GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Mtl_Biker on February 19, 2016, 10:02:10 AM
-
Is there such a thing? An air rifle that could be used for both 10-meter shooting and field target? For 10-meter the rifle should have maybe just a wee bit more than 510 or so fps and for field target up to 12 fpe if possible. For 10-meter you need a peep sight and of course for longer range field target, a scope.
I thought I'd found the ideal rifle for both... the FX Biathlon. You can put a Gehmann peep sight on it or a scope and the specs say the power level is adjustable from 7 to 36 joules (about 5 fpe to 26 fpe) and I thought that would make for the ideal do-everything gun. But alas, it turns out that the power level is adjusted to somewhere in that range at the factory and the end user is unable to change it.
So, am I dreaming, or is there any gun that would do WELL for both disciplines?
-
We have one shooter in my club that shoots his .22 GenII Marauder for HFT and indoor 10m air rifle competition.
It works for him.
-
Is there a velocity restriction in your 10 meter shooting? If not, I can personally attest to the fact that any of the spring piston FTT rifles will shoot lights out at 10 meters. The problem is that most of them, like the TX200 or HW97K don't have iron sights. I have recently purchased the HW77K, though, and it does have iron sights and the capability of taking a peep and changing the front sights, too. For FTT work, you can also scope it. Of course, this only applies if you want a springer. Can't advise you on a PCP. Best of luck, though.
-
You might look at the Crosman Challenger with target sights. It's reasonably priced and shoots very accurately at 10m with the LW barrel. Approximately 5-6 fpe. That's not really enough for FT but it is relatively easy to tweak or tune the rifle up to 12 fpe (and beyond). There are several threads on this and other forums detailing the process. Accuracy at FT power levels remains a truly superb attribute of this rifle...and the factory stock is adjustable. Considering the OEM offering operates on a 2000# fill, one really can get by with a hand pump fairly easily. Hope you find your objective.
Craig
-
We have one shooter in my club that shoots his .22 GenII Marauder for HFT and indoor 10m air rifle competition.
It works for him.
10-meter competition shooting requires .177 (and scopes are not allowed).
-
Is there a velocity restriction in your 10 meter shooting? If not, I can personally attest to the fact that any of the spring piston FTT rifles will shoot lights out at 10 meters. The problem is that most of them, like the TX200 or HW97K don't have iron sights. I have recently purchased the HW77K, though, and it does have iron sights and the capability of taking a peep and changing the front sights, too. For FTT work, you can also scope it. Of course, this only applies if you want a springer. Can't advise you on a PCP. Best of luck, though.
You're right about needing sights. I don't mind a springer but I think probably a PCP would have the advantage in 10-meter due to lack of recoil. The "true" 10-meter rifles have no recoil and are all somewhere around 510 fps or so, but I don't think there's a limit. Currently I'm shooting 10 meter with my HW30S but being a break barrel it's not going to be competitive (not that *I* am at this point either!).
-
You might look at the Crosman Challenger with target sights. It's reasonably priced and shoots very accurately at 10m with the LW barrel. Approximately 5-6 fpe. That's not really enough for FT but it is relatively easy to tweak or tune the rifle up to 12 fpe (and beyond). There are several threads on this and other forums detailing the process. Accuracy at FT power levels remains a truly superb attribute of this rifle...and the factory stock is adjustable. Considering the OEM offering operates on a 2000# fill, one really can get by with a hand pump fairly easily. Hope you find your objective.
Craig
Thanks. But it doesn't look like I will find my objective. The ideal gun probably doesn't exist.
So to make the most of my budget, I might look at a HW97K for field target, etc. and try to find a good used *dedicated* 10-meter air rifle such as an FWB 603 or something. Although I really do like the AA S510 PCP. SIGH
Now where did I put my winning lottery ticket????
-
Used to plink and pest, outdoors, with my FWB 300s Mini, RWS6Ms/75. Still do with a '70s pre safety HW50S.
-
I think the air arms T 200 is perfect comes with 10 meter match sites has a scope rail and the power can easily be upped for field target shooting. they have one with adjustable cheek rest for the scope
-
We have one shooter in my club that shoots his .22 GenII Marauder for HFT and indoor 10m air rifle competition.
It works for him.
10-meter competition shooting requires .177 (and scopes are not allowed).
This is not Olympic Competition.
It is in the clubhouse for beers.
Here in the USA we still have the right to do whatever pleases us.
Including making our own rules for our own informal shoots.
You play in our house, you play by our rules.
-
Thanks. But it doesn't look like I will find my objective. The ideal gun probably doesn't exist.
So to make the most of my budget, I might look at a HW97K for field target, etc. and try to find a good used *dedicated* 10-meter air rifle such as an FWB 603 or something. Although I really do like the AA S510 PCP. SIGH
Now where did I put my winning lottery ticket????
Perhaps I can help you.
To ME, that rifle does exist: I could shoot FT, Match, plus Silhouette, with the same rifle: a short stroked Diana 54
In essence, it is just like a FWB300 on steroids.
Yielding a little under 12 ft-lbs with JSB's Exacts or AA's Field Diabolo 8.44's, it shoots with Match precision the S-100's from JSB or the RWS UltraMag (for optimum hole cutting ability).
For Match, the muzzle piece can be changed for one that allows korntunnels, and the rear sight to use is a Williams FP TK AG with Micro Sight differential plates inserted.
For FT, you just put a good scope on it (I use a Sightron SIII 10-50X60 FT IRMOA-H)
For silhouette, I use the same scope; for reduced distance silhouette (6 meters) I use a close focus range adapter from Leupold mounted on a scope cap.
Accuracy, precision, reliability and consistency are hard to beat.
Sure there are better tools for EACH discipline, but ONE that does it ALL is right there.
The REAL catch here is not the rifle, but the range. Ranges that have target carriers with built in backstops MAY not be stout enough to withstand constant battering from guns in the 12 ft-lbs region. Or ranges that have electronic scoring machines may not be capable of scoring the shot with the velocity of the pellet as it passes by the scoring "hole".
But if you really want to be a "One gun man", it IS possible.
;)
Keep well and shoot straight!
Hector Medina
-
The Marauder can be (more or less) fitted with a front aperture iron sight. See my avatar. It is an Armada but the shroud is the same. The best and most affordable rear aperture sight I found was the Airforce. When I played with this idea a number of years ago on the Marauder, I made a shrink fitted adapter to fit the Airforce front sight as well. If I were to do this again, I'd do something a bit more like what I did to the Armada. That is insert a fixed extension into the front cap. Then make my adapter to clamp onto this extension.
The one thing that is a bit of a problem with this set-up is that you have to be very careful not to tweak the front sight, as the shroud tube (even if pinned) will rotate slightly. This changes the point of impact significantly.
If you drill an access hole in the stock for the metering screw, it is quite easy to quickly change power levels in the Marauder. You don't need to mess with the hammer and preload screws. Just count the turns accurately.
As you probably know, you will need to sight-in again each time you change sights.
(Note: My Armada is wearing rather expensive iron sights. The front is the Stallings Machine Right Sight with adjustable aperture, and the rear is the PNW with a Gehmann adjustable aperture. The whole thing is to try to duplicate my highpower space-gun match rifle set-up. The sights are the same ones.)
(http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=80194)
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGeWbDZtmeY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGeWbDZtmeY)
This probably isn't a gun you would want, but the video shows its very doable to adjust from 12 fpe to 28+. I could easily make a jet to set the rifle down to 5-7fpe as well. You can put this bench gun into a FT chassis. I practice offhand for FT at 12 fpe. I have been shooting this setup since last year before the Benchrest Nationals with great success. I shot one rifle for all 3 power classes....I finished 2nd in LV, 2nd in HV, 4th in Open, and 2nd overall 3 gun aggregate. It will shoot all power levels with no compromise.
http://www.thomasrifles.com/ft-rifle.html (http://www.thomasrifles.com/ft-rifle.html)
Mike
-
Certainly not ideal but I shoot my Crosman 1377 carbine at 10m (4pumps) and out to 50 yards (10-12 pumps). At the latter power, I'm only around 9-10fpe depending on the pellet (JSB EXact or Exact Heavy). I can squeak some more power out of it with a lighter valve spring and 15 pumps.
I have a second dedicated 1377 (Powermaster 66 actually) -based gun for 10m that wears either aperture sights or a no-mag red dot. 3-4 pumps for 10m, LW barrel, very accurate. This one is for my kids.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/JMJinNC/Air%20Power/BB467465-2921-4B9A-9E4C-941A95A945F4_zpsj6slxj0d.jpg) (http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/JMJinNC/media/Air%20Power/BB467465-2921-4B9A-9E4C-941A95A945F4_zpsj6slxj0d.jpg.html)
Here it is with aperture sights.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/JMJinNC/Air%20Power/B70902A9-9885-472F-8900-F04DFB8C90F8_zpshlcbwoum.jpg) (http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/JMJinNC/media/Air%20Power/B70902A9-9885-472F-8900-F04DFB8C90F8_zpshlcbwoum.jpg.html)
Jmj
-
I admit to not having read through this entire thread.... but I would contact Mike Niksch (michaelthomas here on the GTA) who makes the Thomas BR and FT rifles.... and ask him if he can tune the FT version down to the appropriate level for 10M.... I know for a fact he makes .177 in both 12 FPE and 20 FPE versions, and all you do is change the port size, and possibly the HS preload.... His rifles are not cheap, but if you could use one rifle and reconfigure it for both disciplines, your total cost could well be reasonable, or at least affordable.... Here is a link to his website....
http://www.thomasrifles.com/ (http://www.thomasrifles.com/)
WHOOPS!.... Sorry, Mike, I didn't notice your post.... Nice to know you can tune it down for 10M.... 8)
Bob
-
Would the Black Air Hunter be a good choice?
http://www.anschutznorthamerica.com/black-air-hunter.html (http://www.anschutznorthamerica.com/black-air-hunter.html)
E
-
Would the Black Air Hunter be a good choice?
http://www.anschutznorthamerica.com/black-air-hunter.html (http://www.anschutznorthamerica.com/black-air-hunter.html)
E
Unfortunately no. For two reasons: First of all any gun with moderator is very illegal here in Canada. Second, that one doesn't have a front sight (nor provision for adding one), which is a requirement for a little more serious 10-meter competition. It may also be a little under-powered for field target.
Beautiful looking rifle, though. SIGH
-
I admit to not having read through this entire thread.... but I would contact Mike Niksch (michaelthomas here on the GTA) who makes the Thomas BR and FT rifles.... and ask him if he can tune the FT version down to the appropriate level for 10M.... I know for a fact he makes .177 in both 12 FPE and 20 FPE versions, and all you do is change the port size, and possibly the HS preload.... His rifles are not cheap, but if you could use one rifle and reconfigure it for both disciplines, your total cost could well be reasonable, or at least affordable.... Here is a link to his website....
http://www.thomasrifles.com/ (http://www.thomasrifles.com/)
WHOOPS!.... Sorry, Mike, I didn't notice your post.... Nice to know you can tune it down for 10M.... 8)
Bob
Thanks Bob. I'll look into it, but I *think* I'd rather purchase a rifle made in Europe from a Canadian supplier than buy a US one and be hit by the absolutely terrible exchange rate these days between the Canadian and US dollars. Just for comparison sake, guns like Air Arms, Weihrauch and FX end up being a LOT less expensive here in Canada than for us to by them from the US. Like by about 40%!!!!! Not to mention the duty that would have to be paid (again) when the gun enters Canada from the US. Makes it prohibitively expensive if you ask me.
-
Certainly not ideal but I shoot my Crosman 1377 carbine at 10m (4pumps) and out to 50 yards (10-12 pumps). At the latter power, I'm only around 9-10fpe depending on the pellet (JSB EXact or Exact Heavy). I can squeak some more power out of it with a lighter valve spring and 15 pumps.
I have a second dedicated 1377 (Powermaster 66 actually) -based gun for 10m that wears either aperture sights or a no-mag red dot. 3-4 pumps for 10m, LE barrel, very accurate. This one is for my kids.
Jmj
WOW! How the heck do you get 9-10 fpe out of that gun??? I own a 1377 pistol myself and it's only shooting about 500 fps and that's with a fairly light pellet (around 8 gr).
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGeWbDZtmeY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGeWbDZtmeY)
This probably isn't a gun you would want, but the video shows its very doable to adjust from 12 fpe to 28+. I could easily make a jet to set the rifle down to 5-7fpe as well. You can put this bench gun into a FT chassis. I practice offhand for FT at 12 fpe. I have been shooting this setup since last year before the Benchrest Nationals with great success. I shot one rifle for all 3 power classes....I finished 2nd in LV, 2nd in HV, 4th in Open, and 2nd overall 3 gun aggregate. It will shoot all power levels with no compromise.
http://www.thomasrifles.com/ft-rifle.html (http://www.thomasrifles.com/ft-rifle.html)
Mike
VERY impressive, Mike!!! Wow!
I don't see any prices on your website but I imagine that this miracle of engineering is VERY expensive. Probably prohibitively so, for a Canadian who would also be hit with close to 40% foreign exchange due to the terrible value of the Canadian to US dollar. I don't doubt that I'd be able to buy a NEW Air Arms S510 AND a good used 10-meter gun (FWB, Walther, etc.) here in Canada for less money than it would cost me to get one of your guns. Plus besides the actual cost, it might be really difficult to import that gun into Canada as they have no way of determining what it actually is. "dang". So the easiest thing for the government to do here is simply to say no, it can't be imported. And regardless of the cost, I'm not willing to risk having it confiscated at the border. Too many horror stories about such things.
If I lived in the States, your product would be HIGH on my list!
(Just to give an idea of costs, if I bought an AA S510 from PyramydAir for US$1300, it would be about CAD$1800 PLUS DUTIES, compared with buying it here in Canada for CAD$1295... a savings of more than $500!!!!)
Cheers!
-
Would the Black Air Hunter be a good choice?
http://www.anschutznorthamerica.com/black-air-hunter.html (http://www.anschutznorthamerica.com/black-air-hunter.html)
E
Unfortunately no. For two reasons: First of all any gun with moderator is very illegal here in Canada. Second, that one doesn't have a front sight (nor provision for adding one), which is a requirement for a little more serious 10-meter competition. It may also be a little under-powered for field target.
Beautiful looking rifle, though. SIGH
here is the third reason it is a lot on money lol
-
Certainly not ideal but I shoot my Crosman 1377 carbine at 10m (4pumps) and out to 50 yards (10-12 pumps). At the latter power, I'm only around 9-10fpe depending on the pellet (JSB EXact or Exact Heavy). I can squeak some more power out of it with a lighter valve spring and 15 pumps.
JJ
WOW! How the heck do you get 9-10 fpe out of that gun??? I own a 1377 pistol myself and it's only shooting about 500 fps and that's with a fairly light pellet (around 8 gr).
24" barrel, FT piston & valve (ported), disco hammer spring, extended probe bolt. Shoots JSB exacts (8.44) at 705fps @ 10 pumps. Valve retains air at 12 pumps so I'm on the edge performance-wise with the stock valve spring.
The other gun yields 465fps at 3 pumps with 7 grain wadcutters. Same FT piston & ported valve, but the valve has a volume-reducing plug and lighter valve spring. Also has a longer piston stroke, but a shorter barrel.
JMJ