GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => American/U.S. Air Gun Gates => Daisy Gate => Topic started by: stonykill on February 17, 2016, 09:38:09 PM
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Started a working prototype. Figured no sense starting from scratch when I have a pile of 880's and never shoot this one. Stock 2015 880 internals other than trigger mods.I wanted to see how fast it was with the gun stock 1st. Then I'll mod it up, and see how much faster the arrow flies.
Tomorrow while working in my wood shop I'll mod up a pair of grips to clear the vanes.
Using crossbow arrows, as that is what I have in 2119, which slides right over the .30 od Daisy barrel perfectly :D
I supported the barrel for the test run near receiver end with part of a bent arrow and some tape.
I gave it 2 pumps and aimed at a folded up blanket a few feet away.
It launches ;D
I'm pumped!
This stuff is just too much fun! Mixing my 2 favorite projectile forms. 8)
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0217161932-002_zps4sao3afk.jpg)
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Ok Tom now I know you are crazy... crazy like a fox that is...
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Looks cool!!
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Started a working prototype. Figured no sense starting from scratch when I have a pile of 880's and never shoot this one. Stock 2015 880 internals other than trigger mods.I wanted to see how fast it was with the gun stock 1st. Then I'll mod it up, and see how much faster the arrow flies.
Tomorrow while working in my wood shop I'll mod up a pair of grips to clear the vanes.
Using crossbow arrows, as that is what I have in 2119, which slides right over the .30 od Daisy barrel perfectly :D
I supported the barrel for the test run near receiver end with part of a bent arrow and some tape.
I gave it 2 pumps and aimed at a folded up blanket a few feet away.
It launches ;D
I'm pumped!
This stuff is just too much fun! Mixing my 2 favorite projectile forms. 8)
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0217161932-002_zps4sao3afk.jpg)
8)
After you get this thing shooting hard you need to paper tune it for accuracy. Take a piece of news paper and pull it tight in a frame with tape or clips of some kind. Then shoot a shaft with no fletching into the paper. You want it to punch a hole in the paper like you stuck a ink pen through it at 5 to 10 feet. You will have to tune the shaft to the gun buy trimming the length or buying the right spine. The 2119 may be too stiff for the gun so you may have to go with a weaker shaft? I shoot 30" 2117 arrows with 175 Grain broad heads from my 60# Bear Super Kodiak and they fly great. I doubt your gun will produce the torque my bow does? I don't know if pushing the arrow from the front will negate the torque issue? It may but arrow tuning by length and stiffness is going to be the way to get the best accuracy. I like feathers better than plastic for a bow and the head weight will also make a difference so you need to choose one to work with. If the arrows you have don't work well go to Wal-Mart and pick a assortment to experiment with.
Good luck with it.
Bryan
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I asked this question back in October, I just
A. Didn't have an 880 on hand to try it.
B. Haven't taken the time to pick one up to try it.
I was hoping someone would take up the torch, and now you have...
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=98235.msg918809#msg918809 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=98235.msg918809#msg918809)
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Kirby, you know it .
Thanks Matt!
Bryan, I am not new to archery. I am familiar with tuning. Not to change the subject here too much, but I build my own crossbow arrows from dowels, and make my own steel broadheads, and fill my freezer with the kills from them
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/DSCF3511-001_zpsb4e8c1b2.jpg)
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/DSCF3505-001_zpsbc1949fb.jpg)
The reason a 2119 or 2219 is needed, is you need an internal diameter that fits the .30 od barrel, snuggly, yet not so snug it gets stuck. For a good seal. This is the size that works. To use a different spine arrow will mean turning a new barrel to fit the arrow and the breech. I don't think it will be required.
I do agree, length experimentation for spine stiffness may be required. But I think pushing the arrow from the front, rather than pushing it from the back will make the difference.
I like feathers better for self bows, and longbows. Well mainly because they are required on self bows. Being the arrow building was an experiment, and vanes are less money, as was the vane fletching tool, I went with vanes. 2 years got me 2 deer with them. So they work fine.
Ian, it has been on my mind since you brought it up.
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Just a thunk, but as the pressure goes up, you may have to glue the head socket in better, possibly up to and including drilling a cross pin through the shaft and threaded socket to retain it.
Possibly not, but it's a thought..
Thank you for pursuing this,
An AFFORDABLE air bow, I have seen a video using co2 on one also..
I am interested in seeing how fast a stock one will do..
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EAJNxpItfX0 (https://youtube.com/watch?v=EAJNxpItfX0)
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Just a thunk, but as the pressure goes up, you may have to glue the head socket in better, possibly up to and including drilling a cross pin through the shaft and threaded socket to retain it.
Possibly not, but it's a thought..
Thank you for pursuing this,
An AFFORDABLE air bow, I have seen a video using co2 on one also..
I am interested in seeing how fast a stock one will do..
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EAJNxpItfX0 (https://youtube.com/watch?v=EAJNxpItfX0)
That was my inspiration. I was just named admin of a FB low cost AG page, sent out invites through other groups and my blog, and someone shared this who is also building one. Personally, I think as a pumper it will be faster. Maybe not stock,but maybe, but after mods I think it will be. Plus I m using a shorter arrow. At least for now.
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Since the Daisy valve is a dump valve, I was thinking to get more valve volume with the pumper, the piston face is flat, you could dish it to possibly get a little more overall air volume.
I haven't been that far into a 880 valve assembly to know if it dumps the air all the way to the piston, but it stands to reason it would..
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Dude.
Now I know you'll try anything.
And how many 880s do you HAVE!? :o
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Dude.
Now I know you'll try anything.
And how many 880s do you HAVE!? :o
Most are in the pic below ;D . I recently sent 4 to a 4H group, and gifted one to a friend. I was at 17, now at 11 Daisy's. Mostly 880's,two 901's and one 35 left. Plus a Quicksilver I need to set up and give to a friend who is recovering from major surgery, and can't use the Gamo Hornet I gave him a year ago yet. A couple of Daisy bb guns, including the Red Rider I got for Christmas at 7 years old, a few Daisy pistols, One Daisy springer, and couple of other brands of AG's. ;D
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Since the Daisy valve is a dump valve, I was thinking to get more valve volume with the pumper, the piston face is flat, you could dish it to possibly get a little more overall air volume.
I haven't been that far into a 880 valve assembly to know if it dumps the air all the way to the piston, but it stands to reason it would..
I would say it dumps all air from behind the abutment seal. And flat topping the piston gives an added few FPS.
I ran some numbers while glue was drying in the shop. Less than I hoped for stock. I'll report numbers later after I weigh the arrows, field tips, etc.
Which makes me think..... is a barrel longer than I need hurting performance in this instance? I think that extra 6 inches or so of barrel I am not using may be hindering. Further for the air to go before it launches the arrow. More contact of arrow and barrel. I'll mod up in steps and see what happens.
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I know flat topping ups the fps a little (1377 experience)
But since the warranty is obviously voided by doing any of this, I figure a couple of extra pumps to compensate for the added weight of the arrow, and the volume of the shaft as the arrow leaves the barrel.
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The design is down.
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0218161715-001_zpson3ukt7i.jpg)
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0218161715-003_zpspw6hpwsw.jpg)
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0218161716-001_zps8uyglfo8.jpg)
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0218161716-002_zpsrlc3hpbz.jpg)
After a nice dinner of corned venison, cabbage, and potato, I'll weigh up the arrow, field tip combo. And post the stock pathetic numbers. She will need a boost for sure.
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Ok, 1st as you will see in the pics, I don't have a seal of any type on the barrel, where the arrow ends. I didn't for 2 reasons.
1) the video I got the idea from never mentioned it
2) I don't even know if it will make a difference. Only way to find out is try both ways.
So I'll add a piece of 5/16ths hose to the setup, and make it a combo arrow holder (while the arrow is on the barrel) and a seal. The only place it will help is initial launch. After that, air will escape anyway.
I weighed my field point 1st. I thought it was a 100 grain, and I should really have an 85 grain. Well it weighs 124.6 grains, so it is a 125 grain point. 40 grains is 40 grains. I'll have to see if I have an 85 around anywhere.
The arrow with vanes and the point insert weighs 275.2. That isn't going to change.
Making the test arrow total weight, 399.6 grains.
Note to self, DON'T forget to cycle the bolt before pumping. I did that once. Pumped and the arrow flew up in the air about 15 feet and landed 10 feet away. Cycle bolt, load arrow.
The pathetic initial test results. Thankfully they will only get better. Better enough???? Who knows. If not it'll be Co2 powered once landscaping season kicks in and the fundage gets better.
10 pumps
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0218161209-00_zpsqjo81emq.jpg)
15 pumps
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0218161213-00_zpsprtwocwe.jpg)
And it is very consistent. Single digit spread, at 10 pumps it varied less the 2 fps extreme spread. So I don't think I'm losing air without the seal at the end of the arrow, or I am losing it very consistently.
I picked through my parts and put ll the parts to build up some internals together. I have a barrel, with deep rust pits in the barrel, good for this use, not for pellets, and all the other parts set aside. I'll build new internals, and probably put all the parts in another receiver stock setup, and return this 881 back to it's former glory. Which is just putting the shroud back on and changing back to the original grips.
Note to self again.... power mod internals, polish barrel od, seal for vane end, use/find lighter field point.
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I think that to "seal" it, you might try just using a little lube. I imagine there is not much space between the arrow and the barrel, and a thin layer of grease at the muzzle end will probably do it. Or maybe even a light coat of low viscocity oil over the entire barrel. Ballistol maybe? And the velocity is already slow enough, I think you will still have lubricating qualities and more velocity ising it.
I am not sure how fast something must move before the lube increases friction.
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Not too terribly bad, a 25 lb bow hits about 125fps.
Just needs a little nudge.
Shorter arrows, and shorter barrel?
Maybe a .22 barrel for more flow?
How about this, since it's a target arrow gun for now.
On some arrows , the nock end is spun to a point. How about removing the fletching, and use the spun point as the field point, no added weight in the arrow.
Just re-fletch the other end of the shaft.
To seal it, I would look into a little silicone lube.
To retain the arrow, and maybe let it built a little pressure, a piece of heat shrink tubing on the back of the barrel where the rear of the shaft seats.
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Not too terribly bad, a 25 lb bow hits about 125fps.
Just needs a little nudge.
Shorter arrows, and shorter barrel?
Maybe a .22 barrel for more flow?
How about this, since it's a target arrow gun for now.
On some arrows , the nock end is spun to a point. How about removing the fletching, and use the spun point as the field point, no added weight in the arrow.
Just re-fletch the other end of the shaft.
To seal it, I would look into a little silicone lube.
To retain the arrow, and maybe let it built a little pressure, a piece of heat shrink tubing on the back of the barrel where the rear of the shaft seats.
A .22 barrel would be a tremendous amount of work. The entire length of the barrel would have to be perfectly turned to .30 to get an arrow to fit.
I like the heat shrink tube idea. I'll have to experiment with lubes.
I figure to be any fun at all, I need 125 to 150 FPS. I can make that happen. I do think a shorter barrel is part of the equation.
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Long ago I had the .22 version of the 880.
I didn't know if there was a difference in the outer diameter of the straw barrel between .177 & .22.
If the OD is larger, what about stepping up in arrow diameter?
If I recall, the arrow sizes are the inner diameter in 64th of an inch X wall thickness in thousandths.
(2112 = 21/64ths of an inch X .012)
But I am old and forgetful.
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Long ago I had the .22 version of the 880.
I didn't know if there was a difference in the outer diameter of the straw barrel between .177 & .22.
If the OD is larger, what about stepping up in arrow diameter?
If I recall, the arrow sizes are the inner diameter in 64th of an inch X wall thickness in thousandths.
(2112 = 21/64ths of an inch X .012)
But I am old and forgetful.
I don't own a Daisy built .22. Only ones I built myself. Daisy no longer sells 22SG barrels. So I have no idea what the OD was on them.
Most .22 barrels are 7/16ths od. I don't know of an arrow that large. If there were one, it would be heavier. Even a Crosman barrel, the easiest and most affordable to get, would have to have the OD turned anyway. If you ever chucked one up to turn, you would know how out of round the OD on them is.
I am confident the FPS will increase.
Keep the idea's coming. Might be a few days before I get back to it. Brainstorming is a good thing.
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Yes the crosman barrels are 7/16, the mrod, the 760, 761xl, the 22xx series and such.
Is there anyone reading this that has a .22sg daisy that can measure the outside diameter of the straw barrel?
I don't think it is 7/16, that's pretty large to put inside the shroud of the daisy line.
The maintenance man where I work is planning on building an arrow gun on an old paintball gun he has, that he no longer uses.
He is using steel brake line as the straw barrel.
We are just swamped at work and don't have time to tinker with it at the moment.
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Yes the crosman barrels are 7/16, the mrod, the 760, 761xl, the 22xx series and such.
Is there anyone reading this that has a .22sg daisy that can measure the outside diameter of the straw barrel?
I don't think it is 7/16, that's pretty large to put inside the shroud of the daisy line.
The maintenance man where I work is planning on building an arrow gun on an old paintball gun he has, that he no longer uses.
He is using steel brake line as the straw barrel.
We are just swamped at work and don't have time to tinker with it at the moment.
I put 7/16ths od barrels inside Daisy shrouds on a regular basis. They fit without issue.
IF I could find a straight enough medium, I could see replacing the barrel with brake line, except it has a parting line.... that is an issue. I bet lowes or HD has something suitable in aluminum or brass. Maybe even using a smaller diameter arrow, IF I can find 2 that fit together right, for a barrel.
Being one can't buy a 22sg barrel, that is kinda a moot point. Unless someone was gifting one :D
I think upping the pump pressure, adding more volume in the valve and the abutment chamber, a shorter barrel, and a good seal on the vane end, may just get respectable numbers.
With 7.4 grain pellets I gain 150 FPS pretty easily. I have to be able to figure out a way to gain at least 60 FPS from this, before converting to CO2 or better yet HPA
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A parting line?
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Very cool idea Tom.... Always thinking outside the box!! 8)
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A parting line?
Yes. A parting line. For a barrel, or pump tube for that matter you need a seamless tube. Brake lines have a seam/parting line, where they were made. At least as I recall they do. I'm sure one could be used, but it would take some work to get it perfectly round.
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That's what I thought you meant, the one he has , he got from an anutparts store, and is seamless steel tubing.
It's sold in different lengths, and is straight, from the factory, like buying brass tubing from the hobby store.
It's stiff, and a length of 18 inches is very rigid.
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That's what I thought you meant, the one he has , he got from an anutparts store, and is seamless steel tubing.
It's sold in different lengths, and is straight, from the factory, like buying brass tubing from the hobby store.
It's stiff, and a length of 18 inches is very rigid.
I'll check that out! Thanks
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http://www.autozone.com/brakes-and-traction-control/steel-line/ags-poly-armour-steel-line/198092_0_0/?checkfit=true (http://www.autozone.com/brakes-and-traction-control/steel-line/ags-poly-armour-steel-line/198092_0_0/?checkfit=true)
Available in
3/16
1/4
5/16
3/8
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In my experience, the rigid brake lines are too easily bent. I think something like industrial stainless steel tubing would be a better fit if you want tubing that wants to remain straight. We use this stuff at work for everything we build and it's easy to work with and very stiff.
https://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-Tubing-3ACH4?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3ACR6_AS01?$smthumb$ (https://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-Tubing-3ACH4?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3ACR6_AS01?$smthumb$)
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So, any updates on the project?
Advancements?
Failures?
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Have not gotten back to this one yet
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interesting project.
maybe the arrow can be shorter without losing over-all fpe. Might even gain fpe due to less friction. --> higher fps?
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The 22sg barrel would most definitely need to be turned or a massive diameter arrow. Maybe use some powdered graphite for lube? That could help possibly. Maybe get the field tips with the o-rings so seal that end down good and ensure your not losing any pressure on that end. Very cool project so far though.
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Just a thunk, but as the pressure goes up, you may have to glue the head socket in better, possibly up to and including drilling a cross pin through the shaft and threaded socket to retain it.
Possibly not, but it's a thought..
Thank you for pursuing this,
An AFFORDABLE air bow, I have seen a video using co2 on one also..
I am interested in seeing how fast a stock one will do..
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EAJNxpItfX0 (https://youtube.com/watch?v=EAJNxpItfX0)
That was amazing video, is it possible to make it do plain air like a pcp? I can not imagine making one, but it looks cool, and the bragging rights alone...
thanks
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the plans he demonstrated are quite simple in another video and atleast 2 people have posted their rendition of his design... he simply used the piston as an air block and a ball valve to fill for each shot.. Because it is a dump valve it may handle higher pressure well,but the compression tube and attachment would blow apart on pcp pressure..A regged 1000psi bottle would do fine, assuming the reg never fails.(same asa attachment he used for the 20oz tank
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the plans he demonstrated are quite simple in another video and atleast 2 people have posted their rendition of his design... he simply used the piston as an air block and a ball valve to fill for each shot.. Because it is a dump valve it may handle higher pressure well,but the compression tube and attachment would blow apart on pcp pressure..A regged 1000psi bottle would do fine, assuming the reg never fails.(same asa attachment he used for the 20oz tank
Thanks, looks cool, but a divrets sdpear gun might be good as well. They have co2 and rubberbands I believe.
Jorge is a master, I am sure most people here have seen this and other video's
enjoy
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_AySuafZ8to&itct=CBMQpDAYDCITCNKtwbSS_c0CFQrRvgodFD0GCVIMam9yZ2Ugc3ByYXZl&hl=en&gl=US&client=mv-google
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I am playing with the 880 arrow gun mod right now, might as well post some of my results here in case someone else might find it usable.
* the 880 has a shortened barrel, at about 12.5"
* arrow used is MossyOak 325gr carbon shaft, from Walmart (on clearance at $3), sku 811870035258; I cut it down to match the shortened barrel. There is little space between muzzle and the end of insert. whole arrow with tip installed is 310gr.
---- I am at ~5000ft elevation; the fps/fpe result should be a bit higher at lower elevations----
FPS result, using shortened 880 barrel (12.5") with the short 310gr carbon arrow
** 5 pumps -->65fps
** 10 pumps -->78fps / 4fpe
** 15 pumps --> 102fps / 7fpe
FPS result, with same barrel and same arrow, but with a 1/8" rod installed in the barrel to take up the space (so the air expends less in the barrel, and more pressure gets delivered to the muzzle to push the arrow)
*** 10 pumps ==> 99fps
*** 15 pumps ==> 110fps /8fpe
looks like reducing the barrel-hole cross-section size (I suppose it only needs to be slightly larger than the transfer-hole size) has some positive effect on the fps of arrow.
update:
Tried a 2219 aluminum arrow today:
-- short arrow at 12.5", weight 313gr with field point tip
-- FPS (with 1/8" dia rod in the barrel): 9 pump -> 102fps
10 pump -> 107fps
12 pump -> 112fps
15 pump -> 119fps
20 pump -> 129fps
(looks like it is still gaining ~10fps every 5 extra pumps, maybe I will try a 30-pump shot next time, see if it can reach 150fps...)
Accuracy seems ok up to 30ft, arrow became unstable after that.
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Kevin,
Great info on the CF arrows for the 880 barrel. My Prod arrow gun is slinging crossbow bolts 444gr @ 240fps.
it is still a work in process but I figured I should up here as well.