Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
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Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
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Topic: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing? (Read 581 times))
T-Man
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Real Name: Tom
Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
on:
May 11, 2021, 08:28:15 PM »
I'm considering either a gas-piston air rifle for quiet backyard pest control and target shooting. I would like to me able to further quieten it by adding an LDC/moderator, etc.. I would prefer to have a repeater and also keep my rifle budget under $500
Rifles like the Gamo's don't appear to have a barrel that have threaded muzzles to accommodate an LDC. Same with the Crosman MAG-Fire.
Any suggestions or am I S.O.L. regarding a gas-piston rifle?
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #1 on:
May 11, 2021, 08:50:30 PM »
You want quiet for under $500 here is the best starting point IMO.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/umarex-origin-pcp-air-rifle-with-hand-pump?m=5255
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null
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #2 on:
May 11, 2021, 09:34:11 PM »
^^ Good deal.
Or Get a Chinese handpump and a Fortitude. Benjamins comes with a 5 year warranty on PCPs.
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El Greco
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #3 on:
May 11, 2021, 11:18:15 PM »
You can always send it to a tuner to have the barell chopped and threaded
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Doug Wall
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #4 on:
May 12, 2021, 08:05:35 AM »
You have to remember that for springer/gas piston guns, a huge portion of the noise comes from the action, and that can't be silenced by anything stuck on the end of the barrel. The more power, the more action noise. By looking for a repeater, you are also really limiting your options.
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Hilton, NY
RedFeather
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #5 on:
May 12, 2021, 11:28:57 AM »
It has been reported that springers do not benefit from a suppressor nearly as much as do compressed gas guns. Usually, the lowest acceptable powered gun is your best bet. Shooting light pellets out of heavy magnums and cracking the sound barrier gets noisey, not mention accuracy suffers. I'd do some Googling to see what's been done.
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Ribbonstone
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #6 on:
May 12, 2021, 01:21:06 PM »
The two Springers that came with shrouds did get tested with the shroud removed….defiantly louder that way, so springer shrouds/LDC’s do something useful. LDC/Shrouded PCP of the same ENERGY is considerably quieter.
Just used a cheap sound meter 2 yards down range and 2 yard to the side...along with my ears.
So were quieter than different springers making the same energy.
Shrouded rifles were louder without the shrouds than with them.
EITHER (no shroud or shrouded) were louder at the same energy level than PCP’s.
We blame extra noise if from all that movement inside the air tube..considering there isn’t any “buzz” with a gas-piston… there is something else at work. We do have it pressed right up to our face, so there is some noise conduction going on….but that’s equally true of PCP’s...and the down range meter would have ignored that.
Thinking about it...know the inside diameter of the tube and the stroke length of the piston, can figure out just how many CC’s of air a springer squirts out (eventually). At the same energy (lets say 16 foot pounds in .22 for either a PCP or a springer), it turns out to be a larger volume of low pressure air (springer) vs a small volume of higher pressure air (PCP).
Could be a frequency/duration kind of thing...really don’t have the good sound equipment to test that.
Not so sure about repeaters. Not against the concept, not thrilled about the execution (a reasonable idea, just not worked out well yet).
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Louisiana
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #7 on:
May 12, 2021, 03:49:56 PM »
I think springers are noisy for three reasons that occur concurrently:
3. The expansion of the air to drive the pellet
2. The compression of the air
1. The mechanism that compresses the air.
Noise generation with shooting a PCP has the above three aspects separated in time and space:
(3) is shared. Both PCPs and springer generate noise when the air expands abruptly to drive the pellet.
The compression aspect (2) also makes noise for PCPs, but not at the same time or place as the shot.
If you doubt that, any "high speed" compressor is noisy. Some PCP compressor noise (1) is due to the mechanism.
To separate out (1) from (2), compare a free running compressor against one running at 3000 PSI. It gets louder the harder it has to work.
An HW 95 has a swept volume of 45 CC or 1.7 cubic inches of ambient air. In .22 caliber the stock HW 95 yield 16 to 17 FPE. Bob Sterne has some rule of thumb for PCP FPE based on volume of ambient air. Yes, it depends on efficiency, but what I recall is that at an efficiency of "1", each FPE requires one cubic inch of ambient air - as in 16.4 CC. It is possible that I have the latter numbers wrong, but what is for sure is that springers are more efficient than PCPs, because springers' heat of compression is retained in the air to drive the pellet, while with PCPs, that heat is lost in the compressor or pump.
So, the volume of air leaving the muzzle of a springer is much less than that of a PCP of equivalent power, using a barrel of similar length. It is just that the firing even of a springer is so abrupt that you are hearing what amounts to compressor noise too.
Due to piston bounce, springer muzzle pressure can be lower than that of the equivalent PCP, despite the average pressure being similar (or else the pellet velocity could not be similar).
If I can offer an analogy, a springer's noise is like kicking a small drum into the air and then having it drop onto the floor. This while a PCP is like lifting the drum gently to the same height as with the springer, and dropping it onto the floor.
My statement suggests that springers are 6 times more
air efficient
than PCP, based on ambient air conditions. The air leaving a springer muzzle is still hot, so its effective volume and pressure are still above ambient conditions. This by way of saying that springer muzzle devices don't have to work as hard as those on PCP, at the same caliber, barrel length and power level. Not by a factor of 6X, but probably by a factor of 3X, for something such as the HW95 VS a Benjamin Discovery tuned to the same power. Even then, the sound of compressing the air (1) and (2) remain with the springer. No LDC can reduce them.
I will PM Bob to see if he can refine the above comparison, although I believe it is correct in principle.
«
Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 04:21:50 PM by subscriber
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #8 on:
May 12, 2021, 03:52:10 PM »
I sent Bob a PM, but notice that he has not been on the forum today. That is pretty unusual and might mean he has more important things to do than correct my mistakes on the forum.
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rsterne
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #9 on:
May 12, 2021, 04:18:28 PM »
Just got your PM when we returned from our bi-weekly grocery shop!.... Your comments are basically correct, although PCPs can vary in efficiency from about 0.4 to over 2.0 FPE/CI, so for similar power levels a Springer will not be 6 times as efficient, more like about 3 times as you state.... You are absolutely correct that a Springer is more efficient than a PCP because the heat of compression is used to boost the pressure, whereas not only is it lost before firing a PCP, but in fact the air cools as it expands, lowering the average pressure during the shot even further....
The more air expelled from the muzzle, the louder the report, which is why big bore PCPs are noisy, as are those tuned for maximum power.... Tune them down to Springer levels (caliber for caliber), and they can be very quiet.... You can never get rid of all the mechanical noise in a Springer, so at equal FPE, they will be louder than a PCP....
Bob
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #10 on:
May 12, 2021, 04:20:56 PM »
Thanks Bob
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ER00z
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #11 on:
May 12, 2021, 09:52:31 PM »
The Crosman/Benjamin NP2 guns are threaded 1/2" UNF, I believe. If you can find a Crosman Summit they have a nut holding the front sight on. Take that off and good to go. The rest of the NP2 guns have a SBD (factory shroud) attached already.
I have used slip-ons for a Crosman Nitro Venom, Benjamin Prowler, Benjamin Summit Ranger w/chopped barrel, and while not a gas piston, a Ruger Blackhawk springer that's been lubed up. I think a 15mm unit was used for these. You can also find thread adapters around, gives more options.
They do make a difference in report. The mechanical noise will be there but doesn't carry as far as the "snap" at the muzzle. The shorter the barrel, the more appreciated a can is.
Hope this helps, take it easy.
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Struckat
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #12 on:
May 12, 2021, 10:35:39 PM »
LDC on a springer can be a real benefit. To say they do not make a difference is just plain wrong.
Yes there is internal nois that the shooter can hear, but that noise is not the issue. The LDC on my HW95 is very necessary in my back yard. It takes the muzzle report down to something that is of no concern.
It makes the muzzle report much less noticeable, but more importantly, less recognizable. Impact on the target is much louder.
Shooting at 10m in my basement, the difference is drastic.
Get something with a traditional steel barrel and you will find plenty of options. Threaded is even better.
Even my HW30 is quieter.
«
Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 10:37:52 PM by Struckat
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #13 on:
May 12, 2021, 11:12:32 PM »
Quote from: Struckat on May 12, 2021, 10:35:39 PM
To say they do not make a difference is just plain wrong.
Yes. Blanket statements are not useful. What is useful is specifics; and setting expectations. Not just of dB, but of the nature of the sound.
Si Pitaway shoots HW99s (HW50) in .22 and .25 that have shortened barrels and large LDCs. These are tuned to 10.5 FPE and don't have any "snap" to them at all. You sample various hunting and field target videos of him shooting them, to very good effect on youtube, here:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Imp+Snipe+Pitaway
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Re: Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?
«
Reply #14 on:
May 13, 2021, 09:11:24 AM »
I would add that springers with properly fitting (not loose) spring guides produce way less spring vibration noise and piston clatter. Such springers will benefit the most from an LDC. Springers with a lot of spring buzz will benefit the least.
This is my way of saying that just because one springer does or does not benefit from an LDC does not predict the value of an LDC for the population of springers out there.
If it is obvious that anyone who wants a quiet springer would have it tuned (or do that themselves), it should still be mentioned as a conditional statement when talking about the value of LDCs on springers.
At similar power, my harshest and smoothest springers out of the box are my R9 and an HW95. The noise and vibration here is all about spring buzz or the lack of it. Luck of the draw I suppose, but the smooth shooting one would probably benefit from an LDC, while the buzzy one not so much.
Funnily enough, the noisy one yields 14 FPE, while the smooth on 17 FPE. I am sure a large part of the reason for the power difference is the caliber: .177 VS .22. My point being, the quiet one has not been detuned to make it quiet. Certainly, the .22 HW95 has significant bark from the muzzle. Subjectively its muzzle blast is twice as loud as my .22 HW50, making 12 FPE.
It is only my .177 R7 that I would call backyard friendly. Its noise is mild mechanically and at the muzzle. I am sure that the fact it produces only just over 7 FPE out of the box has a lot to do with that. My .22 HW95 is as smooth as the R7; just much much louder.
Now, a gas spring gun obviously won't have spring buzz; so perhaps a better starting point.
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Any gas piston guns <$500 suitable for silencing?