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Author Topic: .25 cal regulator  (Read 998 times))

Offline Treb37

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.25 cal regulator
« on: January 11, 2021, 01:52:56 PM »
I wanted to up the pressure output and increase the bottle size on my .25 gauntlet so I ordered shims and pressure tester from Hajimoto. I removed the reg from the stock bottle and put it on a 22ci bottle from Ebay. The shim kit came with enough shims to also up the output of my HPA converted Ninja QB78 to 1400psi and that worked perfectly. When I tried shimming the Gauntlet reg I get all kinds of weird pressures none above 1950 and most often under 1K. Has anyone else had this non-Ninja regulator apart? I'm pretty sure I didn't lose any parts or install anything wrong but since it just won't work since I've had it apart I'm beginning to wonder.
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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2021, 09:11:23 PM »
So today I tried installing the belleville washer stack from the Gauntlet reg into the Ninja SHP reg. That produced something in excess of 2400psi in that regulator housing. I didn't want to pump it up any higher for fear of blowing the 3K rupture disc. I tried it a couple times with and without shims and got the same result. Here is what the inside of the Gauntlet reg looks like. I used the washer stack exactly how it's arranged on the piston in the pic.
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Offline Hajimoto

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2021, 12:58:05 PM »
I wanted to up the pressure output and increase the bottle size on my .25 gauntlet so I ordered shims and pressure tester from Hajimoto. I removed the reg from the stock bottle and put it on a 22ci bottle from Ebay. The shim kit came with enough shims to also up the output of my HPA converted Ninja QB78 to 1400psi and that worked perfectly. When I tried shimming the Gauntlet reg I get all kinds of weird pressures none above 1950 and most often under 1K. Has anyone else had this non-Ninja regulator apart? I'm pretty sure I didn't lose any parts or install anything wrong but since it just won't work since I've had it apart I'm beginning to wonder.


If you have the cheaper Chinese/Taiwan made regulator on your Gauntlet you need to take some extra steps to have adjustment work successfully. The Belleville washer stack configuration will always need to stay the same obviously but the issue is that the washers have very sharp edges and that produces stiction.
I always remove all the washer and using a piece of 3000GRIT sandpaper and silicone oil, I polish the washer by laying the sandpaper on a hard flat surface, then place the washer down on the paper hump side up and with light finger pressure do about 10 circles to polish any sharp edges off.


After polish them, all, use a clean lint-free cloth and wipe off all dust, dirt, or filings and apply a thin coat of silicone oil on your fingers to apply to the washers.
Rebuild the stack as it was initially and shim accordingly.


When filling the reg, fill to 500 then degas then fill to 1000 and degas, then final fill as the washers should have settled at this stage and you will have a more accurate or stable result.
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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2021, 08:11:36 PM »
Thanks Haji, would you have any ideas on why the same Belleville washer stack in the Ninja regulator produced at least 2400psi? I just tried what you suggested polishing them on a piece of glass then clean and lightly lube. Filled to 500 and degassed, all worked well. Filled to 1000 and it was working so I went to 1500 and the reg only got to 1200. Degassed and tried again filled to 2K and got 900 psi. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for how this thing works. I have a Ninja 4500 regulator coming and I hope I can adjust the shim stack in that one and make it work.
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Offline Hajimoto

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2021, 02:39:44 AM »
Thanks Haji, would you have any ideas on why the same Belleville washer stack in the Ninja regulator produced at least 2400psi? I just tried what you suggested polishing them on a piece of glass then clean and lightly lube. Filled to 500 and degassed, all worked well. Filled to 1000 and it was working so I went to 1500 and the reg only got to 1200. Degassed and tried again filled to 2K and got 900 psi. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for how this thing works. I have a Ninja 4500 regulator coming and I hope I can adjust the shim stack in that one and make it work.


 You are welcome. I do have a good idea of why the Chinese stack is hitting 2400 PSI in a Ninja body. I am willing to bet that the piston's upper cap rise thickness is greater on the Chinese piston. The Belleville stack arrangement you show on the Chinese piston ))(())(())(( will produce 1500 PSI on a Ninja piston in a Ninja body using Ninja Belleville washer so I would remove the first Belleville washer )(())(())(( and try the stack again in the Ninja body.


As for the 500 and 1200 fills hitting the mark but the 2k not, there is still some stiction happening. By any chance when the Belleville washers were removed did you inspect the surface of the piston to be sure they were not biting into the aluminum wall?


So you know, I have had over 50 Chinese regulators off of Gauntlets present what you are describing and it has been my experience that complete disassembly, polishing, and silicone oil coating, resolved the issues for me.
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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2021, 01:30:03 PM »
Well I guess I'm glad to know I'm not the only one having this issue. I'll keep trying and see what I can get done with what I have. I keep running my 90ci Benjamin bottle out without ever shooting a single round. Running to the next town over to get it filled at Scheels is getting old....I think I need a compressor. 8)

I overhauled my hand pump and I've been pumping like mad with that but only up to about 2K. I'm still recovering from a broken elbow from a bicycle wreck on Dec 5.

I see you are sold out of regulators, Should I just see if I can get some better quality Belleville washers and experiment with them and if so where should I get them?
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Offline Motorhead

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2021, 01:44:36 PM »
Guys ... The bevel stack just creates a given SPRING RATE.  Pending how close or far away the actual seat is from end of spool dictates HOW FAR the given bevel springs must compress to get the seat to seal up.   Closer this gap LOWER will be the set point ... Further away HIGHER will be the set point.

Thus the WHY FOR a given spool and bevels in differing bodies have a different set point.
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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2021, 03:20:20 PM »
Yep...I understand the concept it just hadn't occurred to me that they would be different lengths. I looked at Haji's diagram and thought the shim stack was the same as mine but I see now that the ninja reg has one less washer.
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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2021, 06:27:57 PM »
Here's what I keep getting. On the initial fill it looks promising but then stops at around 1K output no matter how much pressure I add to the bottle. Then Degas and try again and it will only come up to 750-800psi. Frustrating as *(&^ I want to smash the reg with a sledge hammer.

In another unrelated note the bottle outlet valve is also a POS. It's metal on metal with no seal. I had to cut a disc of electrical tape and slide it onto the stopper to get it to quit leaking.

What's really strange is the regulator appeared to perform well before I took it apart. I was getting 900fps+ with JSB 25.39's so I know the pressure must have been at least 1900. Apparently it did not like being taken apart....
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Offline Motorhead

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2021, 08:53:05 PM »
Look at the seat on the end of spool. If it is heavily dented / damaged there is a big part of the problem.
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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2021, 10:53:35 PM »
Look at the seat on the end of spool. If it is heavily dented / damaged there is a big part of the problem.

The seat end for the bottle is a ball pressed into the spool and it does not appear damaged at all as in the pic above. I wonder if it's possible that I unsprung the belleville washers running them up to just under 2500psi on the Ninja spool?
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Offline Motorhead

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2021, 11:46:47 PM »
DOUBTFUL ... Regulators and there correct function while simple in basic operation can be screwed up with simple oversight on the basics of what required getting from HP to controlled LP.

** See NO picture of the Spool ends seat ???
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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2021, 01:04:01 AM »
DOUBTFUL ... Regulators and there correct function while simple in basic operation can be screwed up with simple oversight on the basics of what required getting from HP to controlled LP.

** See NO picture of the Spool ends seat ???

I guess it's not very clear in the first pic I put up but you can see there is no visible damage to the ball in this close up. I've replaced O-rings and lubed the washers anywhere from very lightly to more than I would consider enough with the same results on every test. I polished the washers cleaned with brake cleaner and a lens cloth then lubed and reinstalled. It's installed correctly and it's not working for me. I am down to using the hand pump only now so is there any chance I need to shock the reg with a faster pressure increase to get it to act right?
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Offline Hajimoto

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2021, 02:54:13 AM »
Guys ... The bevel stack just creates a given SPRING RATE.  Pending how close or far away the actual seat is from end of spool dictates HOW FAR the given bevel springs must compress to get the seat to seal up.   Closer this gap LOWER will be the set point ... Further away HIGHER will be the set point.

Thus the WHY FOR a given spool and bevels in differing bodies have a different set point.
So to be clear, you are saying that if a bonnet applies more force on the piston towards the seat, it has no effect on the pressure output?

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Offline Hajimoto

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2021, 03:09:15 AM »
Well I guess I'm glad to know I'm not the only one having this issue. I'll keep trying and see what I can get done with what I have. I keep running my 90ci Benjamin bottle out without ever shooting a single round. Running to the next town over to get it filled at Scheels is getting old....I think I need a compressor. 8)

I overhauled my hand pump and I've been pumping like mad with that but only up to about 2K. I'm still recovering from a broken elbow from a bicycle wreck on Dec 5.

I see you are sold out of regulators, Should I just see if I can get some better quality Belleville washers and experiment with them and if so where should I get them?
Yeah I am out of regular Ninja regulators and will only be stocking the Pro V2 style from now on. Less SKU's and it's a better reg to boot. Those (Pro V2) I have in stock. Another worthwhile addition to your tools is a test adapter for your regulators so you only wasting a few CC's of air rather than filling your PCP's tank every time.





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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2021, 05:50:59 AM »
Thanks again Haji, I don't suppose you have one of those testers? I have a Pro V2 4500 psi reg on the way and wanted to confirm that I should be able to change shims and rupture discs to make it a 3K reg?
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Offline Hajimoto

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2021, 10:20:28 AM »
Thanks again Haji, I don't suppose you have one of those testers? I have a Pro V2 4500 psi reg on the way and wanted to confirm that I should be able to change shims and rupture discs to make it a 3K reg?
You can but the manufacturer can only print on the pressure device what it was built for at the time. Meaning you the consumer can ALWAYS use the product less than what the labeling says by using a 5K burst disc rather than a 7.5K that will ship with it. Obviously the 4500PSI and the 7.5K burst disc data will be on the side and that is a non-issue, its when folks go the other way and take a labeled 3K product and push it to 4.5K when issues can happen.


Sorry, I never answered your question about the test adapter, No I do not, I made mine but the one shown can be snagged from any Paintball distributer pretty much.

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Offline JohnnyPDX

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2021, 10:35:53 AM »
This is interesting even though I don't have that gun or issue.

One thing for SURE is that I would definitely buy from Hajimoto based on his in-depth and thoughtful response.


Offline Motorhead

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2021, 12:42:04 PM »
Guys ... The bevel stack just creates a given SPRING RATE.  Pending how close or far away the actual seat is from end of spool dictates HOW FAR the given bevel springs must compress to get the seat to seal up.   Closer this gap LOWER will be the set point ... Further away HIGHER will be the set point.

Thus the WHY FOR a given spool and bevels in differing bodies have a different set point.
So to be clear, you are saying that if a bonnet applies more force on the piston towards the seat, it has no effect on the pressure output?



Haj,
The issue of spring preload is another way of altering set point.
Some regulators adjust there set point via Bevel spring preload changes, while some have bevels under a fixed preload and alter seat height.
BOTH have an effect of set point. I  did not really go in-depth on the my statement you quoted.

Said ... if each body has a differing spacing and preload on the bevel stack, that too ... along with seat gap/height effects the set point.

Hope this clears up any misunderstanding for the basic conversation we're having here  ;)
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Offline Treb37

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Re: .25 cal regulator
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2021, 05:04:45 PM »
Well I went and pulled a "Hajimoto" and did some experimenting. My problem is that the output side or LP side of the reg pressure is too low. The HP air flows from the bottle through the center of the piston to the output side pushing it back onto the seat on the bottle. This force must be opposed by the spring pressure of the Belleville washers right? This means there is not enough spring pressure to prevent the valve from closing. That's why adding shims to the bottle side of the piston adds to the distance it must travel and the spring pressure it must overcome to reach the seat.

Since I kept getting 750 to 800psi I decided to try some home made shims to see if I could get the pressure up a little. I cut 3 shims from a soda can and stuck them in there with the 1-#3 and 2-#2 shims I had from the Hajimoto shim kit for a total of .175" worth of shims. That produced 1500psi on the initial fill and it settled in to a repeatable 1200psi after a degassing and refilling the bottle to 2K. Also noteworthy I cleaned all the BV washers with brake cleaner and zero lube before installing. I also notice that when installing the bonnet there was some resistance from the BV stack for the last 1/8 of a turn basically preloading the springs.

The piston valve is able to close too easily showing me that the washers are probably not sticking but just not providing enough resistance. Also that they may in fact be desprung or maybe I polished too much off the edges to actually reduce the overall thickness too much. My Ninja reg should be here tomorrow and I can't get here fast enough because as far as I'm concerned....these Taiwanese BV washers are junk.
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