GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Hatsan Airguns => Topic started by: jim p on November 13, 2016, 08:18:21 PM
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I don't think that it is the gun. If I lay the gun on some bags and only touch the trigger the gun will shoot .5" groups at 20 yards using the optima scope. If I hold the gun in any way then I get 1.5" groups. I have tried many different holds. Has anyone else experience a gun that does not want to be touched?
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Welcome to the finicky world of springers. Yes they do not like to be squeezed to hard. If you want an easy gun to shoot get a PCP.
Research the "artillery hold" and you are well on your way...
-Y
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I have tried the artillery hold with no luck. I shoot the gun from a rest bench and hold it as lightly as possible and it throws pellets in a 1.5" group.
I have read that you should not allow the gun to just rest on a bag but you should always have a hand between the gun and the bag. I just can't get the accuracy that I want this way.
I don't want to go pcp. Maybe I need to find a good pumper. Any suggestions on a good pumper.
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0.5 inch groups are a good place to start. Yes just barely touch the rifle. Gun on bag rest, butt just touching shoulder, you will get there, just practice practice practice...
-Y
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How much have you shot the 95? They do have a breaking in period and it varies from gun to gun but could take several tins of pellets for it to "settle in".
Also finding the pellet it prefers can be an adventure all on its own.
Then there is the mental game. You can try too hard and start throwing pellets everywhere.
I am guilty of this, I have two guns that I have been shooting sub 1" groups with at 25-35 yards. Thought I was ready to try a match here on GTA and when it came to the "pressure" of a timed match, I could barely hit the paper! Chased that darn target all over the place. ::)
Give it time and see if things improve.
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There is a love/hate relation with springers. They take a lot of practice and patience to be successful with them. I have one that will give you a workout cocking it, kick you like a mule if you hold it to tight, and might get a one inch group at 20 yds on a good day. I still have it because I finally found it's happiness with the way I hold it and the type of pellet it likes, believe me there were days I wanted to wrap it around a tree. I ran into the same thing when I bought my second springer. My piston gun shot totally different from my springers, but the principal was the same. Like others have stated, practice, practice, practice. You have to become one with the gun. ;)
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My 95QE took right around 400 shots to settle in and when it did it changed the pellets it likes. My advise is to remove the scope until you break in your gun then if You like put it back on. A scope only adds to the frustration of breaking in a springer IMO.
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Pellets are a big factor as they can vary from tin to tin and sometimes even IN the same tin. Maybe I missed it but you didn't say what pellets you're shooting and/or have tried and having 5 Vortex powered rifles, every one of them took me trying at least 6 to 8 different brands and kinds of pellets to find which ones they shot best.
The scope might also come into play as the included Optima scopes from every post I've ever read on them can be fickle little beasts at best and outright failures at worst and most people who have one either put it on a lesser powered rifle or don't use it at all and get a better quality scope when they get the rifle. I've only used one of the 6 I've gotten with rifles and that one was on a Webley Spector .177 just to see how long it might hold up. Started out ok and decent groups but after the first 100 or so pellets took regular tweaking to keep those decent groups and finally completely went a little under 500 shots.
Biggest thing is not getting discouraged and from the replies already made, Kris said it and I'm guessing the othersalso had those days where they just wanted to wrap rifles around trees, I know i have and I have 18 rifles between spring and gas rammed...lol. You're going to have good days and bad ones, we all do, it's just the nature and challenge of shooting springers.
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I have 500 to 1000 shots on the gun using crosman premier hollow points.
I am going to check all the stock screws to see if anything is loose.
I don't mind putting another 1000 shots through the gun if that is needed to get the pellets to one hole at 20 yards.
There is just something wrong with hitting 600 yard targets with my 223 and not being able to hit a 20 yard target with my springer.
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It's funny; I felt the same way for a long time. The artillery hold helped me and practice helped me. There are a few higher end springers that are easier to shoot and simulate more a powder burner - you don't have to go pcp, but you may have to upgrade the springer you have. Air arms pro sport, air arms tx200 (I think it's called) and the Diana 56th leap to mind. All are under lever shooters, but the 56th's entire action moves back as you shoot absorbing recoil. Other then that, with air guns, it's practice practice practice. I just bought an air pistol - a gas piston Benjamin Trail NP in .177 and it recoils crazy. But I can definitely see my problems pulling the trigger, anticipating recoil and jerking - just doing stupid stuff. I practiced all day and finally got a 1" group at 7 yards. Wow. Very very unimpressive, but I'll keep trying ;D
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Being a Hatsan .22, I'm going to say try RWS Superdomes, H&N FTT's in the 5.53 head size, JSB 15.89gr or even the JSB 18.13gr and Air Arms Field Diabolo 5.52 head size pellets. At least 2 of those 5 shoot very well in all my .22's and way better than the Crosman pellets do.
As much as I'd like having a rifle that I can run to Walmart and just grab a couple tins of the Crosman's, I have yet to own a rifle that shoots them well, none of my Hatsan's do and the only hollow points any of my .22's shoot well are the H&N Crow Magnums and H&N Baracuda Extreme Hunter.
I know they cost more, but having the accuracy is well worth the extra couple dollars for pellets :)
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I got about 1/4 turn on all the stock screws and I just shot 5 groups of 5 pellets and the groups were quarter size or less. I can live with this for now. After I get another couple of hundred shots on the gun I may snug the screws up again.
I want to get the gun shooting with the cheap crosman pellets. The main reason that I got an air gun was to be able to shoot for very low cost. When I order pellets and the pellets end up costing over 8 cents per pellet then it is no longer cheaper to shoot pellets than it is to shoot 22lr.
Once the size of the groups get below 1", the accuracy of the scope comes into play. I may need to get a better scope so that I can put the final touches on the group sizes.
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Not trying to talk you out of a Springer but just to answer your question.
I don't want to go pcp. Maybe I need to find a good pumper. Any suggestions on a good pumper.
I haven't seen this addressed by anyone yet, but your choices are rather limited for a new gun.
I love my Benji 392 with a Williams Peep... If you gotta have a scope, you could pick up a gun/scope combo for ~$200.
Now if don't mind a used one that same $200 would get you a nice Sheridan Blue Streak. They are .20 caliber so pellet selection is limited.
I have 500 to 1000 shots on the gun using crosman premier hollow points.
So your talking a couple tins, I have read of some taking more but I bet you should be close by now.
I am going to check all the stock screws to see if anything is loose.
If you haven't done this yet that may very well be the issue!
There is just something wrong with hitting 600 yard targets with my 223 and not being able to hit a 20 yard target with my springer.
Apples to Oranges. I felt exactly the same way about my .17HMR and thought that would be an easy transition... but NO it was NOT!
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I got about 1/4 turn on all the stock screws and I just shot 5 groups of 5 pellets and the groups were quarter size or less. I can live with this for now. After I get another couple of hundred shots on the gun I may snug the screws up again.
I want to get the gun shooting with the cheap crosman pellets. The main reason that I got an air gun was to be able to shoot for very low cost. When I order pellets and the pellets end up costing over 8 cents per pellet then it is no longer cheaper to shoot pellets than it is to shoot 22lr.
Once the size of the groups get below 1", the accuracy of the scope comes into play. I may need to get a better scope so that I can put the final touches on the group sizes.
In this case, I'd suggest searching around and see if you can find the brown box version of the CPHP pellets then. The box version are first run A die pellets and better quality than the ones generally found in the tins which tend to be 2nd run B die.
As far as scopes and saving money, the Hammers 3-9x40 AO gets good reviews and can usually be had on Amazon for about $65 and about the same with the Centerpoint scopes which you can usually save on straight from Crosman with the 20% off code and free shipping Friday deals. Both come with mounts although a one piece scope mount is the usual recommendation and the Hammers comes with one.
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I don't think that it is the gun. If I lay the gun on some bags and only touch the trigger the gun will shoot .5" groups at 20 yards using the optima scope. If I hold the gun in any way then I get 1.5" groups. I have tried many different holds. Has anyone else experience a gun that does not want to be touched?
Not sure your situation, but guessing you chose 20 yards for a reason?
At 20 yards, just to keep your trigger finger busy at a decent price, I'd suggest .177 caliber (price$$$), and a Daisy 880 or 901. The 880 will require some work more often than not to make it as accurate as it can get - we do have a Daisy gate.
For what you got though, everybody is giving you the straight poop. Just because you get a good group on a sand bag with a particular pellet doesn't mean a different pellet can't do better with a change in hold. Also true that break in cures a lot of evils.
You CAN, if willing, "accelerate" break-in by tuning. Sometimes an air rifle will rise to its fullest potential after breaking in, sometimes it never will be as good as it can be made by tuning. For example, trigger parts wear in, barrel swarf might get pushed out and irregularities wear off the lands and grooves, a seal may wear-in. Tuning means you don't have to wait for all that to happen, and addresses possible other things that can reduce vibration of the shot cycle or air turbulence (i.e. re-crowning).
Problem with a springer (or gas ram) is a long lock time. Yours might do better with a variation of the artillery hold, but some (lucky few %!) also actually perform better with a firm grip.
All I can really think of to suggest is watch out for cut seals (Hatsan reams a fill hole for vortex rifles and the swarf cuts the seals), and if you are not going to tune it I would Loctite the screws using the blue or purple stuff. When you clean the barrel be careful at the crown if pulling patches using fishing line, or use a coated rod that has a decent bearing and nothing harder than a nylon brush.
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Mine isn't the QE version but I love the UTG scope on my 95. The JSB 18.13's work best in my gun, so far. I too wanted the CPHP's to work since they're cheap and at Walmart, but such is not the case.
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I don't think that it is the gun. If I lay the gun on some bags and only touch the trigger the gun will shoot .5" groups at 20 yards using the optima scope. If I hold the gun in any way then I get 1.5" groups. I have tried many different holds. Has anyone else experience a gun that does not want to be touched?
You mentioned you have a few hundred pellets through it. My 1st 95QE took 450 pellets to break in, then promptly changed it's diet to something heavier. Alas, that 95QE had to be RMA'd, but the replacement right out of the box is a beast and hurls Polymags with good accuracy. Both guns were chambered in .25 caliber.
About your 22... go to Straightshooters and buy their sampler pack. For $30 you can sample over 20 pellets to find what your gun likes. It's probably the best way to find out what to feed your Hatsan. I have found I can offhand my 95QE with minute-of-squirrel-noggin accuracy (at 20 yards or less) if I hold the forestock just in front of the trigger and maintain solid contact against my shoulder, using both hands with loose grip. I'm shooting open sights, and have been very happy with the results. I was using a scope at first, then switched to my Red-Dot, then said the heck with it and now shoot open only. When I was using the Optima, I set it for 6x for sighting in. Once I determined the best pellet, I used the red-dot for some plinking, then removed it and dialed in the iron sights, which are actually pretty darn good.
I've also found if I am using my Caldwell bag, the rubbery-grippy stuff on the Y prevents the 95 from moving the way it should, so I stick a folded microfiber rag on top of the bag, then hold firm against my shoulder with just my finger on the trigger. My groups shrank by nearly half once I did this. So... aside from checking the screws, it may be worth moving your lead hand further back and experimenting with your stance. I can also attest to not shooting for accuracy if I'm frustrated or tired- I'll even shoot my pistol horribly and that thing's a tack-driver.
If you are looking for a .22 pumper, the Benji 392 is almost the only game in town. I love mine, and as long as you clean out the overspray in the muzzle they are air-powered-death on squirrels and HOSPs. Mine loves Gamo Redfires (used for pesting) and RWS Meistekugeln Domes for pests, RWS Hobbies for paper and sparrows, and CP domes and HPs in the brown box for general mayhem. The RWS Meister-domes shoot the best, with nickel sized group using the open sights at 20 yards, which I would have never believed I was capable of until I learned how to shoot my Hatsan 95QE worth a darn... So, um, if you can shoot a springer well, it positively affects your accuracy with ALL other guns. :)
I'll add I have not yet tried Polymags in my Benji, nor have I tried JSBs of any weight in my Hatsan- but tomorrow is Pellet-Ordering-Day and I'm short on both .25 and .22 pellets.
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Thanks to all. You have given me some good information and some things to think about.
I have read that you should not clean a pellet rifle unless it starts shooting badly. I also saw that you should not use a brass cleaning brush. Now I see that it is suggested to be careful using a fishing line to pull the patches through the barrel. These barrels must be made of butter instead of steel.
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They aren't made of butter and I've used brass bore brushes on my rifles with no issues whatsoever and even highly regarded tuners on GTA have said they won't. Currently I use Hoppe's bore snakes for cleaning all mine. Usual rule of thumb is to clean the barrel when you first get it to clean out the gunk left during production. After that, if you notice accuracy going south, clean it again but that's usually 4000-5000 or more shots down the road in most cases.
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This makes me feel better. I have a 17 cal bore snake and I have been wanting to run it through the bore a couple of times. I have been using hoppes elite and gun oil on the snake for my other powder burning rifles.
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Hey Jim,
1) Scrub the bore very well (one time) using a Jag/patch and some aggressive paste (JB to mild). Don't over do it. In my experience, Hatsan barrels come very dirty/rusty out of the box. Then go with JB paste and Goo Gone with bore snake in future.
2) Drop the sub-Optima scope - period :P. Get a nice 3x9x40 Hawke or UTG scope or better.
3) My Hatsan 95's usually preferred Boxed CPL/CPUM or H&N FTT. For shorter ranges the RWS Meisterkugeln shot well too.
4) Use a longer, front trigger adjustment screw to lighten the trigger (<$1.00 at Home Depot). Be careful ................. ;).
5) The POWER created by Maxed Out Hatsan springs - hinders their accuracy (excessive recoil) , but the gun shoots very hard for hunting :D.
6) When shooting Hatsans, the trick is to manage the recoil as best you can: This is not a Weihrauch or a PCP. Once you've opted for max. power vs. accuracy -> you need to make the best of it, understanding what you own.
This is a Hunter (Bengal Tiger) , not a target gun (Jaguar) ;D.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/kirk_schwarz/Hatsan95_zpsb620d990.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/kirk_schwarz/media/Hatsan95_zpsb620d990.jpg.html)
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This is a Hunter (Bengal Tiger) , not a target gun (Jaguar)
Dang Kirk, I love your insight.
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If your shooting CPHP's that is a big part of your problem. They are very inconsistent in size. I have a gun that likes them but only the
pellets that fit tightly . The loose fits will shoot 1 to 2 inches lower than the tight fitting ones.
Try this experiment. Put 3 aiming points on a target. If the pellet fit when you load is very tight shoot at spot # 1. If it's snug but not real tight shoot spot #2. For a pellet that feels loose #3. Believe me , you will get all 3 in one tin.
You will be amazed at the variation in groups.
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First my apologies, I thought your rifle was a .22 when I recommended pellets. Even in .177, I'll still say RWS Superdomes, they're one of a couple pellets my 87 QE Vortex .177 shoots very well and a tin of 500 from Amazon is $9.73 currently which works out to a hair less than 2 cents a pellet and they come carded so they hold up nice during shipping and no dented tins and 3 tins would cost you about $2 more than the CPHP brown box and give you 250 more.
https://www.amazon.com/Umarex-Superdome-2317378-Pellets-Caliber/dp/B003UR7REW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479185662&sr=8-1&keywords=rws+superdome+.177 (https://www.amazon.com/Umarex-Superdome-2317378-Pellets-Caliber/dp/B003UR7REW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479185662&sr=8-1&keywords=rws+superdome+.177)
It also shoots H&N Sniper Mediums very well but for now they're hard to find unless Field Supply has them. I always watch for the sales and grab them when they're $12 a tin for 500 which works out to about 2 1/2 cents a pellet.
Don't know if any of this helps but thought I'd put it out there.
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I used a brass brush on my .22 95 as well, no issues at all.
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Yeah, just SCRUB the barrel once to remove all the factory stuff, any rust or smooth any rough areas along the length of the barrel ;). Use a nylon coated rod with ball bearing handle, so all cleaning equipment rotates with the rifling.
Once the barrel is cleaned well, and after smoothing the rough spots & polish using with JB paste, you only need to clean it with Goo Gone on a snake after that ......... unless of course you let it rust or do something else to damage the barrel.
A brass brush or occasional aluminum rod shouldn't hurt either. Fortunately, after a Good cleaning is done, they become unnecessary going forward ....... use the snake and Goo Gone :D.
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This makes me feel better. I have a 17 cal bore snake and I have been wanting to run it through the bore a couple of times. I have been using hoppes elite and gun oil on the snake for my other powder burning rifles.
Most lower end air rifles would probably benefit from 20-30 strokes with JB non-embedding bore paste, followed by some patches soaked with goo gone then dry. I finish with MP5 polarizing oil. Some folks are using polish afterwards too (like chicken soup, couldn't hurt!).
But per your other reply, the steel is soft enough where dragging fishing line over a land repeatedly is not necessarily harmless. Just saying (my $.02), better safe than sorry...
The GTA Library link at the top has some very good articles, believe it or not, as simple as these guns are in principle there are a few things worth knowing that might not be obvious at face value ;)
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I pulled the bore snake through the barrel 3 times and it changed the impact of the pellets a little. I moved the scope a few clicks and it is back on target. The impact may change as the gun leads up a little.
I wanted a gun for hunting and not target shooting. I guess that my definition for the accuracy of a hunting rifle is different from some. 1/2" accuracy at 20 yards is good enough for a hunting rifle but 1" accuracy is pushing it. I don't like wounding animals with sloppy shots.
I think that my next step is to get a good scope and see if I can squeeze a little more accuracy this way.
Some one mentioned to observe how the pellets fit in the gun and to note how the pellet impacted the target. I had one pellet that was very loose. This pellet hit 3" high and the gun sounded much louder almost like it was dry fired. Most of the pellets fit snuggly and one fit very tight. It is obvious that the pellets are not perfectly sized.
In a way I am happy that the gun is not shooting perfectly because this allows me to experiment and learn much more than I would have learned if the gun shot perfectly.
Thanks again for all the help.
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Just my standard protocol with springers/gas piston guns.
Tighten all stock screws before shooting. Not too tight.
Sight it in and plink at non-paper targets for 50-60 shots.
Take the stock off and apply a thin layer of moly lube on any accessible friction points.
Put the stock back on and tighten the screws securely, but, again, not too tight.
If you're putting a scope on the gun, read up on mounting a scope on a springer. Most mounts that come with lower-priced airguns and scopes aren't solid enough and will slide from the gun's recoil. Get a decent $12 to $15 one-piece mount from Amazon or Pyramyd Air.
Sight the scope in and start punching holes in paper. Don't worry about groups yet. Put another 50-60 shots through the gun.
If the gun isn't having any obvious problems (like shooting too low, or wildy large groups), take the screws off, apply some blue loctite, and re-tighten the screws just as before.
Let the gun sit for 24 hours to allow the loctite to set.
Run three cotton patches saturated with Rem Oil from the breech to the muzzle and never worry about cleaning the barrel again.
Now experiment with different pellets. Some of my Hatsans will shoot decently with CPHPs, and some of them just HATE those Crosman pellets. When this has occurred, switching to H&N Field Target Trophy or Umarex/RWS Superdomes made all the difference in the world.
Folks are going to disagree with me about this one, but in my experience, a properly working and lubricated springer or gas piston gun doesn't need 500-1000 shot to settle down. Maybe 200 shots and your gun should group decently with the right pellets.
Just my 2 cents.
-Whirligig
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Carl... that post needs to be a "sticky"
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Carl... that post needs to be a "sticky"
Thanks!
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I have now shot this gun enough to tell where the pellet is going to hit based on how it fits into the barrel. If the fit is tight the pellet is going to hit 1" high and .5" left. If the fit is normal it will hit .5" high. If the pellet fit is loose it will hit 1.5" high.
So now all I have to do is remember how the pellet fits and hold off target accordingly. :)
This is not a perfect system so sometimes I will miscalculate my hold or the gun will actually shoot where I am aiming which can be a problem when holding off target. I am happy to have identified a pattern with how the gun is shooting.
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Just got a real nice qe 95 in 25. shoots very good out of box . does not like the ben (crosman) PELLETS. Likes jsb,hn ftt,and superdomes.
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I have now shot this gun enough to tell where the pellet is going to hit based on how it fits into the barrel. If the fit is tight the pellet is going to hit 1" high and .5" left. If the fit is normal it will hit .5" high. If the pellet fit is loose it will hit 1.5" high.
So now all I have to do is remember how the pellet fits and hold off target accordingly. :)
This is not a perfect system so sometimes I will miscalculate my hold or the gun will actually shoot where I am aiming which can be a problem when holding off target. I am happy to have identified a pattern with how the gun is shooting.
I don't recall which caliber you have, but you might want to invest in some premium pellets that are more consistent. I have good results with Crosman Premier Heavies (brown box) in .177, RWS Superdomes in .22 and various H&N pellets in .25. I know how frustrating it can be to keep chasing POI around and it sounds like the fit in the leade is causing you grief. When hunting or pesting, the last thing you need to think about is "did I just load a loose or tight pellet, and how should I compensate?".
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Those crosman 177 heavies in the brown box look like they may be worth a try. I will have to buy 2 or 3 boxes to get free shipping so it will be a gamble but I can't see them shooting worse than just the 7.9 gr premier hollow points.
From what I am reading a heavy pellet traveling 750 to 850 fps is a little more accurate than higher speed pellets.
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Jim any magnum springer will shoot like poop with light pellets the 10+ grain pellets shoot best in my .177 Diana D460 T06. The other thing is heavy triggers tend to cause most shooters to pull the shot so make sure that the trigger is as light as safety permits and silky smooth. On the trigger assembly a very gentle clean up and bearing surface carefully polished will improve accuracy immensely. and some where ~1 and 2 lbs trigger pull makes for a good all around trigger
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Those crosman 177 heavies in the brown box look like they may be worth a try. I will have to buy 2 or 3 boxes to get free shipping so it will be a gamble but I can't see them shooting worse than just the 7.9 gr premier hollow points.
From what I am reading a heavy pellet traveling 750 to 850 fps is a little more accurate than higher speed pellets.
If you want to try the CP heavies you can order a 500ct tin at walmart and ship to store for free.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosman-Premier-Ultra-Magnum-.177-Caliber-Pellets-10.5-Grain-500-Count/14234825 (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosman-Premier-Ultra-Magnum-.177-Caliber-Pellets-10.5-Grain-500-Count/14234825)
Amazon has the 1250ct boxed for $25, free ship for prime customers. I don't see any difference in the tin & boxed, but some claim the boxed are better.
Crosman on eBay has the boxed for $28 shipped:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crosman-Premier-177-caliber-Domed-Pellets-1250-count-177DB-/262637339882?hash=item3d2667c4ea:g:aiUAAOxyTjNSpJr6 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crosman-Premier-177-caliber-Domed-Pellets-1250-count-177DB-/262637339882?hash=item3d2667c4ea:g:aiUAAOxyTjNSpJr6)
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It looks like I am too dumb to order and have them delivered to walmart. Maybe the next time I am in a walmart, I will just ask them to order the pellets for me.
I have ordered things before and had them delivered to walmart, but just can't do it today.
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[
Amazon has the 1250ct boxed for $25, free ship for prime customers. I don't see any difference in the tin & boxed, but some claim the boxed are better.
Crosman on eBay has the boxed for $28 shipped:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crosman-Premier-177-caliber-Domed-Pellets-1250-count-177DB-/262637339882?hash=item3d2667c4ea:g:aiUAAOxyTjNSpJr6 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crosman-Premier-177-caliber-Domed-Pellets-1250-count-177DB-/262637339882?hash=item3d2667c4ea:g:aiUAAOxyTjNSpJr6)
I understand that the 1250 count Crossman Premier boxes are all from the same batch. The pellets in the tin are all from random batches.
-Y
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Try JSB .177 10.34 grain. I never went back to 7.9 grains except for my pistols after using this pellet.
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I went by walmart and they can not have the pellets shipped to the store.
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I went by walmart and they can not have the pellets shipped to the store.
The online walmart pick up shows that Alexander city, Tallassee, and both Auburn stores show instore pick up times. I have shipped site to store on numerous occasions with no problems. I do this especially when it comes to air guns and pellets. You have to have a walmart account to make the final shipping arrangements be for checkout. I hope this helps out.
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/scooterlizard/1120161433.jpg) (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/scooterlizard/media/1120161433.jpg.html)
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I went by walmart and they can not have the pellets shipped to the store.
Must be a regional thing? I've used Walmart's ship to store for pellets in both CA & OK with no issues. However I have an Amazon prime account and use them more often, 2 day free shipping on almost anything from a bar of soap to air rifles & pellets.
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The store said that some items listed on line come from another vendor and can't be shipped to walmart for pickup.
I just ordered 500 from amazon for $10,98 and free shipping. So I will get to try them out in a few days.
Thanks everyone for the help and encouragement.
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These crosman premier ultra magnum 177 at 10.5 grains are shooting much better. Maybe a .5" group at 20 yards.
Also the gun is much quieter. I don't hear the ringing after the shot. This makes me want to use a 12 grain pellet.
Also I can tell by how the pellet head goes into the barrel how the gun is going to shoot. If the head goes in snug it will be dead on. If the head is loose it is going to shoot .5" high. This makes me think that I could get a pellet gauge and sort the pellets and really tighten up the groups. I don't know where my micrometer is at the moment but it would be interesting to see how much the diameter of the heads vary. I am thinking that it is not much maybe 4 thousands at the most.
The winds are gusting here today so I only shot 20 pellets or so. I am looking forward to a nice calm day so that I can do some more testing.
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These crosman premier ultra magnum 177 at 10.5 grains are shooting much better. Maybe a .5" group at 20 yards.
Also the gun is much quieter. I don't hear the ringing after the shot. This makes me want to use a 12 grain pellet.
Also I can tell by how the pellet head goes into the barrel how the gun is going to shoot. If the head goes in snug it will be dead on. If the head is loose it is going to shoot .5" high. This makes me think that I could get a pellet gauge and sort the pellets and really tighten up the groups. I don't know where my micrometer is at the moment but it would be interesting to see how much the diameter of the heads vary. I am thinking that it is not much maybe 4 thousands at the most.
The winds are gusting here today so I only shot 20 pellets or so. I am looking forward to a nice calm day so that I can do some more testing.
Great news about the heavier pellets, Jim!
I have a box of 10.5 grain Crosman CPUP that I'm going to measure. In my PCP pistol, I get three distinct groups when using the same PoA, but each group is a tight cloverleaf. They are "accurate enough" up to about 12 yards. Anything further and the POI shift from aim-point is over a half-inch.
It might be worth exploring some of the real heavy-weight pellets. I have superb accuracy with Skenco Newboys- they weigh 13 grains. The Eun Jin 16.1... maybe you'll be one of the lucky souls they shoot accurately for. I swear I can shoot them more accurately out of my slingshots than I can out of one of my airguns.
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I have a tin of JSB Exact Monsters, 13.4gr and they actually shoot pretty well in a couple of my .177's and quiet them some. Couldn't remember what I paid for them so I went looking and took 5 minutes to make a list of 12-14 grain pellets which didn't take long as there are only 4 and the H&N Silver Points which are marked Pre-order at the moment at $15.50 a tin are the same as the below listed Beeman's with the same name which is no real surprise since H&N makes Beeman branded pellets, the H&N's just cost more.
Here's the list if you're interested:
JSB Monster 13.4gr, 400 count tin, $14.75: https://www.pyramydair.com/product/jsb-exact-monster-177-cal-13-4-grains-cylindrical-400ct?p=897 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/jsb-exact-monster-177-cal-13-4-grains-cylindrical-400ct?p=897)
Beeman Silver Arrow 11.57gr, 300 count tin, $10.95: https://www.pyramydair.com/product/beeman-silver-arrow-177-cal-11-57-grains-pointed-300ct?p=319 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/beeman-silver-arrow-177-cal-11-57-grains-pointed-300ct?p=319)
Predator Newboy 13.0 Grains, Pointed, 150ct, $7.52: https://www.pyramydair.com/product/skenco-newboy-177-cal-13-0-grains-pointed-150ct?p=634 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/skenco-newboy-177-cal-13-0-grains-pointed-150ct?p=634)
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H&N Silver Points which are marked Pre-order at the moment at $15.50 a tin are the same as the below listed Beeman's with the same name which is no real surprise since H&N makes Beeman branded pellets, the H&N's just cost more.
So if you were H&N, and putting YOUR name on something plus selling the same pellet to another company to rebrand as their own... meanwhile they are cutting your throat on pricing...
What quality run would you keep for yourself?
::)
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There are also pellets called piledrivers that are pretty expensive, but VERY heavy. Shoot hit with good force!
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Thanks for the list of pellets. Thanks for measuring the premiers. I am wanting to know how they measure.
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All of you evil enablers just convinced me to buy some .177 JSB Monsters.
While I love my 95QE in .25, a .177 would be interesting... and I must say the Cometa 220 Compact sure looks nice too!
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I'm not an enabler...honest...I just happen to have a Hatsan Model 87 QE Vortex .177 that for all intents is a Model 95 in a synthetic stock and those JSB's are just one of the pellets it shoots silly accurate as long as I do my part :)
Would look better in Turkish Walnut stock but I do like the adjustable cheek riser...just needs to be rescoped at some point.
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I ordered some jsb exact monsters 13.4 grains. I hope that these don't shoot any better than the crosman premiers. If these do shoot great they will only be used for hunting and not for plinking. So I guess that I really hope that they are extremely accurate. Maybe they will be very quiet also at the slower speed.
The experimentation continues.
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Update. I put a hammers 3x9x32 mil dot scope on the rifle and it is now shooting .5 to .75" groups at 20 yards using the 7.9gr crosman premier hollow point pellets.
So this is good enough for me to do some hunting.
Thanks for all the help.
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My Hatsans/ Webley rifles all shoot accurate, and if I do my part, they scatter shots all over the place real well.
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Another update. My hammers scope is now rattling. So I am thinking that the qe has shaken something loose inside the scope. The accuracy is now back to 1.25" or larger groups.
I stuck the hammers scope on a 1300kt and it would shoot tight groups but it would have a flyer about every 7 shots. I think that something is moving inside the scope.
I think that this rattle is a problem.
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I sighted the 95 in using its iron sights and with a good contrasting target it is shooting groups as good as when I was using a scope. Now I am thinking that the gun will shoot and the scopes have been the problem all along.
I am still not sure.
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If your scope rattles it's toast.
That said, I just went back and checked all my posts here. No mention that I got a kluncker 95 and wound up returning it. Exchanged it through PA for a Crosman Genesis I truly love.
Just sayin... every now and then you get a dud.
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I put a hammers scope on my Gamo Bone Collector Bull Whisper and it lasted 2 days. I shook one of the lens loose. I'll bet if you push on the front of back lens of that hammers, the lens will spin. I was so mad, I target practiced by shooting pellets into the scope to destroy it. It was a cheap scope and it died a cheap death. It took me a while to figure it out. I would look into the scope and have a clear sight picture. Take a shot and the entire scope view would be fuzzy. Then is would clear up and I could shoot again. The lens kept moving and would move back into place until a shoot moved it. I finally looked at the scope after on shot when the picture went way outta wack and noticed the rear lens was spun sideways. I don't think I've ever used a cheaper scope. Never again!
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I was so mad, I target practiced by shooting pellets into the scope to destroy it.
HA HA HA!
Moxy is what you got... Friggin awesome!
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I went by walmart and they can not have the pellets shipped to the store.
I have been getting most of my top end pellets at Alchemy AirWerks from his eBay store. I can't buy in big bulk, so for a tin now and then I have been going to Dave. He has some decent pricing and cheap shipping. He packs them nice too.
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Straight Shooters has a sampler of the most popular pellets, this way you are not stuck with a bunch of pellets that don't work.
http://www.straightshooters.com/straight-shooters-full-pellet-sampler-.22.html (http://www.straightshooters.com/straight-shooters-full-pellet-sampler-.22.html)
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About 40 years ago, I knew a guy that had a texas instrument 55 caluclator. The calculator would double entry when you pressed a key. He sent the calculator in for repair a couple of times and it would work correctly for a couple of weeks and then start making double entries.
He had been pushed to his limits so he takes the calculator our and shoots it a couple of times with a 44 magnum. He then writes up a great letter explaining how the calculator decided to challenge the 44 to a duel and that the deceased fought a good fight but in the end it just couldn't survive the blows from the 44. The repair guys wrote him back a letter explaining how brave it was for the calculator to even attempt to defeat a 44 and for it bravery that they were sending him a new calculator and that they hoped that this calculator would be more level headed and not try to defeat a 44. It turned out to be a great way to satisfy a customer.
Just wondering which scope you used to replace the hammers.
I think that the hatsan may shoot pretty well if I can ever get a good scope and get it mounted correctly. I ordered a couple of hammers scopes that I may just put on my 1300's, because I like the scopes. I just don't know if they will stand up on the 95QE.
I put a hammers scope on my Gamo Bone Collector Bull Whisper and it lasted 2 days. I shook one of the lens loose. I'll bet if you push on the front of back lens of that hammers, the lens will spin. I was so mad, I target practiced by shooting pellets into the scope to destroy it. It was a cheap scope and it died a cheap death. It took me a while to figure it out. I would look into the scope and have a clear sight picture. Take a shot and the entire scope view would be fuzzy. Then is would clear up and I could shoot again. The lens kept moving and would move back into place until a shoot moved it. I finally looked at the scope after on shot when the picture went way outta wack and noticed the rear lens was spun sideways. I don't think I've ever used a cheaper scope. Never again!
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Believe it or not, it ate a centerpoint scope in a few days after that. Got a Tasco and that is holding up so far....
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I put a hammers scope on my Gamo Bone Collector Bull Whisper and it lasted 2 days. I shook one of the lens loose. I'll bet if you push on the front of back lens of that hammers, the lens will spin. I was so mad, I target practiced by shooting pellets into the scope to destroy it. I was a cheap scope and it died a cheap death. It took me a while to figure it out. I would look into the scope and have a clear sight picture. Take a shot and the entire scope view would be fuzzy. Then is would clear up and I could shoot again. The lens kept moving and would move back into place until a shoot moved it. I finally looked at the scope after on shot when the picture went way outta wack and noticed the rear lens was spun sideways. I don't think I've ever used a cheaper scope. Never again!
Way to GO THERE ! And I thought I was the only ANGRY VIOLENT ONE ! My Very Best Regards to YOU - Tom
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With the mount, I think I paid around $30. Learned a lesson, though ::)
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Believe it or not, it ate a centerpoint scope in a few days after that. Got a Tasco and that is holding up so far....
Doesn't CP have a lifetime warranty?
Might be worth checking into. ;)
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Believe it or not, it ate a centerpoint scope in a few days after that. Got a Tasco and that is holding up so far....
Doesn't CP have a lifetime warranty?
Might be worth checking into. ;)
GEE Scott...this guy likes to shoot holes thru his scopes...let him have some more FUN why-don't-ya. He Desperately Needs some kind of "CLOSURE". Best Regards - Tom
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HaHaHa
Well then, by all means.... Have at it!
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I have 500 to 1000 shots on the gun using crosman premier hollow points.
I am going to check all the stock screws to see if anything is loose.
I don't mind putting another 1000 shots through the gun if that is needed to get the pellets to one hole at 20 yards.
There is just something wrong with hitting 600 yard targets with my 223 and not being able to hit a 20 yard target with my springer.
"There is just something wrong with hitting 600 yard targets with my 223 and not being able to hit a 20 yard target with my springer."
I personally believe that if you can shoot a recoiling piston gun well then you can shoot ANYTHING well!
Anywhoo......with a recoiling piston gun, my experience is that the more the fpe at the muzzle goes up relative to the weight of the gun, the more the difficulty increases when it comes to putting pellets on the aim point! While I really don't think that my old heavier fixed barrel HW77k was inherently more accurate than my lighter break barrel R9, I did feel that the HW77k was easier to get good accuracy.
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I ordered two hammers scopes. Now I will have one to use while one is being mailed in for warranty. If I average sending a scope back every two weeks it will be about $1500 per year of warranty work. I wonder how long the warranty will be honored. :)
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I just saw an add for the new Bushnell scopes , they claim you can run it over , burn it shoot it etc. and they will send you a new scope when you return a box of crushed glass and metal :o
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Gee Jim...I hope the new scopes can solve all the Problems for you. I've been following this post very carefully. What a hassle. You might want to Check out the New Scopes Real Closely before you put them on any gun. Is there any way I can help out sir ? My Best Regards - Tom
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;D The nature of springers is hard on scopes even a decent PB scope may not hold up to a powerful springer. When I first joined the forum someone had posted a video of the shot cycle of a springer. There are two components to the recoil both forward and back then the spring unwinding as it decompresses causing torque. My Gamo Whisper Fusion destroyed several scopes until I did a full home tune to tame the beast it still shoots hard but no twang and a smooth shot cycle with virtually no torque due to having de-burred every moving part including the spring ends then lubing with Ultimox #226, installing a snug spring guide and Pepsi bottle outer sleeve on the spring. Now at 25 yards I have minute of paint ball accuracy it even does well with soda cans at 25 to 30 yards shooting off hand. ;D ;D
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Tom, I can't think of anything you could do to help out but I do appreciate the offer.
My springer experience has been interesting. I got a 95 springer and after shooting it for 500 to 1000 times I noticed that the safety didn't work. I sent it back for repair and it was replaced with a 95 QE vortex which I have now. I discovered that the optimus scope was not in focus at 20 yards. So I get the hammers scope and the AO is something that I have never had on a scope. I really liked the hammers scope. I noticed that the scope screws were being shaken loose so I remove the scope and use loctite when I returned the scope to the gun. While I had the scope off I noticed that the bottom of the mount had been shaved off like you took a sharp knife to it.
I tried to get the 95 to shoot and finally gave up. I took the scope off and put it on a 1322. This is when I noticed that each time I pumped the gun the scope would rattle. I shot maybe 100 shots while the scope was on the 1322 and the gun would shoot maybe 3 pellets into the same hole at 20 yards and then it would shoot one pellet maybe an inch away.
I hope that I don't sound upset because I am not. I like having problems like this because I like to learn new things. When everything goes perfect there is no challenge to dig in and learn the ins and outs of a situation. When I get the 95 to putting pellets into the same hole at 20 yards, I am going to feel like I accomplished something.
This may be another fun thing to add to the party. I ordered 2 scopes and I received an e mail stating that my scope had been shipped. I have written back to the seller and asked them to verify that they have shipped two scopes instead of just one. This is not a big deal. The worst case is that I will have to make a complaint to paypal.
I am really blessed just to be able to have this equipment and to play with it.
Your support and encouragement has truly been a help when trying to get the accuracy from this air gun.
Thanks.
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I like the minute of paint ball accuracy. I have been thinking of getting some paint balls for targets. I bet some paint balls and golf tees would give some kids a lot of fun.
Will a pellet vaporize a paint ball or does it just knock it around?
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I like the minute of paint ball accuracy. I have been thinking of getting some paint balls for targets. I bet some paint balls and golf tees would give some kids a lot of fun.
Will a pellet vaporize a paint ball or does it just knock it around?
They make an awesome reactive target at 25 yards you can see the spray and if you put a light colored piece of cardboard behind using different colored paint balls can have fun with multi colored modern art . The golf tees make excellent secondary targets after the paint balls are all shot off the tees. ;) ;D ;D
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I have 500 to 1000 shots on the gun using crosman premier hollow points.
I am going to check all the stock screws to see if anything is loose.
I don't mind putting another 1000 shots through the gun if that is needed to get the pellets to one hole at 20 yards.
There is just something wrong with hitting 600 yard targets with my 223 and not being able to hit a 20 yard target with my springer.
"There is just something wrong with hitting 600 yard targets with my 223 and not being able to hit a 20 yard target with my springer."
I personally believe that if you can shoot a recoiling piston gun well then you can shoot ANYTHING well!
Anywhoo......with a recoiling piston gun, my experience is that the more the fpe at the muzzle goes up relative to the weight of the gun, the more the difficulty increases when it comes to putting pellets on the aim point! While I really don't think that my old heavier fixed barrel HW77k was inherently more accurate than my lighter break barrel R9, I did feel that the HW77k was easier to get good accuracy.
It would take a bunch more work to hit targets at 600 yards if your 223 fired from a open bolt. When I think of break barrel guns I think of a light weight powder burner that fires from the open bolt.
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The scope seller contacted me and said that both scopes were shipped. So this is a piece of good news.
I had thought about the modern art of paint ball shooting. I need to go by walmart today and see if I can buy a few.
I am not sure what an open bolt is but it doesn't seem like something that would be fun to shoot.
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"Open-bolt" refers to a semi- or automatic weapon that fires from an "open bolt," meaning the trigger releases the bolt, which then closes and ignites the primer, usually by a fixed firing pin. It's a rather crude but effective way of building an automatic machine gun or SMG. Some select-fire rifles shoot open-bolt in fully automatic and closed in semi-automatic mode.
Not sure I get the analogy to break barrels, though.
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I think maybe because that with the round chambered and the bolt locked the only thing moving is the firing pin and the shooter. Less movement = better accuracy. With open bolt the firing pin releases as soon as the bolt closes
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"Open-bolt" refers to a semi- or automatic weapon that fires from an "open bolt," meaning the trigger releases the bolt, which then closes and ignites the primer, usually by a fixed firing pin. It's a rather crude but effective way of building an automatic machine gun or SMG. Some select-fire rifles shoot open-bolt in fully automatic and closed in semi-automatic mode.
Not sure I get the analogy to break barrels, though.
Open bolt when you pull the trigger you get this bolt slamming home clambering a round at the same time and firing. Sort of like the piston in a break barrel. You also get sort of the same delay from when the trigger is pulled to the time the projectile leaves the barrel. So shooting a good group with a quality .223 does not help one understand what is taking place when you shoot a break barrel air rifle. Just trying to help.
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Jim, as far as the Optimus goes, you can adjust the inner lens lock-ring to change the focal point. I've had good luck with both mine, but I appear to be the minority.
I don't have an AR now, but I find grouping 5.56 rounds at 500 yards (the longest I've ever shot) far easier than hitting a ping-pong ball at 20 yards free-hand with my Hatsan, at least until recently. I'll add that learning how to shoot my springers has raised my game dramatically. If you think a 95QE is tricky, you should get a B-1 breakbarrel off Amazon. They have a horrendous trigger (mine is down to about 12 pounds now) and violent shot cycle.
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The new scopes are still holding up great. One is on a 1300kt and one is on my hatsan 95.
I am also getting better groups now. I can get a .5" group at 20 yards. This may be because the gun is shooting 890 fps with 7.9 gr pellets. This is a little low for the gun so maybe the recoil is less now than when the gun was new.
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1/2" at 20 yards with a "Jumper" is pretty darn good!
I think you and the gun are getting "broken in". 8)
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"Open-bolt" refers to a semi- or automatic weapon that fires from an "open bolt," meaning the trigger releases the bolt, which then closes and ignites the primer, usually by a fixed firing pin. It's a rather crude but effective way of building an automatic machine gun or SMG. Some select-fire rifles shoot open-bolt in fully automatic and closed in semi-automatic mode.
Not sure I get the analogy to break barrels, though.
Open bolt when you pull the trigger you get this bolt slamming home clambering a round at the same time and firing. Sort of like the piston in a break barrel. You also get sort of the same delay from when the trigger is pulled to the time the projectile leaves the barrel. So shooting a good group with a quality .223 does not help one understand what is taking place when you shoot a break barrel air rifle. Just trying to help.
Ah, yes, the lock time. Makes sense.