Rudy,There's breakage and then there's breakage. I have seen dozens of reports near and far of Hatsan Vortex guns losing power "overnight", meaning the owner picked up his Vortex gun, left properly stored in perfect condition, and there was no pressure to propel the pellet. This does not happen with coilsprings. Can you imagine how your shooting trip would be spoiled with a sudden death syndrome?If you buy a coilspring 125/135, and a Vortex 125/135, the difference in the shot cycle is clear as day. However, this is because Hatsan provides their coilspring guns with a grossly undersized, pencil-in-a-bottle-neck spring guide. Replacing this guide with something that actually fits and supports the mainspring, transforms the coilspring Hatsan shot cycle like magic. Optional tophats etc. further sweeten the deal, to a point where there is zero advantage to the Vortex cycle. Standard springer tuning stuff.
Hatsan's Vortex gasrams have a spectacular rate of failure, often losing power without any good reason early on.
IMO, if you go on an airgun forum and ask which gun you should buy you'll get exactly what you got... a mixed batch of opinions based on personal experience (in most cases). So, now what?
Quote from: avator on March 09, 2023, 03:53:35 PMIMO, if you go on an airgun forum and ask which gun you should buy you'll get exactly what you got... a mixed batch of opinions based on personal experience (in most cases). So, now what?Adult homosapiens should have developed the ability to analyze and synthesize information to create a composite model. In short an adult should be able to tell the truth from the BS. Based on what I have observed over the last six or seven years the average adult homosapien is still not capable of this simple cognitive function.
Quote from: Toxylon on March 09, 2023, 05:55:21 AMRudy,There's breakage and then there's breakage. I have seen dozens of reports near and far of Hatsan Vortex guns losing power "overnight", meaning the owner picked up his Vortex gun, left properly stored in perfect condition, and there was no pressure to propel the pellet. This does not happen with coilsprings. Can you imagine how your shooting trip would be spoiled with a sudden death syndrome?If you buy a coilspring 125/135, and a Vortex 125/135, the difference in the shot cycle is clear as day. However, this is because Hatsan provides their coilspring guns with a grossly undersized, pencil-in-a-bottle-neck spring guide. Replacing this guide with something that actually fits and supports the mainspring, transforms the coilspring Hatsan shot cycle like magic. Optional tophats etc. further sweeten the deal, to a point where there is zero advantage to the Vortex cycle. Standard springer tuning stuff.Hi Duke, but then again, what's the deal ?You are bringing it if a coil spring never fails and lasts forever..., no ? A coil spring can fail as easy and suddenly as a gasram too on your shooting trip. So forgive my ignorance, but I don't get your point at all.The aversion against a gasram is totally based on emotion and has nothing to do with facts unfortunately. Yes, it might be (maybe) that the early gasrams from Hatsan are a bit more prone to failures, but the fact that almost their whole portfolio is being sold with the gasrams now and it is even hard to still get a coil spring version, multiplied with the fact that Hatsan is selling a lot of airguns anyway, you almost would have thought that they would be out of business now due to failing gasrams, right ?What did not helped with all the gasram emotions are the advertisements from some of the airgun vendors claiming that a gasram lasts longer than a spring version. At least that sets expectations. But failing gasrams vs failing coil springs ? Based on scientifical laws alone I can imagine that coil spring fatique is much higher with a powerful springer compared with gasram technology...
Quote from: triggerfest on March 09, 2023, 02:36:41 PMQuote from: Toxylon on March 09, 2023, 05:55:21 AMRudy,There's breakage and then there's breakage. I have seen dozens of reports near and far of Hatsan Vortex guns losing power "overnight", meaning the owner picked up his Vortex gun, left properly stored in perfect condition, and there was no pressure to propel the pellet. This does not happen with coilsprings. Can you imagine how your shooting trip would be spoiled with a sudden death syndrome?If you buy a coilspring 125/135, and a Vortex 125/135, the difference in the shot cycle is clear as day. However, this is because Hatsan provides their coilspring guns with a grossly undersized, pencil-in-a-bottle-neck spring guide. Replacing this guide with something that actually fits and supports the mainspring, transforms the coilspring Hatsan shot cycle like magic. Optional tophats etc. further sweeten the deal, to a point where there is zero advantage to the Vortex cycle. Standard springer tuning stuff.Hi Duke, but then again, what's the deal ?You are bringing it if a coil spring never fails and lasts forever..., no ? A coil spring can fail as easy and suddenly as a gasram too on your shooting trip. So forgive my ignorance, but I don't get your point at all.The aversion against a gasram is totally based on emotion and has nothing to do with facts unfortunately. Yes, it might be (maybe) that the early gasrams from Hatsan are a bit more prone to failures, but the fact that almost their whole portfolio is being sold with the gasrams now and it is even hard to still get a coil spring version, multiplied with the fact that Hatsan is selling a lot of airguns anyway, you almost would have thought that they would be out of business now due to failing gasrams, right ?What did not helped with all the gasram emotions are the advertisements from some of the airgun vendors claiming that a gasram lasts longer than a spring version. At least that sets expectations. But failing gasrams vs failing coil springs ? Based on scientifical laws alone I can imagine that coil spring fatique is much higher with a powerful springer compared with gasram technology...Rudy,I'll have one more go. Browsing the airgun forums & pertinent channels on YT etc. reveals a ton of Vortex failures of the type: "I went to pick up my gun for a shooting session and the ram had failed, no pressure." What differentiates this from a coilspring failure is that the Vortex failure seems to not have any relation to the amount of use the gun has seen. The ram can fail with a gun that's been shot a measly 50 times. What seems to be especially common is a Vortex gun that's left unused, stored properly, for an extended period. Come back to the gun, and find that it's dead. Regardless of level of use. Coilsprings almost never fail regardless of use, they fail after much use. Even crappy mainsprings such as Weihrauch's shoot for around 3 000 pellets before expiring. So, when you have a coilspring gun, you can basically rest assured that the mainspring with 200, or 1 000 shots on it isn't going to fail on your shooting trip. Switching from crappy OEM springs to high-quality springs, the situation changes. Titan and Maccari mainsprings last for 20 000 shots or more. Note, this is not only in the low-to-mid power guns. The Maccari 350 Mag spring shoots as hard as the OEM setup, and it too lasts for 20 000 shots without losing velocity. For many airgunners that's a solid 10 - 20 years of shooting (per gun). This kind of longevity is unbeatable. As far as burnt piston seals go, they only burn on dieseling, pressure-leaking, ill-performing guns. And a gun with a compromised piston seal still shoots. It may have a lower velocity and a higher spread than a gun with an intact seal, but it still shoots a pellet. A gasram gun without pressure doesn't shoot at all. I find that shooting under pressure (heh), such as in competition or hunting, utter trust in your gear is a must for actually hitting your targets. Coilsprings deliver in this regard.
Thanks for all the replies. The more I look, the more horror stories I hear about Hatsan. Not too worried, as I will probably take it apart and start inspecting it after a few hundred pellets anyway. Not about to try & warranty it after hearing how bad that is. Ill fix it myself if it has issues. Why do the gas rams fail so frequently? Is there a better replacement, or swap to a spring? Do you lose alot of power going to a spring?The reason I want to stay with .22 is because all my other guns are .22. and .177 is too small for my tired fingers. And .25 pellets are not as easy or cheap to find. So far, it sounds like almost everyone is happy with their 135. Its too bad Hatsan doesn't follow thru with their products in the quality control stages... How beastly are these Hatsans to cock? Another question: Im sure a few Hatsan owners might have a Gamo magnum.. For some reason, it seems like Gamo guns are shunned by most around here. What gives? They make Hatsan-like power and get decent support if there are warranty issues. Does anyone have both brands and any advice on which one they like more?
If ANYONE should be criticized about their Vortex experience it should be all the SATISFIED customers who DON'T post. That leaves a very lopsided percentage of reviews reporting mostly about the BAD Vortex experiences.
Quote from: mikeyb on March 11, 2023, 12:46:57 PMIf ANYONE should be criticized about their Vortex experience it should be all the SATISFIED customers who DON'T post. That leaves a very lopsided percentage of reviews reporting mostly about the BAD Vortex experiences. Unfortunately, that's human nature. Also keep this in mind: For the reviews to be somewhat meaningful, you need to know sales numbers. As an exaggerated and simplistic example, consider web research done on two rifles you are considering purchasing. In researching "rifle A" you find three bad reports describing defects or early failure. The research on "rifle B" finds many more bad reports: 18.But if the total sales numbers for "rifle B" were ten times more than "rifle A," the bad reports might actually represent a smaller percentage of problems exists with that rifle. But you still don't know how many customers were satisfied or even exceptional happy with their rifles. The majority of people having positive experiences don't post.It's all a guessing game unless you have all the data.
.... hence that age old saying... "If it ain't broke don't report it". That said, just once I'd like to see one of these online reviewers say... "Man, this thing is a piece of garbage.. don't waste your money".
Quote from: avator on March 12, 2023, 10:05:54 AM.... hence that age old saying... "If it ain't broke don't report it". That said, just once I'd like to see one of these online reviewers say... "Man, this thing is a piece of garbage.. don't waste your money".I'm pretty certain there are at least two GTA members who have openly posted something like that about Hatsan rifles and also stated that they would never buy one again. I don't doubt they got bad rifles and/or had unsatisfactory repair experiences. It happens. I also understand their "I'll never buy one again" attitude. I might have felt the same way if I had their experience near the beginning of my springer education. I understand I'm the exception now because I love a repair challenge, enjoy working on springers almost more than shooting them, and can't resist trying to rescue/rebuild cheap air rifles that others might want to smash against a tree or send to a scrap yard.I have received supposedly factory refurbished Hatsans from 3rd party sellers that had NO "R" stamp on the block or signed Hatsan repair checklist that would NOT WORK out of the box. For anyone else that's a really bad experience followed by an angry/disappointing return chore. No one likes that... except me! My fun really begins when a cheap refurb fails to shoot right out of the box. So far I've been able to bring all the "duds" I've received back to factory spec for very little extra money and a couple hours of challenging fun-time.
I need help picking out my 1st Hatsan. Im a springer guy, so PCP's are out- its going to be one of these 5 springers in 22. I shoot 50yds or less, but still want something powerful. Which would you pick and why? Hatsan 125 Sniper Vortex Hatsan Torpedo 100X Hatsan SpeedFire Vortex Multi-ShotHatsan 135 QE Vortex Hatsan Mod 65I understand that Hatsans aren't particularly known for quality, but I enjoy fixing/modifying stuff anyway. So if one gun in particular outshines the rest with a few changes, then Im all ears.