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Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => The Long Range Club => Topic started by: Precision Action on March 09, 2021, 07:24:08 PM

Title: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 09, 2021, 07:24:08 PM
Up until recently I was training for the PRS competition. Then the ammo shortage hit, prices rose, and I quickly found myself SOL. Admittedly I am still unsure whether it would be more effective attempting to do ELR with air or take up field target, but for the moment let's put that aside.

I remember reading that the key to ELR is ft per lbs, basically the more power you can put down range the further your shot will go, the more weight you can put down range the less windage will affect the projectile, and all of this being said as long as you can overcome differences in velocity. I noticed that several models on the market can put a .357 downrange at a pretty good pace (~900FPS) and if your round has good BC that really could calculate to some distance. A select few of these models can be modified to compensate for an additional air bottle of air supply. But, I am not seeing many posts here about 35 calibers or even 30 caliber rounds for that matter. What is the reason for this?
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: rsterne on March 09, 2021, 07:42:42 PM
Not familiar with the term "ELR".... or "PRS competition", for that matter.... As far as "weight downrange" having a better BC, that will apply to some extent if you keep the caliber constant.... but BC is really connected to the Sectional Density, which allows you to compare calibers.... A 120 gr. slug in .35 cal will have the same SD as a slug half that weight in .25 cal.... with the BC then being a matter of the Form Factor (shape).... A 60 gr. slug in .25 cal will be more slender than a 120 gr. in .35, so the .25 cal would likely be less affected by the wind than the .35....

Pellets have a much poorer BC than slugs, so if you are really interested in the best performance in a crosswind, with a moderately powered PCP, I would look to a slug shooting .22 or .25 cal.... My favourite long range PCP is a .257 of about 140 FPE, shooting a 70 gr. slug at 950 fps.... The Lyman 257420, or one of its variants, is a great 200 yd. slug in a 14" twist.... This is not to say that you can't do as well, or even better, with a really powerful .30 or .35 cal.... but since FPE and air use is proportional to bullet weight (at a given velocity), and the FF advantage actually lies with smaller calibers.... I'd just as soon avoid the extra recoil and air requirements just to break even on performance....

Bob
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 10, 2021, 12:45:49 AM
Not familiar with the term "ELR".... or "PRS competition", for that matter.... As far as "weight downrange" having a better BC, that will apply to some extent if you keep the caliber constant.... but BC is really connected to the Sectional Density, which allows you to compare calibers.... A 120 gr. slug in .35 cal will have the same SD as a slug half that weight in .25 cal.... with the BC then being a matter of the Form Factor (shape).... A 60 gr. slug in .25 cal will be more slender than a 120 gr. in .35, so the .25 cal would likely be less affected by the wind than the .35....

Pellets have a much poorer BC than slugs, so if you are really interested in the best performance in a crosswind, with a moderately powered PCP, I would look to a slug shooting .22 or .25 cal.... My favourite long range PCP is a .257 of about 140 FPE, shooting a 70 gr. slug at 950 fps.... The Lyman 257420, or one of its variants, is a great 200 yd. slug in a 14" twist.... This is not to say that you can't do as well, or even better, with a really powerful .30 or .35 cal.... but since FPE and air use is proportional to bullet weight (at a given velocity), and the FF advantage actually lies with smaller calibers.... I'd just as soon avoid the extra recoil and air requirements just to break even on performance....

Bob

Good answer, It makes sense of course. I don't know why I didn't think of this. It is the same with powder rifles, a 6mm round is more slender and posses a better BC than a 7mm or 6.5mm.

ELR = Extreme Long Range
PRS = Precision Rifle Series
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Blue on March 10, 2021, 09:23:39 AM
Are you looking for an option that will let you practice until the ammo shortage sorts out or are you looking to change to competing with air?

Unless you are trying to match ballistics to another gun and projectile so you can practice without having to translate results Iíd just go with a lower caliber.  If itís practice, make it more valuable by choosing a caliber that does less for you. I think just a few of the other benefits of a smaller caliber would be lower price projectiles (pellets or slugs), lower air use so less frequent fill ups, and Iíd rather walk 100 yards and back to change targets than 300.

I like my rifle, itís in .22.  Iíve spent a fair amount on aftermarket parts, Iíve spent a lot of time tuning and getting to know it, and even when I got what I considered to be a spectacular group/score I was still getting spanked by larger calibers last summer.  If you are looking to compete against other air gun shooters then you will want the edge that a larger caliber may provide (if itís allowed) but you are going to spend a lot of time and money tuning it to be a top tier competitor.

I think the smaller calibers that are more effected by wind will end up making you a better shooter overall by forcing you to read the wind in the moment.  I think practicing in the worst conditions makes it easier to play when things are less than perfect. Think about runners that wear a resistance Ďchute or run uphill when they train or maybe Inigo Montoya dueling left handed.

There was a group of guys that came up with a game they called ďmini snipingĒ where they purposely shot inexpensive low powered guns at closer but very small targets to challenge themselves using the same principles they used when shooting powder burners long range. Imagine a competition where you are shooting tic tacs at 30 yards with a Red Rider, literally competing shooting BBís from a smooth bore!

Donít fall into the trap of false equivalency, you are never going to find an air gun that will shoot the same as your powder burner. You are going to have to find the sweet spot where the lower weight projectiles, velocities, and distances you can shoot will allow you to upscale and use the skills youíve honed by practicing.

Also, never discount the practice you gain in things like maintaining sight picture or breath and trigger control that will directly apply to any shooting.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Madd Hatter on March 10, 2021, 12:15:09 PM
Mini sniping is shooting 9mm pistal cases at 35 yards. It was figured out to be hitting a man size siluet at 1000 yards. They used.177 target springer.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Blue on March 10, 2021, 12:49:52 PM
Mini sniping is shooting 9mm pistal cases at 35 yards. It was figured out to be hitting a man size siluet at 1000 yards. They used.177 target springer.

Yep, now I remember that bit about using the 9 mm cases.

And I suppose you could take it easy on yourself and use those big cases for targets along with a rifled barrel if you want  ;)

Just kidding!!! Anything you can do that makes you better or provides enjoyment or both if at all possible!

If you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong!
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 10, 2021, 05:24:50 PM
* Am I looking to change to competing to air?
There just aren't opportunities for that in the area, in fact there are little opportunities for anything in the area. The nearest gun range is over forty minutes drive, most people shoot on their property if they have it, but with the influx of citified individuals that is becoming rare. I have managed to find a spot that give me a little over 400 yards to shoot on my property. If I hop a fence (cough, cough), I could get to a thousand yard stretch within a minute or two walking through the woods.

My concerns with lower calibers is also what deterred me from investing in a field target model. It is that things are not as safe as they once were where I live. Without going into detail, I am it when it comes to protecting the farm, and several hundred acres of my elderly neighbor's property. Because we didn't want to live beside the largest power plant in the region, and despise being forced to live beside an abomination of a poultry farm, we are getting pushed around and bullied unnecessarily. For example, someone did donuts through my front yard this weekend while I was in the house, and the farm manager drag races and burns out his tires every time he passes the farm daily.

I apologize for mentioning all of that, but I need something that makes a statement and can reach out and bite someone on the butt if needed. My inquiry has a real world application to it other than marksmanship. The nearest store that used to sell powder is well over an hour's drive away, and it is never in stock, all online retailers are completely wiped out, and I do not know when or if the shortage will ever subside. Then, we have that buffoon in the white house who is trying to push legislation that will price firearms out of availability as far as my situation is concerned. There has to be another solution available on the market, that would allow me to compete and protect.

As far as ammo is concerned, I have a lot of lead from shooting so much, and it just needs to be melted down and formed. So, I was going to invest in a mold, and pour my own rounds.

Anyways, I am stressed out from mentioning all of that. I am going to lie down now.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: bear air on March 10, 2021, 07:38:12 PM
Sorry about you having to go through all that William. Maybe you could contact the local sheriff's office and have them pull the jerk over for driving like that by your place. I shoot .177 to 30 cal. I think that perhaps a 22 caliber might be more what your looking for. The ammo is pretty cheap and air usage will be a lot less than a 30 or 35. Watch the classifieds on GTA and airgun nation for a possible deal on a gun. Good luck.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: rsterne on March 11, 2021, 12:51:24 AM
If you would like to see some thoughts on how to compare a PB to an airgun, this old thread might interest you....

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=107267.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=107267.0)

Depending on the choice of airgun you make, and whether shooting pellets or slugs, you can emulate PB shooting at about 1/3 to 1/6th the distance with an airgun, by scaling the target appropriately....

Bob
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Madd Hatter on March 11, 2021, 01:21:27 AM
Mini sniping is shooting 9mm pistol cases at 35 yards. It was figured out to be hitting a man size siluet at 1000 yards. They used.177 target springer.
For those who are interested.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/08/mini-sniping/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/08/mini-sniping/)

and https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/2009/04/minisniping-great-game-to-play-with.html (https://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/2009/04/minisniping-great-game-to-play-with.html)

Here's the original article about mini sniping  http://www.minisniping.org/ (http://www.minisniping.org/)
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: bear air on March 11, 2021, 07:10:11 AM
Walmart also has some Red Ryder targets that are pretty challenging at closer distances.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 11, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
If you would like to see some thoughts on how to compare a PB to an air gun, this old thread might interest you....

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=107267.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=107267.0)

Depending on the choice of air gun you make, and whether shooting pellets or slugs, you can emulate PB shooting at about 1/3 to 1/6th the distance with airguns, by scaling the target appropriately....

Bob

This was more or less my train of thought. I have heard that the National Rifle League has an air rifle class for their Precision Rimfire competitions. I never expected an air rifle to come anywhere close to matching the power and performance of a 6 mm BR, but it was my hopes that it would allow comparison to a 22lr. The standard velocity of a 22lr is around 1080fps and as we know air rifles are pushing out speeds around 900fps. (Field Target rifles put out less velocity at around 800fps.) I figured that if I could poor my own slugs at around 60gr, the extra weight could translate to some farther distances.

Right now, my favorite place to shoot is at a 200-yard range using business cards as targets. I figure if I can hit a business card at that range in the three positions, I will be ready for business. My standard range is at 180 yards, where I have moving targets that drop from strings. I get a kick out of seeing the targets bounce in the air.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 11, 2021, 02:25:19 PM
Walmart also has some Red Ryder targets that are pretty challenging at closer distances.

I use the slynger silhouettes ($5) from wally world as per silhouette rules starting at 50yards with my walmart special Gamo Maxxim. It still is challenging and I nail the metal suckers nearly everyday.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 14, 2021, 08:21:00 PM
Are there any formal competitions or competitive formats for long range shooting?

Also, I gave minisniping a try. It is more challenging than silhouette shooting, I eventually found my rhythm, but have much room for improvement.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: rsterne on March 14, 2021, 08:36:50 PM
There is a series for 50 yd. Benchrest shooting, but the only airgun competition I am aware of for 100 yard or over is the Extreme Benchrest in Arizona, just once a year.... In Europe they have a lot more, they even have dedicated 100 metre indoor ranges.... For a start, print off the NUAH Targets (in the Rules "sticky" above) and have a go at 100 yards.... When you achieve Master at that distance, move the target out to increase the challenge.... We have one member (dyotat100) who qualified as a Master at 200 yds.... Starting in April we will be having monthly 100 yd. Matches in the Gate below....

Bob
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Thebryan on March 16, 2021, 09:14:10 AM
More great info here. It would be a cool idea to have a prs style match with air rifles!
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 19, 2021, 07:23:33 PM
More great info here. It would be a cool idea to have a prs style match with air rifles!

Very much agreed.
This is true, and to some degree already exists. Over on airgun nation there is an entire board pertaining to NRL22 with air rifles. Supposedly NRL22 has created an air gun class and is allowing air guns to compete in the competitions. Does not appear that there is any formal rules regarding constricting their use.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Thebryan on March 19, 2021, 08:14:16 PM
More great info here. It would be a cool idea to have a prs style match with air rifles!

Very much agreed.
This is true, and to some degree already exists. Over on airgun nation there is an entire board pertaining to NRL22 with air rifles. Supposedly NRL22 has created an air gun class and is allowing air guns to compete in the competitions. Does not appear that there is any formal rules regarding constricting their use.

I had no idea might have to look into it
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: enazle on March 20, 2021, 10:26:59 AM
I have found using air more satisfying because of the variables that come into play. The cost of air is an important consideration. Cylinders, fittings, hoses, compressors and gauges is a sizable investment. We have a saying, big bore equals big air, and also means big money. I settled on a .308 because it has a ton of molds out there and seems to be a good compromise. Itís also legal to use for Deer in my state.  But if you get past the initial investment it will save money in the long run. One word of advice, secure and air source first. Then buy a gun that fits. Target shooting a .50 caliber can use 600 psi per shot.  I get 1 PSI per 1 FPE out of my .308. Oh and welcome to the sickness.. I mean family!
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 24, 2021, 09:36:42 AM
In a turn about of unsatisfactory events, I just lost my 1000 yard range to some city slicker developer. Was not even given the opportunity to make an offer on the land. So, unless I move to Wyoming, I will be forced down to 400-500 yards for practice.

@rsterne - I headed over to Berger's projectile stability calculator with some data and was surprised to discover the twist rate on the FX Impact is a little high to stabilize the slug at 60grains. Optimum grains for a barrel that tight would max out around 43.5 grain. This is disheartening, because it means at that twist rate I am going to be limited as far as increasing the grains. I know Dan Lilja makes air rifle barrels, but that would be getting to big for my wallet. I thought about talking to the boys at Raw, which are just over the hill or two in Tennessee, and get their input on the conundrum. How do you overcome this limitation?

@texas I don't know to say if I am cursed, lucky, or just stingy, but my air compressor just arrived yesterday. $150 on ebay, practically brand new Davy compressor. Need to make a lot of mods to it though. That 98% humidity of Georgia has no mercy on metal. Tools will rust simply out of moisture content of the air and can be ruined sitting inside your toolbox inside your workshop. It is going to be a challenge getting the moisture out for the rifle.

----

I plan on taking the advice given to me early on in the forum, and invest in a 22 springer first and use it for a while. In all honesty, it stands to be the rifle I will shoot the most, due to it's simplicity and maintenance free nature. I look forward to try it out.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: bear air on March 24, 2021, 07:27:25 PM
That's how I got involved in shooting airguns. I started with a bunch of inexpensive Walmart break barrels. I was hooked!!!!!!
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: Precision Action on March 26, 2021, 06:31:46 PM
In my last post I mentioned some concerns about twist rates, stabilization, and projectile weight. In my quest to become more knowledgeable on the subject to better understand the nature of the concerns I ran across this well written article by our very own @rsterne published in hard air magazine. So, I thought I would share.

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/pellet-twist-rate-and-stability/

Thanks Bob!
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: rsterne on March 26, 2021, 08:20:19 PM
Glad you enjoyed it.... Here is an index to all my articles on H.A.M....

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-definitive-index-to-bob-sternes-ham-technical-articles/

Bob
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: shifty06 on March 27, 2021, 02:20:38 PM
Not familiar with the term "ELR".... or "PRS competition", for that matter.... As far as "weight downrange" having a better BC, that will apply to some extent if you keep the caliber constant.... but BC is really connected to the Sectional Density, which allows you to compare calibers.... A 120 gr. slug in .35 cal will have the same SD as a slug half that weight in .25 cal.... with the BC then being a matter of the Form Factor (shape).... A 60 gr. slug in .25 cal will be more slender than a 120 gr. in .35, so the .25 cal would likely be less affected by the wind than the .35....

Pellets have a much poorer BC than slugs, so if you are really interested in the best performance in a crosswind, with a moderately powered PCP, I would look to a slug shooting .22 or .25 cal.... My favourite long range PCP is a .257 of about 140 FPE, shooting a 70 gr. slug at 950 fps.... The Lyman 257420, or one of its variants, is a great 200 yd. slug in a 14" twist.... This is not to say that you can't do as well, or even better, with a really powerful .30 or .35 cal.... but since FPE and air use is proportional to bullet weight (at a given velocity), and the FF advantage actually lies with smaller calibers.... I'd just as soon avoid the extra recoil and air requirements just to break even on performance....

Bob

Good answer, It makes sense of course. I don't know why I didn't think of this. It is the same with powder rifles, a 6mm round is more slender and posses a better BC than a 7mm or 6.5mm.

ELR = Extreme Long Range
PRS = Precision Rifle Series

6mm do not have better BCís especially against 7mm they have some of the best B.Cís per given weight. It has to with diameter vs length to get the length in perspective for a bigger round it compared to diameter it get very very long and no more practicable. Because as bullet gets longer your eating into case capacity.

6mm are the choice in PRS comepition bc of recoil. Less recoil easier to spot impacts an make follow up shots. Now when you get out west you will see more 6.5ís as caliber
of choice. Wind velocity has a lot to do with it. Where I live 3-10 is normal over 10 is what we call a windy day.
 Shoot the heatstroke in Nebraska 8-20 is normal for them an have had wind in the upper 20ís lower 30ís. Play with a JBC calculator or your kestrel with wind speeds in 20-30mph an watch the 6.5ís take the advantage.

But bc is diameter/length factors among a lot of other factors. Brian Litz has a very good book on it.
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: rsterne on March 27, 2021, 06:52:19 PM
PB's enjoy the ability to use slugs with a much higher Sectional Density than what we can use in airguns, because of the much lower pressures we run.... SD is still the primary factor in determining the BC.... I do agree that smaller calibers have a big advantage in reduced recoil, also in report and air usage in airguns.... While .257 cal is still the preferred caliber for long-range airgunning, lack of barrels of the proper twist rate, and a wider selection of bullets, is the prime factor in holding back 6mm and .224 cal use in airguns.... Our Subsonic ballistics are significantly different than when you are playing in the 2000-3000 fps arena....  :o

Bob
Title: Re: ELR PCP for Precision Rifle Training
Post by: shifty06 on March 28, 2021, 05:03:00 PM
MY comments were concerning PB's SD is mainly used to determine terminal ballistics in PB. Not so much in determining BC. but it is a factor. Just trying to point out the length to diameter ration is more important. 7mm or .284 offers the best length/diameter ration for high BC bullets. Look at 30cal. they have higher SD, an weight. which contribute to higher BC's. but lower BC's than 7mm. grain for grain 7mm is the sweet spot. IN PB. Airgun's don't know much about at this point. But I am interested in swaging some at some point.