GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: akairgunner on July 17, 2016, 11:25:32 PM
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I'm moving out to Dutch Harbor Alaska in 6 weeks. My Airforce Condor .25 is coming with me to knock out the abundant red foxes with some 60gr solids. However, I now desperately "need" a repeater pcp in .177 for Norway Rats and Ptarmigan. It rains over 300 days a year out there, and 10-20mph wind is a constant. So I'm looking for a stainless/synthetic repeater PPC. .177 to minimize wind drift and flatten trajectory, as I'll be doing lots of shooting up into sea cliffs (the rats are up there looking for seabird nests). Preferably the gun would have an integrated shroud for in town work.
I haven't been able to locate one, does anyone here know of a make/model with these features?
Cheers
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Budget?
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Somewhere around 2k tops for the bare rifle. Cheaper would be great of course.
Budget?
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Somewhere around 2k tops for the bare rifle. Cheaper would be great of course.
Budget?
Oh, that's plenty. I'd go with a FX Revolution
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I'm not seeing stainless on any of the specs? A non-stainless rifle will develop a rust film out there in an hour or two, because of all the salt blowing around.
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Really is a lack of stainless airguns, and I've often wondered why. Are various types of stainless with various properties (and some aren't as "stainless" (rustless) as others). Not really sure of it's properties as a pressure tube.
Do remember years back (12? 15?) a really long FARCO (like 30" barrel) co2 shotgun made of stainless...but can't think of a stainless PCP.
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Hi you might want a to contact Don Cotheran and he might be able to make something for you
Hope this helps
Dave
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I'm not seeing stainless on any of the specs? A non-stainless rifle will develop a rust film out there in an hour or two, because of all the salt blowing around.
Oh, if you want stainless you'll have to go full custom.
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Just wonder at times. Al., steel, even Titanium as major parts.....but they skip stainless? Even to the point of HW occasionally plating rifles to get the stainless look?
Have bought stainless/plastic stocked rifles specifically to survive saltwater environments. Yet, shotguns that see even more use in the marsh are seldom stainless (ahtugh I think tradition has much to do with that). It may be as simple as that they can, but choose not to as they don't see the market.
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I remember there was a bullpup listed in the classifieds recently that had a titanium tube? maybe? I think it was an Mrod-Air P-12? Titanium is more corrosion resistant than bare aluminum or steel.
I don't know anything about them other than there was titanium in the description.
Would a duracote or an NP3 coating work? It's been a long time since I've researched anti corrosion coatings.
Taso
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Hmm, I'll hunt around for a model with titanium tube and aluminum receiver/shroud. Then all I'd need to upgrade would be the barrel, which could honestly wait until the non-stainless one gets rusted up.
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They made some Titanium Falcons.
I do not think that a .177 will flatten trajectories or lessen wind drift.
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I do not think that a .177 will flatten trajectories or lessen wind drift.
I'd shoot for a .22 rifle that will push 15.9 JSB at 900 fps. Plenty flat shooting and bucks the wind pretty well. Quieter and higher shot count than a .25 rifle that shoots as flat.
I personally don't bother with .177 above 5ish mph wind.
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I'll be dealing with a target-rich environment, and I need to fill with a hand pump. My thinking was a high-velocity .177 would keep trajectory flat and shot counts high. For some reason I thought the BC of heavy .177 pellets was higher than .22, but I had it backwards.
Caliber choice not withstanding, I'm on the model hunt now.
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I'll be dealing with a target-rich environment, and I need to fill with a hand pump. My thinking was a high-velocity .177 would keep trajectory flat and shot counts high. For some reason I thought the BC of heavy .177 pellets was higher than .22, but I had it backwards.
Caliber choice not withstanding, I'm on the model hunt now.
Since you are probably going to have to go full custom to get stainless, there's no reason you can't get a large, regulated air cylinder. 100 shots at 36.62 fpe (18.13 grain JSB @ 900 fps) only requires 1.55 fpe/ci efficiency with a 500 cc tube. 1.55 fpe/ci is pretty easy to hit with regulation and/or an SSG device.
I'd trust a 18.13 JSB going at 900 fps to be good against a 20 mph without too much trouble.
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From what I understand, stainless is more difficult to machine than normal steels...so they probably don't even want to deal with it. IMO, a $1,000 gun should be stainless whether it's an airgun or a PB.
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This might be a stretch as I don't know a ton about PCP rifles, but have you ever considered wrapping the external parts susceptible to oxidation with gun wrap?
http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/396175/mcnett-tactical-camoform-protective-gun-wrap?cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-hunting%20-%20blinds%20%26%20furniture-_-mcnett%20tactical-_-396175&gclid=CL--98WW_c0CFQhkhgodUDkFYQ (http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/396175/mcnett-tactical-camoform-protective-gun-wrap?cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-hunting%20-%20blinds%20%26%20furniture-_-mcnett%20tactical-_-396175&gclid=CL--98WW_c0CFQhkhgodUDkFYQ)
With respect to the fact it may change barrel harmonics, a couple go-rounds with a good gun wrap will generally protect a gun from less than ideal conditions. It's not a fix all, you still have to maintain and clean your weapons at the end of the day, it just guarantees you more time outside without worrying about oxidation. Also, I always bring an extra rag or paper towel just in case the rain let's up as to not let the process begin.
I'm interested in a stainless steel, polymer, etc. pure hunting rifle myself, as I personally enjoy the rain, but the constant high humidity/ dew point where I live makes for rusty guns.
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Have you researched "Frog Lube"? If I was going to work in that environment I would have to try it, even on stain-less. You basically low temperature "cook" it into the micro pores of the metal. I wouldn't use it in the pressure chamber of a PCP (although it's not supposed to have any petroleum), but all exposed surfaces would get a treatment if it were me. It wouldn't be hard to see if it works or not, in constant salt spray. I live in Florida (I live 15 miles from the beach), and all my stainless firearms will get mild rust on them, that will turn into major rust if left unattended.
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You could possible duracoat the rife. That will definitely eliminate the corrosion issue.
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I would think stainless used in guns would be a 400 type like 416 these machine easy but not as rust resistant as the 300's steels used in marine applications.
So in a salt water IMO as stated above a good coating would be best.
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Yeah if you're willing to take apart your rifle, get it extremely EXTREMELY clean, and really take your time duracoating the gun in a manner that doesn't interfere with moving parts, it's your best bet by far.
I'd personally reccomend moly resin because it sprays on easier than duracoat and has a less reflective finish (the only serious downside to duracoated weapons)
That or duracoating AND adding waterproof gun wrap to reduce shininess.
Edit: cerakote is the best there is, but you're probably going to want to send your gun to a professional gun painter if you take it that far. Not an easy DIY process, and expensive enough that you had might as well get a custom finish.
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Norrell's Moly resin is top of the line. When is the last time any military gun was SS? I have never heard of a SS pellet barrel. Anodized aluminum is highly resistant to salt spray, which most receivers are. My ideal hand pumped gun would be a WAR .25 PRod with a CF shroud and a longer 304 tube. I don't know if Cothran does the PRod tube at this time. If I was hand pumping I would prefer to either keep the fill psi down or the tube volume down.
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Military guns are never SS, but mostly because military firearms are designed to be "good enough for Joe". They only budget like $650 per M4 (If I remember the figures correctly from the new FN contract). Plus the SS "flash" is easier to spot against natural backgrounds.
Looking at it, I'm probably going to go for a Ti tube with a Al receiver, and just put on a custom stainless bbl. Some sort of coating on the non-ss bolt components should finish it off nicely.
The airgun industry is spoiled in being able to use super-soft steel for barrel applications, and it probably just isn't worth investing in the next-level equipment for working harder alloys.
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Did everyone miss that he will be hand pumping in this environment? High humidity and salt.
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Did everyone miss that he will be hand pumping in this environment? High humidity and salt.
This is why I want a pretty high shot count. I can hand pump in a humidity controlled room then take it out to slay (we have several storage rooms that are kept dry for electronics). I'll also probably have access to other people's scuba equipment, but as I don't know that many people out there yet (I spent two summers but they were in remote field camps), so I can't count on it until I make some bar-room buddies.
Also, LW says on their website that some barrel blank options are newly available in SS. This shouldn't be too much trouble after all!
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SS isn't a good option really. Too hard to machine, not very flexible, costly, etc for use in a custom pcp.
Have you considered using a lower priced PCP like the AT 44 & applying 2-3 layers of cerakote?
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Well the salt is a problem, both internally and externally...no good way around that....but the high humidity hasn't bothered my PCPs in the last 10 years.
Are Titianium PCP's (Or at least partly Ti.) and that's a rear bear to machine compared to stainless.
Then again, I cannot remember a time when I actually had to refill while out hunting (so long as you don't get side tracked shooting cow pies, stray tweety birds, grasshoppers, pine cones, etc.). In my mind, it's like running out of ammo when Pb hunting....With a .22RF, if I have 25 cartridges in my pocket, I know I only take 25 shots that day...with a PCP filled, if it gets 25 shots, then I only take 25 shots. If I want more, then go back to the car (in my case a Jeep) and take out the "back-up" rifle.
OK...if you are paranoid about moisture and the insides of the PCP tube, you can cure that if you've the heart/ability to take the rifle apart.
Silicon grease (real silicon grease). Spread a real thin layer on the inside of the air tube when it's apart.
Real silicon grease will not "explode"; the stuff doesn't burn. It's used on the insides of pumps, where the pressure HAS to be higher than the pressure inside the rifle (or else the air would never go into the rifle). We do it by accident when we silicon grease and o-ringed PCP part and slide it down the tube.
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Several things. I don't have a car out there, I am riding a mountain bike with a rack, 4 panniers and (if needed) a trailer. A junker truck is over 4g out there, because they have to come out on the ferry, which only runs in the summer, and is quite expensive (fuel is expensive too). Also, the shot opportunities run in the hundreds. One evening, over the course of 3 hours, I saw over 100 Norway rats in the seaside boulder jumbles. I need lots of shots between fills.
Heck, it's sounding like I should pick up a stainless HW97 and not have to worry about fills, isn't it?
Well the salt is a problem, both internally and externally...no good way around that....but the high humidity hasn't bothered my PCPs in the last 10 years.
Are Titianium PCP's (Or at least partly Ti.) and that's a rear bear to machine compared to stainless.
Then again, I cannot remember a time when I actually had to refill while out hunting (so long as you don't get side tracked shooting cow pies, stray tweety birds, grasshoppers, pine cones, etc.). In my mind, it's like running out of ammo when Pb hunting....With a .22RF, if I have 25 cartridges in my pocket, I know I only take 25 shots that day...with a PCP filled, if it gets 25 shots, then I only take 25 shots. If I want more, then go back to the car (in my case a Jeep) and take out the "back-up" rifle.
OK...if you are paranoid about moisture and the insides of the PCP tube, you can cure that if you've the heart/ability to take the rifle apart.
Silicon grease (real silicon grease). Spread a real thin layer on the inside of the air tube when it's apart.
Real silicon grease will not "explode"; the stuff doesn't burn. It's used on the insides of pumps, where the pressure HAS to be higher than the pressure inside the rifle (or else the air would never go into the rifle). We do it by accident when we silicon grease and o-ringed PCP part and slide it down the tube.
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I would think stainless used in guns would be a 400 type like 416 these machine easy but not as rust resistant as the 300's steels used in marine applications.
So in a salt water IMO as stated above a good coating would be best.
Here lies the rub. The only stainless that is truly marine duty is 316/321. Great stuff but not really suited for major gun parts due to its machining and inability to be hardened. Stainless barrels are some variation of 400 (usually 416). This alloy is chosen for mainly for reduced throat erosion and the ability to achieve better finishes than Chromemoly. Corrosion reduction from elements is secondary.
Would a gun made of 400 ss work well in the harsh environment you describe. Of course but maintenance would still be a necessity.
Tom
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Is any of that relevant to air rifles? You don't get throat erosion like you do in PB's, and it doesn't need to be that hard with soft lead and no explosion.
I would think stainless used in guns would be a 400 type like 416 these machine easy but not as rust resistant as the 300's steels used in marine applications.
So in a salt water IMO as stated above a good coating would be best.
Here lies the rub. The only stainless that is truly marine duty is 316/321. Great stuff but not really suited for major gun parts due to its machining and inability to be hardened. Stainless barrels are some variation of 400 (usually 416). This alloy is chosen for mainly for reduced throat erosion and the ability to achieve better finishes than Chromemoly. Corrosion reduction from elements is secondary.
Would a gun made of 400 ss work well in the harsh environment you describe. Of course but maintenance would still be a necessity.
Tom
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Want the corrosion resistance more than the erosion resistance.
Just as an example.
My marsh shot gun (pump) started off life blued with a wood stock.
Parkerized the metal (which is ugly, kind of rough, but a very rust resistant).
Brownel's bake-on epoxy paint (black) over the Parkerizing.
Used the same super hi0-grade varnish on the wood that I'd use on a Teak boat deck (and renew it every year).
And I wax the metal and the wood with good old Johnsons past floor wax before going out duck hunting.
It is ugly....but it's no uglier now than it was in 2001.
A Pb rifle I use out in the salt march (mostly Nutria) is Stainless and plastic stocked. I literally wash it off with a garden hose before bringing it in the house. Wasn't "pretty" to start with, but after 20 years of use, it's no worse for wear.
There is probably a small market for a PCP that can take the abust of harsh climates...but it's a small market. Small enough that I don't blame the airgun makers (at least too often) for not filling it (and likely losing a pile of $ in filling that little corener).
I'm seriously considering a Maximus...to be parkerized (what metal they have is steel)...Brownel's baked on paint....and make it my "going down the bayou" rifle. If (when?) I do this, will likely end up as a black plastic stock and a gray Brownels bake-coat.
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Is any of that relevant to air rifles? You don't get throat erosion like you do in PB's, and it doesn't need to be that hard with soft lead and no explosion.
I would think stainless used in guns would be a 400 type like 416 these machine easy but not as rust resistant as the 300's steels used in marine applications.
So in a salt water IMO as stated above a good coating would be best.
Here lies the rub. The only stainless that is truly marine duty is 316/321. Great stuff but not really suited for major gun parts due to its machining and inability to be hardened. Stainless barrels are some variation of 400 (usually 416). This alloy is chosen for mainly for reduced throat erosion and the ability to achieve better finishes than Chromemoly. Corrosion reduction from elements is secondary.
Would a gun made of 400 ss work well in the harsh environment you describe. Of course but maintenance would still be a necessity.
Tom
Yes, it tells you why there are no SS barrels in airguns and why not many parts such as receivers either.
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Yeah if you're willing to take apart your rifle, get it extremely EXTREMELY clean, and really take your time duracoating the gun in a manner that doesn't interfere with moving parts, it's your best bet by far.
I'd personally reccomend moly resin because it sprays on easier than duracoat and has a less reflective finish (the only serious downside to duracoated weapons)
That or duracoating AND adding waterproof gun wrap to reduce shininess.
Edit: cerakote is the best there is, but you're probably going to want to send your gun to a professional gun painter if you take it that far. Not an easy DIY process, and expensive enough that you had might as well get a custom finish.
I meant cerakote... I got all my "kotes" mixed up ::)
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Is any of that relevant to air rifles? You don't get throat erosion like you do in PB's, and it doesn't need to be that hard with soft lead and no explosion.
I would think stainless used in guns would be a 400 type like 416 these machine easy but not as rust resistant as the 300's steels used in marine applications.
So in a salt water IMO as stated above a good coating would be best.
Here lies the rub. The only stainless that is truly marine duty is 316/321. Great stuff but not really suited for major gun parts due to its machining and inability to be hardened. Stainless barrels are some variation of 400 (usually 416). This alloy is chosen for mainly for reduced throat erosion and the ability to achieve better finishes than Chromemoly. Corrosion reduction from elements is secondary.
Would a gun made of 400 ss work well in the harsh environment you describe. Of course but maintenance would still be a necessity.
Tom
I use 416 in my valve bodies
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Considering the environment, you should stick with a .22lr in stainless. They cost less than $400 and it will be better suited for your needs. I love airguns but a realist also. Replacement parts and repairs are a huge consideration in a bush gun.
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Simple solution, .22 mrod have the airtube powder coated black and no worries...
Josh
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You are making way to much out of it !
I live by the sea ( with big waves that put a lot of salt in the air,...rust in any car over here is terrible ) .....I hunt in mostly rainy conditions, if not highly humid.
I only Hand Pump and my house isn't air conditioned.
I coat my guns with Ballistol and really take care of them,...never had one spec or rust develope and when I inspect my Airtubes they always been spotless.
So, again, you overthinking the all situation.
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http://www.cothranmachine.com/ (http://www.cothranmachine.com/)
Talk to this guy. Guy great and very knowledgeable.
Just an FYI, he makes stainless steel discovery length PCP airtubes if you dont want a tank and stainless steel breeches. That will be the closes you can get to all stainless steel gun.
But if you want a high shot count go with a bottle. Ninja 3000psi bottle with either the qb79 tank block or the JDS tanks block, cothran machine 2240 pcp tube with one of his stainless steel breeches. the ret of the parts you can pick what you want. Heck a BMN breech would be awesome!
This would probably be perfect: https://flic.kr/p/JP94WV (https://flic.kr/p/JP94WV)
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(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7557/28100433741_18c9148e4e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JP94WV)DSC00047_1-1 (https://flic.kr/p/JP94WV) by Michael Stroup (https://www.flickr.com/photos/100502179@N06/), on Flickr
Lets see if that works.
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(https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8087/28371350766_b3ff2ac648_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Ke5A97)chipper 25yds 061816_zpstctjna9v-1 (https://flic.kr/p/Ke5A97) by Michael Stroup (https://www.flickr.com/photos/100502179@N06/), on Flickr
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8586/28300187742_c7a2cdf9f0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/K7MRRq)picture-1 (https://flic.kr/p/K7MRRq) by Michael Stroup (https://www.flickr.com/photos/100502179@N06/), on Flickr
These are great options as well.
These are not mine. They are from members on this forum that i took inspiration from for my build.
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Well... I guess I'm gonna get something affordable like a qb78 repeater conversion from archer (with that nice big air bottle), and coat all the steel parts. With the bottle I can get 125 shots at 660 fps and a TKO should keep me under $500. I'll probably get the velocity bumped up to 750 ish and carry an extra bottle.
Thanks for all the input guys. There were a few good points that deserve addressing.
1) Just get a stainless 22. The rimfire shortage is still strong in AK, and again, it can't be flown in so it has to go by barge. Pellets are less than 1/3 the price and the only viable option for high-volume shooting. I have a 5k round stockpile of LR for small game hunting, but I'm not interested in depleting it.
2) You're making too much of it. It rains 220 days a year out there, and the bering sea is relatively shallow with lots of conflicting winds. Thus, much more wave action and therefore salt in the air than pretty much anywhere in the world. Also I'll be hunting primarily right on the beach (as that's where the rats are), with sea spray getting tossed around. I am sure I'm being overly-cautious, but that's how I roll.
3) Lots of "almost viable" models. Shot count is paramount. Repeaters are necessary because it's pretty much always 45 degrees, rainy, misty, and blowing. So I'd like to only de-glove to reload 3-4 mags and get back to shooting.
I love it out there, but the winters are long and having diverse hobbies is the only way to maintain sanity.
Cheers!
Justin.
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Grab a .22 mrod, spend about $60 duracoating it, spend the rest on mods and optics. That or look into having someone hydro dipping it for a custom pattern and stronger finish. A good hydrocoat wrap is in the same ballpark as cerakote around here.
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Buy cheap and buy often! Actually making a real suggestion not a wise crack. ;)
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Probably missed it, but how far you gonna be shooting? Around 50 yards why not a Hatsan qe style magnum springer? You'll get a great shoulder workout and wouldn't have to carry a bottle or worry about a pump
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Just going to mention this as first hand experience for the "worst case".
Pictue a 14 foot barrel of water. Dump in 2 pounds of salt (bor brakish water). Add in every chemical in an urban enviroment, from both retail/industrial uses to all the various cans/tins, bottles,kept in a typical house. Toss in a dead cat. Toss in five or six shovels of dirt. Go to the bathroom in the barrel (yes..both). Now toss in ALL your firearms and airguns and violently stir the barrel. Let it sit in +90F heat. Dill a tiny hole in the barrel (small enough for it to take weeks to drain). Even after it drains, let it sit for another three weeks.
What survived well enough to just need a detail cleaning?
Well...nothing wood survived no matter what the finish (oil, varnish, poly, or even the laminates). With enough time became dry...but warped/split or had the color and texture of petrafied peanut butter. Some plastics didn't survive either, but athe highest survival/recoverable rate does to plastic.
Anything steel running through the wood (stock bolts, bi pod mounts, etc) rusted/swelled. cracked the stock. Same with Al. parts, except they corroded rather than rusted..still swelled and split the stock.
Many stainless of several brands were in there, but only 2 really survived un-pitted and both of them were older Rugers. Really hard to believe just how badly typical fiearm stainless will pit with enough neglect.
Three military semi-autos, with some kind of baked paint over parkerizing, survived in pretty good shape. HAd a little problem where the factory finish had worn and let the corrosive water eat at the edges, but they cleaned up pretty well.
Two blued handguns survived becasue they were in long-term storage and were well coated in RIG grease inside and out. They got some surface rust, but the well grease packed (and so not in "ready to shoot" condition) action parts survived.
NOTHING Al. survived (some parts you could just crumble with your fingers)...no blued steel guns survived...no airgun survived....no wood stock survived...a couple of plated guns, without any scratches, LOOKED good, but the internal parts/bore didn't survive. The plated stuff with wear/scratches all "bubbled" as the liquid invaded and ate away under the plating and the action parts were not plated.
In short, the "winners" of that were one maker's (and these were from back in the day, so likely not the same alloy used today) Stainless, parkerize steel and a baked on over coat, and the few things totally packed in grease (inside and out,so were NOT ready to shoot with all that gunk inside).
So in your case, I'd not worry about it...just keep a greasy rag handy (stuff a small greeasy rag in a pill bottle or plastic bag and put it in your pocket....likely find time every couple of hours to use it to refresh the metal where it wears off).
When I know I'm going out in the rain or salt marsh-splatter, will often Johnson's past floor wax ALL the rifle and the stock (does including taking it out the stock to get to the hidden metal). Won't even bother to buff the wax, just leave it that dead non-reflective dull dry wax color.
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It sounds like a personal experience story so I hate to ask....but I gotta. What happened? Doesn't sound like this was an intentional "test"
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Hurricane in 2005...14 feet and fast moving brakish water and 6 weeks of sitting in that chemical/salt/sewage mix before allwed back in the city.
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Hurricane in 2005...14 feet and fast moving brakish water and 6 weeks of sitting in that chemical/salt/sewage mix before allwed back in the city.
Wow! That is horrible.
That brings up a question. In a situation like that, would your insurance pay to replace the guns?
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Well... I guess I'm gonna get something affordable like a qb78 repeater conversion from @=S+S%^$# (with that nice big air bottle), and coat all the steel parts. With the bottle I can get 125 shots at 660 fps and a TKO should keep me under $500. I'll probably get the velocity bumped up to 750 ish and carry an extra bottle.
Thanks for all the input guys. There were a few good points that deserve addressing.
1) Just get a stainless 22. The rimfire shortage is still strong in AK, and again, it can't be flown in so it has to go by barge. Pellets are less than 1/3 the price and the only viable option for high-volume shooting. I have a 5k round stockpile of LR for small game hunting, but I'm not interested in depleting it.
2) You're making too much of it. It rains 220 days a year out there, and the bering sea is relatively shallow with lots of
conflicting winds. Thus, much more wave action and therefore salt in the air than pretty much anywhere in the world. Also I'll be hunting primarily right on the beach (as that's where the rats are), with sea spray getting tossed around. I am sure I'm being overly-cautious, but that's how I roll.
3) Lots of "almost viable" models. Shot count is paramount. Repeaters are necessary because it's pretty much always 45 degrees, rainy, misty, and blowing. So I'd like to only de-glove to reload 3-4 mags and get back to shooting.
I love it out there, but the winters are long and having diverse hobbies is the only way to maintain sanity.
Cheers!
Justin.
Since you want to go the QB78/79 bottle pcp route talk to nervoustrigger and Rocker1 about the slip on LDC.
But you may not have to go through building one as someone is selling a qb79 bottle pcp in 22cal that is well proven in the Classifieds on this forum.