GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: bald1 on November 04, 2016, 05:21:03 PM
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I just joined GTA recently and noted in my intro post that I had dusted off an old Webley Hawk MKIII .177 that I bought at Beeman's in San Rafeal back in 1978. It was listed in the catalog that year for $76.95 and boasted specs of 6.5 lbs weight, 17 1/8" barrel, 41" OAL, and performance of 8.07 fpe and 650 fps with 8.6g grain pellets. Certainly the Beeman Webley Ospry sidelever cocking fixed barrel rifle, especially the "supertarget" model with heavier barrel, walnut stock, and Anschutz micrometer sights were significantly more refined at $128.98 and $199.98 respectively available that same year. I remember handling in the showroom and lusting after both the FWB 300S and 124 but these were simply out of the question for a young naval officer with a family to support.
(https://i.imgur.com/LJ2RLkt.jpg)
I hadn't used it in over 30 years. The Beeman 2-7x20 3/4" tube scope had a bent adjustment bell and locked elevation adjustment so it was trashed and needed replacement. While scoping out options I found a few posts around the net about the old MKIII. None were very complimentary which puzzled me somewhat. I recall being rather pleased with the performance back in the mid '70s and used it out and beyond 35 yards successfully. When pulling it out I even found a small stash of ammo: Mount Star Jet radiused flathead 8.2g, Beeman Silver Jet Magnum Pointed 8.39g, and Beeman H&N Match wadcutter 8.18g pellets. Wish manufacturers would go back to the styrofoam square packaging Beeman used back then.
(https://i.imgur.com/d3rltCv.jpg)
The old Webley, fitted with a new UTG 3-9x32AO MilDot Hunter 1" tube scope rekindled my airgun desires and I soon added a Crosman P1322 carbine and Gamo ACCU22 rifle. It has been giving me dime sized 10 shot groups at 10m with most all pellets I've tried.
Anyone else have memories or even still have a Webley Hawk MKIII .177? Were they really that bad and if so must I have an execeptional sample? Or being basically a novice just satisfied with the mediocre? LOL
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I have one in .177 .My first barrel bender air gun. It can just manage 730fps with many of the lighter pellets. Accurate enough for most sporting uses. I got mine at about the same time from Beemans. The story was that a shipment for Iran was halted due to the upset in that country at that time. They were then offered to us at a good price.
n.h.schmidt
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n.h.
Appreciate your post. I haven't chroned mine but found your 730fps interesting. Just how light were the pellets?
And as for Iran, one of the posts I found when searching included this verbage:
"The HAWK MarkIII was being used by the Iranian army for marksmanship training. This was during the reign of the Shah before he was deposed and the Ayatollah replaced him as ruler. The Shah left Iran on 16 Jan 1979. At that point the contract IRAN had with Webley for these air rifles was curtailed and Webley was left holding a bag full of the HAWK MarkIII rifles. Apparently the lot or most of it was sold to a US gun distributor/dealer who advertised them in the Shotgun News for $99.00."
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Don't have one of my own to share experiences with, but just wanted to say thanks for the post and the pics. I love the "blast from the past" posts. I grew up in the '70's and shared a Benjamin 347 with my older brother. Wish I still had it. Can still picture every inch of it in my memory, down to the crack in the wrist my Dad repaired.
Scotty
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I'd be proud to have a classic like that. I still think it's a sweet looking rifle, comparable to an R7.
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Some chrony results for the old girl. Original spring and PTFE piston rings that have been sitting for ~35 years.
(https://i.imgur.com/fOXjcD4.jpg)
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I will have to get mine down from the rack and set up the crono again. I know it is faster than my B3-1 under lever 177 rifles. I can get 690 with one a 700 with the other. I do not use the tin based pellets for this testing. I have a notebook with the figures and pellet types used.
I will get it out and provide better information. The fit of the barrel block in the fork is free to slide side to side with no friction . This shouldn't work well but mine shoots fine. It locks up fine .
n.h.schmidt
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h.n.s,
Would love to see your results. Mine obviously are below the factory spec of 650 fps w/ 8.6gr. But I tend to attribute that to the old seals. If yours also are original and 35-40 years old, well i may have to rethink things. :)
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i got an old webley vulcan carbine MK11 i think, with the shorty 9 inch barrel. mine is very consistent with the CP lites at 756 fps +-4. i did not thought it was a powerhouse and it has never lacked power for the tasks at hand. My avg is of a 30 shot string
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I have a Webley Vulcan that I bought from Beeman around that same time. I looks like the same rifle and the same stock. Mine is marked 'Beeman', so it is a standard Beeman catalog item. It still shoots well with the original seals, but I do store it with the barrel slightly bent down to relieve the pressure on the breach seal. I have not shot it over a chronograph.
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...shoots well with the original seals, but I do store it with the barrel slightly bent down to relieve the pressure on the breach seal.
I was clueless and stored mine with the barrel locked up all these decades. :(
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...shoots well with the original seals, but I do store it with the barrel slightly bent down to relieve the pressure on the breach seal.
I was clueless and stored mine with the barrel locked up all these decades. :(
My rifles that have an easy to replace breach seal, I store with the barrel locked, but the Webley seal on my Vulcan seems to be an odd size, so I wanted it to last as long as possible. It looks as though my fear was unfounded as yours has lasted all this time.
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Mine has not been apart . I don't know where a new breach seal can be found. It's mounted different than any other seal I have seen. I looked at my notebook. I have to revise down the speed I was getting. These are averages
Daisy WC 700fps at 14 feet 655 at 33 feet
Gamo Match 656 at 33 feet
Crosman Destroyer 641 at 33 feet
That's it all I recorded.
I will set up the crono and get you guys more readings. It is slower than I remembered
n.h.schmidt
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The old bracketed by the new ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/bsQbiSl.jpg)
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I fired my Hawk over the pro chrono last night. I have some new speeds. All are the avreage
Jsb exact 8.44 RN 660mv
Rws Hobby 7grs 739mv
Crosman Premier 10.5gr 546mv
I know its not popular today but I have been using rws chamber oil in the Hawks chamber. No problems .
n.h.schmidt
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n.h.s,
Appreciate the new data. Certainly makes my old gal look tired in comparison.
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Do you use any chamber oil? It is easily possible that simply shooting more will perk it up. Otherwise maybe the piston seal is not so good. I have a old Diana recoiless match gun that the seals were replaced at about that time .The seals crumbled about 15 years later. I only recently found new seals to replace them with. That gun laid on the basement floor for about 20 years. It suffered for it too.
n.h.schmidt
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No chamber oil on hand. Just Crosman pellgunoil. Would that work?
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Bob
Do not use the pellgun oil as it is petroleum based and could cause detonations when it ignites from the heat of compression just as a diesel engine does when running. It can be dangerous if not seriously hurt you or someone else.
Instead you need some silicone based oil to put two or three drops in the compression chamber with the barrel broke open but not cocked and let it sit standing on the but pad in a corner for 15 minutes or so to drain into the chamber completely. If there is a hobby shop in your area that sell RC cars they would have some silicone shock oil in 50 or 100 weight that would be acceptable to use or some divers silicone oil. If you have an industrial supply house you may find some silicone oil there as well. its needs to be a non petroleum based oil so it has a very high flash point to help prevent detonations. The silicone oil will diesel or detonate as well but not with the intensity that petroleum oils will.
Mike
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Thanks Mike. I'll see what I can find.
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Bob
Good luck in your search for some silicone oil and keep us informed of your results when you oil the chamber.
Mike
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Here is some silicone oil that I found.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Traxxas-Silicone-Dampener-Oil-1666-/331311263792?hash=item4d23b0b030:g:E9gAAOSwDk5UCgZV (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Traxxas-Silicone-Dampener-Oil-1666-/331311263792?hash=item4d23b0b030:g:E9gAAOSwDk5UCgZV)
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Here is some silicone oil that I found.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Traxxas-Silicone-Dampener-Oil-1666-/331311263792?hash=item4d23b0b030:g:E9gAAOSwDk5UCgZV (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Traxxas-Silicone-Dampener-Oil-1666-/331311263792?hash=item4d23b0b030:g:E9gAAOSwDk5UCgZV)
Thanks! Ordered! That's cheaper than amazon.
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Good advice abut the oil.
n.h.schmidt
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just been given a MK1 hawk in a bit of a state and only has the .177 barrel which was seized solid in the block but now comes out fine
also got a Diana 25 again in bad shape
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just been given a MK1 hawk in a bit of a state and only has the .177 barrel which was seized solid in the block but now comes out fine also got a Diana 25 again in bad shape
Restoring those should prove interesting. If I'm not mistaken the Hawk MKI is quite a bit different from the MKII and MKIII The later two sharing a lot in common I believe.
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The Traxxas silicon oil is being delivered today. We'll see if that helps the old twin copper impregnated PTFE piston rings or not.
Any suggestions to increase the efficacy would be welcome. As it stands I plan on just a couple drops down the transfer port with the rifle standing on it's butt with the barrel unlocked leaving the port exposed. Will let it sit like that overnight.
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You may want to cycle the barrel about half to 3/4 the way open but not far enough to actually cock and latch it after putting the oil in the port to help spread it on the entire wall of the chamber and then let sit overnight with the barrel broke open.
Mike
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You may want to cycle the barrel about half to 3/4 the way open but not far enough to actually cock and latch it after putting the oil in the port to help spread it on the entire wall of the chamber and then let sit overnight with the barrel broke open.
Thanks Mike, I'll do that.
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Sadly no chronograph work today to see if the silicon oil has had any impact as the weather here has gone south. Freezing temps, high winds, and 3-5 inches of snow incoming.
At least no dieseling or smoking when shooting post silicon treatment downstairs at 10m.
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My Hawk is doesn't smoke either. Some of my higher powered guns do though. I once had a B25 shoot a Beeman silverjet 1900+ fps over the crono. Didn't do that again. Loud too.
n.h.schmidt
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In addition to the old stash of Beeman bought pellets I pictured on the first page, I found a rectangular tube of Crosman Lubricated "Ashcan" SuperPells. A search of the web only provided weights for the .22 variety and nada for the .177. Took out a digital scale, calibrated it, and tossed 10 of the Ashcans on it. Mind you they are all heavily oxidized. They came in a at 8.0 grains each. Interesting....
Here are the weights of the "vintage" .177 pellets that had been salted away with the Hawk:
Crosman Lubricated "Ashcan" Super Pell 8.0
Beeman H&N Match Wadcutter 8.18
Mount Star Jet Radiused Flathead 8.2
Beeman Silver Jet Magnum Pointed 8.39
h.n.schmidt,
That 1900+ fps had to be with a tank powered rifle. Yowser!
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I did fire more (a few) with decreasing speeds after that. All the way down to 800 fps. The silverjets were my first venture into better quality pellets. I became a believer when I used them in my Silver Streak for the first time. My accuracy went from about 1-1.5" 25ft groups with the orginal Sherridan pellets to about a 1/4" group with the silverjets.We didn't have the internet and without a gun shop interested in pellet guns, selection of pellets was skimpy.. Now There is more to say the least. Almost too much. You can't try them all. I have found JSBs hard to beat though. I do want to find a lead free pellet that works well .I have some older Daisy lead free pellets. Very fast but will tumble in some guns. Almost impossible to chamber in the plastic bolt guns like a 880 or 760. Ok to get loaded in the barrel breakers though.
n.h.schmidt
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Finally got some decent weather and sunshine (for awhile) to enable setting up the chronograph in the backyard. Wanted to see what impact the silicon oil has had on the piston seals. Here's what we got:
(https://i.imgur.com/DMwKTLt.jpg)
Looks like some improvement if the Benjamin HPs are any indication. Earlier runs before the seal treatment were in the 590 fps range.
Thanks to those who suggested the silicon oil treatment with the barrel left at 90 degrees overnight. It has brought the old girl back! :)
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Bill
Glad to see it helped it pick up some power after oiling the chamber.
mike
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There is an old Webley revolver in a drawer upstairs in my house that shoots .38 S&W, is it from the same company that made these air rifles?
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Yup, that would be the same company, just likely from an earlier time in their history. I am not sure it's proper to refer to powder-burner forums here. Just PM me if you'd like. ;)
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My 1978 .177 Webley Mark III has been sitting in its original packaging in my friend's garage since it was purchased. It shows no signs of ever having been shot.
I'm ready to take it out. After all this neglect, is there some preparation I should do to wake it up before I shoot it?
Or, should I leave it alone and continue with just my RWS-45 in .177 caliber? The RWS weighs a ton and is sadly lacking in the stopping power I need during squirrel season in Colorado. I suppose the Webley would be no stronger.