GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => China/Asian AirGun Gate => Topic started by: ezman604 on February 21, 2016, 10:09:38 PM
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I guess I have committed myself to this project. LOL
It's been WAY too long since I had the time to hit the bench so this project (and a few others I'm now working on) is pure therapy for me!!!
Not sure how many parts this will involve but I can see 3 parts at least. An initial evaluation and teardown, a tune process and reassembly/test. May also do a separate thread for the stock since I have no love for the Chinese finish you find on most lower end airguns.
Here we go...
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1196_zps0vcrfwmh.jpg)
On the operating table waiting.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1193_zpstmd4hbdo.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1194_zpsnroh2yab.jpg)
I almost immediately got one question answered. And that was are these Chinese made Daisy airguns anything like the last Turkish ones. Well, nope that are not alike.
First clue was the angled screws at the forward mount. Hatsan made Daisy/Winchester/Powerline aurguns used level, straight in screws. Next clue was when I separated the stock and action. The trigger group is totally different. Gonna be a learning experience for me on the trigger group. I enjoy a challenge. LOL
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1197_zpsqlpqykml.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1198_zpsbr0mqykz.jpg)
I guess they really didn't want any rust in these, hence the 5 pounds of grease in the chamber. LOL
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1200_zpsjadcazfb.jpg)
In this version they also used a grub screw on the breech bolt. Try to tighten the breech bolt just a tad to help remove the grub screw without stripping the head out. Been there done that.
:)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1203_zpskovyymkf.jpg)
And another interesting change to this model is the beartrap lever. Instead of riding on a bushing on the cocking lever, this one actually has a shoe that rides in the cocking slot just behind the cocking lever shoe.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1205_zpsfqqpizrd.jpg)
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/DSCF1206_zpsemtmaetv.jpg)
I shot it across the Chrony and tested the trigger pull for my baseline.
After logging the results, I see this one had a high of 955.78fps and a low of 938.73fps. For an average of 947.10fps for 15.74fpe. I was quite surprised the trigger pull had an average of around 5lb. Not bad for the big clunky apparatus. LOL
Will start "Part 2-The Tune" hopefully before the end of the week, time permitting. I have actually gotten a lot of this part done but want to finish it and photograph a bit more of the process.
Stay tuned and as always....
SAFE & Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
8)
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I look forward to any advice you can give to improve the trigger. Thank you for taking the time to post your adventure.
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Good stuff Dez, that trigger looks like a conglomeration. David
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Thanks! Will be eagerly watching the next couple parts.
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Here is how this trigger group functions.
Trigger blade is pinned and spring loaded with a first stage lever.
(http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/ezman604/Trigger%20group_zpsofratiu3.jpg)
As you pull the trigger, the blade and the first stage lever travel together until the lever hits the non-adjustable ramp (or stop).
The ramp stops the first stage lever and the spring between the trigger blade and first stage lever allows the trigger to continue through the cycle. At this point the trigger blade starts moving the secondary sear which in turn puts the main sear in motion. Interesting setup. I believe some spit and polish and a touch of secret trigger sauce will lighten and smooth the trigger operation up some. Not sure how much but we will see.
:)
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And time permitting, I'll take a closer look at the trigger blade itself and see if building a new aluminum or brass trigger would be of benefit.
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Just want to follow this. I have a 1100. Yes lots of grease.
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ezman604 -- Thanks for the pics. Disassembled my 1100S this week -- seal is in bad shape. Couldn't for the life of me remember how the trigger fit back on the assembly. The pics you have solved the mystery for me.
Still not sure where the metal came from in the face of the seal -- I guess they didn't clean the receiver out very well when they assembled it?
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I've been WAY too busy with happenings to even get back down to my shop to pick back up on this project. My seal wasn't quite that bad but I replaced it anyway. :)
Think it is a Maccari small APEX seal. It was a spare tossed in a drawer of Gene's leftover seals. :)
Anyway, I have done some piston cleanup and reseal. I did notice a lot of scrapings inside the piston from the spring. That might account for the metal shavings or possibly a not so smooth cocking slot. Metal against metal generated the shavings and could have come from any place on the piston or in the chamber.
Glad the trigger photo helped. I'm sure it will help me when I get around to the trigger tuning and reassembly. Hopefully this weekend. I'm anxious to see the difference in the feel of this airgun once reassembled.
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Nice to see you guys are making progress! Any tricks to getting this gun open? I tried putting pressure on the rear block, but the two pins don't seem to get any looser. I must be missing something...
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Remove the pin from the safety lever. Remove the lever. Tap the rear pin out. Set the receiver in a spring compressor and apply a little pressure to the rear guide. Tap the other pin to see if it will move. You may have to add or remove some pressure with the compressor to get tension off of the pin to finish driving it out.
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Looks good and I cant wait to you finish the tune and post some results.
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Remove the pin from the safety lever. Remove the lever. Tap the rear pin out. Set the receiver in a spring compressor and apply a little pressure to the rear guide. Tap the other pin to see if it will move. You may have to add or remove some pressure with the compressor to get tension off of the pin to finish driving it out.
Thanks Dave, I'll give that a try. The main pins must need more pressure than I've been giving them.
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Dave, Keith,
I'm embarrassed to ask this, but I think it will get me moving again at least - I have both pins out but no movement at all. I can't see how the trigger group comes out, and it won't budge at all. Would you mind helping me out and explaining how you got the trigger out? It's been a while since I've been on the bench, too...
Best,
Mike
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LOL
Surprised everything hasn't blown out the back yet.
Pull the pin for the safety lever and remove the lever.
Drive out the rear large pin and remove the end cap.
NOW put it in the spring compressor and apply some pressure to the rear guide. There again, you have to feel or see how much pressure to add or take away to free up the pin.
(I know you have the pin out already)
Apply pressure from the spring compressor.
The trigger group slides into a notch cut into the receiver. You will have to tap it toward the rear of the receiver to remove it.
Just be careful and make certain you have enough pressure on the rear guide to prevent everything from flying out the back of the receiver when the trigger group breaks free.
More photos coming this weekend....I hope.
Sorry for leaving so much out of the disassembly. I've really not had time to get back to the shop.
:)
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Glad to see you are getting some therapy time. Once the warm weather gets here I need to do 2 things get to the range for some quality time with some of my toys and a few hours with the hood up on the Mustang to install the new BBK 73mm throttle body
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Dave, Keith,
I'm embarrassed to ask this, but I think it will get me moving again at least - I have both pins out but no movement at all. I can't see how the trigger group comes out, and it won't budge at all. Would you mind helping me out and explaining how you got the trigger out? It's been a while since I've been on the bench, too...
Best,
Mike
There is an allen head screw under the trigger. You must remove the trigger to get to it.
Stumped me too. Pic below.
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Dooohhhh....see, I need more bench time. And finish a portion of a description before stopping.
LOL
My apologies, the trigger group can be tapped out and then you can get access to the hidden allen screw/bolt that helps hold the rear guide assembly in place. Make sure you have it in a spring compressor and tension applied when you remove the allen screw/bolt.
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Thanks Gents. You're awesome. I will report back on how things go and what condition I find inside.
Mike
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While waiting patiently for an update... :D
I wonder aloud if she will perform like the originals. Like my tuned Turkey 05 Powerline 1000s? Tuned a bunch of years ago now.
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/stonykill/0307160808-001_zpsot4c1nuo.jpg)
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LOL
Sorry for the delays, with the great weather this weekend I had a list of things to do outside. I walked past it sitting on my bench a few times and wanted to dive back in.
The powerplant looks to be almost identical so I anticipate the same power range as the turkeys. If so, these will be potent.
:)
I promise I'll get back on this project either this week or NLT this weekend. I'm anxious too!!!
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how did you guys get the plastic end off, the part that holds the safety lever? I've got the lever out and the large rear pin out but can't see a way to pry that plastic end off so I can put it in a compressor.
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Rear piece comes off with the spring.
Remove the pin holding the trigger. There is an allen head screw under the trigger that must be removed before removing the 2nd pin holding the spring.
See pic below.
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OK, thanks. I was doing it backwards, taking the pins out before the set screw until I had it in a compressor. I'll try it later. Thanks again
edit: got it. I'll watch for more progress from everyone here and hopefully figure out which new seals to order from that other thread.
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Found the correct seal: HAT95
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/10055863.htm (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/10055863.htm)
Installed today and it fits well.
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Are the butt pads glued and screwed onto these rifles? I took the screws out of mine to refinish the stock and the pad won't budge.
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Got my 1100 put back together today. The tune definitely improved some things, most noticeable is the trigger is much smoother now and not as hard to pull. I worked to polish it up and removed all the old/hard lube while I had it out.
Only got to shoot a few pellets today, but seems to be shooting consistently. I'll finish zeroing it tomorrow and post some pics of my groups.
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Was there a Part 2 posted? I've been searching and can't find anything here in the China Gate.
I have a used one of these heading my way and any more tuning info would be appreciated.
Thanks.
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LOL
Sorry...life got in the way. The Winchester is still disassembled in my shop. And I'm packing my shop in prep for my move. This is one I'm needing to get time to get back on the bench as soon as my new shop is up and functioning. Sorry for the delays but it will be a while yet.
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Was there a Part 2 posted? I've been searching and can't find anything here in the China Gate.
I have a used one of these heading my way and any more tuning info would be appreciated.
Thanks.
I have one and have done some tuning on it. Not too difficult to disassemble, but the trigger assembly can be a little difficult until you figure it out. I think I remember a YouTube on the 1100. I'll try to find it. PM me if you have any specific questions.
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Was there a Part 2 posted? I've been searching and can't find anything here in the China Gate.
I have a used one of these heading my way and any more tuning info would be appreciated.
Thanks.
I have one and have done some tuning on it. Not too difficult to disassemble, but the trigger assembly can be a little difficult until you figure it out. I think I remember a YouTube on the 1100. I'll try to find it. PM me if you have any specific questions.
Keith, how does this compare to a Hatsan 95? Thank you.
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I've never seen a Hatsan 95, so I can't say for sure, but the 1100s does use the HAT95 seal.
Search Winchester 1100s in the China gate and you will find some rebuild info.
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This has been a GREAT read ! My Thank You's to ALL Here ! I'll be Patently waiting for Part II. Regards - Tom
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I have one and have done some tuning on it. Not too difficult to disassemble, but the trigger assembly can be a little difficult until you figure it out. I think I remember a YouTube on the 1100. I'll try to find it. PM me if you have any specific questions.
Thanks. I'd like to see that video. I found a few videos on Youtube but nothing I found very informative.
It'll be a week or so before I get the rifle and get around to tearing it down. I'll post my findings.
ezman604 - You mean I'm not the only one with a pile of unfinished projects? Lol
BTW, do you guys want me to post my stuff here, or start a new thread?
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Let's press onward. If anyone has good info on the Winchester 1100....let's keep the thread alive. I'll get back to mine shortly...I hope.
And yep, not the only one with several irons in the fire I see.
:)
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[
Thanks. I'd like to see that video. I found a few videos on Youtube but nothing I found very informative.
I couldn't find the video yet, but here is a link to a Daisy Tear-Down Guide that will at least give you an idea of what you will see when you open it up.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/npywon3u86ndmb3/RSE%20-%20Daisy%20tear-down%20guide.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/npywon3u86ndmb3/RSE%20-%20Daisy%20tear-down%20guide.pdf?dl=0)
Hope it helps.
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Thanks.
So the Winchester 1100 is a Chinese copy of the Turkish Daisy 1000?
Edit: Comparing pics on this thread to those in the linked pdf shows a lot of differences.
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I forgot, what caliber and around what FPE level are these? Thank you.
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.177 and I think rated at 1100fps with light pellets.
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1100fps is an advertising ploy. You don't want to shoot light (PBA) rounds in a springer. Especially a higher power model. It will shake it to death, shorten the life of the main spring and wear the piston seal out in no time. Plus there will be very poor consistent accuracy over 10 yards. A more reasonable expectation is in the range of 900-950fps with standard weight (7-9gr) ammo. And yep, the contract went to China from Turkey. Daisy/Winchester/Powerline has gone around the world during their lifetime. They have been made in Germany, Spain, Turkey and now China. I guess there's still hope they could eventually come full circle and be made at home. We can hope so anyway.
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1100fps is an advertising ploy. You don't want to shoot light (PBA) rounds in a springer. Especially a higher power model. It will shake it to death, shorten the life of the main spring and wear the piston seal out in no time. Plus there will be very poor consistent accuracy over 10 yards. A more reasonable expectation is in the range of 900-950fps with standard weight (14-16gr) ammo. And yep, the contract went to China from Turkey. Daisy/Winchester/Powerline has gone around the world during their lifetime. They have been made in Germany, Spain, Turkey and now China. I guess there's still hope they could eventually come full circle and be made at home. We can hope so anyway.
For sure, I was just wondering if anyone remembered actual chrony notes. I would imagine it is around a 15-16 fpe gun in .177, maybe 18 in .22.
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I received mine this morning and shot three across the chrono:
The pellets were 7.9 gr CPHP and the velocities were 988, 986, and 998 fps.
Avg of 991 and 17.23 fpe
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LOL
Just realized I posted recommended ammo weight range of 14-16gr....
Would have a hard time stuffing these into a .177 breech.
Let's try again. 7-9gr rounds recommended.
Sorry for the brain fart and thinking .22cal.
:)
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Dang, those are pretty hot.
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I shot a few more before taking it apart:
7.4 gr Crosman pointed - 1020, 1016, 996
8.4 gr Crosman wadcutter - 976, 981, 986
9.7 gr Winchester dome - 860, 874, 863
10.65 H&N dome - 851, 836,849
I can't get over how easy it is to cock given the velocity it's putting out. This is a used gun and it's not dieseling.
Edited to add H&N pellets.
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Before I tore it down I shot a few groups.
Conditions:
10 yards,
5-shot groups,
basement,
4x Crosman cheapo package scope,
rifle rested at balance point on a paint roller rest and held lightly at buttstock.
First group was upper left - 7.9 gr CPHP
Second group was upper right - 9.7 gr Win Domes
Third group was middle left - 8.4 gr Crosman wadcutters.
Fourth group was lower right - 10.65 H&N Barracuda
Looks like it prefers the heavier pellets.
(http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp330/305178/Mobile%20Uploads/20170211_195659-1_zpsuujrheth.jpg) (http://s424.photobucket.com/user/305178/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170211_195659-1_zpsuujrheth.jpg.html)
I tore it down completely and it's full of dark brown grease. All the screws had a generous application of threadlocker too.
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It's a good shooter with the right ammo.
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I finished tweaking my rifle today.
For the trigger I polished all contact points on the trigger, three sear pieces, and piston. I also made a new trigger return spring out of lighter wire. That lightened the pull considerably.
To get rid of the mile of creep I made an adjustment screw to adjust one of the sears. It looks rough, but I made it on my drill press with a dremel and file. To adjust, remove the one screw holding the stock to the action and use a small screwdriver to increase or decrease sear engagement. It look a few adjustments, but I now have a light and crisp trigger. I'm going to shoot it more to make sure it's what I want and then hold it in place with loctite so that it doesn't move. BTW, I slammed the rifle into the ground several times after each adjustment to make sure I didn't get a misfire.
So now I have have a safe 2.75 pound trigger with just a hint of creep.
Remember, you are responsible for your own safety. If you try this adjustment screw be sure to test it so you know it's safe.
Adjustment screw:
(http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp330/305178/Mobile%20Uploads/20170212_205859-1_zpszhqp1aru.jpg) (http://s424.photobucket.com/user/305178/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170212_205859-1_zpszhqp1aru.jpg.html)
Screw it in to the bottom of the stock attachment lug:
(http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp330/305178/Mobile%20Uploads/20170212_210013-1_zps7ivjhgx3.jpg) (http://s424.photobucket.com/user/305178/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170212_210013-1_zps7ivjhgx3.jpg.html)
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Screw looks good, good idea.
Don't worry, in the course of history many guns have been put back in action by the Portuguese lathe.
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More to add to the database: I tried an ARH seal for a Hatsan 95/ Turkish Webley Tomahawk and it was a very loose fit on the piston. You might want to do some measurements before ordering a seal.
I also emailed Daisy about buying a replacement piston seal and they told me the only parts they sell for this rifle are the sights and breech seal.
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Looking for a Part 2! Putting it back together is baffling ! Can't get it to cock. Looking everywhere for information.
Yeah,it's an old thread......
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I think part 1 wore DEz out.
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Yeah, that too. LOL
Actually, I had to shut the shop down and pack everything away for a move in Mar 2017. I still have not had time to unpack everything. That Winchester project is somewhere buried in the shop boxes. My apologies. I hope to dig it out and resume the tinkering but have no clue when.
Sorry ya'll.
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Yeah if any one digs up an unfinished thread bring it to the OP's attention. I am sure there are some of my post with no happy endings written ;)
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Yeah if any one digs up an unfinished thread bring it to the OP's attention. I am sure there are some of my post with no happy endings written ;)
I wasn't trying to pick on Dave,(I had PM'd him about this thread) but I was hoping someone had been lurking out there that knew all about this airgun and could offer some more insight..
What a headache..... :o
Thanks to everyone that's contributed !
kids don't try this at home...
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I was not trying to make fun of any one but perhaps myself,. I just got done doing some searches on a few guns, for repair tips and many possibly helpful threads were not complete, mostly if the fix even worked, I assume they are happily shooting again ???
Wish I had my 1100 here I would of tore it apart to help you out ;)
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Thanks!
I had told my wife about lefteyeshot's suggestion in the other thread about, for $59, throwing it in the parts bin and buying another.
Happily,we are going back to wallyworld next week,and she said "if you can find another..." She's the greatest!
But in the meantime, I'm STILL going to try!
Maybe the new will give me something to compare too...? But I won't take it apart!