GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Oneshotwillie on January 21, 2016, 07:08:54 PM
-
Spring Twang, what have some of you used as a shim/wrapping of the spring trying to eliminate the twang from your springer?
Springrrr, thank you, I am waiting on a battery for my caliper so I can check the thickness of a coke can!
Thanks in advance to those with a suggestion!
-
Plastic soda bottle sleeve inside spring cavity of piston can work.
Ideally a better fitted spring guide to I.D. is the correct way however.
-
The first step (for me) in eliminating twang is to polish both ends of the spring. I do this with wet or dry sandpaper on a flat under water. 150 grit takes it pretty quickly. You may polish with finer grits if desired. A bit of moly completes the job.
I string a bit of sticky grease from coil to coil. It will migrate along the spring and damp any residual twang. Guns which I have done this to do not twang.
A properly fitted spring guide is a plus.
By the way, a Coke can is about 0.004" thick. Since I have a dial caliper my batteries don't die. A vernier caliper is good, too.
-
Thank you Motorhead and Roadworth, My guides fit tight and I polished the ends of the springs yesterday. I coated the spring with Air Venturi Moly grease but I have some heaver grease ordered. I did notice that when I pulled the spring out it looked stringy between the coils so I will try that with the heaver grease. Thanks
-
Just understand that use of HEAVY greases or TAR will make the action sluggish and far more temperature sensitive as these lubes thicken & thin with temp changes ;)
-
If the spring guide fits tight, spring ends polished, and you have put tar on the spring it should not have spring twang. Are you sure the spring guide is tight?
-
Plastic soda bottle sleeve inside spring cavity of piston can work.
Ideally a better fitted spring guide to I.D. is the correct way however.
I've often wondered how using a sleeve inside a piston can kill twang and vibration, however, I've read of reports that claim it does help. The issue I see with trying to kill twang with an internal piston sleeve is that when cocking a springer the spring expands with compression which causes it to have an more sloppy fit with the spring guide even if it's binding on the insert in the piston. I also know from experience that slopping thick sticky spring tar on the spring coils does reduce twang for the "short haul", but I learned at a field target match a couple decades ago that excess tar can cause poi shifting with temperature changes. During one early spring field target match the sight-in was done during snow flurries but the temperature rose to upper 50s before the end of the match. Both my brother and I started missing targets with the warmer temps (we both were using .177 R9s tuned identically) and the shift was about 1" in only 20 yards. Funny thing is that my shifting was "up and right" but my brother's R9 shifted "low left".
Anywhoo........a properly fitted tight spring guide does just the opposite as a pistoin sleeve because the spring is tightly gripping the guide till the gun is cocked. Cocking the springer causes the id of the spring to expand releasing the grip on the guide. With the shot the again constricts and re-grips the spring guide killing the spring oscillations and vibration.
-
The spring guide on Oneshotwillie's gun, an LGU, like mine, is pretty good from the factory, but not great. A new and tighter guide can be machined from delrin stock, but it is somewhat different than most others in that it fits into the trigger housing and not just butted against it..
So for those who don't have the means to do the machine work and until one of the aftermarket suppliers come up with a kit of sorts, the best thing to do, for the time being, is what has been mentioned above.
I put a .004" shim in mine and it toned down the twang considerably. It did not eliminate it, but the gun is deadly accurate as is and I may not change things even if a kit is someday made. --------------------- Baloney, of course I would buy the kit. It would be impossible for me not to, I just couldn't help myself.
I do have an old, sloppy Atlas lathe and I was thinking of buying a delrin rod an attempting a new guide. Something to do on these cold winter days.
-
"It did not eliminate it, but the gun is deadly accurate as is"
To be completely candid I have to admit that even my fitted twangless spring guides in my R9 and HW95 there isn't/wasn't a big change in accuracy vs the gun in "factory twang mode". Personally.....I believe that in general a quality spring gun likw the HW95/R9 really doesn't NEED a tune to shoot accurately!
-
The spring guide on Oneshotwillie's gun, an LGU, like mine, is pretty good from the factory, but not great. A new and tighter guide can be machined from delrin stock, but it is somewhat different than most others in that it fits into the trigger housing and not just butted against it..
So for those who don't have the means to do the machine work and until one of the aftermarket suppliers come up with a kit of sorts, the best thing to do, for the time being, is what has been mentioned above.
I put a .004" shim in mine and it toned down the twang considerably. It did not eliminate it, but the gun is deadly accurate as is and I may not change things even if a kit is someday made. --------------------- Baloney, of course I would buy the kit. It would be impossible for me not to, I just couldn't help myself.
I do have an old, sloppy Atlas lathe and I was thinking of buying a delrin rod an attempting a new guide. Something to do on these cold winter days.
LGV / LGU Walthers respond excellent to piston liners because the fit between spring O.D. & Piston I.D. is already fairly close. Water bottle plastic sleeve cut and fit stuck down on a small smear of tar to hold it really helps !
Add that to a better internal spring guide and these rifles just THUMP when fired.
Those pistons with great internal clearance likely to see no results with a sleeve fitted unless heavy enough in thickness to bridge the gap present.
-
Plastic soda bottle sleeve inside spring cavity of piston can work.
Ideally a better fitted spring guide to I.D. is the correct way however.
MH, should the sleeve fit OVER the spring.....BETWEEN it and the inside of the piston
....or inside the spring, free to expand under it's own (memory of "retained curl") as the spring compresses and releases?
In either case, what keeps the sleeve at the forward-end of the business, and not able to migrate to the rear in time?
-
Plastic soda bottle sleeve inside spring cavity of piston can work.
Ideally a better fitted spring guide to I.D. is the correct way however.
MH, should the sleeve fit OVER the spring.....BETWEEN it and the inside of the piston
....or inside the spring, free to expand under it's own (memory of "retained curl") as the spring compresses and releases?
In either case, what keeps the sleeve at the forward-end of the business, and not able to migrate to the rear in time?
Being bottle plastic comes from is LARGER in diameter, it wants to hold onto ID of piston. Thus as stated some TAR between piston I.D. and plastic sleeve it becomes somewhat glued in place. Spring is free to move along the sleeve and can have light lubrication present so drag is minimal.
-
gotcha! :D
-
meh -- translation... Cool! That is some really helpful information.
-
A good old US copper penny with moly paste up inside the piston for the spring or tophat to ride on works wonders. I even used 2 of them in the FireCat. (chopped silent cat)
-
Or you could buy the "twang removal" tuning kit from Vortek or Air Rifle Headquarters. I have the Vortek kit, easy install. Before the kit I did the lube tune, grind and glassy polish the spring ends, resized and installed extra washers, filed smooth all rough areas.
Only thing I didn't try was the soda bottle sleeve but I didn't know about it until after I put the Vortek kit in. All that worked pretty well but the Vortek kit was better (simpler to do, quieter, less messy. I hate that heavy tar).
Some like Air Gun Headquarters kit better but I found the site to be a little off-putting and not as user friendly as Vortek's and Vortek is very helpful with information or any level of question if you either call or email.
-
Or you could buy the "twang removal" tuning kit from Vortek or Air Rifle Headquarters. I have the Vortek kit, easy install. Before the kit I did the lube tune, grind and glassy polish the spring ends, resized and installed extra washers, filed smooth all rough areas.
Only thing I didn't try was the soda bottle sleeve but I didn't know about it until after I put the Vortek kit in. All that worked pretty well but the Vortek kit was better (simpler to do, quieter, less messy. I hate that heavy tar).
Some like Air Gun Headquarters kit better but I found the site to be a little off-putting and not as user friendly as Vortek's and Vortek is very helpful with information or any level of question if you either call or email.
As started on the ARH site............
"Please Note;
Our target audience is skilled gunsmiths and airgunsmiths. So we supply no instructions or advice on assembly, dis-assembly or exploded diagrams or "how to" books or files. Thank You!"
Tom Vortek on the other hand also caters to the "novice" airgun shooter and does go out of his way to help with answering customer inquiries.
Personally, I have found that the ARH springs last longer than the Vortek springs so I use them. Years ago I was keeping count of how many shots I put on a Maccari soft spring kit I installed in my .177 R10. At 20,000 shots I stopped counting and that spring kit was even installed in my first R9. That soft spring kit velocity started at 910fps in the R10 and after 20,000 shots I was still getting 905fps with the same pellet brand.
On the other hand, a few seasons ago I installed a Vortek PG2 kit in my R9 and it lost 60fps velocity (CPL @ 940fps down to 880fps) after shooting less than a case of CPLs (about 4500 shots). More recently I bought a bare spring and it started noticeably dropping velocity after two boxes of CPLs (2400 shots).
IMHO.......if you want great "hold my hand" customer service go Vortek. Actually, I'm thinking that most shooters don't shoot an average of a thousand shots per month so the Vortek offerings will most likely be perfectly adequate. If you only want quick service of superior products........ go with ARH!
-
I agree. You and I are coming from two different places. You're highly skilled and know what you're doing, on the other hand I'm relatively new to this sport and learning as I go. ARH was not a good fit for me for that reason even though his products would have worked well.
When I look at a website to potentially buy something but I need to learn a little about the products and perhaps installation and come across the blunt, "Our audience is skilled gunsmiths. We supply no instructions or advice on assembly, dis-assembly or exploded diagrams or "how to" books or files. Thank You!" of course I'm going somewhere else particularly since Vortek was the exact opposite in helpfulness.
But no problem, he just doesn't want to help newbies. He's been around a long time and must have no more patience for questions he's heard many times so he's decided his market is elsewhere. And that's fine. Every commercial website has to decide where their market is. Many sites try to have as broad a market as possible, others feel it's in their best interest to narrow it down tightly.
If my PG2 kit ever craps out and I can figure out what I need to order from his site (since I now know a little bit of what I'm doing thanks to yourself and other GTA members) then I might order from him. But only because of your recommendation.
-
I agree. You and I are coming from two different places. You're highly skilled and know what you're doing, on the other hand I'm relatively new to this sport and learning as I go. ARH was not a good fit for me for that reason even though his products would have worked well.
When I look at a website to potentially buy something but I need to learn a little about the products and perhaps installation and come across the blunt, "Our audience is skilled gunsmiths. We supply no instructions or advice on assembly, dis-assembly or exploded diagrams or "how to" books or files. Thank You!" of course I'm going somewhere else particularly since Vortek was the exact opposite in helpfulness.
But no problem, he just doesn't want to help newbies. He's been around a long time and must have no more patience for questions he's heard many times so he's decided his market is elsewhere. And that's fine. Every commercial website has to decide where their market is. Many sites try to have as broad a market as possible, others feel it's in their best interest to narrow it down tightly.
If my PG2 kit ever craps out and I can figure out what I need to order from his site (since I now know a little bit of what I'm doing thanks to yourself and other GTA members) then I might order from him. But only because of your recommendation.
But only because of your recommendation.
Oooopppsssss....now I'm under tha gun! :o
LOL.......just havin' some fun here! ;D