GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: bmb on January 31, 2016, 12:04:42 AM
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I tend to obsess on things a while so I decided to start now. I often see the HW97K and TX200 compared. Ẃhat are your opinions on how the RWS 460 compares to them?
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The Diana (RWS) 460 is a more powerful air rifle. The HW97k (and 77k) and TX 200 are in a different league. They are the underlevers most often used by FT shooters in the springer class because of their smooth shooting cycle and accuracy. They are well-built, well-designed, and have great fit and finish, especially the Air Arms. Diana (RWS) rifles are usually a little more powerful, which can be a selling point to neophytes, but that has nothing to do with quality and accuracy.
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I've never shot a 460, but I can give you a comparison between the HW97K & TX200, both of which have been tuned.
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If you want more info on the 460 then look in the German subforum. Here is a guy tickled with his new 460
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103476.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103476.0)
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I got my 460 2 weeks ago
I hadn't shot any airguns in 20 years-up until 2 months ago when I pulled out a B3 chinese underlever and stated shooting it in the hallway
I have never been a great shot-ok with firearms-but not a good shot
The targets are at 10 meters- 33 feet
with crosman 9.5 grain lead free pellets-not pellets known for accuracy
The 460-right out of box-one dry swab down barrel-shot better than I can shoot it
These are from us putting on a new scope-bargain basement one from Natchez $29.95+$11 shipping- 3x9 32 (nice scope) and adjusting it
1)The right target-three shot group is after adjusting it a bit-but then we noticed the scope reticle wasn't "level" so we leveled it 10MM C TO C
2)and middle 2 shot group is after we had it sighted in 5MM C-C
3)the lower group middle target 3 shots- is after scope adjusted-but shooting standing freehand-much lower than resting on chair(1.5" lower but not bad for me freehand) 13MM C-C
There were no flyers-called or otherwise-it always grouped -just depended on how we adjusted scope
far left is my brother free hand shooting ignore
Granted just 33 feet-but light not particularly accurate pellets-shot by me-not a good shot-OK shot not good
My 460 will shoot awfully well-right out of box with SSP lead free 9.5 grain zinc aluminum alloy pellets-stiff skirts won't seal/bite as well in rifling
The lead free pellets are stiff-hard-certainly won't grab that shallow pellet gun rifling-
but with this rifle-no problem
It isn't really noisy but it does have a little "jump" not exactly recoil-just that spring banging forward-but the pellet must clear the barrel well before it slams forward- hits front of "chamber"
The 460 is a good accurate rifle right out of box in inexpert hands-$360 DELIVERED 2 WEEKS AGO- GRAB A GUN
Charlie
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Too heavy or too light pellets may be damaging to a spring airgun. Just something I've been told.
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Thanks for all the responses so far. Hopefully I can get my hands on a couple of these to see some of the things being mentioned.
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Never shot a 460. Have owned an HW77k (2 now) since they came out and have shot 97s and TXs. Had 48s/52s also. Had an RWS350 for a while but the extra long stroke that came along with its higher power output, wasn't worth (to me) the other operational characteristics. I find no lack of accuracy, power or effective range for dispatching any airgun quarry, up to nutria size at 75 yards, from my older Dans, Bens or HWs.
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Take a look at the german gun forum.
A poster has a very pretty HW97 laminated blue stock
she -maybe her handle is -north country gal- she lives somewhere cold/snowing etc
she just posted a 5 shot 50 YARD group .6" 15mm
at 10 yards it would be 3mm- just a tight cloverleaf
This was outside shooting in between the wind gusts-
and she just got it a few weeks ago-
hard to picture a pellet gun being much more accurate than that- in the cold wind gusts etc
Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated
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..........
Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated
Krale Schietsport (http://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/weihrauch-hw97-k.html?___from_store=nl)
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Take a look at the german gun forum.
A poster has a very pretty HW97 laminated blue stock
she -maybe her handle is -north country gal- she lives somewhere cold/snowing etc
she just posted a 5 shot 50 YARD group .6" 15mm
at 10 yards it would be 3mm- just a tight cloverleaf
This was outside shooting in between the wind gusts-
and she just got it a few weeks ago-
hard to picture a pellet gun being much more accurate than that- in the cold wind gusts etc
Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated
Yup, that's me with the 97K Blue. Can't wait for spring. :)
Seriously, though, check the current post on 50 yards accuracy expectations 177 Spring gun? for a good down to earth discussion on these guns.
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I have a walnut TX200. It is a beautiful rifle and I enjoy owning it and shooting it. I post this to say don't get hung up on under levers being the pinical of spring rifle design. I can't find they shoot any better than a break barrel of equal quality and they are much harder to load. I am not suggesting not buying one. Just don't expect anything special. If I were to buy one I would get the HW97 or TX200.
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Take a look at the german gun forum.
A poster has a very pretty HW97 laminated blue stock
she -maybe her handle is -north country gal- she lives somewhere cold/snowing etc
she just posted a 5 shot 50 YARD group .6" 15mm
at 10 yards it would be 3mm- just a tight cloverleaf
This was outside shooting in between the wind gusts-
and she just got it a few weeks ago-
hard to picture a pellet gun being much more accurate than that- in the cold wind gusts etc
Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated
North Country Gal's blue hw is what prompted my post. However, from what I have seen, all her groups are excellent no matter what the gun. I'd have to see her results from a 460 to be fair. And yes its cold by her, she lives an hour north of me.
I also was contacted by Greg about the great deal he found at Kräle Shietport. I haven't seen any of his HW shooting results.
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
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I have a walnut TX200. It is a beautiful rifle and I enjoy owning it and shooting it. I post this to say don't get hung up on under levers being the pinical of spring rifle design. I can't find they shoot any better than a break barrel of equal quality and they are much harder to load. I am not suggesting not buying one. Just don't expect anything special. If I were to buy one I would get the HW97 or TX200.
I have two underlevers already. A B3 and XS46U. Yes loading them is cumbersome. But, as far as my springers, my 46U is the easiest to consistently shoot accurately. It is awesome. However, like you said, that isn't necessarily because it is an underlever. I have two Diannas as well. I have never found myself wishing they were made any better. Which led me to wonder, how much better can the HW and TX be? Further more, how are they out of the box? Do they still need to be debured and relubed? Still benefit from a vortek kit? If so, why not buy the 460 and use the extra money for a pro tune? Hopefully I can get to a fun shoot and see some of this for myself.
Please don't think I'm questioning the answers I asked your opinions on. I just get a bit ocd sometimes. Just ask my wife.
Thanks again for all your answers.
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I have two underlevers already. A B3 and XS46U... Which led me to wonder, how much better can the HW and TX be?
Thanks again for all your answers.
You will never know just by reading about them.
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I have a walnut TX200. It is a beautiful rifle and I enjoy owning it and shooting it. I post this to say don't get hung up on under levers being the pinical of spring rifle design. I can't find they shoot any better than a break barrel of equal quality and they are much harder to load. I am not suggesting not buying one. Just don't expect anything special. If I were to buy one I would get the HW97 or TX200.
I have two underlevers already. A B3 and XS46U. Yes loading them is cumbersome. But, as far as my springers, my 46U is the easiest to consistently shoot accurately. It is awesome. However, like you said, that isn't necessarily because it is an underlever. I have two Diannas as well. I have never found myself wishing they were made any better. Which led me to wonder, how much better can the HW and TX be? Further more, how are they out of the box? Do they still need to be debured and relubed? Still benefit from a vortek kit? If so, why not buy the 460 and use the extra money for a pro tune? Hopefully I can get to a fun shoot and see some of this for myself.
Please don't think I'm questioning the answers I asked your opinions on. I just get a bit ocd sometimes. Just ask my wife.
Thanks again for all your answers.
Skip the pro tune! Get the Vortek tune kit and do it your self! Really a German made gun doesn't need to be put on a lathe and fine tuned with buttons. I have a RWS 34 and a Walther lgv and they both are well built and tight tolerance. Both are very accurate. The Walther lgv being less hold sensitive because of the design. Making it more forgiving and accurate in my hands. I've read how hold sensitive some of the underlevers can be. Ugly Mike has a HW 97 for sale. It's been pro tuned.
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BMB
Good point North Country is a good shot-that is a problem
So let's ask her-
North Country Gal
Which of your rifles is BEST-
1)Most accurate-?
2)Easiest to shoot most accurately?-least finicky hold etc
3) easiest to shoot freehand standing most accurately??
Thanks
charlie
Take a look at the german gun forum.
A poster has a very pretty HW97 laminated blue stock
she -maybe her handle is -north country gal- she lives somewhere cold/snowing etc
she just posted a 5 shot 50 YARD group .6" 15mm
at 10 yards it would be 3mm- just a tight cloverleaf
This was outside shooting in between the wind gusts-
and she just got it a few weeks ago-
hard to picture a pellet gun being much more accurate than that- in the cold wind gusts etc
Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated
North Country Gal's blue hw is what prompted my post. However, from what I have seen, all her groups are excellent no matter what the gun. I'd have to see her results from a 460 to be fair. And yes its cold by her, she lives an hour north of me.
I also was contacted by Greg about the great deal he found at Kräle Shietport. I haven't seen any of his HW shooting results.
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
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I tend to obsess on things a while so I decided to start now. I often see the HW97K and TX200 compared. Ẃhat are your opinions on how the RWS 460 compares to them?
Bradley;
IMHO, any discussion about guns needs to start with a statement or a question:
"I want to ..... with this gun" (add in there: plink, hunt, target shoot, etc.)
OR
"You need to tell us what you want the gun for?"
There is no "Universal" gun that can excel in all areas. SO, being specific always helps in getting good results.
If you are going to be OCD about anything, it should be about laying out the problem that needs to be solved as accurately and completely as you can. From there on the answers are almost obvious.
Having said that, what I can tell you about the underlevers is that most European underlevers are designed for European shooting. The LGU, the HW97, the TX-200, they are pretty much the same gun: Sliding compression chamber, same trigger, same rotating piston arrangement, same fixed barrel. The aesthetics change a little and some details here and there change a little, but, essentially it is the SAME gun, even down to some critical measurements, like bore and stroke.
Since bore and stroke are what determines your power level potential, they all have more or less the same power levels.
The D460 was designed for a different crew of people.
The 460 is essentially the 350 in an underlever format. It had its "teething" problems, but the new T-06 models are fine rifles to own, hunt, shoot and work with.
The platform is a little too powerful for the 0.177" cal. I would suggest getting a 0.22" if you want to keep it at full power.
The ONLY weak point currently in the gun's design is the compression chamber holding spring. If this is not the right one, you will get consistent troubles in the breech seal area.
SOME people object to the plastic muzzle piece, I happen to like it, but that is just me.
Do NOT buy a T-05 model as some of those had a problem with the cocking lever. Some don't, but if you can, just avoid them.
A good 460 will yield accurate 22 - 23 ft-lbs shots all day long at sea, or near sea, level. If you go up to 1000 FASL, it will still keep its performance. Dianas loose about 2.5% of ME per 1,000 feet ABOVE the FIRST 1,000 FASL.
At that power level, yes, you need to be a fair to good shot. Or you will learn how to be one if you keep at it.
Vortek and Maccari springs are good additions/modifications and further mods are possible.
It is a long gun. Not a compact by any means. The other underlevers are compacts, not the Diana.
A slender and handsome lady, IMHO.
HTH
Héctor Medina
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I like my 470th .177 a lot. I can hit 3" bulls at 100 yards consistently if I do my part and it's not too windy. The trigger is like magic. It like the 8.44 grain JSB Exact domed.
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"BMB
Good point North Country is a good shot-that is a problem
So let's ask her-
North Country Gal
Which of your rifles is BEST-
1)Most accurate-?
2)Easiest to shoot most accurately?-least finicky hold etc
3) easiest to shoot freehand standing most accurately??
Thanks
charlie"
Wow! Appreciate the confidence, though I don't know that I am worthy. I'll give it a try, though. Thanks for the nice comment, Charlie.
I think Hector's post, above, is spot on when he describes the TX200, HW97K and other springers that are designed with FT in mind. They really are the same gun, just some subtle differences and nuances as to balance, shot cycle and so on. I currently have the TX200 and two 97Ks - the standard and the Blue and just ordered a TX200 HC and a 77K (which I will use, exclusively for iron sight shooting). All are essentially 35-50 yard target guns for me. Some, like the TX200 and the Blue 97K will be used solely from the bench and, some, like the standard 97K, the TX200 HC and the 77K will see double duty for bench and offhand work. Yes, it seems like a lot of duplication, but, remember, there are two us shooting. My husband like to shoot, too.
Again, as per Hector's post, how do plan to use an under lever? I am a target shooter, though and through. We don't hunt, anymore, so we don't need the power. Most of our shooting is at our range, so we don't carry guns, much, either. Weight is only an issue for my offhand shooting. If I had to carry any of these guns all day in the woods, I'd hire someone to carry for me. :)
1. Accuracy
What minuscule difference in accuracy there is with these guns is more a matter of variation with an individual gun than the brand or
model. If any of them deliver less than outstanding accuracy, it's me having a bad shooting day, the wind or I forgot to check for screw
tightness and so on.
2. I treat all my guns as individuals and work out holds that work best with each gun. These are all heavy guns, so relative to our lighter
springers, I don't regard any of them as particularly hold fussy. Anyone who is springer savvy will find them easy to shoot.
3. For offhand work, I prefer to keep gun weight below 9 pounds and much prefer a gun that is not too muzzle heavy. Love the TX, but
very hard for me to shoot, offhand, for any length of time with all that weight, forward. That's why I will be adding the TX HC to the
herd. It's also why I use our standard 97K for offhand work.
If you stood me in a corner and threatened to cut me off of coffee and chocolate until I named my favorite gun for 50 yard target work ... it would have to be my standard 97K. I can shoot it form any position, comfortably, and I just like its user friendly features.
Again, as per Hector's excellent post, you need to get specific about your uses. As you can see, my shooting is relatively narrow in focus.
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{snip}
North Country Gal's blue hw is what prompted my post. However, from what I have seen, all her groups are excellent no matter what the gun. I'd have to see her results from a 460 to be fair. And yes its cold by her, she lives an hour north of me.
I also was contacted by Greg about the great deal he found at Kräle Shietport. I haven't seen any of his HW shooting results.
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
I saw my name, eh? I'm still in the learnin' phase with my 97K. It was sunny and warm but kinda' breezy over the weekend. Sunday afternoon, I set up the chrony and did some 10 shot groups at 30 yards in the backyard. This was the best group:
(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac325/Oldgringo/HPIM3661.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/user/Oldgringo/media/HPIM3661.jpg.html)
This measured a rough 1/2" out to out using AA 8.44 gr. Field Diabolo pellets in the 4.52 head size. It was chronied at 824.2 AV. with an SD of 9.1.
Another target was almost as good, group wise using H&N FTT with 4. 51 head size. While the H&N group had a flyer (me ?), the numbers were considerably better at 839.3 AV and SD of 3.8. The jury is still out on pellets on my 97K. and it'll be a while before I can shoot again. I had orthopedic surgery on my left hand yesterday and it is wrapped up/ splinted, looks like a club and hurts like a 'sombe'. :'(
As for Krale Schietsport, OUTSTANDING! :D :D :D
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Nice shooting, Greg. That's a worthy 97K group for sure. Hope you heal up fast. Take care.
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Nice shooting, Greg. That's a worthy 97K group for sure. Hope you heal up fast. Take care.
Thank you...... :D
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Old Gringo
Great shooting! Hope you heal quickly.
Quick question
I just checked Krale Schie…
Their price on the HW97 -plain wood stock
is 360E but outside the EU it is just 297E since they deduct the VAT -
so about $330 current rate.
How much was shipping to TX(I'm outside New Orleans-so it would be the same)
They show price in KG
10kg=60E but a rifle is so long bulky -can't imagine it wouldn't be more than $70 ??
Thanks
Charlie
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Old Gringo
Great shooting! Hope you heal quickly.
Quick question
I just checked Krale Schie…
Their price on the HW97 -plain wood stock
is 360E but outside the EU it is just 297E since they deduct the VAT -
so about $330 current rate.
How much was shipping to TX(I'm outside New Orleans-so it would be the same)
They show price in KG
10kg=60E but a rifle is so long bulky -can't imagine it wouldn't be more than $70 ??
Thanks
Charlie
Your best bet is to go through the drill of ordering it. You'll run across a $61 (?) shipping charge. What you won't see is the 3-4% non-domestic charge your CC will charge you and you won't see the 1.10 (+/-) currency conversion charge until you get your bill or monitor your CC account.
Just go through the ordering drill. You'll get to a Euro bottom line. You can stop there if you wish.
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Got it-
so another $15 to the CC folks-good to know
Thanks
Charlie
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I was hearing there were some good deals in air guns across the sea so I asked about the cost of a TX 200 HC in American dollars and here is the response I received. I also asked about shipping it to the great state of Texas!
At Pyramyd Air:
A Beech is 629.99 at
Walnut is 729.99
Shipping Free
Hello Alex,
The price of this is € 739,00 for a walnut version and € 630,00 for a beech version. The cost of shipping to the US is € 61.94.
Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Gerrit Krale
Krale Schietsport
Burg. v/d Walstraat 19
7951AK Staphorst
T 0522 461284
F 084 7391543
E gerrit@krale-schietsport.nl
I www.krale-schietsport.nl (http://www.krale-schietsport.nl)
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Wow, thanks for all the responses.
Greg, hope you heal well and fast. Nice shooting.
I don't currently hunt and if I did my .20 sheridan would be my choice.
I would be using it for bench duty target shooting. 10 yards to as far as I can accurately shoot it. The longer the range the less opportunities I have. As far as power, if I bought a 460 I would go .177 and put a softer spring kit in it.
I guess my main curiosity is about overall quality/value. Is one so much better that even a novice would notice the difference?
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I was hearing there were some good deals in air guns across the sea so I asked about the cost of a TX 200 HC in American dollars and here is the response I received. I also asked about shipping it to the great state of Texas!
At Pyramyd Air:
A Beech is 629.99 at
Walnut is 729.99
Shipping Free
Hello Alex,
The price of this is € 739,00 for a walnut version and € 630,00 for a beech version. The cost of shipping to the US is € 61.94.
Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Gerrit Krale
Krale Schietsport
Burg. v/d Walstraat 19
7951AK Staphorst
T 0522 461284
F 084 7391543
E gerrit@krale-schietsport.nl
I www.krale-schietsport.nl (http://www.krale-schietsport.nl)
The Beeman HW97k in beech however is $630 at Pyramid Air. At Krale Schietsport it is 360 euro, say $400. So that's a different story.
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And the HW97 is listed at 360 E
But once you click USA BUYER
The VAT of 63 E is deducted
so it is 297 E- or 1.1x 300=$330
Plus the 3-4% credit card fee for not domestic $15
so about $330+$15 non domestic CC + $65(S)= $410 delivered
AT LEAST $200 less delivered
Now impossible to return it-but for $210 I would take that chance every time
Not as if it is a low end rifle
This rifle-should shoot just fine right out of the box
My 460 -shot better than I can-after just running one dry swab down barrel-and loading it with cheap light lead free pellets
I didn't check screws -nothing-just made sure the barrel wasn't obstructed-and bang bang bang
After I checked the screws-they were all FIRMLY seated-
And HW97s are considered a Slightly higher end than RWS-DIANA??
So $200 is easily worth "no after the sale hands on support"-safe bet they will email support-
My next SS-2nd wednesday of month-is very close to being $410 short on arrival
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I have no ties to this company but Krale has been voted the best supplier in The Netherlands for the 3rd consecutive year by the best known Dutch airgunners forum (http://www.luchtbuks.net/index.php?showtopic=101451&view=findpost&p=842795).
And who needs warranty on a Weihrauch???? This is not your average chinese production quality and quality control. :) You might be very unlucky and have transport damage, but trust me, they pack their stuff well. Not likely.
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I have no ties to this company but Krale has been voted the best supplier in The Netherlands for the 3rd consecutive year by the best known Dutch airgunners forum (http://www.luchtbuks.net/index.php?showtopic=101451&view=findpost&p=842795).
And who needs warranty on a Weihrauch???? This is not your average chinese production quality and quality control. :) You might be very unlucky and have transport damage, but trust me, they pack their stuff well. Not likely.
10-4 on the packaging.
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Krale
Surprising to USA-E-INS like me
KRALE is a BIG TIME fireams dealer-all sorts of firearms-"hi cap autos" "Assault Rifles" everything you would find in a Texas gun dealer
but a wider variety-
lotta $3500 anschutz 22's etc
$1300 Sig 226's etc
but plenty of S&W's too
HUGE variety
Obviously they speak gun