GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: oldpro on May 20, 2016, 10:04:09 PM
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Those who know me know I hate loud guns but what they dont know is why. I had and accident that tore my ear drum free and took quite a long time to heal and i would constantly get ear infections due to this problem and if you ever had and inner ear infection then you know how painful it is. so having my bad ear against the breech of weapons makes me nervous if I think the DB level will be over 100DB. I digress so i now will attempt(for fun and learning) to build the quietest air rifle EVER! But Im not talking a pea shooter I set my goal at 40 fpe most likely in .25 cal. I will post my build as I go with pics and DB readings. This should be fun.
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Wow, that's a tough way to learn something. Good luck with your mouse-fart gun, and "don't shoot your ear out!" :-)
BTW, did you regain hearing in your infected ear?
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That seems like a tall order to fill. There are many already that are almost inaudible. If you can beat that, then WOW!
Richard
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hearing about 50% in right ear. There are very very quiet guns but Im talking no report or mechanical noise. Also im not just going to de tune a .177 im going to make a min. of 40 fpe and have a length requirement of 40 inches no longer.
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Well, after having seen and handled some of your guns, I have faith that you'll create something truly spectacular.
Richard
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I am glad to hear it. I have diagnosed myself as suffering from misophonia. I have a pathological dislike of anything noisy- so I am liking this idea a lot.
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I'm interested to see what you do about quieting the action,
are you going to use a existing gun or make a custom one?
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Im going to use a .25 Mrod platform and work around it.
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Sounds really interesting, especially the reduction of mechanical noise. Breech risers to allow large diameter shroud and peek tip for the hammer are in the plans I'd guess?
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Cool project. If anyone can tackle it, it's you.
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going to make a min. of 40 fpe and have a length requirement of 40 inches no longer.
That will be very impressive, especially if you keep the stock barrel length. A return of the bull frog? :)
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I would still have a foam earplug in my right ear!
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Travis, having owned a Flex .30 and having a Gen 1 .25 tuned by Senor Travis I can confirm that you make these guns SUPER QUITE!!!
Keep up the great work Travis
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Looking forward to the build the reason I'm into airguns now is because of hearing damage over the years of hunting pigeons with shotguns to the point of my soon to be wife thinks I need hearing aids and I'm only 23 (some of that is selective when it come to her of course ::)) I cant stand hunting with ear plugs so I hadn't hunted in a few years until I got back into airguns quiet ones of course. It's an enjoyment to shoot guns again with zero fear of causing hearing problems. I'm looking forward to what you come up with.
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Yeah Oldpro,
I'm deaf in my right ear due to a brain tumor in 1995. Prior to that, too much Led Zeppelin 1,2,4,5 and the Outlaws "Green Grass & High Tides" damaged the left one. I have made LDC's for all my PCP's, but any ideas that help reduce their report would be appreciated ;)
Kirk
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My .25 is my second stealthiest pcp I have.....first place going to my 12fpe prod.
That thing is stupid quiet. But my .25 (43fpe tune) is not bad at all, (my old 760 is louder on two pumps).
I'm interested where this build goes.
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2 things MAKE NOISE ......
The Air guns Mechanics & release of a high amplitude air blast.
Mitigate the mechanical racket & reduce / channel the air before exit and there ya go.
Many already know there way around both, trick is maximizing / minimizing the known tricks into one package.
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Ill document it all as I go. I ordered all the parts I need and will begin very soon. Im going to use some ideas Ive never seen posted anywhere before so It might get real interesting. I have to also be careful of the rules here as to not show how certain parts are made so I will use a link where needed. Let the party begin.
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Im going to use a .25 Mrod platform and work around it.
I was SO hoping you were going to say that!
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I have to also be careful of the rules here as to not show how certain parts are made so I will use a link where needed. Let the party begin.
Thank you.
I get frustrated with I figured it out but can't show you on site because way things are.
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This sounds like an awesome project!! Hmmm, would there also be a super-quiet LDC for multiple platforms in the works as well? Because that would be awesome too!
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I'm deaf in my right ear due to a brain tumor in 1995. Prior to that, too much Led Zeppelin 1,2,4,5 and the Outlaws "Green Grass & High Tides" damaged the left one.
Kirk, that is a tough cancer to overcome. Congrats on winning that battle. I have lost a couple of friends to it. :(
PS: I had the same music problem back then. ;) I'm not deaf, but ringing can come and go.
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Constant ringing in my ears from powder burners. I constantly have to remind myself that everything is a littlle louder than what I'm hearing.
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Constant ringing in my ears from powder burners. I constantly have to remind myself that everything is a littlle louder than what I'm hearing.
;) ;D Including our voice . My wife is always telling me to stop yelling ;D ;D
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;) ;D Including our voice . My wife is always telling me to stop yelling ;D ;D
;D My Dad is the same way, grew up running tractors without ear plugs...
I always feel sorry for the people he talks to on the phone ::) ;)
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I always feel sorry for the people he talks to on the phone ::) ;)
LOL! I know a few people like that.
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Matthew, are you talking about me? ;D ;D
Ladies and Gentlemen, you need only to get yourself over to the audiologist's office and let the testing begin. The hearing aids I am wearing are covered by my insurance (100%). And, as I stated in another thread, they help in the woods when squirrel hunting. Re: EYES and EARS! (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=97988.msg938251#msg938251)
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Quiet will be good especially for those of us with limited access to gun ranges
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Constant ringing in my ears from powder burners. I constantly have to remind myself that everything is a littlle louder than what I'm hearing.
;) ;D Including our voice . My wife is always telling me to stop yelling ;D ;D
This is so true I get in trouble for having a "tone" or raising my voice when the simple fact is I'm not mad or anything I just can't hear ;D
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Alright folks, Moderator time....
This thread is starting to wander in a few directions. Nothing inflammatory or wrong, but, its distracting from the original poster's intent and idea. Lets get back on track. Oldpro, thank you for being mindful of the rules, and I WILL be following this, as will others.
Thanks folks!
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We have received a member complaint that this thread needs to stay on track. Please discuss other topics in a separate thread. Keep this one informative on the new build.
And don't shoot the messenger, I'm just the delivery boy.
Excellent Travis.
After shooting the WARP (and placing my order) I will be extremely impressed if you make it quieter that THAT jewel!!!
:)
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Well it seems at least partly understandable that folks wander off track in this thread, as oldpro hasn't really offered anything concrete regarding this idea. I understand he's a recognised professional in the field. But so far, it seems a bit premature, as nothing's actually been built nor even spoken about in any detail. No really nothing to 'discuss' here, except insofar as expressing enthusiastic support for the idea of a quiet 40fpe PCP if/when it should be made. Not surprising at all that hearing-related issues should come up as there's nothing much else to talk about.
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Parts are hear today and work will begin shortly. I plan on several things I always wanted to try including barrel venting and a double wall shroud. Ill post pics shortly as I move along in the project.
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Hey Administrators & Complaining Member -> Give us a Break :P,
Sorry if my post regarding MY hearing loss got us off track, but a hearing loss is The Reason OldPro is doing this in the first place. It sounds like Your hearing is OK ::) I think everyone is just trying to say "Yes, I have that problem too and look forward to your results with the .25 caliber Marauder ;)"
As I stated, I'm deaf in my right ear and have about 70% remaining in the left (high end is gone). While visiting out in AZ, (last Sunday) I went to the Ben Avery Gun Range off I-17 North. Haven't been to a gun range since 1995, but wanted to test my HW35E to make sure nothing Major was wrong - mechanically. There website mentioned an indoor Airgun Range, but was off limits to me for some reason. I bought the stock earplugs for .50 cents for the left ear.
I was the only Airgun shooter there and Man it was loud. Before even attempting to shoot, I had to buy a pair of 31 decibel reduction ear muffs to be used with my plug. I could tell the noise & concussion was going to do my ear in real fast or I had to leave.
So for "Old Farts" like me, I need to save every last bit of hearing I can. Thanks for the topic OldPro, we look forward to your ideas with interest.
Hey FuzzyGrup: My brain tumor wasn't cancer (I was spared), but the "Thing" was going to kill me if they didn't pop it out.
Sorry to hear about your friends :(
Kirk
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Hey Administrators & Complaining Member -> Give us a Break :P,
Kirk
That can be arranged Kirk. 14 day break to start with.
LOL
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Parts are hear today and work will begin shortly. I plan on several things I always wanted to try including barrel venting and a double wall shroud. Ill post pics shortly as I move along in the project.
That's interesting, barrel venting to one part of the shroud and then muzzle vented part around it? I've always thought it's a firearm thing due to higher pressure and less gas volume but it will interesting to see what you can achieve. Do you plan on drilling to the grooves in spiral pattern?
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;D I am also Interested in this project and if it is successful maybe my .308 Marauder can adapt the results
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Parts are hear today and work will begin shortly. I plan on several things I always wanted to try including barrel venting and a double wall shroud. Ill post pics shortly as I move along in the project.
Travis- what do you mean by this? It sounds very interesting...
Vented barrel- you mean like a suppressed Sten submachine gun?
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Im going to drill small holes before the choke into the barrel to vent the very high pressure into the shroud before the stripper THEN the air will be stripped off inside the shroud by a set of very unigue baffles THEN it will exit into a larger shroud that also contains a floating stripper and more baffles. the larger shroud will completely cover over the smaller shroud. This should in all theory completely eliminate all muzzle report so next is the hammer and valve. Im going to use a large seat poppet valve to shorten dwell as much as possible THEN im going to put a aluminum hat on the valve poppet with a delrin insert NEXT im going to use a delrin hammer and a ssg with and delrin pusher. A few other things that will be in the gun cannot be discussed but I will post links when the time comes
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HeeHee
Gotta love mad scientist stuff!!!!
Or is this James Bond type stuff?
Either way, most excellent Travis!!!
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HeeHee
Gotta love mad scientist stuff!!!!
Or is this James Bond type stuff?
Either way, most excellent Travis!!!
Travis McGyver. :-)
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Supper excellent idea to port the barrel just behind the choke. I have done this once with great success (145db to 86db) a very very long time ago. Just shroud over that no baffles and shroud ported near the breach to allow hot fast gas to release slowly.
I did learn something very valuable though,
Drilling into the barrel is not such a hot idea as it can and will leave a burr. You may want to look into making the holes using EDM. EDM will not leave a burr and it will be a very clean hole.
Shops around be me are pricey. But, there is a hack to make an EDM from an old door bell ringer and a small power supply.
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I may switch it up a bit. Might do it on a Prod WHY because I already have a breech riser and a prod shroud fits inside a mrod shroud nicely and I have tons of prod stuff to work with.
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Im going to drill small holes before the choke into the barrel to vent the very high pressure into the shroud before the stripper THEN the air will be stripped off inside the shroud by a set of very unigue baffles THEN it will exit into a larger shroud that also contains a floating stripper and more baffles. the larger shroud will completely cover over the smaller shroud. This should in all theory completely eliminate all muzzle report so next is the hammer and valve. Im going to use a large seat poppet valve to shorten dwell as much as possible THEN im going to put a aluminum hat on the valve poppet with a delrin insert NEXT im going to use a delrin hammer and a ssg with and delrin pusher. A few other things that will be in the gun cannot be discussed but I will post links when the time comes
Holes in the barrel directly, venting to baffling- Yep, just like the early suppressed Sten. Wow, a 3 stage- Very intriguing!!! I thought I was onto something with the 2 stage on my .22 Mrod build- 1st stage were the standard cups, the 2nd stage was a larger LDC by Neil Clague that threaded onto the barrel shroud, using the endcap threads... THAT was a very quiet set up for 30 fpe (ask mobilemail ;) )... But this three stage- sounds like a doozy!! I can't wait to see the results!!
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looking very forward to seeing this developed Travis.
keep up the amazing work.
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I may switch it up a bit. Might do it on a Prod WHY because I already have a breech riser and a prod shroud fits inside a mrod shroud nicely and I have tons of prod stuff to work with.
FWIW: A prod shroud barely fits within a mrod shroud. I have grafted Mrod shrouds to prod, and it only takes two layers of a soda can shim for a tight fit.
(http://joefish.homestead.com/Magpul09.jpg)
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I may switch it up a bit. Might do it on a Prod WHY because I already have a breech riser and a prod shroud fits inside a mrod shroud nicely and I have tons of prod stuff to work with.
FWIW: A prod shroud barely fits within a mrod shroud. I have grafted Mrod shrouds to prod, and it only takes two layers of a soda can shim for a tight fit.
(http://joefish.homestead.com/Magpul09.jpg)
I know and thats exactly what I need it to do.
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You may want to look into making the holes using EDM.
EDM=? ???
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Electrical discharge machining perhaps?
But I've had decent success in barrel porting using a sharp drill on a drill press fed slowly, followed by very careful use of a small undercutting Dremel diamond bit to just carve away the burr left inside the bore, no more. Of course EDM is superior, but it's not something to which I have access.
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You may want to look into making the holes using EDM.
EDM=? ???
Thanks, Scott; I was about to ask.
Gerald, thanks for the answer. It is going to be included in Abbreviations/Acronyms.
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You may want to look into making the holes using EDM.
EDM=? ???
Electronic Discharge Machine .....
uses a preshaped CARBON electrode along with specialty controller to Create a controlled ARC of electricity that erodes away the metal to the exact shape of the electrode.
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Ah, thanks Motorhead. Was just guessing, hence the '?' after my poke at expanding the abbreviation. Although 'electronic' seems a bit odd, considering it's an 'electric' arc, not an 'electronic' arc being used... but hey, I didn't invent it so I don't get to name it.
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Ah, thanks Motorhead. Was just guessing, hence the '?' after my poke at expanding the abbreviation. Although 'electronic' seems a bit odd, considering it's an 'electric' arc, not an 'electronic' arc being used... but hey, I didn't invent it so I don't get to name it.
It actually is ... Electrical ... my bad ;)
See: http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrT6Vnd.kVXOD8A1vwPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByb2lvbXVuBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1464232798/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fElectrical_discharge_machining/RK=0/RS=10J6xFVAzxesg20MceSdaUmjPdM- (http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrT6Vnd.kVXOD8A1vwPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByb2lvbXVuBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1464232798/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fElectrical_discharge_machining/RK=0/RS=10J6xFVAzxesg20MceSdaUmjPdM-)
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I was a Wire EDM machinist for a few years at a tool and die shop in Minneapolis. We made stripping dies for a lot of high end compound bows and the repopped HENRY rifles. Very cool stuff... EDM is expensive, but sometimes it's just the right thing. We cut tool steel that had already been machined and already been heat treated, as heat treated tool steel can't be machined since it's already as hard as the cutting tool you would use to cut it. The whole process is done underwater.. in de-ionized water. Crazy.
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The only reason for suggesting the EDM was because when I ported my barrel and slugged it, the projectile had very unique marks on it from the very slight burr in the rifling edges.
I couldn't deburr the barrel good enough without making it worse. The porting is very small. I used a very shall angle drill bit very slowly with lot's of lubricant.
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WHAT??? ;D Travis,I had the same thing happened to me when I was younger that has left me 80% deaf. Most everything sounds quiet to me these days although it's strange that I can sometimes hear things nobody else can.lol Can't wait to "hear" WHAT? You come up with!!
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Well certainly EDM is preferable. But for those without access to such wonders (and gosh darn it, what machinist wouldn't want an EDM setup, especially a mini mill, at home?) there's rotary tools. The one I've used to port barrels measures 0.125" but perhaps there's a smaller one made. I mark the barrel wall thickness with a Sharpie all the way around, then work in very light passes supporting the Dremel in both hands, starting and stopping with the bit centred in the hole. Tricky, but I've pushed pellets carefully through and find absolutely clear, uninterrupted rifling on both heads and skirts, no evidence of burr damage, and accuracy was not harmed when comparing groups before and after porting.
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Very cool, I'll be watching this one 8) I've had inner ear infections many times especially when I was really young, I bursted my eardrum shooting an M60, then I burst the same one in a factory dumping scrap (even with earplugs in) I now have ringing in my ears all the time, every day 24/7, sometimes worse than others, kinda learned to live with it since the doc told me there's not much a person can do about it. There are drugs that help but that's not my chosen route. When I'm hunting I don't wear earplugs but when I'm target shooting I always do now.
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Even one loud gunshot can cause pain or sometimes damage to the ears. So whenever I'm going to be around loud noises like that, I pop in my custom moulded Etymotics active hearing protection. A client made me a set in exchange for some work and I just love the things. Had some silicone impressions made past the second bend of my ear canals by a hearing aid shop, sent those off to him and a little while later got my electronic earplugs back. Two settings (wish there was an 'off' switch though as that'd save me the trouble of pulling out the batteries between uses), one for completely dulling all sound and reactive damping of high intensity noises, the other amplifying ambient sound up to 6x while maintaining the same level of damping for high intensity noise like gunshots. The amplification is amazing for helping me pick out even the smallest sounds, though after a while it can get to be a bit of an overload of information. Especially if I hear people talking about me. ;D
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I know and thats exactly what I need it to do.
I made two of them a while ago and they have held up very well. JB weld. This worked better that dealing with a breech riser and a full diameter mrod shroud. I have one left to do when I get around to it.