GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => China/Asian AirGun Gate => Topic started by: dmoneytt on November 06, 2013, 08:05:18 PM
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Hi all. I got my new Octane in .22 yesterday and have already put about 700 pellets through the tube. In short, everything about the rifle is outstanding except the trigger. The shot cycle is smooth, the accuracy is insane (under 1/2" at 30 yards from a sitting position, and I know I will see better groups from a bench), and the overall feel is one of quality. The trigger is absolutely horrible though. It has minimal creep, though a bit gritty, and a very crisp break, but the pull out of the box is about 10 lbs. The weight of the rifle wouldn't even break the sear. I tore the trigger group apart after 500 rounds and stoned and polished every contact point, but did not radius any edges or change any geometry. The parts were very crude and I expected great results after getting a mirror shine on them. After reassembly the pull is just under 7 lbs., which, to me, is still unacceptable in a rifle with so much potential.
Does anyone have any recommendations of things to try? I am going to take it down again and shim everything and see if that makes much difference. I am afraid to change the geometry much or change the sear return spring with a rifle this powerful as a beartrap could be catastrophic. I see that this trigger group is similar to the xs46u (but not identical) so anyone with experience tuning the browning leverage or xs46u trigger group might be ahead of the game. I do expect that those rifles will have a bit lighter pull due to producing almost half the energy of the octane, but surely something can be done.
As a last resort I could save my pennies and send it off for a trigger job, but I hate to have to do that since I'm scraping my pennies until I graduate nursing school this spring. I'm pretty handy and have done very successful trigger jobs on countless firearms and airguns and hate to throw in the towel on this one, but who would be the tuner to go to? I have a Mike Melick rifle that I absolutely adore, so I would put him on the short list. Any other suggestions?
Thanks for any input guys. This one is driving me nuts.
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Hi, and welcome to the GTA!! If Mike Melick would take it on he might be your "go to" guy. I know nothing about the Umarex Octane, not even whether it is a single stage or two stage trigger. You could check the charliedatuna.com website to see if the Octane is even mentioned. It may be worth a shot. Otherwise, use it until you complete your schooling. The education is the priority!
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GRT trigger blade will not fit....
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I haven't seen the Octane trigger but have been told it is the same as the Yukon trigger. Have a Yukon and the trigger is really nice after a clean, polish and lube, two stage and light....get your geometry text out and see if you need to slightly mod something, try and figure out where the weight is coming from..if you have the primary that holds the sear in place smooth it will be in the rest of the mechanism. the use of moly can help but be careful...
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Wow first time i hear of a octane being insane accurate ,as far what u did to lower it bout 3lbs is good ..i dont know anything about those triggers but what mike said makes sense ..finding out where the weight is coming and take it from there ...u defintely have a winner and hope u fix your problem soon so we could hear the update ...wish the grt3 trigger would of worked but im sure u got this ...jorge
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I shot the rifle a bit more today. About 200 rounds of cphp's, which is the only pellet I've tried so far. I figure there's no sense in breaking the rifle in on the good stuff. Today I only shot from the bench to try to get a baseline on accuracy before trying different pellets. An interesting thing occurred. The trigger would occasionally break at a much lighter pull weight. Not often, but several times in the 200-shot string I would begin applying pressure slowly approach the break point and the rifle would fire at less than half the usual break force. What resulted is that the shot would go to a different point of impact (like an inch or more off target) versus where the shot would land when the trigger broke at the usual 7 lbs. I think it is because the rifle recoils differently when you are having to put a death grip on the stock to release the piston. Basically hold sensitivity. However, the groups where this did not occur are pretty inspiring. My average 10-shot groups were coming in right at 1.25" at 50 yards. This is a little better than my CFR does at 50, and I haven't even finished breaking the barrel in or trying different pellets yet. Also, by the time the shot breaks, the crosshairs are dancing on the bull because I'm having to work so hard to get the trigger to break. The pull gauge says a little over 7 lbs, but I swear it feels like a lot more. I guess I'm spoiled by <2 lb. triggers.
So back to the trigger pull. I'm guessing that the inconsistency must be a sign of poor tolerances in the trigger group. The components must be lining up differently sometimes for the pull to be so inconsistent. I am going to take out the piston catch and weld together the three riveted plates that it is composed of so I can have a solid part to work with. I am also going to get some brass washers and hammer them to the right thickness so I can shim everything up. Hopefully this will get the trigger down to something manageable. This trigger is just not working for me at all. The decent groups took every bit of strength and concentration I could muster. The cocking force is nothing compared to the trigger pull as far as fatigue. If I can get it to 4 lbs this will be my go-to plinker and hunter, but only time will tell. Whatever the results, I will post them so others can avoid my failures or learn from my success. Thanks for the help everyone.
Oh, and as a side note, I had originally used the factory supplied 3-9x40 ao scope that came with the rifle. It was pretty poor compared to something that I would ever buy for my guns, but serviceable nonetheless. However, after a few shots today the reticle began to spin within the scope. Umarex offered to let me return it for another one, but I figured it wasn't worth the shipping. I opened up the scope and removed the little ring that holds the crosshairs and applied blue loc-tite and then replaced it with the crosshairs at the proper attitude. I then moved it to my daisy 880 where it shouldn't be tested very hard, and is plenty crisp for shooting within the limited ranges of the 880. I then pulled my bushnell elite 4200 5-15x40 out of the gun safe and mounted it to the octane. Man what a difference good glass makes. I doubt my groups would have been as good if I had tested the octane with the supplied scope.
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I don't know if anyone is still watching this thread, but for anyone who searches, I think this is worth a follow up. I shimmed everything that has a pin in the trigger group, and polished and lubed every contact point. Rounding the point of the trigger adjustment screw just a little made a considerable difference to the pull weight as well, as it does dig in and drag substantially when squeezing the trigger. For those that are wanting a big improvement without much work, a polish and lubing of the adjustment screw tip will go a long way. Removing the slop by shimming didn't lighten the pull much, but it made it so much more crisp and consistent. I very slightly altered the geometry of the sear that holds the piston catch in place to have slightly less positive engagement. (Sorry if my terminology is wrong, but I think you guys know what I'm talking about). It is still quite safe, as there is a very strong positive engagement of these parts and it would take a fairly radical change to the geometry to make it unsafe. The end result is just what I wanted. I started with a 10 lb. trigger and polishing and lubing got me to 7 lbs. Shimming, polishing the trigger adjustment screw tip, and slightly altering the sear engagement geometry has netted me a very consistent 2lb. 4 oz. trigger. It's no 10 meter match trigger, but for a super magnum level rifle, I am completely satisfied. It's not too light to be hard to use with gloves on and is plenty light enough to give good groups. I've got a ton of different pellets on their way here for testing. If something can beat the crosman premiers by enough to get me under an inch at 50 yards I will call this a total success. Too bad it's too powerful for field target.
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Thank you for sharing your information. The change from 10 lb. to 2 lb. 4 oz. is impressive. Perhaps Umarex will send you a nice thank you gift because I think you have just sold another Octane for them. Merry Christmas.
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There are a few things that you can do to the trig right away, The set screw that adjust the trig needs to be taken out and sand down smooth. This will stop the gritty feel. For a detailed and complete trig job you can visit. the Umarex Octane Yahoo group. This is also a list of post for you to read, The Octane likes heavy pellets, the two that I only use are the JSB 18.13 and the Pred polymags
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/umarexoctane/photos/albums/129249756 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/umarexoctane/photos/albums/129249756)
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Wow first time i hear of a octane being insane accurate ,as far what u did to lower it bout 3lbs is good ..i dont know anything about those triggers but what mike said makes sense ..finding out where the weight is coming and take it from there ...u defintely have a winner and hope u fix your problem soon so we could hear the update ...wish the grt3 trigger would of worked but im sure u got this ...jorge
Yes it is very accurate with the right pellets
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So the Octane has been getting a steady workout since doing the trigger job. Five more tins through the rifle since the trigger job, the pull weight actually seemed to increase just a tad. At first, I thought maybe I was just imagining it. I'm not sure if it is due to the Moly paste wearing off or just from break in, but, according to my pull gauge, it has increased by about a pound. It goes counterpoint to what I usually see after trigger work. Normally the pull will get a little lighter due to final wearing-in of parts, but it certainly feels a touch heavier and the pull now measures 3 lbs. 5 ounces. I will take the trigger group down and see if there is any indication as to why this happened. Either way, the trigger is still very nice and it hasn't hurt the groups at all. It could be because I was missing a pin in the trigger group the first time I measured the pull, but adding the pin only made the travel shorter, so I doubt that is it.
Anyway, I am going to take notes and pictures of what I did to get the trigger to a manageable pull weight and submit it as a guest blog to Tom Gaylord. If he uses it, it will be on the normal Pyramyd air blog, and I'll link to it in this thread. If he doesn't I'll still have rights to it and can post it here.
Hopefully I can do a decent "how-to" that will help others to get these awesome rifles up to snuff in the trigger department. I'm not sure what pellets art working best for ya'll but the crosman premier hollow points have been the most consistent for me. Even the crosman premier domes have not been as accurate on a consistent basis. 25 yard groups are regularly falling into 3/8"-1/2", with the occasional flyer every few groups. I'm going to test a Gamo sampler next. Not sure I'll get better results than the premiers though. 50 yard groups are usually a little over an inch. I sure would like to find a pellet that will beat an inch on a regular basis, but I have a feeling I may need to order a lot of high-dollar pellets to find it. Maybe I will give that a try when funds aren't so tight. Being a student sure doesn't pay well.
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Just submitted my guest blog to Tom Gaylord. I'm no photographer and my camera is pretty sorry, but I think it all came out pretty well. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hoping he will use it.