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10 meter Q&A

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Finn:
Well I thought it could be helpful to someone if we could share thoughts about 10 meter shooting. I already have couple of questions in mind.

It looks like I'm stuck around 165/200 or 320/400 with 10 meter rifle and pistol and not sure what to do about it.
I have noticed this strange phenomenon of "local grouping". What I mean is that when I use 5 bull rifle targets and 2 or more shots per bull I tend to shoot in the same spot in each bull even if the hits are totally off center, usually one bull has well centered group. I wonder what is the reason for that, shooting order doesn't matter here and I have seen other guys doing the exact same thing.

ac12:
Part 1 - Re the plateau that you hit.

Go back to basics.  Check EVERYTHING to make sure that you are doing it right, and have not picked up a bad habit.

Start from the ground up.
- Is the floor SOLID, STABLE and LEVEL?
- Is the bottom of your shoe FLAT ?  If it is worn, your feet (and you) are rocking on the floor.  You cannot shoot accurately if you do not have a solid foundation.
- Review your stance.
- - For AR, there should be no use of muscles, to hold up the rifle.
- Review your hold of the rifle and pistol.
- - Are you pulling the rifle back STRAIGHT into your shoulder?
- How is your trigger technique?   
- - Are you pulling the trigger STRAIGHT BACK?
- - Are you snatching at the trigger when the target comes into sight picture, or are you holding the sight picture as you squeeze the trigger?
- - Are you releasing the shot within 6 seconds of coming on target?
- Do you wear glasses?  Are they progressive or prescribed for 10m shooting?

Are you keeping a shooting log?
- What time of the day are you shooting?
- - Despite not being a morning person, I found that I shoot best in the morning.  I discovered this after reviewing my shooting logs (time of day and score).
- What is the lighting conditions on the target?
- Are you drinking coffee or other cafinated drink before shooting?

For AR and AP separately:
- How often do you practice; number of days per week.
- How long do you practice; number of shots and duration/time.

Personal comment.
If you are shooting BOTH rifle and pistol, you are diluting your training.  You have to increase practice on both or concentrate on one.
I shoot both AR and AP, but I concentrate on AP.  I shoot AR just to break the AP routine, so I don't get bored of just shooting AP.  My AP scores was about 90%, my AR scores was about 82%.

Part 2 - 'local grouping'

Are you looking at the target with a spotting scope between shots?
- There is a phenomenon similar to "self fulfilling prophesy," where you shoot where you shot before, because your mind is tricked into concentrating on that spot.  It is the same trick that my friend used on me many times when golfing, "watch out for the water hazard," and guess where I hit the ball, grrrr.

On a multi-bull target, is there a pattern of your  'local groups' relative to the bull that you shot center on? 

It could be sight related.
Are you shooting with a clear front sight insert or metal bar?
With the clear insert, your eye is also seeing the other bulls, and that might be confusing your brain.

Is the 5-bull target put onto a larger backer? 
Or is there just empty air at the edge of the target?  This could make it harder to aim at the outer bulls, resulting in an offset.

Are you resetting your stance for each bull, or just shifting your rifle over?

What happens when you shoot a single bull target?

Finn:

 Is the floor SOLID, STABLE and LEVEL?
Floor is solid
- Is the bottom of your shoe FLAT ?  If it is worn, your feet (and you) are rocking on the floor.  You cannot shoot accurately if you do not have a solid foundation.
No I don't have a flat shoe

- Are you pulling the rifle back STRAIGHT into your shoulder?
Not really pulling, it just rests there
- Are you pulling the trigger STRAIGHT BACK?
I think I am but how to be sure?
- - Are you snatching at the trigger when the target comes into sight picture, or are you holding the sight picture as you squeeze the trigger?
I start increasing the trigger pressure when I have proper sight picture and it just goes off.
- - Are you releasing the shot within 6 seconds of coming on target?
It may be a little bit longer sometimes but not much
- Do you wear glasses?  Are they progressive or prescribed for 10m shooting?
-No glasses, I have good eyesight
Are you keeping a shooting log?
I do keep a digital record of every target sheet
- What time of the day are you shooting?
I just have to shoot when I have time and the weather allows
- What is the lighting conditions on the target?
Daylight
- Are you drinking coffee or other cafinated drink before shooting?
I try to avoid those at least 3 hours before shooting
For AR and AP separately:
- How often do you practice; number of days per week.
2
- How long do you practice; number of shots and duration/time.
1-2 hours, maybe 60 to 100 shots

Part 2 - 'local grouping'

Are you looking at the target with a spotting scope between shots?

No I don't have a scope but I can see the holes pretty well without a scope.

On a multi-bull target, is there a pattern of your  'local groups' relative to the bull that you shot center on? 
I don't think so, there might be 4 bulls with center hits and one with 9 o'clock sevens for example.

It could be sight related.
Are you shooting with a clear front sight insert or metal bar?
With the clear insert, your eye is also seeing the other bulls, and that might be confusing your brain.
I have a normal metal ring front post with two narrow strips holding the ring in center, front tunnel is 22/13 mm dia and rear iris is 1.5 mm.

Is the 5-bull target put onto a larger backer? 
Or is there just empty air at the edge of the target?  This could make it harder to aim at the outer bulls, resulting in an offset.
I was thinking this too but it didn't really change anything.

Are you resetting your stance for each bull, or just shifting your rifle over?
same stance all the time


What happens when you shoot a single bull target?
Average score may be little higher but I'm not sure because targets with more than 5 shots per bull are hard to score accurately and I have to manually go and change the target and it breaks the stance more often.
[/quote]

Hoosier Daddy:
I am interested in this as well.

ac12:
What 10m AR and AP are you shooting?

- Is the bottom of your shoe FLAT ?  If it is worn, your feet (and you) are rocking on the floor.  You cannot shoot accurately if you do not have a solid foundation.
No I don't have a flat shoe
>  If you are rocking on the floor, you cannot shoot well. 
I suggest you get a shoe with as FLAT a sole/bottom as you can find; some tennis shoes, skateboard shoes, etc.  Shooting in your bare feet or socks is better than a shoe with a worn rounded bottom.
Then use those shoes ONLY for shooting, so it won’t get worn and rounded like your regular shoes.

- Are you pulling the rifle back STRAIGHT into your shoulder?
Not really pulling, it just rests there
> The butt of the rifle needs to be pulled into your shoulder, to help stabilize the rifle.  Not HARD, but firmly enough to stabilize the rifle.  I am talking about SSP, co2 or CA rifle, NOT a spring rifle. 
The sliding sledge spring match rifles like the FWB 300 and Anschutz 380, have to be pulled FIRMLY into the shoulder, so the recoilless mechanism works properly.

- Are you pulling the trigger STRAIGHT BACK?
I think I am but how to be sure?
> You would pivot your trigger finger ONLY on the 2nd joint, so the tip of your finger is moving STRAIGHT back.
> And do a LOT of dry fire exercises, and really pay attention to your trigger finger.
> I had this problem myself, and only figured it out by dry firing A LOT, and really paying attention to my trigger finger. 

- - Are you snatching at the trigger when the target comes into sight picture, or are you holding the sight picture as you squeeze the trigger?
I start increasing the trigger pressure when I have proper sight picture and it just goes off.
> Good    ;D

- - Are you releasing the shot within 6 seconds of coming on target?
It may be a little bit longer sometimes but not much
>  The theory here is that you want to shoot before you get tired and your wobble increases.  The longer you hold past 6 sec, the more your wobble increases.  Note that 6 sec is a general guideline, each person is different, some shorter some longer, before the wobble increases.  Once your wobble increases, ABORT the shot, and start over.

Are you keeping a shooting log?
I do keep a digital record of every target sheet
> A shooting log is a paper diary/log; date, time, where you are shooting, shooting conditions (temp, wind, lighting, etc.), how you shot, self-evaluation, etc.

- What time of the day are you shooting?
I just have to shoot when I have time and the weather allows

- What is the lighting conditions on the target?
Daylight
>  The direction of the sun can affect how your eye see the target.  This shows up if you are shooting at different times of the day, with the sun at different angles to the target.
>  For AP are you under shade, or in the sun.  The sun on the sights, if at different angles could change how the sights appear.

>  If you are exposed, to the wind, that is a stability factor also.

For AR and AP separately:
- How often do you practice; number of days per week.
2
> Not often enough. 
> My AR coach told me that to stay where you are 2-3 days a week, to improve 4-5 days a week.

- How long do you practice; number of shots and duration/time.
1-2 hours, maybe 60 to 100 shots
>  This is normally OK for ONE discipline, AR or AP (60 shot matches), but not both. 
>  So you are shooting 30-50 shots AR  +  30-50 shots AP.  But you are shooting shorter 20 and 40 shot matches, so it might be OK, except that you are only shooting 2x a week.

> In your practice, because you are splitting the practice between both AR and AP, the practice time is diluted.  You are only shooting 60-100 shots for AR, and 60-100 shots for AP, in a week.  This really is not enough shots to improve.
If you want to improve, you need to shoot more often, and get more shots down range.
With limited practice time, I suggest concentrating on ONE discipline, either AR or AP, but not both.

Part 2 - 'local grouping'

- Are you looking at the target with a spotting scope between shots?
No I don't have a scope but I can see the holes pretty well without a scope.
>  Man you have GOOD eyes !
>  Since you can see the pellet holes with your eye, you might be shooting to shoot the hole, rather than shooting to shoot the bull.

Where are you focusing your sighting eye; front sight or target?
You should be focusing on the front sight, and let the target blur.

It could be sight related.
Are you shooting with a clear front sight insert or metal bar?
With the clear insert, your eye is also seeing the other bulls, and that might be confusing your brain.
I have a normal metal ring front post with two narrow strips holding the ring in center, front tunnel is 22/13 mm dia and rear iris is 1.5 mm.
> hmm 22mm is FWB, but I don’t recognize the 13mm tube.
> The sight with the bar is sometimes easier to shoot than the clear inserts.  Looking at the bar, you can also see if you are holding the rifle level or at a consistent cant angle.

What happens when you shoot a single bull target?
Average score may be little higher but I'm not sure because targets with more than 5 shots per bull are hard to score accurately and I have to manually go and change the target and it breaks the stance more often.
>  The reason for this question, is that my eye sometimes gets confused when it can see more than one bull.  And the closer the bulls are together the worse the problem.  This problem goes away with a single bull target.
>  As you noted, you NEED to be able to score EVERY shot.  As you get better, you will have to shoot less shots per bull, to be able to score EVERY shot.  Example, I normally shoot 5 shots per AP target, but on a GOOD day, I have to shoot only 3 shots per target, to be able to score EVERY shot.

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