GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => China/Asian AirGun Gate => Topic started by: gene_sc on April 25, 2011, 05:26:58 PM
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OK guys and gals.. I gave Ernie my friend a call last night and he agreed to come over and shoot the new Stoeger X-20 S .22. We ran a string of ten shots accross my chrony outside my shop to get a good accurate reading. Due to operator error with camera I was unable to get the full string on film. But I did record the numbers.
First this gun belongs to my customer who has sent it for a gas ram conversion. Second I cleaned the barrel with a few patches. NOTE! You will have to use a straw like on the Gamo Whisper to by pass the baffles when using a weed wacker line and patch.
OK after Ernie put exactly 28 shots through her and the smoke stopped we got the chrony ready. Using RWS Superdomes .22, 14.5 grn pellet. Here are the numbers and pictures of what I caught on camera.
1.886
2.882
2.874
3.875
4.869
5.856
6 863
The rest are pictures I caught.
First thing Ernie and I noticed was that the safety was very hard to push off. That can be adjusted. The synthetic stock is very nice and one of few that I really like.
I still think that the gun was passing a bit of lube. This was a test wiff chrony under a 100 shots. Numbers could go up a bit or down depending on what shape the seal is in.
Personaly I feel that the average numbers this .22 can produce is not a judge. Also remember that the spring in these Stoegers are about the same wire size, coil count and length as a JM Tarntula Spring. At best I have seen Gamo .22 with this same powerplant shoot 800 fps. Very rarely ever goes over 800 fps.
Could be with different pellets used you may get higher numbers but the RWS Superdome 14.5 grn. and say the Crosman Premier 14.3 are almost the same. With the Premiers being a tad lighter.
The scope is nice and compact and has a illuminated recticle.
As far as gun being as quiet as a Gamo Whisper I thought it was a tad louder. But spring and guide make alot of noise. It was very nice and smooth cocking.
After my gas ram conversion I will come back with some more numbers.
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To bad they are not around here, looks like about 23 fpe, Thats pretty powerful.Rob
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Good lookin gun.....pretty strong shooter out of the gate...
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Even after the dieseling settles down, it looks like a pretty strong shooter around 800fps. That's really good for an easy cocker. Anyone have any real dB readings?
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Those readings are right in with the first numbers I got. That first run gave me an average of 857. It is the second run in the 9's that made me want to retest outside. However my friend has the gun now.
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Those are still some fantastic numbers, nothin to sneeze at :) I'm really starting to weaken and keep looking at the "order" button. Only thing keeping me from pushing it is the "conversation" that will undoubtedly take place with the wife once the button is pushed :) especially since I've had air gun related packages show up at the house for the past 3 days.
Anyway, I'm impressed with the numbers, would make a great hunter.
Jeff
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I'm still trying to sort out the quietness thing. Gene, you've been exposed to many rifles (might want to get that rash checked out!! ;D ) Anyway, I'm trying to get a sense of the loudness in relative terms. If you look at the guns in my signature, is the X20s as loud as any there which you might be familiar with?
thanks,
dumbfounded darryl
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Dang Darryl, your a man after my own heart. And yes our government is the best that money can buy... :)
OK, IMO the New X-20 Suppressor is not any nosier than an RWS-52.... :) It is a springer and I have no means of measuring muzzle noise. But the noise I hear when shooting the gun is no different than most springer's out of the box. You have a metal spring guide and spring rubbing together with the piston slamming home. My hearing is bad but honestly I do not notice a difference.
I am suspicious of the spring in this new Stoeger. Mechanically you have the same O/D of piston seal and I/D of combustion chamber and length of stroke here as any B-19, Gamo S1K or Crosman Quest.
I have a new Stoeger X-20 spring from last conversion here. When I pull this New Suppressor model down Thursday I will be measuring everything as well as wire size, coils etc. on spring. Like I mentioned in my previous post I have only seen maybe one or two Gamo/B-19/Crosman clones ever reach 800 fps in .22.
The numbers I posted are good solid numbers and even surprised me... :)
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Thanks Gene,
My 52 is the .177 version, and I don't think it's quiet at all, even with 10.5grain pellets. So when you say the X20S is no any noisier, I read that as saying the 52 is just as "quiet" as the X20S. Considering sobyo1's comments that the rifle scared a flock of starlings into flight, plus your own impressions, it seems I have to keep looking for my back yard sniper rifle. I could always have one of my existing rifles (52 or 54) quieted down, or save up and get a Marauder (start-up costs keep me at bay right now). I'd thought I'd found the answer. Maybe not.
Anyway, it will be good to have your impression of the internals of this rifle. Can't know enough.
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Very interesting brother Gene all seems the same as the other shooters that you mentioned but it's sure putting out some impressive numbers. As you touched on the spring may have more to it then meet's the eye yo think?. I was hoping to hear that the suppressor modal stood out in the quiet mode but may just look at the other Stoeger modals. Ed
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I'm starting to think the same thing Ed. If it winds up that the shroud really isn't very sound effective then I may start taking a harder look a the other models myself.
Jeff
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I'm starting to think the same thing Ed. If it winds up that the shroud really isn't very sound effective then I may start taking a harder look a the other models myself.
Jeff
My sentiments exactly, although it would be disappointing if the suppressor turned out to be less than what the marketing video implies. Seems a lot of money to spend on commercial hype that the rifle can't live up to. FX Whisper?
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Read an X20-S review on P.A. and the guy reported that his rifle was not as quiet as advertised and that most of the noise came from the spring and spring guide which the shroud would have no effect on. Read a post from @SSS$$$ on another forum in which he said they sold out their first shipment of rifles and are now on their second shipment. With all those guns sold I'm really surprised I haven't seen more reviews...
Jeff
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Thanks for the info Gene... gives me something else to want for my collection... Mike
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I have just received a X-20 Suppressor modal in for a tune and first thing ran it across the chrony. Average fps 830 and I was also impressed with those numbers. I have my chrony set up in my man cave where I put the finishing touch's on tunes and camo and was really interested in the sound level of the X-20 Suppressor.My opinion is that it is quieter then the Gamo suppressor modals since I had some on hand also to do a side by side test. There is the sound of the spring but not as much as a Gamo in stock form and I really like how the Stoeger feels and shoulders. Like Gene I'm eyeballing the spring like a detective and I also found a rubber dampening wafer in the bottom of the piston? but it was smashed already on a new airgun. The action and part's scream Crosman and I'm really excited to tune it and do some more testing. Ed
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I'm eagerly awaiting your testing results Ed. :)
Guess my finger will be hovering over the "order" button until I read your results :)
Jeff
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Was pretty busy this week but finished up most of my projects yesterday and anxiously awaiting opening up the Stoeger X-20 Suppressor .22.....All parts on the new X-20 Suprssor .22 match up with the standard Stoeger X-20. Only exception would be the caliber and the new shrouded barrel and synthetic stock.
I measerued all part carefully and was able to even compare the Supressor parts against standard X-20.. All dimension remain the same.
But I did find something very interesting. Under the top had against the front of pist I found a 1/4" round silicone rubber disc. It was plyable with fingers. This could be the answer why the fps was higher than the norm. The silicone button pad must act like when you push a spring. I do not push springs for more power myself but other tuners and even JM sells shorter springs and push's them with delrin spacers. The only other explanation could be a different tensil strength in the newer springs. Only would know that if parts were avaiable to order and one could check standard X-20 spring part number against new X-20 Superssor spring part number.
I really do not have any post information on the X-20 Superesor due to the fact that this was a customers gun that I was converting over to gas ram. With that said I can tell you that the ram converstion tested lower fps than with the spring. Converted X-20 Supressor was throwing lead between 765 to 800 fps depending on which pellets I used.
I will say this about the overal DB noise level with ram conversion with the X-20 Suppressor. It definetly is quite. Now minus spring and metal guides you can actually tell how quiete the muzzle noise is. Stoeger did make her quiet at the muzzle but all that metal mechanical noise over shadowed their improvement.
Over all I think that the Stoeger X-20 Suppressor is well worth the money spent. It has good power out of the box and would make for a great small game hunting air rifle..
Stoeger has done a good job on quieting the report down on the new model.
I have some pictures for you to see what makes up the Stoegers. They use all the same parts in the X-20 series air guns.
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The tune that I'm performing on a customers Stoeger with suppressor has that rubber wafer in the piston also. After I install the custom guide etc. that should complement the suppressor nicely. Ed
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A .22 at 765 that is quiet is great in my opinion...........sounds like it's worth the conversion to let the suppresor do it's work.
These are pretty good out of the box............well worth the price!! They cock very easy, and if you don't care about quiet, they shoot great. I just think the mechanical noise over rides the work the suppersor does. Out of the box, it's not more quiet..........but something to work with. Sounds like a ram conversion would be a good way to go.
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Thank you Shadow and Gene for de-mystifying this rifle for me. The suppressor seems to be doing it's job, but the mechanicals are a bit noisy? Can the mechanical noise be heard by people beyond, say, ten yards? That's the quiet characteristic I'm looking for. My neighbors are close, and I don't need them hearing the "crack of doom" when I try to keep pesky birds and squirrels from damaging my home (again). My quietest gun lacks power to take squirrels out humanely (Cometa Indian pistol), and it's not exactly quiet like I'm looking for. So, I'm tossing about either this spring-powered X20S or the Crosman/Benji Prod.
Anyway, nice work guys. Look forward to more.
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Daryl........it's no more quiet than my HW95K in .22......maybe more loud. It shoots great, cocks smooth with little effort, and is very accurate. A very nice gun............just not quiet at all.
Thinkin this with a ram conversion might be good. I'm like you, needing something quiet.
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After some testing trying to figure out the springs source of power since it basically has the same amount of coils, wire size etc. as other springs that I've compared it too. The soft rubber wafer holds' the key. Test were done before a tune with the rubber wafer in and then after a tune with it out then back in. The fps dropped with it out then climbed back up with it in. I was surprised to say the least but am now looking at the material of the wafer very closely. This is what I have found in my testing and have conversed with brother Gene about it also. I also took the time to set up my vidcam in my man cave not to do any video but to use it's mic for sound testing between my Whisper and the Stoeger Suppressor. It's a poor mans method but with the vidcam in the same position and along with the mic I shot five rounds from each airgun with it resting in a gunrest in the same position. The vidcam was 20feet away from the barrel and after taking five shot's from each airgun then playing back the video the Stoeger came out the winner. Both airguns are tuned spring not ram and with no spring noise one of the reasons for a tune hehe. Again this was just a poor mans test but even with a vidcam mic picking up sound the Stoeger came out on top in my test. I will be ordering one for myself. :D Ed
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All good news fer da Stoeger Ed. Like I said my hearing aint dat good anymore but I did not have a chance to test the it with a full on turbo tune with delrin guide. Now we know that with a turbo tune she is a winner all the way.
Amazing how that little piece of rubber would give ya an increase of up to 100 fps.. Dats what it is all about. Learning what makes things tick..:)
Thanks for you post to clarify noise levels. I do know with gas ram she is very quiet as well.
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The gas ram version I'm sure will drop the sound down more. I'm still in wonder about that rubber wafer but the wafer don't lie hehe and again this is from my testing but after going through her like you with a fine tooth tuning comb the wafer was looking suspect and I just had to do some break it down again and testing. Ed
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I was also impressed in how it responds to a tune and even in the stock form the Stoeger is quieter then the Gamo's firing cycle. Ed
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Guys, would you say the X20s is as quiet as a P-rod PCP pistol? That is my alternate choice for a quiet pest-control pellet gun. It won't have the power or the range of the X20s but it works for close-in stuff 30 yards or less. Also, will that rubber wafer wear down over time (reducing power)?
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I cannot give you a good answer since I do not own or have compared it to a P-ROD. If the PCP has a suppressor on it then my guess is that it's quieter since PCP's have no spring or ram inside to contribute to noise. I think the rubber wafer would hold up fro a long time from what I inspected from it's consistency but the only problem that I noticed was that the spring sits right on it. This doesn't let the spring twist smoothly during the firing cycle and also dig's into the wafer. I ultra thin thrust washer on top of it would solve the problem but not to thick since it may interfere with piston locking up to the sear properly. Ed
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Thanks, Ed. I've begun to lean towards the quieter PCP pistol (need to collect more beer cans now). Also, in my naive way I'd be suspicious of that rubber wafer needing to be replaced in time if the spring sits right on it. Isn't the spring under tension at all times? If so, I'd wonder if that wafer would suffer an indentation over time where the spring is in contact under pressure, and pushing on it. Seems kind of like a gasket taking the impression from whatever it's in contact under pressure. Consider this a teach-Darryl-sumthin moment and tell me where I misunderstand, please.
PS I hope you upload your comparative video one day.
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Shadow, do you think that maybe the silicone disc will work the same way in a different air rifle? If so that could be a cool ad-on for your tuneups.
Ed
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It's possible and I'm looking into the rubber disk material since it's not just regular rubber. Ed
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Wow those are some serious anti-spam measures just to sign up here :D Hello all first post, just a quick question. I'm looking to buy either the X20s or the X20 or the Crosman G1 Xtreme. Just wondering if the X20s is worth the extra $80 over the X20 (synthetic) and if the Stoegers are better build quality than the G1 Xtreme. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Glen
BTW, I'm looking at the .177 models.
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Hi d,I have an x20 and it has been tunes and it shoots very well.its one of my favorites and is one of the rifles i still have that is boring accurate out to 30 yards.I can cover the hole pattern with a nickel out to 30 yards,after that it opens up just a bit but very quite gun also.i would like an x20s when its available in wood possibly later this year.I like the shorter barrel and overall shorter length of gun.Just my imput on gun,Ive had mine awhile now and have many shots through it so it has settled down alot now.Trigger change makes it even better.
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Hi Glen, welcome to GTA, nice to have you with us.
I own a .177 cal Stoeger X20 and a G1-Extreme. Both are nice rifles for the money. My G1 is now tuned, but even in stock form it was a great shooter. My X20 is bone stock except for the GRT trigger, my G1 has the gold trigger as well. For the money I don't think you can go wrong with either one, I think they're both a good "bang for your buck". That being said though, if I could only buy one I'd buy the X20. The shorter barrel length is very nice, especially when hunting in the woods, and overall I just like the build of the X20. Just my 2 cents.
I'll be looking forward to your future posts and again, Welcome :)
Jeff
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Thanks Jeff and ddgrego for the info!! I guess as always it comes down to the money issue then. If the G1 is the cheapest, the X20 is $40 more, and the X20 Suppressor model is $80 more the the regular X20, is it worth the extra money to move up to the "suppressed" model? My overall goal is for accuracy shooting and the occasional pest control. I have a $30 Cabelas gift card burning a hole in my pocket and I don't want to waste money if its not needed. Thanks again to everyone's input. BTW, the last air rifle I had was a Daisey 880 circa 1980ish :P
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See which one fits you best and go from there! Let us know what you got and how she does.I dont have a G1 but have heard good things about it too.
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From the reviews I've read it appears that the "suppressor" model is not that much quieter than the standard X20 rifles so I would say based on the reviews so far the "S" model is probably not worth the extra money if you're on a finite budget for a rifle. Based on your intended use for the rifle, combined with the fact that your budget is firmly fixed, I'd say get the G1 Extreme. The G1 will do everything you need and will save you $40 bucks.
Jeff
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Thanks Jeff, well my budgets not that tight (just dont tell my wife ;) ) I've narrowed it a little further to either the x10 or the x20 (combo models) besides the stock and scope (and $40) I dont see what the difference is between them??? Also, would you say that a .177 is any more accurate than a .22 calibre? The biggest thing I would ever take with it would be the stray rabbit eating my garden and I would think that the proper pellet would out weigh the calibre. What do you think?
Glen
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Just started researching these guns myself and am going to pick one up based on all of your recommendations, can i confirm with you Ed or Gene that all of the guns come with the rubber "boost" washer or is it only certain models(ie supressor) or calibers? From all i can find on them the X10 and 20 have the same internals. Supressor models have the same internals.. they are all the same gun unless you get the X50? Anyone found internals damaged from all the dieseling? Thanks fellas, J
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Glen, my .177 X-20 is extremely accurate, shooting ragged hole groups at 30 yards and it's not pellet picky at all. I haven't had the pleasure to shoot a .22 cal Stoeger yet but I don't see why the .22 version would be any less accurate than a .177 I think the "S" model is the only one available at the current time in .22 caliber, although I haven't been checking lately so I may be wrong. The .177 will do a fine job on taking out a rabbit or squirrel. I use my .177 guns to small game hunt with all the time and they do a great job. As you already know the key with either caliber is proper shot placement. I would say the .177 cal would be perfect for your needs.
Jeff,, I haven't been "inside" the Stoeger line of rifles so I don't know if they all have that rubber "boost" washer, but Ed and Gene certainly can answer your question regarding that. I can say that when I got my X-20 I cleaned the barrel and just started shooting it and I had no problem with dieseling. I love my X-20, I think it's a great bang for the buck. Mine is still stock, except for the trigger.
JEff
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Thanks Jeff, I'll wait a day or two and see if Gene or Ed see's this post, if not i'll pm them. They have now come out with wooden stocked X20(pretty wood too!) in .22 for $130.00ish. If these low priced guns have the same internals as the X20S, that will be the gun to try considering the huge ftlbs everyone was noting from them. They are however, out of stock everywhere at the moment. If the chinese would get back to producing guns(or our retailers back to ordering them?) i'll bet they could sell a heck of a lot more of them... ;D
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Hey Mr dopalgangr if you order from Pyramid use "nutnfancy" and save 10% on your order which I'm sure you already know(if posting this is not allowed please remove). I have the X20 in .177 and love it. Of course its my first air rifle but I have no regrets with my purchase. I got the the combo version. The scope did go south on me but I called Stoeger and they are sending me a new scope. Kudos to Stoeger for great customer service.
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Could the silicone wafer be acting like a dead-blow hammer? One of the ways to increase power is to keep the piston at full stroke as long as possible. Some have tried spring-loaded counter-weights that shift forward to retard the piston's rebounding. I'm wondering if this disk isn't just adding a skosh of preload but actually dampening the rebound? If so, Stoeger is on to something - if (and it is a BIG if) that material can last.
BTW, what is the cocking effort listed at? 800+ fps is pretty robust for a break barrel.
PS - PyramydAir is listing all models of the X20 as available in .22 around 6/27, and on sale for $130. Use a 10$ coupon and that's pretty inexpensive.
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Thanks guys for the Pyramid Air tips, unfortunately I purchased it from Cabelas because I had the gift card (although it has not arrived yet) I ended up getting the X20 combo but I think it may have been pre-mature. I have been doing more research (I normally do a lot before I purchase something) and have been think of the nitro piston vs the spring. I'm now looking at the CROSMAN NITRO VENOM .177. The reviews claim that the piston is quieter than the spring and will last longer, also it can remain cocked longer with no ill effects ??? . What do you guys think of that? I may send the Stoeger back now in exchange for the Venom. If only Stoeger put one of those Nitro Pistons in their x20 Suppressed model, then it would be real quiet.
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I have a .177 Nitro Venom and the rifle is awesome. My rifle has the full barrel shroud and I must say it's much quieter than my springers.
Jeff
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Was pretty busy this week but finished up most of my projects yesterday and anxiously awaiting opening up the Stoeger X-20 Suppressor .22.....All parts on the new X-20 Suprssor .22 match up with the standard Stoeger X-20. Only exception would be the caliber and the new shrouded barrel and synthetic stock.
I measerued all part carefully and was able to even compare the Supressor parts against standard X-20.. All dimension remain the same.
But I did find something very interesting. Under the top had against the front of pist I found a 1/4" round silicone rubber disc. It was plyable with fingers. This could be the answer why the fps was higher than the norm. The silicone button pad must act like when you push a spring. I do not push springs for more power myself but other tuners and even JM sells shorter springs and push's them with delrin spacers. The only other explanation could be a different tensil strength in the newer springs. Only would know that if parts were avaiable to order and one could check standard X-20 spring part number against new X-20 Superssor spring part number.
I really do not have any post information on the X-20 Superesor due to the fact that this was a customers gun that I was converting over to gas ram. With that said I can tell you that the ram converstion tested lower fps than with the spring. Converted X-20 Supressor was throwing lead between 765 to 800 fps depending on which pellets I used.
I will say this about the overal DB noise level with ram conversion with the X-20 Suppressor. It definetly is quite. Now minus spring and metal guides you can actually tell how quiete the muzzle noise is. Stoeger did make her quiet at the muzzle but all that metal mechanical noise over shadowed their improvement.
Over all I think that the Stoeger X-20 Suppressor is well worth the money spent. It has good power out of the box and would make for a great small game hunting air rifle..
Stoeger has done a good job on quieting the report down on the new model.
I have some pictures for you to see what makes up the Stoegers. They use all the same parts in the X-20 series air guns.
I am interested in the Stoeger X-20 Suppressor, and the Gas piston conversion. There was mention of a kit, did any thing come of that? If not where can I find the parts?
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I know this topic is dead,but I have to comment.Stoeger is coming out with a new model called the atac shrouded barrel, it has a stock similar to gamo whisper fusion and comes with a better scope as well as a gas ram and what appears to be the same shrouded barrel as the x20s has.Take a look at pyramyd-air,(3042) is the item number.
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Something I don't understand and quite frankly find unacceptable is gene saw fit to censor part of the name of the gun I was talking about,it's f**kinging called the (stoeger atac suppressor),so why the *(&^ in an adult airgun forum are we getting hung up on such childish things?This is probably posted in the wrong spot,but I felt I needed to follow up the post that got edited(unnecessarily)by mein fuhrer cause I thought I was in an adult airgun forum,but apparently gene wants to pretend it's disney land.
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I am waiting on that ATAC Shrouded barrel that is coming out this month in 177 and in August in 22. It has a gas ram and looks pretty sweet. Would love to see a review on that model.