GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Motorhead on March 12, 2016, 02:51:36 AM
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:o Interesting question being the last 2 or so years they have been out most have found there generally tuned quite conservatively with those in the USA market being 11-13 ft lb power rifles with most in my findings on the lower side of this range.
Had a tune job request that had me revisit the potential of the platform to get a baseline on NON OEM spec springs to get a handle on going after a specific tune.
While i am not going to disclose specifics, will say that the OEM spring is an @ .129/.130" wire spring with modest pre-load.
Test went with a .120" wire spring tho much greater pre-load. * This fitted to a custom spring guide.
:o :o :o Wow ... shooting a JSB 8.4 pellet velocity was 960 fps at 17.27 ft lbs power !!!
Smooth shot cycle tho VERY snappy.
Point being & reason to share, The LGV / LGU platform with it's bore & stroke can make a lot more power than they come set from factory.
FYI & nothing more ;)
Scott
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Thanks for the Information, I have a Maccari spring that I have been debating about putting in it measures 33 coils x .125 wire .562 ID
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Scott,
Thanks for the info. The German Walter website talks about a 16 joule version and a 23 joule version. Not sure what that works out to in FPE, or what the difference in spring is. Do you think the 2 versions use the same transfer port size?
Please keep us updated on your "hot rodded" LGV. Would you expect similar gains with the .22 version? Still a smooth shooter?
Thanks,
-Y
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Actually tune we were after was less than the initial test made with the .120 wire spring.
Frankly with the smaller wire was figuring a reduction in power in spite the greater preload.
So there won't be any long term results from this post. As stated was JUST A FYI on power found that came quite unexpectedly.
That said .. on the .177 & .22 guns transfer size has been the same. With such a dramatic power increase found with the spring change IMO would NOT want a larger port due to being cautious of excessive piston to roof of comp chamber impact.
Doing the same to a .22 caliber action ... see no reason for differing results.
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Joules to FPE conversion results in 16 J ~ 11.8 FPE and 23 J ~ 17 FPE.
Sounds like FAC and Non FAC versions of the same model.
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Joules to FPE conversion results in 16 J ~ 11.8 FPE and 23 J ~ 17 FPE.
Sounds like FAC and Non FAC versions of the same model.
Interesting that we have not seen or heard of the FAC power model here in the states ???
Having tuned dozens of these over the past couple years, NONE have been at the higher output.
So sounds like I just stumbled blindly in that realm of the FAC set up ... O'well as we were ::)
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Actually tune we were after was less than the initial test made with the .120 wire spring.
Frankly with the smaller wire was figuring a reduction in power in spite the greater preload.
So there won't be any long term results from this post. As stated was JUST A FYI on power found that came quite unexpectedly.
That said .. on the .177 & .22 guns transfer size has been the same. With such a dramatic power increase found with the spring change IMO would NOT want a larger port due to being cautious of excessive piston to roof of comp chamber impact.
Doing the same to a .22 caliber action ... see no reason for differing results.
Scott - do you think the transfer port is oversized to begin with (especially for the .177)?
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Actually tune we were after was less than the initial test made with the .120 wire spring.
Frankly with the smaller wire was figuring a reduction in power in spite the greater preload.
So there won't be any long term results from this post. As stated was JUST A FYI on power found that came quite unexpectedly.
That said .. on the .177 & .22 guns transfer size has been the same. With such a dramatic power increase found with the spring change IMO would NOT want a larger port due to being cautious of excessive piston to roof of comp chamber impact.
Doing the same to a .22 caliber action ... see no reason for differing results.
Scott - do you think the transfer port is oversized to begin with (especially for the .177)?
DOES NOT APPEAR SO ... shot cycle vibration seems to be very good with the piston coming to rest on a cushion of air as it should.
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The question on many of our minds right now is did you turn an accurate rifle into a scattergun?
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The question on many of our minds right now is did you turn an accurate rifle into a scattergun?
what?????
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I'm still lusting over an LGV Master Ultra. I just have a hard time getting over the very poor machining on the interior of the piston. It leaves me wondering where else they cut corners on the build quality. Also, the fact that there are no aftermarket springs or seals available from Vortek or ARH is a pretty big bummer.
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Maccari makes a replacement spring for the LGV.... The 25mm Maccari 25mm seal as well as the Vortek 25 vac seal will work so I've been told
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The question on many of our minds right now is did you turn an accurate rifle into a scattergun?
Scott: +1? was it accurate? Have a friend with an LGV in .22
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Maccari makes a replacement spring for the LGV.... The 25mm Maccari 25mm seal as well as the Vortek 25 vac seal will work so I've been told
Good to know, thanks!
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As stated ... TUNE we were after was NOT at this power. So no accuracy testing was done while at this power.
But will say shot cycle remained quite low in jump & vibration tho was VERY snappy and truth be told very likely NOT as accurate as a lower power tune.
LGV's are still spring guns and follow the same rules as any other ... more power ya coax less stable is the shot cycle degrading accuracy.
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Off topic,but if the LGV piston is a drop in replacement for the TX200 piston in attempting to short stroke using the Vortek Vac25 piston seal , could this tune of the LGV show promise, reversed as it were to the TX platform? Probably a stupid question, but just read a very long thread on short stroking the TX then saw this and just made me wonder.
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No clue ...
Being Walther replacememnt parts would need to come from Umarex ( Yuck ) that effort alone tastes bitter.
If swap does work and stroke is less than a TX is stock, you wont likely find equal power ???
Tx's can when tweaked correctly make 17+ ft lbs power ... sadly there JUMP becomes excessive and they too enter the realm of a light magnum gun with only So/So accuracy.
JMO ....
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point given Scott bigger is not always better same with all things. David
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Scott,
I hope you don't mind me asking (and I'm not looking for you to give up any of your trade secrets), but what lubes did you use in what places when tuning the LGV? Did you use any tar on the spring, or did you leave it bare? Also, do you see the poor machining of the piston interior hanging up the spring at all, or affecting performance in any way? (The images that I've seen of the piston interior look like it's full of rough ridges.)
Attached is a pic of the piston interior, taken from:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1354832478/Found+these+LGV+Pictures+...quality+is+not+in+line+with+price+point (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1354832478/Found+these+LGV+Pictures+...quality+is+not+in+line+with+price+point)
Thanks!
Zack
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Pistons get spring cavity liners along with custom fitted spring guide .... Lubes are minimal.
Few other tricks in use & we're not going there.
Lol, ;)
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Pistons get spring cavity liners along with custom fitted spring guide .... Lubes are minimal.
Few other tricks in use & we're not going there.
Lol, ;)
No worries, thanks Scott!
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:o Being tune that created the POWER subject of this thread ... WAS NOT what we were after, owner of the rifle being tuned in actuality wanted a 12# power tune of better accuracy and shooting behavior that is the typical factory set up 8)
GTA long time member UGLYMIKE out in Nebraska loves his Spring piston air rifles and gets to shoot it seems when ever he likes.
Even has early hours access to a Covered weather isolated tennis court which allows some bench rest time shooting his Airguns.
This last week Mike sent me a target from his efforts shooting his Detuned Walther LGV .177 ;D
What we ended up with after the WHOA power findings changing spring & some set up specs ... was a soft tune utilizing the same spring tho much less preload. End result was a snappy & crisp +/- 12 ft lb tune that has seemed to further transform the LGV platform into one stupid accurate SPRING PISTON air gun. I mean these LGV rifles are accurate, Mikes shooting his retuned LGV is nothing short of just ridiculous :o
This pic allows reading his text notes & misc ....
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/scott_schneider1/DSCF0019_zpsnbfma1yi.jpg)
Here with back lighting some of the groups shot ... AT 30 meters these are nuts !!!! .... a quality PCP and proficient shooter would have trouble besting them ;)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/scott_schneider1/DSCF0020_zpsiquybzkl.jpg)
Dang Mike, nice shooting.
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Some excellent shooting!
I have a comp ultra in 177 and I love it. It is without doubt my favourite break barrel and it is crazy accurate. It is set at just over 11 ft / lbs and it is lovely to shoot. I have a zeroing target set out at 62 yards in my garden and I can regularly hit the dead centre spinner of the target with this gun.
I know that moderators are not allowed in the US but this video does a good job of showing the gun in action anyway. All I have done to it is relubed it and added a PTFE sleeve to remove a little 'twang' that was apparent before ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UuNcrE0p9I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UuNcrE0p9I#)
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First and foremost, I want to say this. If you're not using Motorhead for all of you air gun tuning needs, you're making a mistake. Period. He called me, we talked about what I wanted, he listen more than spoke, and then went to work. I estimate my LGV .177 had +30,000 pellets thru it when it went to Motorheads house. Scott is an Airgun tuning savant IMHO.
I'm blessed to live less than a mile from an indoor tennis court on one end with batting cages and handball courts/locker rooms along a hallway. Shooting the length of the tennis court and down the hallway I have a tad over 50 meters. Heated, no wind, no distractions, and I have the place to myself, literally, at 6:00 AM. In the winter I shoot +1000 pellets a week. $120 a year membership ;)
My .22 LGV will soon be getting some "outside of the box" tuning courtesy of Motorhead.
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Some excellent shooting!
I have a comp ultra in 177 and I love it. It is without doubt my favourite break barrel and it is crazy accurate. It is set at just over 11 ft / lbs and it is lovely to shoot. I have a zeroing target set out at 62 yards in my garden and I can regularly hit the dead centre spinner of the target with this gun.
I know that moderators are not allowed in the US but this video does a good job of showing the gun in action anyway. All I have done to it is relubed it and added a PTFE sleeve to remove a little 'twang' that was apparent before ...
Neil,
What scope do you have on your LGV?
Thanks,
-Y
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Some excellent shooting!
I have a comp ultra in 177 and I love it. It is without doubt my favourite break barrel and it is crazy accurate. It is set at just over 11 ft / lbs and it is lovely to shoot. I have a zeroing target set out at 62 yards in my garden and I can regularly hit the dead centre spinner of the target with this gun.
I know that moderators are not allowed in the US but this video does a good job of showing the gun in action anyway. All I have done to it is relubed it and added a PTFE sleeve to remove a little 'twang' that was apparent before ...
Neil,
What scope do you have on your LGV?
Thanks,
-Y
A cheapo one
Nikko Stirling Mountmaster 6x40
Nice clear glass and suits the gun for me :)
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Here's some crony numbers after 500 shot break in.
AA 8.4 gr 4.51mm JSB 8.4gr 4.52mm FTT 8.64gr. 4.51mm
1. 813 1. 815.2 1. 814
2. 813 2. 817.6 2. 817.6
3. 819.5 3. 818.8 3. 818.8
4. 822.0 4. 807.2 4. 808.4
5. 819.0 5. 811.4 5. 811.5
6. 819.5 6. 814.7 6. 818.1
7. 815.6 7. 815.3 7. 815.3
8. 816.6 8. 814.7 8. 810.8
9. 814.2 9. 814.9 9. 808.2
10. 812.7 10. 816.8 10. 823.3
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Sweet numbers for sure!
Scott - can the rods be removed (unscrewed?) from the LGV pistons in order to hone the interior of the chamber and smooth it out? Or is this a waste of time given that you can just slip in a liner to keep the spring from hanging up on it?
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Sweet numbers for sure!
Scott - can the rods be removed (unscrewed?) from the LGV pistons in order to hone the interior of the chamber and smooth it out? Or is this a waste of time given that you can just slip in a liner to keep the spring from hanging up on it?
Zack,
Use a liner.
It also bridges the gap between compressed coils some further reducing harmonics. ( Put Spring Tar between liner & piston ) :-X Did I just give a trick away ... think I did 8)
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Sweet numbers for sure!
Scott - can the rods be removed (unscrewed?) from the LGV pistons in order to hone the interior of the chamber and smooth it out? Or is this a waste of time given that you can just slip in a liner to keep the spring from hanging up on it?
Zack,
Use a liner.
It also bridges the gap between compressed coils some further reducing harmonics. ( Put Spring Tar between liner & piston ) :-X Did I just give a trick away ... think I did 8)
hahahaha!!........................ David
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Zack,
Use a liner.
It also bridges the gap between compressed coils some further reducing harmonics. ( Put Spring Tar between liner & piston ) :-X Did I just give a trick away ... think I did 8)
Thanks Scott. It just bugs me that they machined the inside of that piston so poorly.
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( Put Spring Tar between liner & piston ) :-X Did I just give a trick away ... think I did 8)
I HAVE THE POWER!!!
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Hey Guys,
We can all agree when it comes to airgun tuning Motorhead is as good as it gets -> super nice guy too :D Thanks for that last trick ;D ;D
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The inside of the piston on my LGU looked the same as the one shown. At first, I gently thought it MAY have been an engineering trick to reduce vibration. Then I added a piston liner and found out it was by no means an engineering anything other than a manufacturing shortcut not to smooth it out.
Quote from: Motorhead on April 05, 2016, 09:56:33 PM
( Put Spring Tar between liner & piston ) :-X Did I just give a trick away
YUP ;)