GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: Mtl_Biker on November 08, 2016, 02:37:29 PM
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I just sold my Feinwerkbau 602... an amazingly accurate rifle with a size/balance that worked well for me. Now I'm looking for a good PCP replacement and I'm overwhelmed and confused by the choices. And whatever I buy, it'll have to be mail-order from a dealer somewhere which doesn't allow me to actually hold the rifle prior to purchase.
Take Feinwerkbau for instance... When I look at the Cibles Canada Targets website, there are nine variants of the 800 and one 700 ALU.
And on the Krale website, when I search for air rifles for 10 meters, I get EIGHT different Feinwerkbau choices... five variants of the 800 and two of the 700.
And that's only considering Feinwerkbau. I should be investigating Walther and particularly Steyr as well (because I love my EVO-10 pistol).
Where and how could I possibly figure out which model would be best for me?
My use of this rifle would be only for 10 meter competition shooting, and of course I'd like something that meets the new ISSF regulations.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you.
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Unfortunately, part of the choice is fit. I found that some rifles and pistols fit me better than others.
Here are some thoughts:
- A wood stock is more comfortable to handle in extreme temperature conditions than a metal stock. The metal stock is colder in cold temp and hotter in hot temp than a wood stock.
- The metal stocks have more adjustment to fit the stock to you than a wood stock.
- I dot not know how carbon fiber feels vs wood and metal.
- Some people can feel the effect of a recoil absorber on a rifle, I can't.
- If you use riser blocks, a rifle/sight like on the FWB-700 with the built in adjustable risers might be worth considering.
- If you are LH, which rifles and models are available LH.
- Ignore the Field Target sub-models. Those are NOT 10m rifles.
- Ignore the running target sub-models. That is only for the specialized running target event.
Go to the TargetTalk.org web site and ask the question in the rifle section.
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Unfortunately, part of the choice is fit. I found that some rifles and pistols fit me better than others.
Here are some thoughts:
- A wood stock is more comfortable to handle in extreme temperature conditions than a metal stock. The metal stock is colder in cold temp and hotter in hot temp than a wood stock.
- The metal stocks have more adjustment to fit the stock to you than a wood stock.
- I dot not know how carbon fiber feels vs wood and metal.
- Some people can feel the effect of a recoil absorber on a rifle, I can't.
- If you use riser blocks, a rifle/sight like on the FWB-700 with the built in adjustable risers might be worth considering.
- If you are LH, which rifles and models are available LH.
- Ignore the Field Target sub-models. Those are NOT 10m rifles.
- Ignore the running target sub-models. That is only for the specialized running target event.
Go to the TargetTalk.org web site and ask the question in the rifle section.
Thank you for your thoughts!
If I'm going to buy (new) then I'd like to get the latest and greatest, so that it lasts me a long time (probably for the rest of my shooting life). Isn't the FWB 800 newer than the 700, or are they concurrent models? In FWB, I might be looking at the 800 Evolution Top. And I really should look at what Steyr has, because I'm real happy with my EVO-10 pistol. I think that an aluminum stock is the way I'll be going for this purchase, because I like the adjustability and the looks. And I have other rifles with beautiful wood stocks.
I wonder how the manufacturers will deal with the new ISSF rules... I know someone with an FWB 700 who will have to cut down the grip in order to be under the 140mm limit (from the centerline of the barrel to the bottom of the grip). I'd much rather have a rifle that meets the new rules from the manufacturer than have to start sawing down and modifying any gun I buy.
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he he
I will NEVER be able to out-shoot my old P70-jr.
And I will likely keep it until I can't shoot.
The AL stocks will make fitting easier. BUT, don't get lost in the adjustments, as it can be a rat-hole, chasing change this, then that, then back to this, then . . .
Don't forget Walther.
Since I'm not shopping, I have not kept up with the rifle models, so can't tell you about the FWB 800 vs 700.
The manufacturers will have to change the rifles to match the rules.
gud luk
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Right now I'm looking at the Feinwerkbau Evolution Top which I could get here in Canada from a superb dealer (not local, but at least in Canada). Also because I like my Steyr EVO-10 pistol so much, I'm considering the Steyr Challenge, but that one I'd have to order from Europe (not really a problem) because I can't find anyone in Canada who stocks or even sells it.
Do any members here have experience or thoughts on either of those?
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Just to add an update to this thread...
I got a brand new Feinwerkbau 800 Evolution Top three weeks ago, and I LOVE IT!!! I'm already shooting a lot better with it than I was with my FWB 602, and I think it's because of the tremendous range of adjustments possible, for the butt plate, cheek piece and of course the front and rear sights. I'm able to keep my head up straight with everything adjusted right, and with the 602 I had to bend my neck quite a bit in order to be able to get my eye aligned to the sights. This alone makes a big difference.
Kudos to Cibles Canada Targets for their superb service and support!
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Rather than bend my head over/on top of the rifle, I cant the rifle to the left.
This lets me keep my head upright, which is supposed to help your balance.
The other thing that I have on one of my rifles is an offset riser block. The sights are offset about 20mm to the left, so that I can keep my head more upright without canting the rifle as much. I am planning to put one of these offset riser blocks on my FWB also.
Glad the new rifle worked out for you. It is HARD to buy a rifle or pistol without holding it, because the fit can be so different from brand to brand.
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Rather than bend my head over/on top of the rifle, I cant the rifle to the left.
This lets me keep my head upright, which is supposed to help your balance.
The other thing that I have on one of my rifles is an offset riser block. The sights are offset about 20mm to the left, so that I can keep my head more upright without canting the rifle as much. I am planning to put one of these offset riser blocks on my FWB also.
Glad the new rifle worked out for you. It is HARD to buy a rifle or pistol without holding it, because the fit can be so different from brand to brand.
The beauty of the 800 Evolution Top (as opposed to the regular Evolution) is a lot more adjustment possibilities. For example both front and rear sights are height-adjustable AND the sights can be positioned left/right of the center line using 4 (or is it 5?) pre-drilled attachment holes. Effectively an offset riser block. Canting the rifle, at least for me, isn't necessary. I had a couple of local top shooters (including a well-known local coach) help me set up the rifle to best fit me and I'm REAL happy with it all. They also helped me with the trick of closing your eyes, shouldering the rifle and then opening your eyes to see if you have the sights aligned with your eye. It was a little bit off (just a bit) and they helped me fine-tune that so my eye now is naturally aligned with the sights when I shoulder the rifle.
Oh, and what I did when buying the rifle, was drive over 2 hours (also in a snow storm) to Ottawa to visit the dealer so that I could actually hold the rifle before buying. Then when I got home, I made the mistake of adjusting everything so that it would feel the way I was used to with my FWB 602. And with the 602, very few adjustments were possible (and I didn't have an offset riser block). So I was actually not in the most comfortable body/neck position with it until those guys helped me make more proper adjustments.
Now I just have to practice, practice and more practice.
Cheers!
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It was good that you got some people that know what they are doing to help you setup the rifle. That is one of the problems for those without access to coaches. My AR coach setup my FWB-P70-jr. And like you, he did it different than how I had set it up.
Rifle hold and sight positioning can change over time and with training.
I used to lower my head to the stock, after coaching, I position the rifle higher on my shoulder and cant it over to the left. It took a while to get used to the new hold, but once I got used to it, I liked it much better than my old hold.
gud luk with the new toy :-)
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If you do not have an AR shooting jacket, go to Home Depot (or other hardware store) and get yourself a back belt. The back belt is NOT competition legal, but it will help to protect your lower back when you shoot at home. I use one whenever I shoot 10m AR.
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If you do not have an AR shooting jacket, go to Home Depot (or other hardware store) and get yourself a back belt. The back belt is NOT competition legal, but it will help to protect your lower back when you shoot at home. I use one whenever I shoot 10m AR.
Thank you. I'll check that out. But pardon my ignorance/inexperience, but protect my back from what? It's not like there's any heavy lifting involved. Is it because of the bit of a "twist" the back is subjected to when in correct position? How would a back belt help with that? I had been under the impression that a shooting jacket was used to make you into a more rigid platform, but your reply implies that it's also somehow going to protect your back? Could you please elaborate?
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Holding an 11 pound target rifle in the shooting stance can be hard on the lower back. The twisting of the back, to keep the feet and hips pointed towards the target, just makes it worse. Having said that, setting up in the 'proper' stance reduces the strain on the body, because you are using minimal muscles to support the rifle, while in the stance.
From what I have been reading, it is the lower back that is most at risk of injury. This is because that is where the back bends and twists. And because of that, there seems to be a movement towards NOT twisting the back, to reduce the back strain and injury for rifle shooters.
You are correct, the AR shooting jacket is primarily to stiffen and stabilize the upper body. However, the jacket also provides back support by being stiff from the upper back down to the upper hip. Thus you are not relying completely on muscle to support your back.
The back belt concentrates the support to the most vulnerable part of the back, the lower back. The back belt is also a LOT CHEAPER than an AR shooing jacket. That is especially applicable in my case because my waist line has not been stable :-( I would have needed several $$$ shooting jackets for my various waist sizes. And being primarily an AP shooter, I don't want to spend a large amount of $$$ on my AR gear. Rather than spend a lot of $$$$ on shooting jackets+pants+shoes, I would rather upgrade my AP and drop AR. So I shoot AR on the cheap.
The older you are (like me), the more you need to protect the lower back. Especially if it is already injured, like mine is. Because of that, I do not twist my back. I stand with an open stance, feet and hip pointed slightly to the left of the target. This allows me to keep my shoulder, hip and feet in alignment, and not twist my back. Though setting up in the open stance is more difficult, as you can't simply align your feet and hip to the target. I have to align to an imaginary point X degrees or Y feet to the left of the target.
BTW, of the entire shooting outfit (jacket, pants and shoes), you get the most points increase from the jacket.
I forgot if you were advised to get the book "Ways of the rifle" or "Air Rifle Shooting." I have both, and if you don't have a coach, they are probably the next best thing. I wish I had the books when I first started 10m AR. Only one book, get "Air Rifle Shooting," as it is more specific to AR.
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ac12... thank you again for all the suggestions.
I'll pick up a back belt to give it a try, as it's really not expensive and might come in handy for other than shooting.
I just searched Amazon Books for those two books you suggested and neither one turned up. Could you please give me a bit more info about them, such as author?
By the way, my rifle is lighter than that... 4kg (about 8.8 lbs). And I'm actually thinking of adding some weight to it. My last 10m rifle (FWB 602) was heavier and the lightness of this one is taking some getting used to.
Cheers!
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Interesting that your rifle is so much lighter. I figured that all full size 10m rifles would be close to the max regulation weight, which was/is approx 11 pounds.
My AR coach told me that "weight is your friend." The weight helps to dampen out body movement, so that it is easier to shoot accurately a heavy target rifle than a light sportster.
I got my books from Pilkington.
http://pilkguns.com/books.shtml (http://pilkguns.com/books.shtml)
Maybe Amazon does not list it, because I think it is printed in Germany.
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Interesting that your rifle is so much lighter. I figured that all full size 10m rifles would be close to the max regulation weight, which was/is approx 11 pounds.
My AR coach told me that "weight is your friend." The weight helps to dampen out body movement, so that it is easier to shoot accurately a heavy target rifle than a light sportster.
I got my books from Pilkington.
http://pilkguns.com/books.shtml (http://pilkguns.com/books.shtml)
Maybe Amazon does not list it, because I think it is printed in Germany.
I picked up a back belt this morning and it does seem to make a (slight) difference. But I also bought some wheel balancing weights and I placed 9.5 oz of them within the palm rest on the rifle. Doesn't make the rifle much heavier (just over half a pound) but it seems to have changed the balance very much for the better. I've now shot 3 full matches with it this way and there is a definite improvement. Since there's a snow storm going on here (and also since my business is closed on Mondays) I'm devoting the day to shooting and practicing. :)
Cheers!
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Yes adjusting the balance of the rifle is tricky, as it comes down to how the rifle feels and behaves in your hand, and how you prefer it.
I have my 10m ARs slightly muzzle heavy, using muzzle/barrel weights. That dampens my wobbles better than being balanced over my left/supporting hand, which would be a neutral balance.