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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Gear_Junkie on April 05, 2016, 05:59:38 PM
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I'm going to swap my PG2 spring for the 12 ft-lb spring in my RWS 34. I've read bad things about using Vortek's grease, so I used ARH tar on the spring when installed the PG2 kit. Now that I'm going to pull the kit apart, what are the going thoughts on using moly instead of tar on the spring?
Thanks.
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By all accounts the carrier in moly is combustible. I'd expect the spring will be slinging excess for a long time and that will result in either dieseling or detonation. Tar stays put better than moly and it's made specifically for spring dampening...
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I am interested in how your swap goes. I wish i had installed a 12lb kit in my HW95 to begin with, but at this point i am not going to switch it unless some failure requires repair or someone persuades me that it really makes a difference.
Do you have access to a chronograph to record numbers before and after?
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Those are good points, Steve. However, if I use a very light coat, I would think that if any moly is slung onto the chamber wall it would get wiped away by the seal and stay out of the compression side of the chamber. I don't know, though???
Also, I can definitely post results between the PG2 kit and the 12ftlb kit. Of course, I should use tar on the spring if I want to have as close a comparison as possible... what to do??? :-\
Thanks!
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I would put a light coat of tar on any spring coils which are exposed. But light means light.
I am looking forward to your review and comparison. I currently have a HW95 .177 shooting 15.3+fpe. Knowing what i now know i would have preferred to go the 12lb kit route. Are you buying just a 12lb spring or someone's 12lb kit?
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I would put a light coat on any spring coils which are exposed. But light means light.
I am looking forward to your review and comparison. I currently have a HW95 .177 shooting 15.3+fpe. Knowing what i now know i would have preferred to go the 12lb kit route. Are you buying just a 12lb spring or someone's 12lb kit?
I already have the PG2 kit, so I just bought the 12ftlb spring directly from Vortek. I'm a little worried about getting the top hat off the PG2 spring without destroying it. Pulling the rear guide off isn't that big of a deal, but the top hat seems like it is on VERY tight.
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I am not familiar with RWS or its equivalent PG2 kit setup? Mine had a rear plastic outter sleave and inner guide and front metal guide which readily came off. But that was on a HW95. Do you have pictures of the kit and what you're talking about?
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I would not use Tar on a Vortek kit. One of the reasons the outer guide was developed was so you do not need to rely on thick lubes to dampen the spring, There are other benefits to like less sensitivity to temperature. IMHO a light coating on the spring to prevent corrosion is all that is needed, Less is more..
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I'm going to swap my PG2 spring for the 12 ft-lb spring in my RWS 34. I've read bad things about using Vortek's grease, so I used ARH tar on the spring when installed the PG2 kit. Now that I'm going to pull the kit apart, what are the going thoughts on using moly instead of tar on the spring?
Thanks.
Years ago one of the changes made to minimize temperature induced poi shifting was to replace the "tar" on the spring with a thin film of the same molly paste used to lube the piston at that time. Changing to a thin coat of the molly paste did help when there was a 30 degree temperature shift during a shooting session like we often had for early spring and late fall shooting. As far as I know my brother still uses only molly paste for his internal lubing and has been doing so for a couple decades now. I stumbled upon this decades ago at an early spring field target match when the sight-in was done during snow flurries but the temp rose to the mid 50s during the match. Both my brother and I were shooting that match and about 3/4 through we both started missing more targets than usual. Shooting at some leaves between lanes we found that we both had a 1" poi shift at only 20 yards!
The issue with "tar" is that it's made rather viscous so it will cling to the spring coils through the shot cycle since a lot of folks use "slathered on tar" to dampen spring twang and enough "tar" to dampen twang is also enough so that the changes in viscosity due to temperature shifting also affects the speed of the piston. I've moved completely away from "dieseling petro based lubes" completely and use only Krytox lubes for my R9 & HW95 as the viscosity of these "space station lubes" are less affected by shifting temps.
Anywhoo.....IMHO...the only purpose for lubing a spring is to break metal to metal contact with the ID of the piston during the shot cycle and it takes very little lube to accomplish this, especially molly paste. LOL....even if excess molly paste were on the spring coils and some got slung onto the receiver ID it would be no different than the molly paste that's applied to the piston and piston seal for those who prefer the "old school approach" to springer lubing. Even when I used "tar" to lube my springs this is what an application looked like.......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/82016/1452301719_95065381_SpringKit4.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=82049)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/82016/1452301716_1431560373_SpringKit2.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=82048)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
No globs of tar and no (well, almost no) "strings between the coils"! basically, the coils were just barely "painted black"
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I used very light coat of Ultimox #226 in both my Vorteked rifles and it is a superior lube for that application
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I have used a thin coat of moly on the springs from many Vortek and JM tune kits.
Never get any dieseling.
R
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i've only ever used moly on my vortek kits. I paint a light coat of it onto the spring, piston, etc, and no problems after several thousand shots.
I use DuPont M77, it is silicone based.
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Hi there,
I have only used the vortek grease which I think is some sort of Teflon synthetic. It was nice an tacky like euro tar. I haven't had any issues with it yet, and not sure what issues people are seeing. I would think the heavy tar on the spring would end up inside the outer sleeve and that would bog things down. I have kept the vortek lubes in his kits and ARH lubes in his.
The last 12 ft lb vortek I installed in a Hw 95 I used vortek lube on spring, guides, piston seal, and moly on the skirt. It is sweet buttery smooth, easy cocking, be tough to improve it really,
Take care
💀
Jason G
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Like Jason, I've been using the vortek Grease on my springs and guides without a second thought. I'm very happy with the results. I've experienced no problems.
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I have my first Vortek kit on its way, It's for my Diana 34. I ordered the moly lube from Vortek to go with it. Wondering why I've read so many people say not to use the Vortek grease that's included in the kit. Tom from Vortek told me to use both, and They can be used together.
I wish there was a definitive answer...Tar? Moly? Krytox, etc etc
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I use the moly on the piston and side of seal -- a very light coat, just enough so you can see it. Use the supplied Grease on spring and guide.
You want nothing on face of seal. Clean receiver tube thoroughly with goo gone before installing.
Not surprisingly there are many varying opinions on this subject.
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Any one try coating a spring in truck bed liner ? ... ok i have a hatsan 125 .25 in need of a tear down , ill get back to you :)
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The Vortek supplied grease is fine. I used it in the first RWS34 I installed a Vortek kit in (with no other lubes) two years ago and it is working great still today. I have also used the Vortek grease one a number of other rifles with moly behind the piston seal. All work great. I would not use traditional tar with the Vortek Kit. I have never heard anything bad about the Vortek lube and I check this website and a couple of others everyday. Seems like I would have heard about it. I would use the Vortek lube with moly or use Krytox.
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Any one try coating a spring in truck bed liner ? ... ok i have a hatsan 125 .25 in need of a tear down , ill get back to you :)
Why?
And tar is used only to de-twang spring to piston contact/sound. People sleave the inside walls of pistons and light tarring beforehand will keep it together and deaden what otherwise would be metal to metal contact.
Having said that i only used Vortek supllied grease myself, and very little of it. And i did not have any tar on hand so i did not have to think to much.
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Truck Bed Liner ????? What could possibly go wrong ??? :-0
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Any one try coating a spring in truck bed liner ? ... ok i have a hatsan 125 .25 in need of a tear down , ill get back to you :)
Are you talking about something that dries like rubber, not paint. If so experimenting with an old B3 before and after might be worth the trouble. I've wonder if a spring had something like wire insulation on it what would happen.
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;) The black tar grease is applied sparingly to the spring with light stringing between the coils . The purpose is to dampen the spring oscillations during the shot cycle. The sleeve and tight spring guide in the Vortek kit do the same job
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Thanks for all of the input guys! I think I might try out a light coat of moly on the spring, just to see how it works out. If I notice any buzz (which I can't imaging given the inner and outer guides), I'll go back to the tar.
Thanks!
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Thanks for all of the input guys! I think I might try out a light coat of moly on the spring, just to see how it works out. If I notice any buzz (which I can't imaging given the inner and out guides), I'll go back to the tar.
Thanks!
Some folks also used a light coat of white lithium grease on them and reported good results. Other than being cheaper, no idea if long term results would be comparable to tar (or moly)...
Good luck with the alternative(s), maybe break it back down after 5-10,000 rounds and see how it did (would be very informative) :D
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I have been on the lookout for something comparable to the yellowish tacky grease Vortek uses. It seems stickier than NLGI 2 and doesn't tend to fling as much as the Euro tar. They wouldn't tell me anything other than Teflon based synthetic. I did find that John Deere offers tubes of a non-tox Teflon base synthetic and is odorless , will not run drip etc. As seen here, on my last trip to the dealer tried to get some but they didn't carry it. I am going to order some and see what it does,
http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html (http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html)
💀
Jason G
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I have been on the lookout for something comparable to the yellowish tacky grease Vortek uses. It seems stickier than NLGI 2 and doesn't tend to fling as much as the Euro tar. They wouldn't tell me anything other than Teflon based synthetic. I did find that John Deere offers tubes of a non-tox Teflon base synthetic and is odorless , will not run drip etc. As seen here, on my last trip to the dealer tried to get some but they didn't carry it. I am going to order some and see what it does,
http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html (http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html)
💀
Jason G
Plain Jane Krytox is Dupont's liquefied Teflon...
Only a few factors to consider no matter what gets used, will it stay, what's the additive(s) effect, and after 10,000+ shots or 20 years what is left of it and did it have any detrimental effects on the gun. I know Krytox has been around a long time but I don't think anyone has just stuck it in there and peeked under the hood after 10 or 20 years so I tend to shy away from it for that reason, and only that reason (otherwise Ed has done some trail blazing and very well detailed work with it that I believe in time will become the gold standard --- thank you for that Ed!).
BTW, they do make Krytox with a "high pressure" additive. Guess what that is? Moly. Fortifies my belief that Moly is more appropriate where high load exists, especially in the presence of higher temperatures (cocking, and end of shot cycle gas compression).
Everyone has a different opinion on this, this one's just my $.02 worth - maybe a lot less ;)
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FWIW I have been using synthetic lubricants in one form or another for over 40 years and most of the toys that I used it in or on were used and abused extensively so I tend to trust the synthetic lubes
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White lithium grease worked well on my BSA Polaris.
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I have been on the lookout for something comparable to the yellowish tacky grease Vortek uses. It seems stickier than NLGI 2 and doesn't tend to fling as much as the Euro tar. They wouldn't tell me anything other than Teflon based synthetic. I did find that John Deere offers tubes of a non-tox Teflon base synthetic and is odorless , will not run drip etc. As seen here, on my last trip to the dealer tried to get some but they didn't carry it. I am going to order some and see what it does,
http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html (http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html)
💀
Jason,
I would assume that this stuff would work well too,
http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-HD-Moly-Gun-Grease-TY6333.html (http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-HD-Moly-Gun-Grease-TY6333.html) :D
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I have been on the lookout for something comparable to the yellowish tacky grease Vortek uses. It seems stickier than NLGI 2 and doesn't tend to fling as much as the Euro tar. They wouldn't tell me anything other than Teflon based synthetic. I did find that John Deere offers tubes of a non-tox Teflon base synthetic and is odorless , will not run drip etc. As seen here, on my last trip to the dealer tried to get some but they didn't carry it. I am going to order some and see what it does,
http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html (http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html)
💀
Jason,
I would assume that this stuff would work well too,
http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-HD-Moly-Gun-Grease-TY6333.html (http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-HD-Moly-Gun-Grease-TY6333.html) :D
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I seen that one too, probably work ok who knows, but probably wouldn't taste as good.....lol......the rifles I have done with the Vortek lubes are real easy to clean up when you tear them down, if that really means anything, the tars and moly's seem to take more effort. I think for the most part if you have a real good piston seal, most of your lube "should" stay behind them. But different styles of seals may migrate more lube past.
Jason G
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As seen here, on my last trip to the dealer tried to get some but they didn't carry it. I am going to order some and see what it does,
http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html (http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Multi-Purpose-Extreme-Duty-Synthetic-Gun-Grease-TY25744.html)
💀
Jason,
I would assume that this stuff would work well too,
http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-HD-Moly-Gun-Grease-TY6333.html (http://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Special-Purpose-HD-Moly-Gun-Grease-TY6333.html) :D
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