GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: nervoustrigger on May 27, 2016, 12:01:17 PM
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I've been wanting to build a lightweight carbine for my boys to shoot, and Pyramyd's recent 20% sale gave me the incentive to order up the parts. So into the cart went a Crosman 2240, steel breech kit, and shoulder stock. From Amazon came a 13ci Ninja bottle and I already had a QB tank block.
I stayed up late Tuesday night working in the shop doing the cutting and drilling. While I was fitting the tank block, this expert hunter stopped in and kept me company for a couple of hours.
(http://i.imgur.com/DLdclgp.jpg)
For the life of me I don't know why the photo turned out so miserable, but at least I now know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll pop.
Converting a 2240 to bottle fed is fairly straightforward but there were a few things that needed to be sorted out. Firstly, the 2240's valve is designed to seal to the face of a CO2 cartridge so I needed to devise a way to seal it to the air tube. Turns out that was easy enough with some creative use of O-rings. I simply removed the valve's O-ring and replaced it with two -013 O-rings followed by a -112 on top of them. The following picture is not of a 2240 valve but it illustrates the concept.
(http://i.imgur.com/0HXXgpS.jpg)
Other valve mods included chopping off the piercing pin and removing the nose so air can flow into the valve better.
Secondly, pressurizing the whole tube puts substantially more force on the valve so I secured it to the tube with 3 high-strength M4 screws.
(http://i.imgur.com/aRLma6M.jpg)
Thirdly, the front grip frame screw goes into the air tube so I applied a generous amount of threadlocker, and then reached into the tube with a skewer to apply a bit of epoxy over the top of it. Sorry, no photos.
With these things done, the gun is holding air perfectly. It's a decidedly awkward looking carbine with the stubby barrel but that will be addressed shortly when I convert it to .177 with a longer barrel.
(http://i.imgur.com/7mTYHs7.jpg)
Right now it is shooting 14.3gr CPHP at 515fps for 8.4fpe on a standard regulator output of 850psi. That seems decent for a barrel shorter than most drinking straws. I don't know what it did stock on CO2 because...well, I took it out of the box and tore it apart and took a hacksaw to it ;D
Having done a little cleanup work on the barrel, it's already showing the potential to be a 25 yard squirrel slayer and it just feels so lightweight compared to a wood-stocked rifle. It is spring squirrel season here and tomorrow I plan to return to the pecan orchard. I usually conceal myself in a hedgerow and I've been having some squirrels sneak up on me from behind and overhead. Maneuvering my full-sized rifle in there for a shot is not practical so tomorrow I'll have the 2240 in hand for close quarters work.
If it gets blooded tomorrow, I'll report back in the hunting gate. And I will update this thread with build details as it goes.
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An owl landed in your shop? Now that is cool!
That a lizard hanging from its beak?
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r563/mkdive/Airguns/owl_in_flight_zpsu7fx87tn.jpg) (http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/mkdive/media/Airguns/owl_in_flight_zpsu7fx87tn.jpg.html)
Nice build! Looking forward to seeing the build progress.
What is the shot count? Have a string you can post?
I was going to go with a bottle on my 2240 (ended up using a hipac I had already).
I went .177 also, but mine has a 10.1 LW barrel.
I ended up adding one extension to my hipac.....then a second extension (roughly 90cc total).
Got it all sealed up and holding air (sometimes not an easy task with a hipac).
I have a couple 2240s & one 1740 still in the package. I picked them up with the intention of possible builds later (think I still want to build a bottled 1740 like yours).
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r563/mkdive/Airguns/8ce8d12d-0e82-48cb-ac7a-8d9429f46b8e_zpsfftkgdpt.jpg) (http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/mkdive/media/Airguns/8ce8d12d-0e82-48cb-ac7a-8d9429f46b8e_zpsfftkgdpt.jpg.html)
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Thanks, yeah the owl was a pretty cool experience. Totally silent as he glided through the door. He fluttered about a little when he first came in but he ended up settling fairly close to me. He didn't seem distressed at all; several times I walked to within 3 feet of him. He even brought a lizard to snack on :)
I haven't checked shot count yet but I can tell from just the way it sounds that it's bad. Far too much dwell for such a short barrel and there is some obvious hammer bounce. I ordered a spare hammer spring so this weekend I'm going to try either clipping coils or lightening the hammer or both and see if I can get it working more efficiently with the short barrel for now, even though it will need to be retuned for the longer barrel.
My plan is to try shortening a 24" .177 Disco barrel to 18" and see how well it groups. I was pleasantly surprised with the one I used to convert a 2289 pumper to a 1389. If it doesn't perform, I have a LW that I think I can get machined and install. I have to check the OD because it may need a riser.
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sharpshooter what is the forearm on your 2240?
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Last night I got to play with the hammer spring. The stock spring measures 0.30" OD x 2.0" L and is made from 0.032" wire. I had to cut it down 20% to 1.60" long before the velocity began to fall. It went from 515fps down to 465fps. I added a 0.06" spacer in the end cap to bring it back up to 510fps, basically where I started. It is noticeably quieter now but there is still some audible bounce. This will hold me over until the longer .177 barrel goes on.
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You may want to try to make SSG for it, here is "how to" make easy external SSG for 2240.
http://www.marauderairrifle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=12211 (http://www.marauderairrifle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=12211)
PS: There's a post in the SSG thread but its just to big to search...
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PS: There's a post in the SSG thread but its just to big to search...
[/quote]This will hold me over until the longer .177 barrel goes on.
...
here is "how to" make easy external SSG for 2240.
On second thought, maybe that won't hold me until the longer barrel goes on. ;D
Thanks, that's way too easy to not give it a try.
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Okay, I decided I wanted to ensure the spring guide had no threads to snag the coils of the spring so I took a piece of 3/16" cold rolled steel rod and tapped both ends to #10-32. I then turned down a standard hex nut to an OD of 0.30" to capture the spring. The parts laid out:
(http://i.imgur.com/OTdm8wR.jpg)
Dry fitted together:
(http://i.imgur.com/SYwdYGf.jpg)
And lastly, on the gun:
(http://i.imgur.com/pu6yLbG.jpg)
I played around just a bit with the gap adjustment until the velocity came down from 510fps to 460fps. It was noticeably quieter and the braaaap sound was either much improved or gone altogether. But I decided I wanted to keep it tuned to around 500fps so I reduced the gap until it did. The resulting gap is 0.030". It's still pretty loud which is to be expected for keeping it near its max velocity, but the bounce is improved so that will save air.
Thanks again for the link!
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sharpshooter what is the forearm on your 2240?
Its from crosmods. Think its for the disco.
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Okay, I decided I wanted to ensure the spring guide had no threads to snag the coils of the spring so I took a piece of 3/16" cold rolled steel rod and tapped both ends to #10-32. I then turned down a standard hex nut to an OD of 0.30" to capture the spring. The parts laid out:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/SSG%20parts_zpsgmagggio.jpg)
Dry fitted together:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/SSG%20annot_zpsidiwsct0.jpg)
And lastly, on the gun:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/SSG%20installed_zpsb1i062f6.jpg)
I played around just a bit with the gap adjustment until the velocity came down from 510fps to 460fps. It was noticeably quieter and the braaaap sound was either much improved or gone altogether. But I decided I wanted to keep it tuned to around 500fps so I reduced the gap until it did. The resulting gap is 0.030". It's still pretty loud which is to be expected for keeping it near its max velocity, but the bounce is improved so that will save air.
Thanks again for the link!
Nice execution of a 22xx SSG! I have a .25 SSG (yet to do another). I have read a couple threads with 22xx ssg and the shot count was pretty amazing.
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Thanks again for the link!
No problem, I made that 2240 SSG earlier as it's really easy to do. There's no need for two o-rings but the spring is light so this shouldn't be a problem.
This is my 2240 now with the red dot sight (self made mounts for weaver rail):
Set at 4.5-4.6 fpe and about 100+ shots...
(http://s20.postimg.org/tqtyizxq4/2240_SSG_RDot.jpg)
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Well, the 2240 got a pretty thorough workout today. Last night after we got back from a family gathering, I was talking to my boys about getting outside the next day to shoot it, and we decided it would be fun to put together a spoon spinner so we went and picked up some supplies. This morning we went out to the shop and put it together:
(http://i.imgur.com/iKTtXWV.jpg)
We set it up at 25 yards along with the knockdown squirrel target:
(http://i.imgur.com/Qv9WV5n.jpg)
And here is the big brother taking a turn:
(http://i.imgur.com/ouJwh0c.jpg)
And next:
(http://i.imgur.com/1z3bSxK.jpg)
And next:
(http://i.imgur.com/EzmAC2q.jpg)
Here's a quick clip of the spinner getting smacked:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl3taOMAlk8&feature=player_embedded#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl3taOMAlk8&feature=player_embedded#ws)
The good news is they were all doing a great job hitting them at 25 yards. The soup spoons were pretty much a sure thing. The teaspoons were more of a challenge.
And the SSG really did the trick. We shot all we wanted on a partial fill. The day started at 2500psi and ended at 1600psi.
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Very nice job setting that up Jason. Looks like a fun day.
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Thanks, Jerry! The boys had a good time with it. And when I got home from work yesterday evening, they wanted to head out and shoot. I'll call that a success :)
I'm looking forward to switching it over to .177 and putting a LDC on it to make it more backyard friendly. Also, the 4x Horton crossbow scope it's wearing now has a reticle like a pair of railroad cross ties so last night I ordered a 3-9x32 Bugbuster for it that I think will suit it better.
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The .177 barrel came in yesterday so I promptly headed out to the shop and cleaned up the crown, leade, and barrel port. Then I headed inside and broke out the cleaning rod and J-B Bore Paste and Bore Brite and gave the bore a good scrubbing. Here it is after getting stitched up on the operating table:
(http://i.imgur.com/neSUngE.jpg)
I also ordered a long-nose bolt probe which I modified slightly. The nose is somewhat fat, restricting airflow through the barrel port, so I turned down the diameter and shaped the taper a bit. It was also an opportunity to address a mildly irritating tendency for the bolt probe to slide forward when trying to load a pellet. I embedded a small magnet into the back to make it stick to the cocking pin and hold it out of the way.
(http://i.imgur.com/LQOspxF.jpg)
It works well enough but if I were to do it again, I would instead use a magnet roughly the same diameter as the bolt.
On to the chronograph. With the SSG bypassed, it was tossing the 10.5gr CPUMs at 755fps for 13.3fpe. I then adjusted the SSG somewhat arbitrarily to get 700fps (11.4fpe). The much lighter RWS Basic wadcutters (7.0gr) were leaving the muzzle at about 830fps (10.7fpe) at this state of tune.
Then I spent a little time getting the scope set up at 25 yards. The cheap RWS wadcutters were banging the small spoons on the spinner target 100% of the time, and the first 3 types of pellets I tried had a pretty similar POI so that looks encouraging. With 5 boys in the household, this gun will get used a lot so a barrel that isn't pellet fussy is very much a welcome thing.
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"opportunity to address a mildly irritating tendency for the bolt probe to slide forward when trying to load a pellet."
Man do I hate that. ^^^
Nice numbers with it Jason. How many shots are you getting with a fill?
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Nice setup, what is with the sound with a longer barrel? On my short factory barreled 2240 I have to put moderator on...
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Hi Jerry, I did some plinking yesterday evening after work and my guess is I pulled the trigger about 50 times and used about 500psi so that would put the shot count somewhere in the vicinity of 200. I could be way off though, I wasn't paying close attention. I plan to look at it this weekend and report back. BTW, 200 shots wouldn't be particularly good efficiency. I will say this, though...several times after shooting a while I've glanced at the gauge and was pleased at how slowly the needle is moving. :)
thelast88, yes the report is much improved with the longer barrel. Subjectively I would say it cut the report in half. I'm going to try fashioning an LDC for it this weeekend to make it even more backyard friendly.
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In terms of how it's shooting, late last night I went out and shot 5 groups with 5 different pellets at 25 yards and I am stoked with the results. All 5 pellets had a similar POI, and the two best groups measured 0.32" and 0.36". With a 4x non-AO scope, that really exceeded my wildest expectations. I'll put up a scan of the targets this evening.
I have to think it can do slightly better when the 3-9x scope arrives and by trying different pellets. But if not, I can live with it.
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Okay I just ran 100 shots through it and it used 900psi so it should get about 240 shots on a fill. That will do nicely. Efficiency comes out to 1.41fpe/ci.
And here's a pic of the first 5 groups at 25 yards:
(http://i.imgur.com/sjkmUEN.jpg)
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240 shots! Wow!
It looks like it like lighter pellets too.
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Just a quick update to say I am impressed with how well the .177 Disco barrel is shooting the Air Arms 8.4gr. Granted, it did not have the pilot damage, all I had to do to the crown was touch it up with the brass screw technique. As a reminder, I also did the normal stuff to deburr the barrel port, break the sharp leading edge of the rifling in the leade, and polished the bore with J-B.
Anyway, yesterday after work I went out to shoot it a bit and decided to see how it would do on the 43 yard target at the end of my property. A few shots on paper told me it was about 3/4 of a dot low at that distance at 9x magnification (zeroed at 25). I have a string of 1/2" diameter Mardi Gras beads hanging from the target so I figured what the heck. Shot 1: hit. Shot 2: hit. Shot 3: hit. Shot 4: hit. Shot 5: miss. Then shots 6 and 7 were hits. Sweet! That's really about as good as I can shoot. I can't ask for any better than that.
I'm really liking this gun. Lightweight (4-5lbs maybe), quiet, and pinpoint accurate. With over 200 shots on a fill and not very pellet picky, it's great for plinking and targets and for teaching the boys safety and shooting technique. And with the AA 8.4 running about 12fpe, it's equally suited for gray squirrel and chipmunk duty.
Very satisfying build, indeed.
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Awesome!
I did have another question for you. Did you cut your airtube? It looks alot shorter than a normal 2240 airtube.
Who's tankblock did you use?
I plan on doing something similar when i can. I am just debating if i should start with a custom shop 2240 with a 24 inch barrel or from scratch an use a .177 cal crosman challenger barrel an inlet a 2260 stock. What route would you suggest?
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That's a great job you've done on that little plinker. 10fpe is enough for the backyard and 240 accurate shots is amazeballs. Hope to hear more!
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Hi Michael, the tube is the stock 2240 tube with just the threaded end cut off. That was to get back to the full tube thickness to support the QB79 tank block. So it is slightly shorter, but probably also looks short due to the long, slender Disco barrel.
I will attempt to answer your question about the custom shop vs. from scratch approach but let me know if I go astray. Firstly, I will make the assumption that if you go with the custom shop, your long barrel options are limited to .22 cal. Whether that is a good choice depends on two key considerations, in my opinion.
The first consideration has to do with your shot count and energy goals and typical shooting distances. Or if you are interested mostly in hunting, I would rephrase this question into what quarry and shooting distances? Depending on your goals, the choice of caliber may lead to some ripple effect considerations to the rest of the build. So I would want to know more about those things in order to know where to take the discussion.
The second consideration is that Crosman's .22 barrels still seem to be more of a gamble than the .177 in terms of accuracy and being pellet fussy.
Regarding the scratch approach, I don't know if the Challenger is a drop-in replacement but if it is, that should be a fine choice since it is a quality Lothar Walther barrel. A LW barrel is somewhat expensive compared to a Crosman barrel but this is one of those cases where it's easy to justify. What I mean is, it's peanuts compared to buying a LW blank, getting it machined, and then getting it blued. Here you get the benefit of Crosman's buying power. At the same time, I know you've written of being a student without a lot of disposable income so if you have more time than money, taking a .177 Disco barrel and investing a little sweat equity can produce very good results. Not everybody wants to be a gunsmith though.
John, thank you, sir! I'll see about posting some pictures of targets this weekend.
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Hi Michael, the tube is the stock 2240 tube with just the threaded end cut off. That was to get back to the full tube thickness to support the QB79 tank block. So it is slightly shorter, but probably also looks short due to the long, slender Disco barrel.
I will attempt to answer your question about the custom shop vs. from scratch approach but let me know if I go astray. Firstly, I will make the assumption that if you go with the custom shop, your long barrel options are limited to .22 cal. Whether that is a good choice depends on two key considerations, in my opinion.
The first consideration has to do with your shot count and energy goals and typical shooting distances. Or if you are interested mostly in hunting, I would rephrase this question into what quarry and shooting distances? Depending on your goals, the choice of caliber may lead to some ripple effect considerations to the rest of the build. So I would want to know more about those things in order to know where to take the discussion.
The second consideration is that Crosman's .22 barrels still seem to be more of a gamble than the .177 in terms of accuracy and being pellet fussy.
Regarding the scratch approach, I don't know if the Challenger is a drop-in replacement but if it is, that should be a fine choice since it is a quality Lothar Walther barrel. A LW barrel is somewhat expensive compared to a Crosman barrel but this is one of those cases where it's easy to justify. What I mean is, it's peanuts compared to buying a LW blank, getting it machined, and then getting it blued. Here you get the benefit of Crosman's buying power. At the same time, I know you've written of being a student without a lot of disposable income so if you have more time than money, taking a .177 Disco barrel and investing a little sweat equity can produce very good results. Not everybody wants to be a gunsmith though.
John, thank you, sir! I'll see about posting some pictures of targets this weekend.
Thank you for the answers! That is a big help knowing about the airtube threads.
You actually can get a .177 caliber barrel on the 2240 carbine in the custom shop. Up to 24 inches.
The challenger barrel should drop in as it drops into a disco, so i have been told, and the 22xx breech can use the disco barrels.
Yes, i am thinking strongly about having it in .177 cal.
What tank block are you using? I am assuming the JDS airman version.
The only detail i cant make my mind up about is, either using the 2240 trigger group or using a discovery/2260 trigger and inlet a 2260 stock as this gun really needs a forearm. If i build from a custom shop 2240 carbine it has a forearm, but it is very tiny. The 2260 stock allows all the real estate that is needed to even mohnt a sling and bipod, but will be allot of work to inlet.
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Okay thanks, 10-4 on having the CCS option to switch the 2240 to .177 cal. And yes, if the Challenger barrel will drop into a Disco, it will work fine on a 1377 or 2240. I felt like I should have known that but I haven't heard much about retrofitting the Challenger barrel.
The tank block I used is a QB79 type as in from Industry Brand, not the one from JDS. The Industry part is already overpriced as a mass-produced part but the JDS is downright absurd. Yes, it has the screws positioned better for strength when using higher pressures but it's easy enough to pin a QB block to bolster it.
One way to add a forestock to a build like this is to get the 2260 tube as you suggested, then with a couple of extra parts you can attach the P-rod / 1720T forestock. Those parts are a threaded tab that attaches to the front of the trigger frame and a barrel band with a tapped hole. They provide attachment points for the forestock at each end. Not as attractive or beefy as an inletted wood stock but easier and lighter weight and probably cheaper. I took some notes from Ron a few weeks ago and pulled part numbers from the exploded drawings. I'll check tonight and list out the part numbers.
You mentioned there is a CCS option for a small forestock. I wonder if maybe I'm describing the same thing. Do you have any information on it...a part number, a picture, or a link?
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I keep rereading the thread and I can't find what psi the regulator is set.
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Standard Ninja regulator at 850psi.
Originally the plan was for only about 8fpe for plinking, and that is probably closer to what I would want if I shorten the barrel. But the way it is shooting at 12fpe and the nice shot count, I don't really want to risk changing it!
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If it ain't broke...
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I dont have the part number and it is crazy hard to copy and paste on this tablet. But if you go to crosman's custom shop and select the 2240 carbine it will have the mirco sized forearm on it.
Actually, i didnt want to use a 2260 airtube, sorry if i made it seem like that. I was going to use the same 2240 airtube and just inlet the stock. It seems like there is enough material to do so.
Do you have a link to the tank block you used. Using Google to find "industry qb79 tank block" doesnt yeild a bunch of results, mainly the tank block @#$%^ sellls.
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Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, that is definitely shorter than the P-rod / 1720T forestock. See here:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-marauder-pcp-air-pistol?m=2367 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-marauder-pcp-air-pistol?m=2367)
I scaled them based on the trigger frame and it looks like the P-rod forestock is about 45% longer.
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Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, that is definitely shorter than the P-rod / 1720T forestock. See here:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-marauder-pcp-air-pistol?m=2367 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-marauder-pcp-air-pistol?m=2367)
I scaled them based on the trigger frame and it looks like the P-rod forestock is about 45% longer.
yes it is.
But i made a mistake, it isn't a 2240 pistol in the custom shop, it is a 2400. Will that work still? Because the 2400 just looks like a 2240 with a longer barrel and stock from the factory.
also, how did you cut your airtube?
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From everything I've read, you should be fine with the 2400KT. The air tube is the same diameter so you can still use a QB tank block. Also, it comes with the steel breech and that is an essential piece in my opinion.
It's a much better buy than taking a 2240 and building it up:
2240 and parts
$60 2240
$25 shoulder stock
$38 steel breech
$20 24" .177 barrel
$143
2400KT configured the same way
$93
So yeah...I was a dum dum for building it from a 2240! >:(
I cut the air tube by wrapping a piece of blue painter's tape around the tube to help establish a square edge to follow. I then cut it with a hacksaw and finished squaring it up with a file, using the tank block to check for a good fit.
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From everything I've read, you should be fine with the 2400KT. The air tube is the same diameter so you can still use a QB tank block. Also, it comes with the steel breech and that is an essential piece in my opinion.
It's a much better buy than taking a 2240 and building it up:
2240 and parts
$60 2240
$25 shoulder stock
$38 steel breech
$20 24" .177 barrel
$143
2400KT configured the same way
$93
So yeah...I was a dum dum for building it from a 2240! >:(
I cut the air tube by wrapping a piece of blue painter's tape around the tube to help establish a square edge to follow. I then cut it with a hacksaw and finished squaring it up with a file, using the tank block to check for a good fit.
You werent a dum dum! You were blazing a new path for everyone to further contine in the wonderful hobby. That is atleast a tootsie pop! ;D That is why that owl came to see you.
Thank you for the tip on cutting the air tube. I was really nervous about that part as i didnt want to have to replqce the whole thing if i messed up. I am still a bit nervous about pinning the tank block. I know to pressurize the tube to 300 or 400 psi after you secured the tank block with the screws, then drill for the cross pin, but i am still afraid to mess it up.
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I said I'd try this weekend to show how it's shooting. Time just about got away from me but I went outside a few minutes ago and set up the flashlight and shot a page at 25 yards. The red dot is 3/8", about the size of an aspirin. I was struggling to hold on target. The reticle covers the dot completely so the results aren't too shabby, I think.
(http://i.imgur.com/ijQBpmx.jpg)
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Darn good shooting, especially with a flashlight for lighting!
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Good shooting.
How long was your airtube after you cut it?
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Thanks, guys!
Michael, the tube measures 7.8in after removing the threads.
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That looks to be a pretty "dang" accurate little rifle; good work!
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hello here.. so, where can this tank block "industry brand" be acquired from?? really would like to have a bottle gun. by the way, nice project there. cheers
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hello here.. so, where can this tank block "industry brand" be acquired from?? really would like to have a bottle gun. by the way, nice project there. cheers
Where you able to get the tank block?
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http://www.ansgear.com/Ninja_Aluminum_Air_Tank_w_Adjustable_Reg_13_3000_p/ninjatank-13.htm (http://www.ansgear.com/Ninja_Aluminum_Air_Tank_w_Adjustable_Reg_13_3000_p/ninjatank-13.htm)
http://www.ansgear.com/Ninja_Aluminum_Air_Tank_w_Pro_V2_Regulator_13_p/ninjatank-13prov2.htm (http://www.ansgear.com/Ninja_Aluminum_Air_Tank_w_Pro_V2_Regulator_13_p/ninjatank-13prov2.htm)
I have a question.
Which is the right tank, and how to you get the regulator to 1100psi? The description says it can only be adjusted between 450psi and 850psi.
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The top one is set at 850psi, a pressure roughly equivalent to CO2 at room temperature. That is the type I used for this build getting 12-13fpe with the long .177 barrel and some modest porting. That would probably yield 15-16fpe in .22 cal depending on pellet weight.
Its setpoint is determined by a coil spring plus some thin shims. You can reduce the pressure by removing shims based on Ninja's recipe. Seldom would one want or need to do that for an air rifle unless you wanted something like a 500fps tune for 10m target shooting or a massive shot count for short range plinking. Increasing the pressure by adding shims is not typically possible, at least not by much.
The bottom one, the SHP model, comes set at 1100psi which may be better if you want higher energy. Instead of a coil spring, it has a stack of Belleville washers. By adding shims or manipulating the Belleville stack, you can bring it up to as much as 1400psi, maybe 1500psi, before the protective burst disk will blow. The QB writeup in my sig has links to a couple of threads on the subject if you are interested.
At the risk of being redundant, 850psi is dangerous enough and 1400psi even more so. Please be sure you understand the dangers of dealing with high pressure air, particularly with respect to anchoring the valve and tank block..
The SHP also has a rotating collar to let you orient the fill nipple and gauge to a preferred position but in my opinion it is an unnecessary luxury because you can orient the standard bottle where you want it and once you pressurize the system, it's not moving.
BTW, you can take the standard regulator and toss the coil spring and install Belleville washers to get the same pressures as with the SHP. For any modifications to the regulator, a pressure tester jig is necessary to determine the new setpoint.
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Thank you for the info. So there isnt a difference between the original regulator and the V2 regulator other than the coil spring for he first one and the washers for the second one?
Sorry i keep asking so many questions. I just want to learn as much as i can to before i start this project.
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Hey nervoustrigger, i forgot to mention this earlier. I found this video series earlier when i was looking up different info about this conversion. Starting at the 13:00 minute mark, is that the pressure testing jig you were talking about?
https://m.youtube.com/results?q=crosman%202240%20pcp&sm=1
I havent seen all of his videos, so i dont know if he gives any wrong advice. But that did catch my eye. Thank you for all of your help!
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The type of spring and the indexable collar are the only significant differences from where I stand.
There are some other small differences. The SHP regulator is a little longer due to the rotating collar and the gauge is smaller. The Foster fitting (fill nipple) may be a shade shorter as well, I can't remember for sure.
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I found this video series earlier when i was looking up different info about this conversion. Starting at the 13:00 minute mark, is that the pressure testing jig you were talking about?
Yes, that's a good example. It's this video for anyone else interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oQdUef8Xb8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oQdUef8Xb8)
You can save the cost of the slide check if you get the adapter recommended by Rob that is linked in my thread on building a small vessel for testing.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=73635.msg706219#msg706219 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=73635.msg706219#msg706219)
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Where is a good place to order the QB79 bottle block from? I don't want to send any money to ^&$@_=s.
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To the best of my knowledge, the only commercial alternative is the pricey one from JDS.
There was some talk months ago about Airgun Depot carrying parts but I have not heard anything since then and I don't see any evidence on their site..
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Yup. Either Archer or JDS or find a machinist and go custom.
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Do you think the 22cu in tank from JDS would be to much for the tube to handle or would you just need some kind of barrel band? I dont hink i would use it for this build, but it does spark an idea for a project way down the line if it can.
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With the larger bottle, the tube won't have any problem supporting its weight in normal use. The potential problem arises that the bottle is sticking out further toward the muzzle. So if anything strikes it out there, it applies more leverage to the attachment points at the air tube. For example, if the gun gets dropped or knocked off a table, or if one were to slip and fall on the gun while trekking through the woods. That makes a stronger case for pinning the block. A couple more options for guarding against that type of damage is to fit a band around the bottle and barrel, or inlet the forestock to cradle the bottle (the stock need not go all the way out to the end of the bottle.
Personally I would not want anything larger than a 17ci on a small bore rifle. I say that not so much because of a safety concern but simply from the standpoint of utility. A huge tank negatively affects weight and balance and I can't think of many circumstances where it is necessary to have so many shots on tap.
I think a 13ci is a good sweet spot for .177 and .22 cal. Here are some examples of shot counts with a decent tune (1.2fpe/ci) or excellent tune (1.5fpe/ci). I somewhat arbitrarily picked energy levels for targets versus hunting but hopefully this will give an idea of what can be expected:
(http://i.imgur.com/BpoZpAm.gif)
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Good info Jason, thanks.
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With the larger bottle, the tube won't have any problem supporting its weight in normal use. The potential problem arises that the bottle is sticking out further toward the muzzle. So if anything strikes it out there, it applies more leverage to the attachment points at the air tube. For example, if the gun gets dropped or knocked off a table, or if one were to slip and fall on the gun while trekking through the woods. That makes a stronger case for pinning the block. A couple more options for guarding against that type of damage is to fit a band around the bottle and barrel, or inlet the forestock to cradle the bottle (the stock need not go all the way out to the end of the bottle.
Personally I would not want anything larger than a 17ci on a small bore rifle. I say that not so much because of a safety concern but simply from the standpoint of utility. A huge tank negatively affects weight and balance and I can't think of many circumstances where it is necessary to have so many shots on tap.
I think a 13ci is a good sweet spot for .177 and .22 cal. Here are some examples of shot counts with a decent tune (1.2fpe/ci) or excellent tune (1.5fpe/ci). I somewhat arbitrarily picked energy levels for targets versus hunting but hopefully this will give an idea of what can be expected:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/count_zpssehltyig.gif)
Thank you for the info!
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I've been asked a few times how I sealed the 2240 valve to the air tube using stacked O-rings.
So while I was restoring a Crosman 150 this weekend, I used its valve to mock up the O-ring arrangement and took some pictures. So the pictures are not of a 2240 valve but it illustrates the concept.
(http://i.imgur.com/0HXXgpS.jpg)
I will repeat, don't pressurize the tube until you've bolstered the valve retention.
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I've been asked a few times how I sealed the 2240 valve to the air tube using stacked O-rings.
So while I was restoring a Crosman 150 this weekend, I used its valve to mock up the O-ring arrangement and took some pictures. So the pictures are not of a 2240 valve but it illustrates the concept.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/valve%20mod%20to%20seal%20to%20tube1_zpsfqmhn8yj.jpg)
I will repeat, don't pressurize the tube until you've bolstered the valve retention.
That is awesome! Thank you very much. Since i have never held one in my hand it was hard to picture what you were trying to say.
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jason, do know what screws you used for the tank block ? are they metric ?
thanks
kj
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The QB tank block is tapped for M4 screws. M4-0.7x8
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thank you
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I did a little more work on the gun this weekend. The Crosman skeleton stock was just far too long for the kids to use so I ordered one of the adjustable stocks on ebay for $15 (free shipping) http://www.ebay.com/itm/201612669809 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/201612669809)
(http://i.imgur.com/9bdJX4m.jpg)
And a piece of 3/4" aluminum bar stock from Amazon for $7 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XNP44BK (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XNP44BK)
(http://i.imgur.com/r6sGd84.jpg)
I used the bar stock to make a new tube cap, and used some 3/4" and 1" PVC to fashion an adapter to secure the buttstock to the end cap. Here it is all laid out:
(http://i.imgur.com/LlyiVug.jpg)
A closeup of the end cap and SSG:
(http://i.imgur.com/TSZHJee.jpg)
The adapter installed:
(http://i.imgur.com/1IG52rI.jpg)
And the finished results:
(http://i.imgur.com/kt5mdk0.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/hv3WEnj.jpg)
I'm pleased with how it turned out. Everything fits very solidly and there is no play except for the sliding mechanism of the buttstock itself. And the adjustment range is plenty for everyone.
The only issue I ran into was that the cheek weld was too high for the small 3-9x32 scope on low mounts, so I swapped in another scope in high mounts and that works nicely.
It is shooting the Air Arms 8.4gr at 838fps (13fpe) with an ES of 6fps over 20 shots when I stopped checking. And it continues to demolish the 1/2" Mardi Gras beads hanging from the 43 yard target. A fun little gun!
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Great job, Jason! I really like the low budget trick for pressurizing the tube.
Btw, a 2400 won't work with a tank block unless you replace the tube with one for a 2260. That's what you have to do if you want the forend. The other option (sans forend) is to get a 2300 instead, because it is basically a CCS 2240. The longest barrel available on them is 14.6", so you would have to replace the barrel if you wanted it longer.
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Jason,
Any idea as to the weight of the entire gun?
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Great job, Jason! I really like the low budget trick for pressurizing the tube.
Btw, a 2400 won't work with a tank block unless you replace the tube with one for a 2260. That's what you have to do if you want the forend. The other option (sans forend) is to get a 2300 instead, because it is basically a CCS 2240. The longest barrel available on them is 14.6", so you would have to replace the barrel if you wanted it longer.
Thank you!
Can you fill me in on what it is about the 2400 tube that won't allow it to be pressurized? I'm seriously considering building another, this time holding to the goals I originally set out ;D and the 2400 otherwise looks like a good starting point.
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Ed, I don't know how accurate my scale is but it reads almost 6lbs as shown with the big scope.
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Great job, Jason! I really like the low budget trick for pressurizing the tube.
Btw, a 2400 won't work with a tank block unless you replace the tube with one for a 2260. That's what you have to do if you want the forend. The other option (sans forend) is to get a 2300 instead, because it is basically a CCS 2240. The longest barrel available on them is 14.6", so you would have to replace the barrel if you wanted it longer.
A better starting point would be the 2400KT from the Crosman custom shop, it would even be cheaper as Jason and i discussed earlier in the thread.
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I did a little more work on the gun this weekend. The Crosman skeleton stock was just far too long for the kids to use so I ordered one of the adjustable stocks on ebay for $15 (free shipping) http://www.ebay.com/itm/201612669809 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/201612669809)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/adjustable%20stock_zpsiogrc3wq.jpg)
And a piece of 3/4" aluminum bar stock from Amazon for $7 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XNP44BK (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XNP44BK)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/bar%20stock_zpsxdt2f9cc.jpg)
I used the bar stock to make a new tube cap, and used some 3/4" and 1" PVC to fashion an adapter to secure the buttstock to the end cap. Here it is all laid out:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/exploded_zpso1syzgyi.jpg)
A closeup of the end cap and SSG:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/end%20cap_zpsbho8xzre.jpg)
The adapter installed:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/adapter_zpslgf9575q.jpg)
And the finished results:
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/finished1_zpsh0tawtwg.jpg)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/finished2_zps086gwibk.jpg)
I'm pleased with how it turned out. Everything fits very solidly and there is no play except for the sliding mechanism of the buttstock itself. And the adjustment range is plenty for everyone.
The only issue I ran into was that the cheek weld was too high for the small 3-9x32 scope on low mounts, so I swapped in another scope in high mounts and that works nicely.
It is shooting the Air Arms 8.4gr at 838fps (13fpe) with an ES of 6fps over 20 shots when I stopped checking. And it continues to demolish the 1/2" Mardi Gras beads hanging from the 43 yard target. A fun little gun!
The stock idea is awesome nervoustrigger. Mine i plan on trying to use the TKO 22 tube stock.
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Nice job Jason, looks great too.
I have the same problem with AR stocks and low rings.
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Michael, the TKO tube stocks are awesome!
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz287/footballplayerchris/IMAG0179_zps8vb8wkq2.jpg)
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Michael, the TKO tube stocks are awesome!
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz287/footballplayerchris/IMAG0179_zps8vb8wkq2.jpg)
WOW!!!! All three of those are beautiful! I have to ask, is that a don cothran 2260 PCP tube, And what length barrel is that?
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That is a 16" Cothran Disco tube with a 14.5" barrel.
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That is a 16" Cothran Disco tube with a 14.5" barrel.
Nice! I was talking to him about a few different build ideas. One was his 2260 pcp tube, steel breech, TKO 22 tube stock, 16 or 18 inch barrel, forearm up in the air. Maybe a GMAC custom 2250 long forearm.
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That's about where I'm at with this one.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz287/footballplayerchris/IMAG0185_zps1btr8boq.jpg)
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That's about where I'm at with this one.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz287/footballplayerchris/IMAG0185_zps1btr8boq.jpg)
Nice! I think i would personal go with a 16 inch .177 barrel and Rocker1 LDC on a build like that.
Do you plan on using a shroud? Because i just noticed the riser under the breech.
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I have a question. It is hypothetical.
If some one was to build a 25 cal version of a bottled 22xx airgun, what length do you think would be optimal for the airtube?
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How many shots do you want and at what power?
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How many shots do you want and at what power?
Dont know. It was just a thought that passed through my head that wont leave. I think i would value power over shot count. That is the whole reason to go to 25 cal over 22cal.
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How many shots do you want and at what power?
Dont know. It was just a thought that passed through my head that wont leave. I think i would value power over shot count. That is the whole reason to go to 25 cal over 22cal.
As long as I have 20 good shots I'm good! When I hunt with powder burners I never use a heck of a lot of ammo anyway :D
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If building a .25 and using a bottle . 9" of tube ahead of the valve will give enough plenum for about 50fpe . If not using a bottle I'd would get a 24"tube , that would give an acceptable shot count .IMO
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Great job, Jason! I really like the low budget trick for pressurizing the tube.
Btw, a 2400 won't work with a tank block unless you replace the tube with one for a 2260. That's what you have to do if you want the forend. The other option (sans forend) is to get a 2300 instead, because it is basically a CCS 2240. The longest barrel available on them is 14.6", so you would have to replace the barrel if you wanted it longer.
A better starting point would be the 2400KT from the Crosman custom shop, it would even be cheaper as Jason and i discussed earlier in the thread.
The 2400KT is the one I was referring to. A 2300KT is easier to add a bottle.
Can you fill me in on what it is about the 2400 tube that won't allow it to be pressurized? I'm seriously considering building another, this time holding to the goals I originally set out ;D and the 2400 otherwise looks like a good starting point.
It's not that the 2400KT tube can't be pressurized; there's not enough tube beyond the barrel band to remove the threaded portion, and the forend makes it difficult to relocate the band.
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I needed a little shooting therapy after work this evening so I grabbed a bunch of different tins off the shelf and did some pellet testing at 25 yards.
Overall it appears to not be very pellet picky and rather tame considering the unsupported length of the barrel. The sub-MoA groups are highlighted green, the very best of which was 0.5 MoA.
(http://i.imgur.com/RNOga3s.jpg)
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JSB seems the way, yeah?
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Great job, Jason! I really like the low budget trick for pressurizing the tube.
Btw, a 2400 won't work with a tank block unless you replace the tube with one for a 2260. That's what you have to do if you want the forend. The other option (sans forend) is to get a 2300 instead, because it is basically a CCS 2240. The longest barrel available on them is 14.6", so you would have to replace the barrel if you wanted it longer.
A better starting point would be the 2400KT from the Crosman custom shop, it would even be cheaper as Jason and i discussed earlier in the thread.
The 2400KT is the one I was referring to. A 2300KT is easier to add a bottle.
Can you fill me in on what it is about the 2400 tube that won't allow it to be pressurized? I'm seriously considering building another, this time holding to the goals I originally set out ;D and the 2400 otherwise looks like a good starting point.
It's not that the 2400KT tube can't be pressurized; there's not enough tube beyond the barrel band to remove the threaded portion, and the forend makes it difficult to relocate the band.
How exactly is that true? The 2400KT is basically a custom shop 2240 with a forearm and stock, and this whole thread is a about a bottle PCP that nervoustrigger made from a 2240. The forearm is only attached by a 2250 barrel band on the 2400KT. That comes off just like a standard barrel band.
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I needed a little shooting therapy after work this evening so I grabbed a bunch of different tins off the shelf and did some pellet testing at 25 yards.
Overall it appears to not be very pellet picky and rather tame considering the unsupported length of the barrel. The sub-MoA groups are highlighted green, the very best of which was 0.5 MoA.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/jmneal1/projects/airguns/2240%20HPA/2240%20.177%20HPA%20groups%2020160809_zpsp40eqzcu.jpg)
Wow! That is some great grouping! This is still with the factory barrel?
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Great job, Jason! I really like the low budget trick for pressurizing the tube.
Btw, a 2400 won't work with a tank block unless you replace the tube with one for a 2260. That's what you have to do if you want the forend. The other option (sans forend) is to get a 2300 instead, because it is basically a CCS 2240. The longest barrel available on them is 14.6", so you would have to replace the barrel if you wanted it longer.
A better starting point would be the 2400KT from the Crosman custom shop, it would even be cheaper as Jason and i discussed earlier in the thread.
The 2400KT is the one I was referring to. A 2300KT is easier to add a bottle.
Can you fill me in on what it is about the 2400 tube that won't allow it to be pressurized? I'm seriously considering building another, this time holding to the goals I originally set out ;D and the 2400 otherwise looks like a good starting point.
It's not that the 2400KT tube can't be pressurized; there's not enough tube beyond the barrel band to remove the threaded portion, and the forend makes it difficult to relocate the band.
How exactly is that true? The 2400KT is basically a custom shop 2240 with a forearm and stock, and this whole thread is a about a bottle PCP that nervoustrigger made from a 2240. The forearm is only attached by a 2250 barrel band on the 2400KT. That comes off just like a standard barrel band.
Pardon me. I left out an option: throw out the forearm and barrel band, and buy a different barrel band. Or just use the barrel band, complete with open threaded holes, without the forearm it is intended to support. ::)
Sheesh. I was just trying to be helpful, since I have multiple 2400s (one of which is getting a JDS Airman tank block and a 2260 tube) a 2300, 2240 and 2260.
The only reason I bought a 2260 tube for my 2400 tanker is because the 2400/2250 tube isn't long enough to use both a tank block and the forearm.
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This is true.....about 1/2" short of what is needed. Also have to consider the block screws as well when you are measuring the length of the tube.
Gipper
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JSB seems the way, yeah?
Indeed, funny how that happens again and again :)
Wow! That is some great grouping! This is still with the factory barrel?
Thank you! Those groups were shot with the forestock rested on a pedestal but the buttstock shouldered, so not quite as steady as shooting off a table with bags. So yeah, I was pretty happy with some of those. The barrel isn't the stock shorty .22 cal but it is a Crosman barrel...a .177 Discovery barrel #1760SE-001 which has been the recipient of the usual barrel prep.
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JSB seems the way, yeah?
Indeed, funny how that happens again and again :)
Wow! That is some great grouping! This is still with the factory barrel?
Thank you! Those groups were shot with the forestock rested on a pedestal but the buttstock shouldered, so not quite as steady as shooting off a table with bags. So yeah, I was pretty happy with some of those. The barrel isn't the stock shorty .22 cal but it is a Crosman barrel...a .177 Discovery barrel #1760SE-001 which has been the recipient of the usual barrel prep.
I knew you replaced the 22 barrel with the 177 barrel. Sorry i mis~worded that. I was asking if that was still the crosman. 177 barrel. Glad to see that it is as that is some very impressive groups.
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Man first of all great job on this little carbine, I liked it so much I think I want to copy a similar design towards my son's. Everything makes sense to me except one thing with the valve. I understand the stacking O-ring and all that but you mentioned that you ported the valve out a bit. What did you drill the port out to?
Did you also drill out the piercing needle or what? Sorry if I somehow missed that.
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Hi CJ, thanks for the kind words. I did not take pictures of the valve but those changes are pretty easy to explain. I simply cut off the piercing pin flush to the back of the poppet body. I then enlarged the opening that the piercing pin had rested in, drilling it out to the same diameter as the pocket where the neck of a CO2 powerlet sits.
I did not enlarge the exhaust port; no need for .177 cal. However I did enlarge the opening in the transfer port. I went as far as I could while still leaving the shoulders on each side...if I remember correctly, the final drill size was about 0.150" (#25 or #24 bit). I looked at using a piece of poly tubing instead but I did not like the fit.
I don't recall the size of the barrel port but if it was smaller than about 0.132", I would have drilled it out to 0.136" or 0.141" (#29 or #28). That's pushing it in terms of avoiding chambering issues so it's important to deburr the inside of the port where the pellet passes by. That is trivial work with a 1/16" or 3/32" diamond ball from those little $10 kits from Harbor Freight/ebay/Amazon.
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Thought I would share am image of my 2240 custom build Frankenstein gun. Stock ,forearm, hpa block ldc ,bottle band and longer bolt handle made in Philippines. Maximus 22 barrel. Haven shot it yet but have no doubt it will be accurate 😎