Aftermarket seal odyssey!
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Aftermarket seal odyssey!
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Topic: Aftermarket seal odyssey! (Read 5585 times - 1 votes)
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mentolio
Follow me, I'll show you where to crash.
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
Ummmmm.....sure
Real Name: Jeff
Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
on:
August 19, 2017, 06:53:20 AM »
...or, a Hatsan seal "shootout" see what I did there?
Note: this shootout will be based on MY experience with MY guns and parts that I PAID FOR. You experience may not be the same as mine. Also, I am not a tuner nor expert in any way, just a guy who has mechanical ability and wants to do some "learnin." If my attempt here helps others, awesome. I am using a digital vernier caliper to take measurements as accurately and consistently as I can. My measurements will not be NASA accurate, nor am I using a micrometer. Think of it like this: your bathroom scale may not be as accurate as the scale at the doctor's office, but if you always weigh yourself with the same bathroom scale, you will be able to accurately track weight loss and weight gain if not your "down to the ounce" weight. I am measuring each seal with the same tool, the same way. Lastly, I am not meaning to disparage any particular product or manufacturer...these guys have forgotten more than I know about airguns. Nuff-said!
The test bed: my recently (a few months ago) purchased, manufactured in 12/2011 Webley Valuemax in .20 caliber. This gun has become my favorite springer to shoot due to it's compact size, light weight, great accuracy, and ease of shooting. What prompted this test was my installing an ARH seal in the gun when I rebuilt it, being overall pleased with the way it shot for several hundred pellets, then finding that the velocity was severely reduced when I Chrony'd it. Gun still shot well, it just shot A LOT slower. Thinking I damaged the seal, I took it back apart to inspect everything. The seal looked fine, as did everything else, so I tried sizing the seal down a just a bit, since it is billed as an “oversized” seal. After a white knuckle session on the drill press, I reduced it's diameter by a bit (likely too much), and reassembled. I noticed that the Piston had a little less resistance as it went back in, but still took some "push" to install. I thought everything was cool, but once Chrony'd the gun was shooting even slower (like 100 fps slower, and big numbers in extreme spread)! When I reinstalled the beat-up stock seal, my velocity jumped right back up where it should be...hmmmmmm. So I decided to try some different seals to see if any other aftermarket ones would work better. Now that I’ve taken more comprehensive measurements of all the seals, I have to admit that I may have just “overshot the sweet spot” with the ARH seal, based on my flawed theory/measurement with my first experience. Although used, this test ARH seal has not been sized-down, and had very few shots on it when it came out of my 85. Other than being a little stained from moly, it looks like it did when it went in there.
We have four contenders for the title of best seal for a Hatsan 1000: Hatsan factory seal, Air Rifle Headquarters seal, a Vortek seal, and one seal from Custom Air Seals (which I will call CAS) in Australia. The criteria is as follows: Seals will be measured for outer diameter uninstalled and then installed on the piston, they will be measured for inner diameter of the seal, and they will be measured for thickness. Also up for consideration: soft/hardness of each seal comparatively, each seal's effect on the shot cycle, and velocity measured over the chrony. So that I am not wasting several tins of pellets (on top of the monies already spent on seals), each velocity test will be conducted after only 20 "clean-out" shots between rebuilds. I will be testing with Benjamin pointed 14.3 pellets, as they are the least expensive .20cal, this gun likes them, and their inconsistency in size and weight will really allow the better seals to shine and will expose the poorly made seals. Yeah, I know… I should let the seals break-in to reach their optimum performance. Well I'm not going to burn thousands of pellets just to do that. That's how I'm going to conduct this test. So let's get on with it!
Manufacturer: Avg. uninstalled outer dia: Avg. installed diameter. Total expansion:
Hatsan. 27.11mm. 27.13mmm. .02mm
The results are misleading: the Hatsan seal is cast from a mold, and ends up the least "round" seal of the group. I got measurements as high as 27.2, and as low as 27.08, installed?!?
ARH. 27.12mm. 27.2mm. .08mm
My results here are different than the first time I measured ("Problem" post) because I didn't take into account just how much more pliable/soft the ARH seal is, and was squeezing it a bit. I guess this also effected my installed measurement, which showed little to no expansion, which was clearly incorrect!
CAS. 27.29mm. 27.57mm. .28mm
Now we're talkin'! The Custom Ari Seals seal is big, feels as soft as the ARH, and measured the most consistently "round."
Vortek. 27.23mm. 27.67mm(!!!). .44mm
Whoa! Even though the CAS measured slightly larger in diameter, the Vortek expanded more when installed on the Piston. The Vortek is not as soft as the other two aftermarket competitors, but is significantly softer than the stocker.
Manufacturer: Inner diameter: Thickness: Pliability (as measured by feel):
Hatsan. 15.8mm. 6.32mm. Freakin' hard!
This seal is made of a harder material, I assume to make it last. Great idea, if it was something like round! Also has the second smallest inner diameter. I had to heat it, lube it, and still needed to pry it on with a small screwdriver.
ARH. 16.1mm. 6.44mm. Soft and supple
The ARH had already been installed, so I waited to install and remove each other seals before I measured, to try and be fair. Still the largest inner diameter. Totally a pleasure to install. Just a bit of lube, and a little smidge of elbow grease, and it pops right on.
CAS. 15.96mm. 6.53mm. Soft like the ARH
Also the thickest seal in the test. Very soft, easy to put on.
Vortek. 15.68mm. 6.5mm. Harder than ARH/CAS
The Vortek is softer than the Hatsan seal (and so are some metals!), but was noticeably harder than the CAS/ARH seals. Took a little extra "oomph" to get it installed, but still didn't need to pry it on.
It's almost unfair to test the Hatsan seal against these contenders. The Hatsan looks cast from a mold, the other three are precision made on a lathe. As such, the after market seals have the obvious and distinct advantage of being far more precise than the Hatsan offering...the stocker creates more noise, harsher recoil, and wider extreme spreads, but good velocity.
So the first seal up for velocity testing is the Vortek. It's the biggest, so I want to see what it will do "un-sized." Well I got it in there, but it wasn't easy. It took significantly more effort to move it than the ARH seal did, and was obviously too big. After installation, I felt more resistance when cocking the gun and it honked a bit at the end of the cocking cycle. That said, the shot cycle seemed pretty smooth during my 20 clean out shots. Velocity was what I expected: slow. Average with Benji 14.3s was 673.5, and the ES was 10.17. Slow but consistent, and with Benji pellets, no less! That said, if you’re not sizing this seal down a lot prior to installation, your velocity is suffering! I removed the seal and sized it down to 27.27 installed diameter. It was much easier to install, offered much less resistance when cycling the piston (though still a little tighter than I’d like), and improved velocity. The Benjis averaged 693fps, with an ES of 23.34. High ES but doable, considering these numbers will likely improve as the seal breaks in. I will likely try to size it one more time (aiming for just a little shy of 27.20) just to push the limit and see how close to the Hatsan seal velocity I can get, pre break in. As expected, shot cycle was smooth and reasonably quiet, recoil improved, and the gun felt good. While I expect some “buzz” to creep in there over time, as the spring tar migrates, there is none of the “banging” I experienced with the Hatsan seal.
This ends the first installment. Sheesh, this may take awhile!
«
Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 10:27:51 PM by mentolio
»
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Gloucester County, NJ
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cobalt327
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 2418
Real Name: Mark
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #1 on:
August 19, 2017, 09:58:26 AM »
Thanks for chronicling your odyssey- it will be interesting to see all the results!
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GA, USA
mentolio
Follow me, I'll show you where to crash.
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
Ummmmm.....sure
Real Name: Jeff
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #2 on:
August 19, 2017, 08:44:56 PM »
Quick addition: I resized the Vortek seal one more time (from 27.27 to 27.15), and velocity went down with an increase in extreme spread. Basically, I over-shot the target and made the seal too small. Meh, guess I should've left well enough alone. Next time, I'll bring it down to 27.4 or 27.3 and see how it goes.
Explanation: the Hatsan seal that came out of the gun (with great velocity!) measured 27.13 on the piston, so I figured that might be a good measurement to get close to for the next sizing attempt, however I was wrong.
I get the feeling there are going to be many, many mistakes made on this journey!
«
Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 08:54:30 PM by mentolio
»
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Gloucester County, NJ
If I shot half as good as you, you'd still shoot twice as good as me!
Webley Valuemax .20: airgunning's best kept secret...shhhhh!
mentolio
Follow me, I'll show you where to crash.
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
Ummmmm.....sure
Real Name: Jeff
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #3 on:
August 19, 2017, 09:14:28 PM »
Woooof...been a long day of tear-down, put together, shoot, repeat…which technically means I had a good day!
Next victim: the ARH seal.
I started a thread called: "ARH seal, is anyone else having this problem?" In it I chronicle my disappointing experience with this seal. My measurements were &^^& (I didn't account for how soft the seal is, dummy) my theory was flawed ("seal must be too small from the beginning" nope), and my sizing was "insert appropriate profanity here." Ok, now that's out of the way, onward. The ARH seal I am using in this test is the one that resided in my Hatsan 85 for awhile, with very few shots pushed by it. I just didn't like shooting the gun very much, was disappointed in the performance of it, and didn't feel like messing with it. So I took the ARH out, and replaced with a used Hatsan seal that was beat-up by the factory install. Viola! Velocity returned to this pretty darned powerful gun. So the seal is used, but in really good shape. I didn't install it in the Webley without sizing it, because I already know how this gun performs with an unsized ARH seal...which is to say, pretty poor.
So, I decided to try size it down from 27.2-ish to 27.15…fail! Velocity went down, extreme spread went up (along with my blood pressure!). At 27.15, the piston fit felt really good, and the shot cycle was pretty nice, just crappy velocity and ES. I do not really fault the seal, I think I just passed that “sweet spot size” (if there is indeed one) again! Now some points regarding the ARH seal:
1-The ARH is the second softest/most pliable seal in this group. Maybe softer needs to be bigger?
2-The “face” of the sealing surface is round, not flat like the rest (if not for the Photobucket fiasco, I’d just post pics to show you). The only reason I can think of to shape the Edge of the seal like this is to aid in sliding over imperfections without getting cut? I don’t know, but maybe that has something to do with my inability to get this thing to work? Again, I can’t fault the seal, not when I once again sized it too small. But I will say this: maybe this seal is strictly for professionals, and maybe it works for them. It does not work for me or in any of my Hatsans, and I will not buying another one (for my Hatsans, I may try one of his Crosman seals).
Conclusion: nicely made, good material, apparently too difficult for me to figure out, so I call it a fail. Anything that requires that much work for so little (to no) gain just isn't worth my time. If you're looking for a seal for your Hatsan, and you're not into experimentation, go with factory or Custom Air Seals (which is up next, and boy is it surprising!).
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Gloucester County, NJ
If I shot half as good as you, you'd still shoot twice as good as me!
Webley Valuemax .20: airgunning's best kept secret...shhhhh!
SteveP-52
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GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 8002
Real Name: Steve
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #4 on:
August 19, 2017, 10:09:26 PM »
Strange, for lack of a better word, with the Vortek seal. I used them in both the VMX I gas rammed and the VMX I tuned and I didn't size either of them before installing. Both were a snug fit when I started to slide the piston back in but the un-pro tuner that I happen to be just grabbed an old broom handle to use to shove the pistons back in place...lol.
I never did think about checking them for size before and after putting them on the pistons. Only thing I did do was to stand both rifles on the butt pads after I was done, break the barrels and work the pistons up and down for 50 strokes apiece before taking them out to shoot and chrony.
Don't know if doing it has any real effect but it's something I've done with every rifle I've tuned just to work the new seal up and down inside the receiver and make the rebuilt action work a little before actually taking the first shots.
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mentolio
Follow me, I'll show you where to crash.
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
Ummmmm.....sure
Real Name: Jeff
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #5 on:
August 20, 2017, 08:36:03 AM »
Something else I noted, at least with the softer pistons: when I removed them they had "compressed." Weird...About the Vortek: I only resized this seal the second time due to time constraints (from 27.27 down to 27.15...mistake, by the way). At that size (27.27) the velocity was close enough to what I'm looking for that I'd have just let it wear-in and see how it would end up. Unsized, the Vortek was about 40-ish fps short. Given enough time I'm sure it would wear in, but I was thinking: the Vortek being the biggest seal, an awful lot of material has to wear away before it settles. So where does all that junk go? I suppose it could be a moot point, as the seal material is "moly lube infused?"
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Gloucester County, NJ
If I shot half as good as you, you'd still shoot twice as good as me!
Webley Valuemax .20: airgunning's best kept secret...shhhhh!
RCO
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 563
yes
Real Name: Rob
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #6 on:
August 20, 2017, 01:41:41 PM »
Hope the Aussie seal is the answer. Your effort is appreciated.
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Illinois
mentolio
Follow me, I'll show you where to crash.
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
Ummmmm.....sure
Real Name: Jeff
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #7 on:
August 20, 2017, 02:02:34 PM »
Thanks for saying so! Man, I'm a fair hand at tear-downs, rebuilds, lube tunes, diagnosis, etc. but make me have to properly size a piston seal? I'm a disaster. When they feel (obviously) too tight, numbers are low. When I take a little bit off and they feel good, numbers go lower. I may just size a Vortek down to 27.4-ish, test it's velocity, and then let it wear in to see what it does. I'm pretty sure it would take a tin or two of pellets to reach max velocity potential, but what the heck? I have a "parts" .177 sitting around doing nothing. Probably should have used it for my test pig instead of the .20...🙄
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Gloucester County, NJ
If I shot half as good as you, you'd still shoot twice as good as me!
Webley Valuemax .20: airgunning's best kept secret...shhhhh!
mentolio
Follow me, I'll show you where to crash.
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
Ummmmm.....sure
Real Name: Jeff
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #8 on:
August 20, 2017, 08:43:55 PM »
And now, the Custom Air Seals Piston seal from down under:
Ok, remember the diameter installed (on piston) measurement? 27.57mm average. Also, it was the “roundest” seal, and ends up being the softest compound, I think. So I installed it without any sizing-down, as I did this round with all but the ARH (which I have good data from before). I was a little surprised to find that this big seal (second in size only to the Vortek) went into the tube easily. Sliding the piston all the way home left me with question marks. How does this big seal slide into the tube like a seal that is significantly smaller? The Vortek at almost 27.70 took some “grunt” to get it all the way in, and its size was felt even in the shot cycle. This Aussie seal slid in there like it was made to go in there (imagine that). I pushed 20 clean out shots through it, then sat down with the Chrony expecting to be disappointed. WRONG! The Benjis averaged 703.5 fps, really close to where they should be. The extreme spread was a little high (25.64), but I think the numbers are good enough that I am willing to let this one ride for awhile and see what it’ll do after a few hundred shots. I also want to test this seal with other pellets to get a better comparison. If it fails, or succeeds, I will install a stocker when all is said and done to finish the comparo (and in the future will size a Vortek down to 27.60-27.50mm for testing).
Conclusion: it would seem that piston seal diameter needs to be quite a bit larger than the bore they seal. And softer seals need to be significantly larger in diameter than harder seals to seal in the bore of the airtube properly. I don’t have the tools to accurately measure the inside diameter of my airtube, but measuring at the opening yielded a measurement of just under 27mm. I also measured the wall thickness of the tube (at the opening), then drop measured through the cocking slot and subtracted the tube thickness. Again, just under 27mm. How accurate is my measurement using just my digital vernier? I don’t know…good enough for this study, but I wouldn’t use it to fit a piston to a bore in an engine. The point is: due to several variables, most of which I could only guess at, the piston seal (regardless of how hard or soft it is) needs to be a lot bigger than the inner diameter of the tube it seals to keep a tight seal under the pressures in which it must work. And it further seems that the softer the seal compound, the larger its diameter has to be relative to a harder seal, to pressurize the airtube properly…whew! If I'm off base with this, I hope someone who knows better will chime in.
Hopefully this has been some help to someone, even if only to say: “man, I don’t wanna mess with that!” Personally, I learned that sizing piston seals is a tedious series of “strip, size, clean, assemble, test, repeat, and in my case fail.” It kinda begs the question: why do it when I can get a stock seal and have it just work…and for less money? The extra cushion from these aftermarket seals is nice but not a necessity for me, and I’m not saving any money buying aftermarket. I have two virgin Vortek seals, and plan to use them, so I guess time will tell (even if this comparison didn’t) whether there is any real benefit to using seals other than stock. I will update as I go. If you have to go aftermarket, I suggest the Custom Air Seals piston seal (at least as of this writing). It’s big, it’s soft, it seems to not need sizing, and so far it just works. Make sure you deburr your tube first, that big, soft seal will definitely get a chunk taken out of it by the standard finish in these tubes. It also takes about two weeks to arrive, and costs about 2-3 dollars more than Vortek or ARH, and about 5 bucks more than Hatsan factory seals. If you buy Hatsan, buy more than you need. Of the five I ordered, one looks like it was fished out of the ocean (after being there for years), and a second one looks kinda questionable/square-ish.
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Gloucester County, NJ
If I shot half as good as you, you'd still shoot twice as good as me!
Webley Valuemax .20: airgunning's best kept secret...shhhhh!
Yogi
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 7434
yes
Real Name: Yogi
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #9 on:
August 20, 2017, 09:42:01 PM »
Piston is compressed?
I bet either your compression tube is not round or your piston is not round.
Kind of like a square peg in round hole.
Good luck with your odyssey.
Let us know where you end up, hope it does not take 10 years...
-Y
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San Francisco, CA
Hatsan 95 Vortex, .22
RWS 5G,
Diana 10M
RWS LP8 Magnum,
Diana 340 N-Tec, .22 Compact Lexus
HW 50S, .177, .20, and .22
cobalt327
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 2418
Real Name: Mark
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #10 on:
August 20, 2017, 09:51:28 PM »
Thanks for posting your results. This all goes to show that there's a lot more to designing a seal than meets the eye. FWIW, the radial tension a seal exerts on the tube has to be balanced to the duro and design of the seal, else like you found- too small = not enough tension = blow by back into the compression chamber instead of out the TP to propel the pellet. A 'least resistance' kind of thing. Conversely, too much = excessive friction/drag = low MV and increased wear.
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GA, USA
luvmyspringers
Shoot's Alot
Shooter
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Real Name: Joseph
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #11 on:
August 20, 2017, 10:29:59 PM »
I have had very good luck with ARH seals in my Hatsan air rifles, and I haven't resized the first one. Also used the ARH 29 mm seal in a couple of Kral break barrels with good results. My Diana 48 has an ARH seal along with my Remington express. And all those guns are very accurate, and smooth. With exception of the one kral, it will never be accurate because of an oversized barrel. I don't have a chrony, but shot all guns before and after install. I also installed a (Vortek)seal in my Ruger impact with very good results unsized as well. Just the usual debur and polish, square and polish spring ends and add some moly and shoot em a few times. Zeroed scopes and they are squirrel getters!
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Burkesville, KY
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SteveP-52
I just lurk, I'm no longer a
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 8002
Real Name: Steve
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #12 on:
August 21, 2017, 08:46:43 AM »
After re-reading this whole thread, the only 2 differences between your installs and mine are I used the Flexhone to clean and crosshatch the inside of mine and I didn't size any of my Vortek seals which now begs the question: How much is that Flexhome taking off the inside of the receiver that unsized Vortek seals fit right and no loss of power after finishing and I had no power loss...both rifles are shooting right about the numbers I thought they should be and the chrony numbers from before and after back that up...**scratches head...hmmmmm**
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NY, USA
mentolio
Follow me, I'll show you where to crash.
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
Ummmmm.....sure
Real Name: Jeff
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #13 on:
August 21, 2017, 06:23:47 PM »
I neglected to mention that I too used a flex home to clean up and cross hatch the inside of the tube. The flex hone really doesn't remove any significant amount of material unless you over-do it. I did not re-hone after each disassembly as I didn't think it necessary. When I can still see a decent cross hatch, and there is no rust to remove, I don't bother honing unless it's been a long time/a lot of shots (a few tins worth, at least). The flex hone is mainly for "finishing" a surface, not removing material.
Steve, it could just be my need to get it done fast. Maybe if I left the Vortek seal in there long enough, the crosshatch would eventually size it down to where it needs to be. I think that is likely the case with just about any gun. I rebuilt my Striker Edge (parts gun) with a new stock Hatsan seal yesterday, and lemme tell you it was not easy to get in there. The stock seal offers mucho resistance! Given a couple hundred shots, I'm certain it's going to loosen up and size itself down appropriately. I think the "need" to size these seals may just be a way to get the seal to break in faster. As an example, if it needs to be 27.50 to seal properly, but it's 27.70 at install, it would reasonably take a lot longer to "wear in/size itself" than it would if the seal started at 27.55? Maybe....still trying to work that one out. How soon after a rebuild are you putting the gun over the Chrony. I did it after a total of 20 shots. Even 100-200 more shots MAY make all the difference in the world?
«
Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 06:37:52 PM by mentolio
»
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Gloucester County, NJ
If I shot half as good as you, you'd still shoot twice as good as me!
Webley Valuemax .20: airgunning's best kept secret...shhhhh!
SteveP-52
I just lurk, I'm no longer a
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 8002
Real Name: Steve
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #14 on:
August 21, 2017, 07:08:02 PM »
All I do after I'm done is work the barrel up and down that 50 strokes to get everything inside moving and meshing together, take it out and shoot maybe 20 shots, then chrony. I figure another 200 shots and I will again and see what kind of difference in fps.
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NY, USA
mentolio
Follow me, I'll show you where to crash.
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
Ummmmm.....sure
Real Name: Jeff
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #15 on:
August 21, 2017, 08:01:42 PM »
Ok, thanks. That is a really good idea! I have two more Vorteks, and will try that with the next one. After the fifty cycles I will remove the piston and measure it for a before and after installed size. Tho when I do it, it'll be on another 1000 or my 85. My Webley iseems to be shooting too well with the CAS seal for me to remove it yet.
Logged
Gloucester County, NJ
If I shot half as good as you, you'd still shoot twice as good as me!
Webley Valuemax .20: airgunning's best kept secret...shhhhh!
SteveP-52
I just lurk, I'm no longer a
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 8002
Real Name: Steve
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #16 on:
August 22, 2017, 08:38:29 AM »
Keep us posted because this has been some veryyy interesting stuff...you even have me thining about getting a couple of the CAS seals to try out on whatever I decide to tinker with next.
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NY, USA
frodo9mm
Plinker
Posts: 213
Real Name: Fletcher D
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #17 on:
August 22, 2017, 09:04:01 AM »
Jeff - Thank you for sharing this. It is great information and I like the way you are going about it.
I recently did some minor tuning, deburring and polishing on 95 Vortex QE and decided to leave the factory seal in the gun after inspecting it and seeing that it has hardly been worn.
I had purchased an ARH seal and may try it in the gun at some point.
In any event, I plan to chrono the gun and will publish the results of what it shows when i do.
Great work and thanks again,
Fletcher
«
Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 09:36:21 AM by frodo9mm
»
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East Coast, VA
Frodo9mm
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Sharp Shooter
Posts: 715
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Real Name: Jeff
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #18 on:
September 07, 2017, 08:26:11 PM »
Almost forgot, thanks for the kind words folks!
So I bought a Striker Edge Vortex in .22 from a new member (thanx Chet!) when it stopped working. I decided to take it apart today and clean it out, as I got tired of cleaning all the black, oily junk out of the barrel every 10 shots or so. Then it hit me: why don't I try to get one of my two remaining Vortek seals to work...so the Vortex got a Vortek (yuk-yuk-yuk)😁.
I looked back through this thread in the hopes of not making the same mistake twice with this seal. I also wanted to try scp52's method of shoving it in there and then cycling the piston by hand 50 or so times to see if it would free up at all. Lastly I wanted to take a before and after measurement of the seal to see how much it would compress after being cycled in the tight confines of the tube.
I ripped "The Jet" apart...wooof, whatta mess! There was a big old load of lube/oil/rust inside there (like usual), and the piston head was loose! That I haven't seen yet. I could easily rotate the piston head by hand almost a quarter turn, and could pull the head away from the piston "sleeve" about a full millimeter. This may have taken a while to become a serious problem, but I am fairly confident it would have reared it's ugly head eventually, and maybe not in a good way! The seal was typical Hatsan "hurry up and shove it in!" assembly, and as such was pretty torn-up on two sides. The gun shot well enough before disassembly, but was definitely a little crunchy, especially at the end of the cocking cycle.
Anyway, clean/hone/de-burr/clean/polish de-blurred parts/clean....you get the idea. I also welded the piston head, cleaned up the welds, and polished that up a bit too. Add one unmolested Vortek seal, a little moly lube, and a bunch of grunting; and that equals one assembled power plant. I threw the barrel on and cycled the piston 50 times. Whew, what a pain! That Vortek Piston seal was just ridiculously tight, even after fifty cycles over my light crosshatch! Maybe I'm just getting soft...meh!
The piston seal as installed on the piston measured 27.67mm in diameter. When the piston came out of the airtube, with just enough "recovery time" to wipe the little bit of lube off and measure, the piston seal as installed on the piston measured 27.56mm. So it appears to have compressed just over .10mm, and was still waaaay too tight. I remembered that I wanted to try sizing down to 27.40-ish and then let it wear in to see what kind of numbers I could get out of it. So a little while at my drill press found me stopping at 27.45mm. Maybe I should have gone down to 27.40, but I figured I'd give this diameter a chance to impress me. The feel of the piston going back into the tube was still a little tight for my liking, but when I sized this seal smaller in the previous experiment it seemed to fit just about perfect, and made lousy numbers.
One thing I noticed immediately is how much easier the gun was to cock. Man, if you're not at least cleaning out your Strikers, you don't know what you're missing! Every one I've had apart was so over lubed (except the Webley, that one wasn't too bad), and yet full of grit and rust (how does that even make sense?!?) that simply cleaning and de-burning them made them so much nicer to shoot. This Vortex was a prime example of that. That extra crunchy feeling at the end of the cocking stroke was gone, and everything just moves so much nicer with the right amount of care...but I digress...
The gun cocked easier, sure, but also has a nice and quick shot cycle, and the seal really makes a difference at the end of the shot cycle in both noise and...not really recoil per-se, but just the"jolt" when the piston stops is so much smoother with the little bit of extra cushion from the Vortek seal. It was also nice not to have the gun smoke like a musket with every shot. I only put 15 shots through it, but it is definitely quieter and smoother. I didn't bother putting it over the Chrony before swapping seals, as it was deiselling so much, I'm pretty sure the numbers would not have been even remotely accurate. Enough guys have Chrony'd these guns that it should be pretty easy to find out what to expect from stock. Once I've got maybe 200 shots through it, I'll Chrony "The Jet" and see if it's yet worthy of the name. Thanks for reading, and I hope this is of some help to someone...or at least a little entertaining.
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Gloucester County, NJ
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Webley Valuemax .20: airgunning's best kept secret...shhhhh!
Yogi
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 7434
yes
Real Name: Yogi
Re: Aftermarket seal odyssey!
«
Reply #19 on:
September 08, 2017, 01:47:57 AM »
Nice post, thanks!
-Y
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San Francisco, CA
Hatsan 95 Vortex, .22
RWS 5G,
Diana 10M
RWS LP8 Magnum,
Diana 340 N-Tec, .22 Compact Lexus
HW 50S, .177, .20, and .22
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Aftermarket seal odyssey!