GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Job on November 01, 2016, 02:59:11 PM
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No comment :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcERF8vxwKU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcERF8vxwKU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y22GIR-ZeE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y22GIR-ZeE)
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I am not surprised not even a little bit.
But it's kind of strange to see first hand the lack of respect there is for someone else's hard work.
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:o :o No Comment !!!!
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Why does this surprise anybody? Anybody with a lathe and vertical or end mill can machine stuff... Buy one of the real thing, take it apart, fabricate the bits-n-pieces and odds-n-ends... make tiny changers in visual appearance and you have a new gun.
I gave up a long time ago since I've seen so much software pirated. Given how few man-hours it takes to make an airgun versus how many man-hours it takes to develop software, I guess my sense of scale is skewed :(
Still, this is nasty piracy, and just goes to show how low some folks can be.
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That's really sad to see. Stealing is a major abominable offense that is easily avoidable too. The scary part is the safety issues with these homemade guns. This will hurt all of us airgunners in some form long-term.
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That's really sad to see. Stealing is a major abominable offense that is easily avoidable too. The scary part is the safety issues with these homemade guns. This will hurt all of us airgunners in some form long-term.
I agree with part of this, but not all.
Safety issues? Certainly. However, the parts are being milled from billet and chances are nobody will get hurt. Yes they are home-made and they are also reproductions to the thousandth of the inch, so dimensions are the same. Unless exotic materials are being used in the stock Impact (which I doubt), it is what it is. It also offers those who would otherwise not get an airgun to use and enjoy them... and grow both the sport and knowledge. I am not condoning this by any means, as this is thievery plain and simple.
But I do not see this hurting all of us airgunners in the long run. Just look at how many people own Chinese airguns that are replicas of existing and considerably finer airguns.
I'll add I do not like spending top-dollar for an air-rifle that needs tuning and adjustment right from the factory in order to be usable. If some of this bottom-feeder competition forces the good manufacturers to step it up, then so be it.
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Replica and such has no benefit to the manufacturing of the real deal. There is no data that support that at all, in fact to the contrary you'll find that in order to stay competitive (if it was a real market share competition) the original would lower their standards in order to compete on price. This happens over and and over, and more so these days were speed to market is key.
As far as safety and such goes, I don't necessary believe they are any worse or better than the original...on paper, however the copyist have no incentive as far as reputation goes, so cutting corners, or leave something out to save on complexity is something the buying public have no control over. So if you buy one of these, it's on your head, not anyone else.
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Now I will say something many won't like, copying is not stealing.
The original gun was not designed without copying the works of others. The tires on my car would not exist without Ugg the caveman "stealing" the wheel from Mugg.
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Now I will say something many won't like, copying is not stealing.
The original gun was not designed without copying the works of others. The tires on my car would not exist without Ugg the caveman "stealing" the wheel from Mugg.
I heard Mugg hired Thug the lawyer to take care of Ugg.
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Now I will say something many won't like, copying is not stealing.
The original gun was not designed without copying the works of others. The tires on my car would not exist without Ugg the caveman "stealing" the wheel from Mugg.
Let's do something better, let's define stealing shall we.
Webster: And since it's unfair to expect anyone to check, here is the link: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steal (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steal)
: to take (something that does not belong to you) in a way that is wrong or illegal
: to take (something that you are not supposed to have) without asking for permission
: to wrongly take and use (another person's idea, words, etc.)
By those, it's theft pure and simple, you copying someone else's work, not applying the learnt knowledge, it's not even reverse engineering.
Also the progress of technology as in engineering principles, like the wheel, I dont see Mugg's stone wheels on your car....only the applied principle of the wheel, which isnt theft but applied knowledge. None of which these guys in Indonesia are doing.
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Now I will say something many won't like, copying is not stealing.
The original gun was not designed without copying the works of others. The tires on my car would not exist without Ugg the caveman "stealing" the wheel from Mugg.
Let's do something better, let's define stealing shall we.
Webster:
: to take (something that does not belong to you) in a way that is wrong or illegal
: to take (something that you are not supposed to have) without asking for permission
: to wrongly take and use (another person's idea, words, etc.)
By those, it's theft pure and simple, you copying someone else's work, not applying the learnt knowledge, it's not even reverse engineering.
Also the progress of technology as in engineering principles, like the wheel, I dont see Mugg's stone wheels on your car....only the applied principle of the wheel, which isnt theft but applied knowledge. None of which these guys in Indonesia are doing.
By adding parenthetical quotes to webster's you destroy the entire point of quoting it. Now instead of websters it is you defining the words in a way you see fit.
Taking requires depriving someone of something. Making a copy does not
You are splitting hairs on that wheel. Either we all owe Muggs descendants for the wheel or not. Clearly you agree we do not.
Indonesia is a developing nation, this is what all developing nations do. Ever seen a Sam Adam's bottle?
The point of that picture of him is that his shirt was made on a copied loom. The design was exactly copied, not "applying learned knowledge". As an up and coming nation that is what we did.
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;) ;D Patents and copyrights are there to protect what we know as intellectual property. and copying someone else's ideas and calling it your design if not stealing is down right wrong. For arguments sake lets say that you developed an amazing and very unique widget that would save millions of man dollars in the manufacturing process of windshield wiper blades . Then when you apply for the patent someone who has seen your idea sells it to the equipment manufacturer foe $10,000 and if it had been patented by you would have given you several millions in royalties over 10 years. How would you feel about the misappropriation of your intellectual property ?
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So just for grins, I asked how much..
$715 US dollars..
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By adding parenthetical quotes to webster's you destroy the entire point of quoting it. Now instead of websters it is you defining the words in a way you see fit.
Taking requires depriving someone of something. Making a copy does not
You are splitting hairs on that wheel. Either we all owe Muggs descendants for the wheel or not. Clearly you agree we do not.
Indonesia is a developing nation, this is what all developing nations do. Ever seen a Sam Adam's bottle?
The point of that picture of him is that his shirt was made on a copied loom. The design was exactly copied, not "applying learned knowledge". As an up and coming nation that is what we did.
I dont know how you can equate what amounts to industrial espionage to anything but theft.
When it comes to the wheel we do agree that learned engineering principles can be applied without moral implications. Please keep in mind, that just cause you cannot enforce consequences to wrongdoing, doesn't make it right. Besides engineering application vs. wearable graphics (shirt example) are hugely different (scope & application) in that one is an assembly of parts for a specific functional whole, where as the other is someones artwork/picture which is under intellectual law, so if it applies, also wrong.
For instance, someone stealing ideas from Intel will be persecuted differently than someone producing bootlegged Pink Floyd t-shirts.
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Industrial espionage is not the same thing either. That requires inside knowledge. Again theft requires depriving the owner of something. No copy can ever be theft, no matter how much some want to conflate the two.
I would not be surprised if this is simply a copy of the appearance and not the function. Mind you the gun this is a claimed copy of copied the look and feel of a firearm. Which is not the first airgun to copy that firearm either.
For $715 I sure hope they fixed the issue with the probe grub screw :P Perhaps they have a better fix than a different screw.
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No different than The Priest in my opinion but when I said that everyone jumped all over me. Go figure
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Its a little more blatant than the priest, not by much though.
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If they made their own gun based on their own unique concepts then they could hold their heads high and be proud. It's ok in my book to look at other designs for inspirational purposes in an effort to come up with your own. It doesn't appear like that is what they're doing to me in the videos, but I could be wrong. They are a third world country and are probably doing the best they can do which is to copy/steal from the advanced countries.
I'm curious as to what type of barrels will be used in these guns. I highly doubt it will be an FX barrel. My guess is some sort of Chinese Marauder type barrel. No guessing or worries with what you'll get with the WARP. ;)
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Watched a tv documentary week ago in Columbia these guys were making real guns from near nothing way out in the boonies, they were making 45 kimber clones and you could not see the difference other than one had a serial number, took him 5 months to make one and was paid 115 bucks but by the time it reached its destination it was in the thousands because it was a untraceable gun. Its a shame but what can you do about a 3rd world country. David
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What, do you mean that's NOT the newest FX production facility in the video? It would have explained the quality challenges they've had lately ;D
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I watched a video of a guy taking a shovel and making an AK receiver by careful folding and cutting.... The bottom line is there are some really good designs out there. The FX Impact is well-thought-out and very recognizable... and also has a modular design, thus is easy to replicate. Remove some of the fiddly bits (all the adjustments) and maybe they feel their gun isn't outright plagiarism...
Since Malaysia is somewhere between third- and first-world (no offense to anybody who lives there), it is pretty clear these guys are doing what they can with what is perceived to be one of the best designs in airgunning.
Again, not condoning it. And I'll say the Priest is less of a copy/paste than these by a long shot. The Priest has a side-charging bolt, not a sidelever.
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Watched a tv documentary week ago in Columbia these guys were making real guns from near nothing way out in the boonies, they were making 45 kimber clones and you could not see the difference other than one had a serial number, took him 5 months to make one and was paid 115 bucks but by the time it reached its destination it was in the thousands because it was a untraceable gun. Its a shame but what can you do about a 3rd world country. David
They have been doing the same thing in Afghanistan for decades.
A friend is an avid collector of such guns.
I have held in my hands a hand built copy of a p08 Luger, and a hand built copy of a 1911.
Not the best quality, but dude, ITS HAND MADE FROM SCRATCH, and don't bet it won't shoot!
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So I was seriously contemplating getting something like a warP but I simply CANNOT get over the fact that to me it looks EXACTLY like an AR-15 pistol/carbine. Ouch. Go ahead and ban me for the truth.
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What, do you mean that's NOT the newest FX production facility in the video? It would have explained the quality challenges they've had lately ;D
LMBO :O AoA WHERE IS MY REPLACEMENT SCREW?
Seriously, you get what you pay for and sometime much more. All manufactures know they are going to get knocked off eventually. Look at what happened to Edgun. Cloned by the East and West.
In the final analysis, quality and useful innovation prevail.
Tom
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So I was seriously contemplating getting something like a warP but I simply CANNOT get over the fact that to me it looks EXACTLY like an AR-15 pistol/carbine. Ouch. Go ahead and ban me for the truth.
So anyway, that was a "gotcha" sort of example. I seriously AM contemplating getting the warP but I'm not digging the marketing strategy being employed here and the other thread.
Save comments for what the guys in this thread's opening post are doing. I understand similar traits compared to blatant copying and there exists a fine line, but I stand by my quote above as it holds true. Yet I am not accusing warP of being a "copy". I'm just trying to open some eyes.
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What, do you mean that's NOT the newest FX production facility in the video? It would have explained the quality challenges they've had lately ;D
LMBO :O AoA WHERE IS MY REPLACEMENT SCREW?
Seriously, you get what you pay for and sometime much more. All manufactures know they are going to get knocked off eventually. Look at what happened to Edgun. Cloned by the East and West.
In the final analysis, quality and useful innovation prevail.
Tom
I'll add to that- form follows function as well. Throw in some specs and design criteria, then see how many ideas end up looking alike. I've seen it in everything from exercise equipment to tables saws, lawnmowers to cars, and certainlty in airguns and powderburners. There's only so many ways you can throw some components together before you start having designs start looking the same. Case in point- the Impact versus the Priest. The Priest is more low-slung with a lower profile and has a side-bolt on the left side versus a sidelever on the right. Sure they look alike to a point, much like most break-barrel springers look alike, most mid-size 4 door sedans look alike, and most radial arm saws look alike.
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This is a good read!! Out of my league for me to respond on. Many guns made not much room for creating one that's different. Safety is the most important issue in any product.
Take care Fellas
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So I was seriously contemplating getting something like a warP but I simply CANNOT get over the fact that to me it looks EXACTLY like an AR-15 pistol/carbine. Ouch. Go ahead and ban me for the truth.
While it's black, tubular shaped, and has a pistol grip, it reminds me more of a keltec sub2000.
What if it does look like one?
That doesn't make it one.
A friend had a kitcar that looked like a Lamborghini, on a vw chassis.
Did that make it a lambo?
No. it just kinda looked like one.
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So I was seriously contemplating getting something like a warP but I simply CANNOT get over the fact that to me it looks EXACTLY like an AR-15 pistol/carbine. Ouch. Go ahead and ban me for the truth.
So anyway, that was a "gotcha" sort of example. I seriously AM contemplating getting the warP but I'm not digging the marketing strategy being employed here and the other thread.
Save comments for what the guys in this thread's opening post are doing. I understand similar traits compared to blatant copying and there exists a fine line, but I stand by my quote above as it holds true. Yet I am not accusing warP of being a "copy". I'm just trying to open some eyes.
The AR-15 has been copied to death by firearms manufacturers, it only serves to make the platform stronger (more popular). Heck, I've seen 12ga built on the AR. My point is there is nothing wrong with adopting the ergonomics and furniture for an airgun, especially when they are done right. I highly doubt Eugene Stoner is rolling in his grave, more likely he's smiling like a cheshire cat.
I doubt the FXi is causing FX any loss of sleep. :)
Tom
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What, do you mean that's NOT the newest FX production facility in the video? It would have explained the quality challenges they've had lately ;D
LMBO :O AoA WHERE IS MY REPLACEMENT SCREW?
Seriously, you get what you pay for and sometime much more. All manufactures know they are going to get knocked off eventually. Look at what happened to Edgun. Cloned by the East and West.
In the final analysis, quality and useful innovation prevail.
Tom
I'll add to that- form follows function as well. Throw in some specs and design criteria, then see how many ideas end up looking alike. I've seen it in everything from exercise equipment to tables saws, lawnmowers to cars, and certainlty in airguns and powderburners. There's only so many ways you can throw some components together before you start having designs start looking the same. Case in point- the Impact versus the Priest. The Priest is more low-slung with a lower profile and has a side-bolt on the left side versus a sidelever on the right. Sure they look alike to a point, much like most break-barrel springers look alike, most mid-size 4 door sedans look alike, and most radial arm saws look alike.
Yeah, every bottled bullpup is going to look darn similar.
Some people in the other thread basically claimed that made one the clone of the other, never mind that they have mechanical differences.
I bet they both have a valve opened by a mass hitting a poppet too!
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Yeah fellas, don't beat me up. As I stated, I'm TOTALLY fine with the looks of the warP and in fact, LOVE the fact it looks AR-ish. No need to defend the product, I was just giving an example of what oldpro is doing with regard to the Priest.
Watching the posts in the OP in this thread I find myself wanting to see their machine shop setup. More than mere hand tools used there, for sure. I wonder if they have any cnc's or if it's all manual mills and lathes. It's scary how easily and quickly a product can be copied or cloned. Hard for manufacturers to bring something new to the market knowing it WILL be copied and ripped off.
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Of course I see no problem copying a product for your own use (so long as you've originally purchased it and not like you copy for yourself a loaned or bought and returned but copied product) , but the second that person or company begin to PROFIT from it is where a line is crossed. The only thing a country can do to stop it is by stopping importation of said product. Good luck with that though as not every customs official is savvy to what's a clone vs not. But America, imo, didn't need to shoot itself in the leg by the likes of NAFTA. It's a fact that it made it so much easier for American products to be copied/stolen.
ETA: underlined comment.
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America is good at banning import of things.
We no longer can get
$200 norinco 1911's
$49 sks's &
$400 polytech m14's from china,
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All this reminds me of the Trijicon vs China lawsuit, where China copied the ACOG and blatantly advertised it as "just as good as." Trijicon won the suit, but pretty much all that happened was a "Cease and Desist" order was issued and they stopped importation of the Chinese made ones. It's sad that things like reverse engineering and other forms of copying happen, especially from countries that are supposed to be "First World" and should have their own R&D capabilities," but the fact is it happens. Sometimes for the better, but usually for the worse.
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Some people make good money doing reverse engineering.
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America is good at banning import of things.
We no longer can get
$200 norinco 1911's
$49 sks's &
$400 polytech m14's from china,
But we can get Chinese made...EVERYTHING.
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All this reminds me of the Trijicon vs China lawsuit, where China copied the ACOG and blatantly advertised it as "just as good as." Trijicon won the suit, but pretty much all that happened was a "Cease and Desist" order was issued and they stopped importation of the Chinese made ones. It's sad that things like reverse engineering and other forms of copying happen, especially from countries that are supposed to be "First World" and should have their own R&D capabilities," but the fact is it happens. Sometimes for the better, but usually for the worse.
I can say this, I have owned real eotech holosights, (they use a laser)
And knockoffs (eotech branding, but use an LED instead of a laser) the build quality was good, but not the same as eotech.
I have used real Trigicon acog's and the clones.
They can be broken down into red dots, and 3-4x models.
The dot sight ones only have the profile of a acog, but a red dot internals.
The 4x acog clone other than not having a tritium insert is a heck of a deal.
Of the 3 I have owned, The optics are nitrogen sealed, shock proof, etched glass reticle, and very clear.
Would I use a clone scope on a rifle going into a war zone, no.
But for a range toy, or a truck gun, it's 1/10 the price of a real one, and that buys a lot of ammo...
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Some people make good money doing reverse engineering.
The Russians & Chinese have been doing that for decades.
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Some people make good money doing reverse engineering.
The Russians & Chinese have been doing that for decades.
And for a great many Americans.
Until recently pretty much all software interoperability was based on reverse engineering. I have a friend that used to work for a company that did nuclear reactor inspections, a lot of customized stuff was needed and quite frequently they had to reverse engineer the only existing tool.
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Of course I see no problem copying a product for your own use (so long as you've originally purchased it and not like you copy for yourself a loaned or bought and returned but copied product) , but the second that person or company begin to PROFIT from it is where a line is crossed. The only thing a country can do to stop it is by stopping importation of said product. Good luck with that though as not every customs official is savvy to what's a clone vs not. But America, imo, didn't need to shoot itself in the leg by the likes of NAFTA. It's a fact that it made it so much easier for American products to be copied/stolen.
ETA: underlined comment.
This is and excellent statement above and Being copied is flattery really but when you cross that line and start selling that copy then thats where I personally have a problem and I dont mind saying so. Make copies for yourself and use it I think thats cool actually, of course These are all JUST MY OPINIONS and I mean no disrespect to anyone Im simply telling you how I feel.
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The legal fact is that reverse engineering and copying of a product, in the absence of a patent, is perfectly legal and even to be encouraged because such work increases competition in the product, lowers prices, and may result in improvement of the product (if you have ever torn down a product you may have seen ways to improve it or learned lessons that apply in other designs).
It may not be perfectly morally acceptable, but if you want to protect your products from copying or imitation, better get a patent. Commerce is amoral or possibly even immoral in the strictest sense.
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Watched a tv documentary week ago in Columbia these guys were making real guns from near nothing way out in the boonies, they were making 45 kimber clones and you could not see the difference other than one had a serial number, took him 5 months to make one and was paid 115 bucks but by the time it reached its destination it was in the thousands because it was a untraceable gun. Its a shame but what can you do about a 3rd world country. David
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq1TXEE_QK4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq1TXEE_QK4)
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The legal fact is that reverse engineering and copying of a product, in the absence of a patent, is perfectly legal and even to be encouraged because such work increases competition in the product, lowers prices, and may result in improvement of the product (if you have ever torn down a product you may have seen ways to improve it or learned lessons that apply in other designs).
It may not be perfectly morally acceptable, but if you want to protect your products from copying or imitation, better get a patent. Commerce is amoral or possibly even immoral in the strictest sense.
They don't exactly make it easy to get a patent these days. Sure sometimes stupid &^^& gets patented easily but something truly unique will have you facing a firing squad type of odds of getting a patent. Let's not kid ourselves.
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If anything the modern patent office gives out patents to easily and lets the courts sort it out. This is a disservice to everyone. The patent holder is stuck defending what may well be a bad patent he already spent money getting and the market is stuck fighting against many bad patents.
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Guess who benefits from patent infringements...yuppers. Lawyers. Cha-ching!$$$$$