Now picture this. Where the rebate is, there is an undercut. This creates a skirt that is say .02 thick and .03 deep. From a profile it would appear as a BBT. Once pressure is introduced, obtration occurs at the skirt thus fully engaging and sealing the bore. Knurling is time consuming which equates to expensive 2nd operation. And so goes the pursuit of the evolution of the airgun slug.
I'll be seeing you here soon I hope.
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Nice to see you back, Bill.... hope you have the time to become a regular again....
Bob
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Mee too.
Hey does anyone hate the auto correct on these phone as badly as I do. I just read.over my post. ??? Just for the record....I'm not slow, I'm just a slow learner. Lol.
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With a quick phone, apparently.... *LOL*....
Bob
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Technology that only my children understand.. lol
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Thank you Mr. Bill for your post. I really appreciate the tips and information, and I think we are all looking forward to you being able to continue your endeavors with the swaged, knurled slugs. As my luck would have it, Mr Bobs boat tails lent themselves almost a perfect 1/16-3/32 knurl just by their design. It knurled the rear band and the rear of the nose as can be seen in the picture. I only did one direction on the file and is not cross hatched by flipping the files on a second pass. Although I may try that also just to see what I get, as well as excluding the nose portion. It is more work but to me if the end result is a more accurate bullet, I'm ok with that. I can do about 30 per minute. I hope others will jump in and give it a go and let's see what we get.
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Thanks Michael, that was well explained. I would love to slug my barrel, both the .25 and the 357. However, the way the breech is made and the fact that both barrels are sealed in their upper tubes, means I would have to slug from the barrel end. Not sure that's accurate? Especially if they are choked at all. So I'm having to improvise in the bullet department on both guns. But, yes.. I'm a happy man, both with the bbt and the improvised knurling. So if you see a blind happy hog in the alabama woods toting an ace .25, don't shoot.. its me 8) ;D
Texas has been my home for the last 40 years, but OH how I miss the Alabama Woods! I grew up in the farm and deep woods part of the north east of Ala. on the Mountain above FT. Payne. Beautiful!!!
Man, I miss it! (And the deer have a much better flavor there, as they have a LOT of good food available to them. Here, Not so much.
Knife
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so good to see you here Bill!
I have a few checkering files, that i have a strong feeling will do an excellent job! They have very sharp points, rather than the typical lines a normal file has. So one pass will do away with a need to do the norman opposing angle pass. (I Think) LOL!!! ;D
Knife
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I run to Texas a lot, mostly Laredo, San Antonio to drop freight. Alabama is very beautiful, and a hunters paradise. The dear are regular patrons of the soybean and cornfields here, and it shows on them.
Let us know how those files work. They may be better than the ones I'm using at the moment.
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Thanks Michael, that was well explained. I would love to slug my barrel, both the .25 and the 357. However, the way the breech is made and the fact that both barrels are sealed in their upper tubes, means I would have to slug from the barrel end. Not sure that's accurate? Especially if they are choked at all. So I'm having to improvise in the bullet department on both guns. But, yes.. I'm a happy man, both with the bbt and the improvised knurling. So if you see a blind happy hog in the alabama woods toting an ace .25, don't shoot.. its me 8) ;D
next best to slugging... just chamber a round take out the mag use an allen wrench to seat it as deep as you can and then push it back out the breech... then do a push thru from the muzzle to the breech(added benefit you will feel tight or rough spots) and then you will KNOW if it is choked or not...
as far as sizing you do not even need to measure... I am using the NOE system with 10$ changeable bushings... I picked up a .252 just to/in case I need to size in steps... I also picked up 2 .250 bushings both where just slightly under .25... an extra in case I go to far when opening it up for the barrel...but it looks like the Xl 725 barrels are on the heavy side of .250 so it may work for them.. I am guessing I need to open it to about .2506 or so...
so when I first sized to .250 I chambered a round and pushed it back out like described above...it had almost no rifling marks on the nose I mean even less than the round on the right in the below pic to be ( to be turned for Mrod)... so I took wet dry on a dowel and opened it up just a touch so that it ended up like the next pic...I feel it may be just a touch to loose so I may just open it up a touch more...
I am sending them thru a stock .25 Green mountain barrel with its choke which on mine is only down to about .2485-2495 not .243...point is I want the nose to bore ride as much as possible but be stable in the barrel ...
right now they are 2 moa at 50 yards ( at 750-760 fps in one Mrod and 690-700 fps in the other) but that is pine tree standing side rested and with the stock leade which works for pellets but I bet is hard edged because of how they feel when rounds are being chambered and the small bit of finning (on drive band)when sized just about right(2nd pic again)... I am pretty sure of moa and maybe sub moa when all is sorted...
so yep testing knurled against rounds that are sized just right for each barrel is on my list of thing to try with the choked barrel... and non choked barrels...
It also looks in the first pic that the XL 725 barrels need me to try casting at a lower temp and mold temp...or maybe use some antimony in the alloy so they drop a touch larger for the XL 725 barrels... they where bought a couple years apart and I think the earlier barrel is just a touch tighter than the new one...
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Thanks for the tip Mr. Kirby on the breech and choke, and thanks for posting those pictures. It gives me a better understanding of what is going on in the barrel. Ill give that a go tonight as I just pulled in off the road. Ill see what I come up with and post some pictures tomorrow. Its going to rain me out tomorrow so no shooting, but if I don't get called out then definitely Saturday. My new shooting rest will not be in till Wednesday and I will be long gone before then. So ill do my best without it, but continue to shoot when I can use the rest and maybe get a better feel for what this is all doing to accuracy.
I hope to see more people trying this and posting their findings, either here or somewhere on the gta. The more the merrier I say. Especially in different calibers.
That being said, I'm looking forward to Mr. Bill being able to start his swaging and knurling. I'm definitely in. I usually build up stock and then buy to shoot, so that in a pinch I've got a cache. I definitely don't want to roll 3-5k bullets :o
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My pleasure Dan, Kirby is my first name.. ;)
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My pleasure Dan, Kirby is my first name.. ;)
Yes sir, I understand. Its an old southern, old south habit. Calling people mr. or mrs. and their first name, if we didn't know their last name. Its common here and definitely a respect thing. I'd get the stink eye as a kid if I forgot. It stuck. :D
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My pleasure Dan, Kirby is my first name.. ;)
Yes sir, I understand. Its an old southern, old south habit. Calling people mr. or mrs. and their first name, if we didn't know their last name. Its common here and definitely a respect thing. I'd get the stink eye as a kid if I forgot. It stuck. :D
Mr Kirby just learned one of our southern habits, Mr Daniel. As a child we would have gotten a smack on the bottom as well. LOL
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so good to see you here Bill!
I have a few checkering files, that i have a strong feeling will do an excellent job! They have very sharp points, rather than the typical lines a normal file has. So one pass will do away with a need to do the norman opposing angle pass. (I Think) LOL!!! ;D
Knife
I have a checkering file as well. Do you think it's more effective, than a regular flat file?
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Daniel, what gun are you shooting these out of? Do you know if it is a choked barrel or not?
thanks,
Ken
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Actually, that is an interesting point.... If you start with a bullet that is the same diameter as the lands at the muzzle, and then knurl it, there is no reason that the choke should present a problem.... In fact, you could probably go a bit larger, starting with a bullet that is the same diameter as the lands at the breech, or even 0.001" larger as Bill suggests, since the knurling will reduce the diameter at the bottom of the marks even smaller.... Just a thought....
Bob
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Actually, that is an interesting point.... If you start with a bullet that is the same diameter as the lands at the muzzle, and then knurl it, there is no reason that the choke should present a problem.... In fact, you could probably go a bit larger, starting with a bullet that is the same diameter as the lands at the breech, or even 0.001" larger as Bill suggests, since the knurling will reduce the diameter at the bottom of the marks even smaller.... Just a thought....
Bob
Thanks Bob,
When I catch up on a few projects I need to slug the barrel on my BT65 .25 cal, and new RS II .30cal.
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So I got a chance to push a slug into the breech. Actually had to stack two bullets to push in deep enough, because an allen wrench would not fit in the area of the magazine. These are .251. I could not however push one into the end of the barrel. Apparently, it is choked. Which surprises me that they shoot so well. But may be why they shoot the best out of the ones I tried, being the smallest, and better after I knurled them. As Mr. Bob has pointed out, they are the closest to the bore size apparently. Who knows, maybe a .250 knurled would be just the ticket.
Mr. Ken, its an ace precision apex 330, and apparently the barrel is choked... much to my surprise. As best as I can tell, pulling a tight cleaning patch and marking the rod, its a 1-18 twist.
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Those look about perfect, IMO....
Bob
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My pleasure Dan, Kirby is my first name.. ;)
Yes sir, I understand. Its an old southern, old south habit. Calling people mr. or mrs. and their first name, if we didn't know their last name. Its common here and definitely a respect thing. I'd get the stink eye as a kid if I forgot. It stuck. :D
Mr Kirby just learned one of our southern habits, Mr Daniel. As a child we would have gotten a smack on the bottom as well. LOL
Looked on google earth and the Dairy Queen that Grandma bought me ice cream cones for 5 cents when I was about 8 or so is still there in Kirbyville... same southern baptist Grandma made me and my brother cut our own switches and then wore us out with them for swimming in the creek...Guess she was more fraid of moccasins than we were... she and grandpa are at rest in Nacogdoches as are 2 of my great grandparents... I guess in the early 70's she was a rebel because in her house it was Mr/Mrs. and last name... seeing that everybody knew each other I did not hear it used the other way...I was taught if I did not know the person it was Mam or Sir...wait Miss Fanny Mae did call grandma Miss Edith...that may be a ghost memory..? to many concussions I think...Don't get me wrong I am not offended...
Check reply # 35 in this thread and you will see my mom and my brother I am in the pic just barley started... that would be in Etoile.. ;)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104386.20 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104386.20)
was in Nevada part of the time also... But last time I was back home was fresh out of basic when I was 17. Boy do I miss running a line and chasing lunkers at Toledo bend...
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just noticed bro is not showing up he is in the area that came out to dark...
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Those are good memories Mr. Kirby.....except having to cut your own switch.... ouch! I remember those days. I didn't get but a few.. that's all it took :D. Kirbyville and Nacogdoches are right out in the middle of the country there. Nice place to grow up for sure. I looked up both towns.
Thank you Mr. Bob, I was on the fence wondering if I should go down in size at all, but I think ill stay where I am at and see how they do tomorrow. Just looked out the window and its raining here, so no shooting here today. Ill knurl some bullets today for the .25 and the .357 and post as soon as I can get some on target. I will weigh and sort both the knurled and as cast to get as equal of a reference as I can in the difference it makes. 100 yards should tell the story, as Mr. Nielsen says.
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So look what just showed up at my door!! ;D My shooting rest!! 5 days early!!
Also have the .25 ready in different configurations. 50 and 51 grain, some with both the nose and rear band knurled, some with only the rear band knurled as suggested by Mr. Bill. And as dropped from the mold in both weights. Should be a fun day if I don't get called out on the road. I'm stoked!! ;D
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oops meant reply #39
I can not help it I move that 1" groups with any BBT be called Loonie accuracy...
for me it is with a MK1322 at 40 yards (2+moa)at about 550 fps, and one of my Mrods... at 700 fps and 50 yards (2moa)
standing pine tree side rest... at 100 yards Loonie = Moa..
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the above is about what I expected as far as which round would do best...from looking at pushed thru rounds.. this is to zero the .22 then nailing Square Bob sponge pants ;)...
Loonie accurate.. ;)
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Bottom pic post #50 the high .25 flier was part me and part the round not chambering strait... was harder to chamber ... The Mrod that is tuned for 750 fps is about 1.5" at 50 fliers and harder to chamber so I think it is catching more drive band...and maybe not feeding strait...
it has been near zero with a high of 15* or so .... I am waiting for better weather for more testing... the above is the first outing/testing maybe will get a table and sandbag but am being relaxed about first outing with known probs and lower fpe...
When I was younger I started dreaming of my bucket list hunt... I know the Rubies in Nev. like the back of my hand... and these birds got me Dreaming of a 50+ fpe air rifle in the early 1980's...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMHvsQ00pjQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMHvsQ00pjQ)
https://www.google.com/search?q=himalayan+snowcock+ruby+mountains&rlz=1C1GNAM_enUS688US688&oq=hymalayan+snowcock&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l5.16610j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=himalayan+snowcock+ruby+mountains&rlz=1C1GNAM_enUS688US688&oq=hymalayan+snowcock&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l5.16610j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
The pick below is about what the trajectory is out of the little 20+ fpe pumper.... these really needs a .22 pcp... ;)
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Kirby, where did you get these 30g, .22 BBTs? I'm looking for some to shoot in my .22 RS-I that's jacked up to 50fpe. I had hoped that the 30g Piledrivers would be available by now, but alas, H&N discontinued them
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I agree with Bob they look about just right...
you might be able to run the non knurled just a touch looser but honestly I do not know if I would try...I think knurling will be better...
Your bore groove ratio looks to be about 70-75 groove / 25-30 bore with 6 grooves. so it will not swage out to the grooves as much as the Mrod and L.W. barrels with their 10 groove/bores and prob about 80/20 groove/bore...So I can run a bit looser... Maybe...
the .22 well The rifling is not very deep with the Disco non choked barrel... push thrus are in this thread post 19.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=118462.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=118462.0)
If you want a rough idea of how much your barrel is choked start the nose in the muzzle and give it a tap to mark it...
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http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=374&osCsid=3n9et37bbvjblui342tr8vjuq4 (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=374&osCsid=3n9et37bbvjblui342tr8vjuq4)
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so good to see you here Bill!
I have a few checkering files, that i have a strong feeling will do an excellent job! They have very sharp points, rather than the typical lines a normal file has. So one pass will do away with a need to do the norman opposing angle pass. (I Think) LOL!!! ;D
Knife
I have a checkering file as well. Do you think it's more effective, than a regular flat file?
It is more even, and gives deeper valleys. The pattern is very easy to see and duplicate each time as well. That, and he valleys and peaks can be further apart, depending on lines per inch of file.
Knife
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My concentration probs showing
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Your bore groove ratio looks to be about 70-75 groove / 25-30 bore with 6 grooves. so it will not swage out to the grooves as much as the Mrod and L.W. barrels with their 10 groove/bores and prob about 80/20 groove/bore...So I can run a bit looser... Maybe...
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should read the other way round but my mind transposed things for me...
Your bore groove ratio looks to be about 80 groove / 20 bore with 6 grooves. so it will not swage out to the grooves as much as the Mrod and L.W. barrels with their 10 groove/bores and prob about 70-75/ 30-25 groove/bore...So I can run a bit looser... Maybe...
:-[
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The wind is howling here in Eufaula, 34 degrees, nnw at 15 and gusting to I don't know what. Swirling from left to right and coming over the ridge where I shoot, playing havoc with any shooting at all. I went to the range and tried a few shots but unfortunately the conditions are such I cannot get an accurate assessment of the different ammo that I have prepared. I really want to test these at 100 yards and not 50. I need a calm, warmer day to see what this knurling will do, to be able to give it a proper review. I'm running loads to Michigan in the morning so it will be next weekend at the earliest I can shoot here again. Its supposed to be 78 here next Saturday and hopefully the wind will cooperate.
As a side note.. I've noticed these really lead up my barrel a lot faster than pellets. I've put maybe 350 rounds down the barrel since my last cleaning and it looks like its time to do it again? Anyone else notice this? Maybe my barrel being choked has a bit to do with this?
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The wind is howling here in Eufaula, 34 degrees, nnw at 15 and gusting to I don't know what. Swirling from left to right and coming over the ridge where I shoot, playing havoc with any shooting at all. I went to the range and tried a few shots but unfortunately the conditions are such I cannot get an accurate assessment of the different ammo that I have prepared. I really want to test these at 100 yards and not 50. I need a calm, warmer day to see what this knurling will do, to be able to give it a proper review. I'm running loads to Michigan in the morning so it will be next weekend at the earliest I can shoot here again. Its supposed to be 78 here next Saturday and hopefully the wind will cooperate.
As a side note.. I've noticed these really lead up my barrel a lot faster than pellets. I've put maybe 350 rounds down the barrel since my last cleaning and it looks like its time to do it again? Anyone else notice this? Maybe my barrel being choked has a bit to do with this?
Leading is definitely more of a factor with my rifle and the lead/tin mix I'm using. I'll be trying some lube (10w synthetic ) on the next batch I put through the barrel to see if it helps .
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I have found that a good polishing of the bore, and using 10wt silicone oil helped to a great degree.
Before the polishing, I was getting nor more than 35-40 shots before accuracy fill off in the .257 and often 25 was the last of shots before I noticed a fall off. And it was a 'Rapid" fall that would hit all at once.
Now, this fall off in accuracy is in the 150 to 200 shot + realm. 8)
I will be happy to give my method if interested hire on the forum.
Knife
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By all means, please do. Anything I can learn I'm open to and grateful for. I want to be ready and give these knurled a fair shake.
Edit: I last cleaned mine with goo gone, then jb non - embedding bore paste and finished off with mothers mag wheel polish. Immediately saw a drastic difference. I lube with slick 50 one lube, but I am open to learning a better way or one that last longer. I do seem to have better results lubing my bullets/pellets.
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I will try to post it tomorrow. I tried 1 shot, and it did very well for pellets, but not bullets.
It is a lengthy read. If I cannot get it done, I will post my home #, as it is a process that needs to be done correctly. Don't know if I can get it written with the right nuance as it is a delicate procedure that I developed myself. I'm very annal on accuracy. ;).
Knife
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Here's a video I saw a few weeks ago on lapping a barrel. Looked like a great tutorial, and I think the author had some National titles to back up his techniques. IIRC.
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Thank you Mr. Michael and thank you Mr. .Ken. I'm getting about the 150-200 shots or so it seems. I didn't chk the count, but I will. I am just not sure how often I should use the jb non embedding bore paste and mothers mag polish. I haven't heard of any issues with goo gone from anyone so far. I've heard that you can go to far with lapping, so at this point I may let someone with experience do mine. I need a definitive method and material for regular cleaning. I'll do a quick clean with goo gone and dry patches when I get back home this weekend before I test these bbt.
Mr Ken.... I think the video is missing 😃
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Sorry about that. That's what happens when you're up past your bed time for several nights in a row.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM8xaaUaTTY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM8xaaUaTTY)
One of the many projects on my to do list. After I finish a couple of bull pup stocks and LDC's.
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so good to see you here Bill!
I have a few checkering files, that i have a strong feeling will do an excellent job! They have very sharp points, rather than the typical lines a normal file has. So one pass will do away with a need to do the norman opposing angle pass. (I Think) LOL!!! ;D
Knife
Yes! Never crossed my mind doing but checker Ingraham files would be easier to manage I think. Let us know.
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Definitely, please post here and let us know. I'm inspired to find a set on my way home to also try. It's a real pain trying to get that crosshatch with regular files, ( I tried 🙄) and not sure that is consistent from one to the next.
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Had a chance to talk with Michael (knifemaker) today. Very nice guy! Gave me a lot of good information and really enjoyed talking air guns with him. Great guys here on the GTA!!
I had a chance to run down and shoot a couple of targets this evening. Knurled and un-knurled at 100 yards. I will say, that I am pushing the limits of this bullet with my barrel twist, which is 1-18. I think someone with a faster twist will have better results. The difference is not astounding but noticeable. I don't normally shoot at 100 yards, especially with my .25 but thought it would be a great challenge for the 100 yard challenge here on GTA. My final thoughts? I think if you are wanting to tighten the group for a particular bullet, its worth the try. The comment that bullets should be sized to the thousandth of an inch is spot on. But, this is a very cool way tighten the groups if it is not exactly spot on. I tried lite knurling, knurling only the back band and knurling the back band as well as the rear portion of the nose as the file rested on that part naturally. I got the best results on knurling both the nose and band with and aggressive knurling. Ymmv. So anyone trying this, please post your results. I'd love to see them. (there are two bullets in one hole on the top of the knurled target picture) That group is 1.1 inches.
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Daniel, if you get a chance, please post these results on the NOE Forum.... http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/board,24.0.html (http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/board,24.0.html)
Great work !!!
Bob
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Thank you Mr. Bob! I sure will. I would love to see some others give it a go and post. There are some awesome shooters here.
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I enjoyed talking to you as well. 8)
It would seem that there is merit in the process, and certainly warrants further experimentation.
I do feel that trying true metal checkering files would add a mucn deeper and more uniform pattern to the bullets, with nothing more than rolling the bullets between one and a hard flat surface.
Checkering files, are sadly, Expensive!!! Mine are all Swiss manufactured,and very expensive. But they cut steel like butter. ;)
After all, they had to be able to cut Aerospace Turbine steel for a living. LOL (This is what "all" My knives were made from).
Thank you for bringing this possibility to the attention of the AG Bullet Shooting fraternity Sir!!! ;) :D 8)
Knife
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Very informative ,thanks . I'm returning from work on Wednesday and should be able to put some lead down range hopefully before the next weekend. I'll try to get some pics up if the results aren't too disappointing.