GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: scottyhazzard on April 25, 2016, 09:01:42 PM
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E-Bay, always a gamble in my mind so I'm not certain if the SCBA I have just received from E-Bay is going to pass visual inspection. (I also have never owned an SCBA, so kinda clueless)
The tank is an Interspiro 45 min tank built in Oct 2010 and hydrostatic tested March of this year.
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/0265EC0E-CFF1-4E78-A54E-BDC083F0270C.jpg (http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/0265EC0E-CFF1-4E78-A54E-BDC083F0270C.jpg)
But there is this foam/resin patching on there that makes me wonder if it will pass another visual inspection or if it has just been protected in some of the deeper chips or scratches.
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/A1D88DAF-528B-42CE-8C76-0B0BA4416F38.jpg (http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/A1D88DAF-528B-42CE-8C76-0B0BA4416F38.jpg)
Can anyone tell me if this is normal or if I should send it back?
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Wow that tank is hammered. I'd take it in for an inspection just to see what they say or return it.
Tom
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I think that's what I'll do tomorrow. Thanks.
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I would definitely get the visual and then contact the seller if there is an issue.
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I took the tank in to my local fill station for a visual inspection and fill. I figure that is prudent even with a good looking tank and especially prudent with my eyesore of a tank. It was just hydro'ed in March but I'm wary of E-Bay and I have never seen this type of patching material. It's a tarnish opaque polymer looking hard foam. I'm not sure if it's just to protect the material underneath and stabilize the damage or if it's something bad. At $150 shipped for a 2010 45 min tank with a fresh hydro I'm way skeptical. We'll have to see. Might be done by Friday as the guy that does the testing is out until tomorrow...
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Just my opinion here.
I'd send it back ASAP & demand a refund, including all shipping charges & taxes associated with the sale. That thing looks like a hazard.
Even though it might pass a VI, I personally wouldn't chance keeping it filled with any amount of pressure in it in close proximity to myself or anyone else.
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Mod90- Now I'm nervous. It passed the hydro with those patches about a month ago which makes me think the fibers under the clear shell are intact. I was concerned that if the outside looks this bad that the inside might have hidden horrors. You are saying even if it passes visual and has passed a hydro that I should boot it. Now I'm really unsure about this thing. I had come to believe that these little tanks are incredibly strong and can take a lot of abuse until the fibers around the tank itself are damaged and start to unravel or fray. For lack of a better description it looks like the clear candy shell on the outside of the tank was chipped or flaked off like the shell of a hard boiled egg but that the fiber shell beneath remains. I'm going to have to talk with the tank guy, Etse at the dive shop and the seller. I don't want an HPA bomb.
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Mod90- Now I'm nervous. It passed the hydro with those patches about a month ago which makes me think the fibers under the clear shell are intact. I was concerned that if the outside looks this bad that the inside might have hidden horrors. You are saying even if it passes visual and has passed a hydro that I should boot it. Now I'm really unsure about this thing. I had come to believe that these little tanks are incredibly strong and can take a lot of abuse until the fibers around the tank itself are damaged and start to unravel or fray. For lack of a better description it looks like the clear candy shell on the outside of the tank was chipped or flaked off like the shell of a hard boiled egg but that the fiber shell beneath remains. I'm going to have to talk with the tank guy, Etse at the dive shop and the seller. I don't want an HPA bomb.
Likely nothing at all wrong with that tank. Take a trip to your local fire house and ask to see few of their tanks that are in service and have been in service for a while, you'll see.....
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Far as I know carbon fiber tanks don't require a visual. When I got mine hydro tested the person said "visual" is something dive shops are concerned with-he was only doing the hydro.
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I talked at length with a guy who's name escapes me right now, but he is in charge of a DOT program for certification and extending the lives of 15 year old SCBAs for the navy and soon for civilians; my understanding from him was that if the bottle could take the crazy pressure of a hydro test it could certainly withstand the pressure of a fill and that a tank with pressure in it can handle storage and abuse better than an empty tank. But this information is not from my realm of experience.
I think it is analogous to my work as an ER nurse. People come to me every shift terrified, telling me that they have this sign and that symptom of a diagnosis that they have read about and can speak intelligently about. However because of my education and years of experience I can tell in a few moments that they don't have those signs or symptoms and they have something else that is much less severe and is actually very common. They almost always don't believe me and are skeptical of what I explain to them until after the tests come back. Then maybe 20% still think the doctor and I are wrong. That usually frustrates me- come to the expert and only follow your own advice.
I'm going to have to consult the professional with experience and get his guidance. I don't want to be blasé about the respect I feel 4500psi demands but I also don't want to be paranoid and fearful out of my ignorance.
I can't thank you all enough for your input in helping me with this. It is very much appreciated, thanks.
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That cylinder appears to have level 3 damage, and will not pass inspection. I'd say that the seller owes you a full refund.
http://www.dcfpnavymil.org/Personnel%20Protection/SCBA/SCBA%20Tip%2020/CarbonFiberSCBACylInsp.pdf (http://www.dcfpnavymil.org/Personnel%20Protection/SCBA/SCBA%20Tip%2020/CarbonFiberSCBACylInsp.pdf)
http://www.galiso.com/Training/mobile/pdf/Luxferscbaguide2.pdf (http://www.galiso.com/Training/mobile/pdf/Luxferscbaguide2.pdf)
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That cylinder appears to have level 3 damage, and will not pass inspection. I'd say that the seller owes you a full refund.
http://www.dcfpnavymil.org/Personnel%20Protection/SCBA/SCBA%20Tip%2020/CarbonFiberSCBACylInsp.pdf (http://www.dcfpnavymil.org/Personnel%20Protection/SCBA/SCBA%20Tip%2020/CarbonFiberSCBACylInsp.pdf)
http://www.galiso.com/Training/mobile/pdf/Luxferscbaguide2.pdf (http://www.galiso.com/Training/mobile/pdf/Luxferscbaguide2.pdf)
Real hard to tell from the pics, but sure looks like just Level 1 damage to me. The gelcoat is chipped. I don't see any glass fiber nor carbon fiber showing thru.
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/A1D88DAF-528B-42CE-8C76-0B0BA4416F38.jpg)
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Take a better look at the big white patch. I see about 3 layers of glass cut through. The holes don't appear deeper, because someone has filled them in with some kind of resin and you can't see the bottom. The Luxifer link lists level 3 damage as deeper than 0.030". Doesn't take much to cut down 0.030".
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That cylinder appears to have level 3 damage, and will not pass inspection. I'd say that the seller owes you a full refund.
http://www.dcfpnavymil.org/Personnel%20Protection/SCBA/SCBA%20Tip%2020/CarbonFiberSCBACylInsp.pdf (http://www.dcfpnavymil.org/Personnel%20Protection/SCBA/SCBA%20Tip%2020/CarbonFiberSCBACylInsp.pdf)
http://www.galiso.com/Training/mobile/pdf/Luxferscbaguide2.pdf (http://www.galiso.com/Training/mobile/pdf/Luxferscbaguide2.pdf)
Real hard to tell from the pics, but sure looks like just Level 1 damage to me. The gelcoat is chipped. I don't see any glass fiber nor carbon fiber showing thru.
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/A1D88DAF-528B-42CE-8C76-0B0BA4416F38.jpg)
That pic doesnt allow you to make that assumption. First the damage has something covering it so you cant see how deep the damage actually is and if the fibers are damaged. I am not saying it has worse damage than lev1 but it has been stated several times the damage is covered by some type of foam or resin. So without being able to see the damage its really hard for anyone on the forum to say its all good. I would either ask for a refund or get it looked at by someone qualified in determining if the tank is compromised.
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Likely nothing at all wrong with that tank. Take a trip to your local fire house and ask to see few of their tanks that are in service and have been in service for a while, you'll see.....
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I am a fireman and have been using this type of equipment ever since it came out. They ARE way tougher than you think. It is not uncommon to see maintenance of this sort. The carbon fiber is wrapped around an aluminum tank. If the CF gets scraped up, it gets patched like that to keep the damage to a minimum. If the tests are current, you should be good to go. But being as you aren't privy to the exact history, then a new inspection is not a bad idea.
Richard
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That cylinder appears to have level 3 damage, and will not pass inspection. I'd say that the seller owes you a full refund.
http://www.dcfpnavymil.org/Personnel%20Protection/SCBA/SCBA%20Tip%2020/CarbonFiberSCBACylInsp.pdf (http://www.dcfpnavymil.org/Personnel%20Protection/SCBA/SCBA%20Tip%2020/CarbonFiberSCBACylInsp.pdf)
http://www.galiso.com/Training/mobile/pdf/Luxferscbaguide2.pdf (http://www.galiso.com/Training/mobile/pdf/Luxferscbaguide2.pdf)
Real hard to tell from the pics, but sure looks like just Level 1 damage to me. The gelcoat is chipped. I don't see any glass fiber nor carbon fiber showing thru.
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/A1D88DAF-528B-42CE-8C76-0B0BA4416F38.jpg)
That pic doesnt allow you to make that assumption. First the damage has something covering it so you cant see how deep the damage actually is and if the fibers are damaged. I am not saying it has worse damage than lev1 but it has been stated several times the damage is covered by some type of foam or resin. So without being able to see the damage its really hard for anyone on the forum to say its all good. I would either ask for a refund or get it looked at by someone qualified in determining if the tank is compromised.
Leland - that was not an assumption, that was what I did NOT see. Do you see any fibers?........... Didn't think so. Without tank in hand all of the "Level 3 damage" , "potential bomb" and other comments are just speculation.
Did you read what OP wrote?
Mod90- Now I'm nervous. It passed the hydro with those patches about a month ago which makes me think the fibers under the clear shell are intact. I was concerned that if the outside looks this bad that the inside might have hidden horrors. You are saying even if it passes visual and has passed a hydro that I should boot it. Now I'm really unsure about this thing. I had come to believe that these little tanks are incredibly strong and can take a lot of abuse until the fibers around the tank itself are damaged and start to unravel or fray. For lack of a better description it looks like the clear candy shell on the outside of the tank was chipped or flaked off like the shell of a hard boiled egg but that the fiber shell beneath remains. I'm going to have to talk with the tank guy, Etse at the dive shop and the seller. I don't want an HPA bomb.
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Hopefully tomorrow I will hear back from Estey or Este from Fish Eye Scuba tomorrow or next week. They still have the tank there. As for the resin patches, they looked and felt like they were on top of something flat and smooth. Not a hint of fiber. I scratched and tapped at them and my impression was that they were a patch to hold that gelcoat from pealing up and protect the still smooth carbon/glass matrix. No hint of fibers at all. I would have boxed it right up.
We'll have to wait and see what Este says. I hope I don't have to wait until Monday. I will post when I have some facts.
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Hopefully tomorrow I will hear back from Estey or Este from Fish Eye Scuba tomorrow or next week. They still have the tank there. As for the resin patches, they looked and felt like they were on top of something flat and smooth. Not a hint of fiber. I scratched and tapped at them and my impression was that they were a patch to hold that gelcoat from pealing up and protect the still smooth carbon/glass matrix. No hint of fibers at all. I would have boxed it right up.
We'll have to wait and see what Este says. I hope I don't have to wait until Monday. I will post when I have some facts.
Sounds like the tank is fine, and did you see Rich's reply?
I am a fireman and have been using this type of equipment ever since it came out. They ARE way tougher than you think. It is not uncommon to see maintenance of this sort. The carbon fiber is wrapped around an aluminum tank. If the CF gets scraped up, it gets patched like that to keep the damage to a minimum. If the tests are current, you should be good to go. But being as you aren't privy to the exact history, then a new inspection is not a bad idea.
Richard
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My personal opinion is dont take chances and find another tank. regardless of what is ok or normal you cannot see what could be a problem and that many patches scares me. If it was my kids Noway would I let them use it and using that same thinking no way would I tell a friend like you to use it or take a chance. Be safe and a few extra dollars for a better tank could possibly save you some grief .
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Take a better look at the big white patch. I see about 3 layers of glass cut through. The holes don't appear deeper, because someone has filled them in with some kind of resin and you can't see the bottom. The Luxifer link lists level 3 damage as deeper than 0.030". Doesn't take much to cut down 0.030".
0.030" = 0.762mm. That's really a tiny amount! I didn't realize that's all it takes to condemn a tank. Now I'm glad the tanks I got for my dad were new (old stock) and hadn't been beat up.
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The Luxifer guide (pg 37-38) also calls for using quick cure epoxy, and specifies how it is to be applied. I don't think that I have ever seen white, quick cure epoxy, only clear. If you can't see through the repair, you can't see how deep it is.
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The Luxifer guide (pg 37-38) also calls for using quick cure epoxy, and specifies how it is to be applied. I don't think that I have ever seen white, quick cure epoxy, only clear. If you can't see through the repair, you can't see how deep it is.
Very good point. Never assume, right.
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The folks at fisheyescuba.com my local fill shop finally got back to me today and the tank failed inspection and they will not fill it. So I contacted the eBay seller, tu121 and he is going to send out 2x2008 tanks that will pass inspection to make things right. We will have to see how things go. I remain optimistic.
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No surprise there. Anyone who would treat their equipment like that and obviously cared even less about the quality of the patchwork should have there head examined. All my tanks are ex fire department and NONE of them air 1% the abuse that tank has seen. Good luck on round two.
Tom
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The folks at fisheyescuba.com my local fill shop finally got back to me today and the tank failed inspection and they will not fill it. So I contacted the eBay seller, tu121 and he is going to send out 2x2008 tanks that will pass inspection to make things right. We will have to see how things go. I remain optimistic.
But there were no fibers showing ??? Sry you lost the use of a tank and hopefully you get good ones from the seller this time. But I am happy you took it to someone who knows what they are doing so you didnt have an even worse experience.
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LDP, amen to that! Better safe than sorry. I suspect that if the tanks were patched with clear or black resin that they would have passed. But I have to submit to the experts for two compelling reasons, my wife and daughter will be around any tank I own. If I hurt/ kill me; well that's my problem. However, it's not just me.
As for the experience, it's not bad. Lot of input and support here on GTA and the seller appears to be willing to make things right. Be another week or two until the Warp is here anyway so no rush just yet.
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The tanks came in last night while I was at work. Not a spot of white epoxy. There are however multiple areas, some as large as a dime of level 3 damage. :o
I spoke with the vender and he is giving me a refund.
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The tanks came in last night while I was at work. Not a spot of white epoxy. There are however multiple areas, some as large as a dime of level 3 damage. :o
I spoke with the vender and he is giving me a refund.
Did those tanks have a current hydro? If so someone might want to give the State where it was done a heads up as to what some of their licensed DOT inspections stations are passing.
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Good call. Sorry I failed to mention that these tanks were not hydro'ed. Just beat to heck. I will try to post some picks tonight.
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Keep in mind to report the seller as well. He knows EXACTLY what he is doing or there is NO WAY he would offer you 2 tanks that are merely 2 years older for one. This can be a highly dangerous situation. However, keep in mind that it DOES NOT MATTER if the gel coating is cracked, scratched or otherwise damaged as long as it does not damage what is underneath. All tanks can be re-coated for a fairly reasonable price. Ninja had a huge batch of bad 90ci tanks where the gel coating cracked. The solution was simple, they allowed the customers to send the tanks in for a new coating from a different more reliable source.
The key here is that an average 4500psi tank can easily withstand over 7500psi for safety reasons. Now that does NOT mean to EVER attempt to over-fill any of your equipment. It is merely a means of ensuring the safety of the tanks being operated in pressurized environments, high heat environments and the like.
Matt
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Photobucket is down for maintenance tonight so I'm unable to post the pictures of the exposed carbon fiber. This goes well beyond the gelcoat and fiberglass and into the carbon fibers.
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Let's see if I can't get these pictures to work this time...
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/02BD42F6-3F84-440C-AF9A-BF3C478535A7.jpg)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/31AAC201-0926-4A16-9100-07F97F2E8487.jpg)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/217B5DD9-4597-4841-9522-6DC2DC5A0B18.jpg)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/431B5B6C-D596-4247-BDFE-1E6EF45546FD.jpg)
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As I stated before, he needs to be reported immediately! That is most definitely unsafe equipment!
Matt
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Caveat emptor. Perhaps you are right. I hold no rancor. I entered into this gambit with my eyes wide open and well aware that the odds were against me getting what was advertised. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Now I have gained some experience and three useless SCBA tanks. :o
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Ok, got my refund back today. Turned it into an order for a much nicer looking yet older tank. It's the looks and the name that did it for me. It's so hard to resist a pretty tank with a great name, "Scott"
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/2ADD4172-C47B-423F-9891-CBDB9175B19A.png)
We will have to see how it turns out this time...
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Let's see if I can't get these pictures to work this time...
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/02BD42F6-3F84-440C-AF9A-BF3C478535A7.jpg)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/31AAC201-0926-4A16-9100-07F97F2E8487.jpg)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/217B5DD9-4597-4841-9522-6DC2DC5A0B18.jpg)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/431B5B6C-D596-4247-BDFE-1E6EF45546FD.jpg)
That's NASTY!!! Glad you were able to get a refund. There are a lot of expired SCBA tanks for sale on Ebay, without a single warning that they are expired. I'm thinking that some people get suckered into buying them, without knowing the potential problems.
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I would not buy old looking or damaged tanks when I bought mine off ebay. I bought a new surplus tank, but the tanks that other seller has looks really good and a great deal.
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I was tempted to buy a 2008 Drager that was never used. http://m.ebay.com/itm/231312000514?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&_mwBanner=1 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/231312000514?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&_mwBanner=1) But it's $100 more with shipping etc. but I'm already over budget buying a Warp, scope, SCBA, fill station/adapter, pellets, a chrono and still have to afford a bipod or tripod, a case or good bag. Really stretching my wife's patience already so saving $100 affords me a little more peace at home.
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I got the same tank from same source. Mine is in really good shape, so just for a good rate on e bay they/seller should replace it for you. The local fire dept. just sold and I missed it about 100 of these tanks for 20 bucks apiece. So the seller is still making a profit. Text em thru ebay and send a pick of the tank.
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$20 apiece?! Argh! That would have been a great buy. How do people hear about these things. I wish I could afford 2 good tanks and have a cascade system. Finding a deal like $20 a pop would sure work.
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DHS is sending money to fire dept. to upgrade and even those without the fed money are selling them. Ck with all your fire dept.S and talk to the chief for a tank, for a donation. I have dibbs on a couple of alum tanks ,4500 psi ,are do, to go soon. Chief said he would take scrap wt. price for the couple he had left. Look brand new.
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Very pleased with the new (to me) tank. I will be taking it to get hydro'ed Monday at the latest.
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/5676CC8F-760F-4680-B2DC-3096700B711F.jpg)
It's so nice, especially after all those others.
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Excellent! Now you won't need disguise to leave the house. ;)
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I would send it back.
Tanks DO get visuals. With every 5 yr hydrotest they are also visually inspected.
The aluminun "tank" is only a thin bladder wrapped with carbon fiber to give it strength. The thin aluminum's function is identical to the tube in a bicycle tire. It seals the pressure (but it can't hold the pressure by itself). Try to pressurize a tube without a tire around it (or the aluminum "tank" without the Carbon Fiber) for the hoop strength, and it will blow up like a balloon. Bottom line, DON'T rely on the aluminun for the strength if the Carbon Fiber is damaged.
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Great analogy, Joe. Say what you will about the seller, he responded quickly to my complaints and returned my money quickly without any games. I really like the Scott tank. My local dive shop opens at noon today. So I'll take the tank in for a Hydro and a fill after I mow the lawn.
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The roller coaster ride continues...
I poured the packing peanuts out of the box that my Scott SCBA came in and found a packing slip with a surprise on it. I ordered an SCBA with a 2008 manufacture date and I thought nothing more about it but to be certain of its structural integrity. I never paid any attention to the stickers.
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i455/scottyhazzard/2682C370-6123-4811-8258-5DDE23771B16.jpg)
So pleased, it won't need a hydro until November of 2018!
Now for the downstroke- Fish Eye Scuba's Compressor is down for a week to get repairs!
Tomorrow the hospital is sending me to a class that should be close enough to Dolphin Scuba in Sacramento that I drop off my tank during lunch or after the class. They are the only other location capable of a 4500 psi fill. And yes their pump is still up and running.
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Looks like you will have air finally ;) Now you just need to get out and use all that air up ;D