GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: jstewart_1981 on February 18, 2016, 09:41:38 AM
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For starters, I just shoot for a hobby but I do love to hunt. Not in to competitive shooting, just want something to be accurate if Im going to shoot it. Maybe wiht these low end guns and optics I cant get what I want. Quarter sized groups at 3 yards I would be more than satisfied. I can get that with iron sights, just not the scope. Ive always shot bb guns/pellet rifles since I was a kid, Im 34 now. I got my first gun when I was 5, carried and used them daily til I was about 14. I did not ever really think about accuracy much then. Maybe I was a good shot, luck or who knows. Shoot enough I guess that bb or pellet will finally hit the squirrel. Well things have changed. After shooting long range rifles deer hunting etc, I am all about precision.
So, here goes my question. I was at class for work about a month ago and found myself at Walmart looking at these gamo whisper rifles. I needed it like a hole in my head but I couldnt help but think man this thing has to be accurate! I bought it couldn't wait to get back home and shoot it. BOY was I mistaken. The gun shot horrible with the scope. I tried several different pellets all about the same result. Softball sized groups. I Had the gun rested, but not locked down in the sand bags. Finally took the scope off and with the iron sights I could shoot groups almost touching with same setup. I next did more research and wrote the scope off as junk. I ordered me a 3x12x44 leapers scope. Still a low end scope, $140 but had great reviews. Started shooting 2 days ago and again pretty much the same result. Yesterday I took it off and started over gun up with the mounts etc. Started shooting this time letting the gun sit loose on my shoulder and not touching with the hand I would normally use for support. at 25 yards my last group of 5 I had 4 in the same hole and the other almost touching. With all that said, what was it that I was doing wrong? The mounts maybe? Maybe just the way I was shooting the gun? I ask this because I have another gun Im going to be sighting in today and dont want it to be a nightmare.
Thanks!
Jimmy
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You discovered, on your own, how to hold a springer.
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I ordered me a 3x12x44 leapers scope. Still a low end scope, $140 but had great reviews. Started shooting 2 days ago and again pretty much the same result. Yesterday I took it off and started over gun up with the mounts etc. Started shooting this time letting the gun sit loose on my shoulder and not touching with the hand I would normally use for support. at 25 yards my last group of 5 I had 4 in the same hole and the other almost touching. With all that said, what was it that I was doing wrong? The mounts maybe? Maybe just the way I was shooting the gun? I ask this because I have another gun Im going to be sighting in today and dont want it to be a nightmare.
Thanks!
Jimmy
The sentence "Yesterday I took it off and started over gun up with the mounts etc." is a bit unclear to me. Does it mean you took the scope and mounts completely off and went back to iron sites only?
If so, maybe you can check again to be sure the mounts and scope, when put back on, are nice and tight. Not so tight that you harm the scope, but tight enough to stop any movement. I have read that if you use an Allen wrench, hold the smaller curved end in your fingers and tighten until it just starts to feel uncomfortable on your fingers, that is the red neck way to torque a scope down. The mounts can be a little tighter.
The Gamo is a hard kicking gun. It ate my friends Hawke scope in short order (they sent him an upgraded new one, no charge) and just a small movement in the scope or mounts = softball groups.
There are multiple posts on this site and others about the "artillery hold" which is the soft hold that lets the gun do its thing. I have personally found that my two slightly upper end springers (TX200 and Walther LGU) work better when I tuck them into my shoulder a little snug. Each gun is different. Each one performs better when you match it up with the pellet it functions best with.
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What I meant by that was I took it off and remounted it to make sure I didnt have anything loose anywhere. All of the screws are tight now, were still tight when I removed it. I was just making sure I didnt have any errors installing the scope the first time. I think I was pretty much doing the artillery style hold yesterday when I called it quits. It was shooting pretty impressive groups at that point so I decided it was time to quit. I just wasnt sure if it was how I was holding the gun or maybe something I had done with the mounts.
Thanks.
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I think its time to get the artilllery hold in check
Cheers
jay
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A few tips from a fellow newbie springer owner . First , do not add the scope . A new springer will "diesel" , and can damaged the scope . Get a tin of cheap pellets and shoot them all practicing the "artillery hold" , finding a repeatable hold is important . Then clean barrel (googone w/ felt pellets worked for me). Then mount and zero scope . Find a pellet the gun likes , open it start shooting and by the time its empty , your gun should be broken in and shooting fine . Patience..after you get to know your gun ,and its broken in , you'll be getting crows @45yrds with a break barrel .
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A few tips from a fellow newbie springer owner . First , do not add the scope . A new springer will "diesel" , and can damaged the scope . Get a tin of cheap pellets and shoot them all practicing the "artillery hold" , finding a repeatable hold is important . Then clean barrel (googone w/ felt pellets worked for me). Then mount and zero scope . Find a pellet the gun likes , open it start shooting and by the time its empty , your gun should be broken in and shooting fine . Patience..after you get to know your gun ,and its broken in , you'll be getting crows @45yrds with a break barrel .
Thank you I will take that into consideration. I have roughly 300 shots through it now, not sure what is considered break in.
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500 pellets through my Remington express .22 and it really smoothed out . IMHO 500-1000 pellets more or less . I can consistently hit my quarter size targets at my 12yrd indoor range (off hand/standing or kneeling). Hope this helps some .
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As above, you've begun your education on how to shoot a springer. Congrats. Do a search on hold sensitivity, artillery hold and related topics and you'll find plenty of info on how to shoot a springer. Lots of info in the European Gate, all countries, since spring piston guns have many countries of origin.
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Mostly like was how you were holding the gun. The mounts can cause a problem. The recoil of a springer is hard on scopes and they will slide back on the receiver and in the mounts. I see many knew airguns in your future. Especially if you hang around here. ;)
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As above, you've begun your education on how to shoot a springer. Congrats. Do a search on hold sensitivity, artillery hold and related topics and you'll find plenty of info on how to shoot a springer. Lots of info in the European Gate, all countries, since spring piston guns have many countries of origin.
Thank you, mam. ;)
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Many breakbarrel rifles have "droop". Nothing severe, nor is it hard to correct when mounting your scope. You want your scope mounting so that you don't have to adjust it much, from "Optical Center". Shimming or a droop compensating mount cures this. Bottom line is keep the crosshairs as close to "Optical Center" as possible.
Here is a couple videos about scope mounting that you may find helpful. The next covers "droop"..There are some good videos on airgun academy that offer good insight to new airgunners.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-20-how-to-use-trajectory-to-sight-in-a-scope/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-20-how-to-use-trajectory-to-sight-in-a-scope/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-19-how-to-compensate-for-barrel-droop/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-19-how-to-compensate-for-barrel-droop/)
And here is one on the "artillery hold" that I think all new springer owners should see:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2015/12/episode-35-artillery-hold/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2015/12/episode-35-artillery-hold/)
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Is barrel droop an issue with just a scope of iron sights and a scope? Reason I ask is because with iron sights the gun never has issues. It took some time to get it where I needed to using the scope.
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You won't see if you have a droop issue until you mount a scope to the rifle. A mounted scope starts out as parallel to the compression tube...which is where scopes are mounted. If the barrel is not parallel to the rifle compression tube...most point downward to the compression tube. It shoots way low to the scope zero point.
Again,... the 2nd video I provided should help you understand the droop/scope relationship and how to address it.
Make sure you start with your scope "optically centered" before you start. This tells you how much droop you have. For example...if you aim at the bull at 20 yards, and all your shots are tight, but are 4" low...you have some droop. At 10 yards you may see less, but it still exists. Each click of adjustmentgives you 1/4" correction at 100 yards. But this only gives you 1/16th (25%) of an inch correction at 25 yards...and only 0.025"(10%) at 10 yards. Thats just not that much. I'm sure you can see how easy it is too crank the heck out of your adjustment and erector tube. A loose erector spring lets the crosshairs move from shot to shot. Not Good. Here is the link about droop and scopes. I Hope you'll take a few and watch it.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-19-how-to-compensate-for-barrel-droop/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-19-how-to-compensate-for-barrel-droop/)
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I suspect the issue with your Springer getting better groups with the scope off, was that when you had the scope on, you had a certain cheek weld. When you took it off you probably had a slightly different cheek weld to use the iron sights. The slightest difference in pressure or hold will open up your groups. The key is consistency with hold and cheek weld when shooting a Springer. It's also possible at one point earlier on with the "bad" groups that the scope or mount were slightly moving from the Springer's double-recoil, and you corrected it with the last re-installation.
Harry
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You won't see if you have a droop issue until you mount a scope to the rifle. A mounted scope starts out as parallel to the compression tube...which is where scopes are mounted. If the barrel is not parallel to the rifle compression tube...most point downward to the compression tube. It shoots way low to the scope zero point.
Again,... the 2nd video I provided should help you understand the droop/scope relationship and how to address it.
Make sure you start with your scope "optically centered" before you start. This tells you how much droop you have. For example...if you aim at the bull at 20 yards, and all your shots are tight, but are 4" low...you have some droop. At 10 yards you may see less, but it still exists. Each click of adjustmentgives you 1/4" correction at 100 yards. But this only gives you 1/16th (25%) of an inch correction at 25 yards...and only 0.025"(10%) at 10 yards. Thats just not that much. I'm sure you can see how easy it is too crank the heck out of your adjustment and erector tube. A loose erector spring lets the crosshairs move from shot to shot. Not Good. Here is the link about droop and scopes. I Hope you'll take a few and watch it.
Just watched all 3 videos and I appreciate the info. This may very well be my issue. Im sighting in another gun today and Im going to shim it if I see im having group issues as he was stating.
Thank you sir.
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I suspect the issue with your Springer getting better groups with the scope off, was that when you had the scope on, you had a certain cheek weld. When you took it off you probably had a slightly different cheek weld to use the iron sights. The slightest difference in pressure or hold will open up your groups. The key is consistency with hold and cheek weld when shooting a Springer. It's also possible at one point earlier on with the "bad" groups that the scope or mount were slightly moving from the Springer's double-recoil, and you corrected it with the last re-installation.
Harry
I was thinking same as Harry but also (same time) while slightly difference in cheek weld there may be parallax issue. Set scope to parallax @ target distance?
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the hold and the pellets.
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I suspect the issue with your Springer getting better groups with the scope off, was that when you had the scope on, you had a certain cheek weld. When you took it off you probably had a slightly different cheek weld to use the iron sights. The slightest difference in pressure or hold will open up your groups. The key is consistency with hold and cheek weld when shooting a Springer. It's also possible at one point earlier on with the "bad" groups that the scope or mount were slightly moving from the Springer's double-recoil, and you corrected it with the last re-installation.
Harry
I was thinking same as Harry but also (same time) while slightly difference in cheek weld there may be parallax issue. Set scope to parallax @ target distance?
+1
Unless the erector tube is floating the issue sounds like parallax to me.
Parallax error on a dear rifle shooting an 8" kill zone at 100-200 yards might as well be zero, but whole different world at 20 yards!
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Many breakbarrel rifles have "droop". Nothing severe, nor is it hard to correct when mounting your scope. You want your scope mounting so that you don't have to adjust it much, from "Optical Center". Shimming or a droop compensating mount cures this. Bottom line is keep the crosshairs as close to "Optical Center" as possible.
Here is a couple videos about scope mounting that you may find helpful. The next covers "droop"..There are some good videos on airgun academy that offer good insight to new airgunners.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-20-how-to-use-trajectory-to-sight-in-a-scope/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-20-how-to-use-trajectory-to-sight-in-a-scope/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-19-how-to-compensate-for-barrel-droop/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/02/episode-19-how-to-compensate-for-barrel-droop/)
Thank you very much for this post and the attachments!
And here is one on the "artillery hold" that I think all new springer owners should see:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2015/12/episode-35-artillery-hold/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2015/12/episode-35-artillery-hold/)