GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: cmhobbs on January 18, 2019, 07:54:33 PM
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Hope I've got the right gate here... if not, kindly scoot me over to the right place. ;D
I'm thinking about picking up an entry level 10m match pistol at some point. I don't have any competitions around me as far as I know. I'm just looking to learn more about, and practice, 10m target shooting. It seems like an interesting facet of the hobby and a nice graduation from my rampant plinking.
I was interested in the FAS 6004 but I've seen some bad reviews for it, stating it has pressure issues? I also considered the Air Venturi V10 but I don't like that it's got plastic parts. I'd prefer to avoid PCP and I'd like to have some flexibility with adjustments and modifications so I could fit the pistol to my preferences. I'm looking to spend around $500.
Does anyone have recommendations for such a thing?
Thanks!
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I had a very similar thread a while back.
I am on my cell phone now but will put a link to it here for you when I am home.
Lot of good input there. ;)
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I had a very similar thread a while back.
I am on my cell phone now but will put a link to it here for you when I am home.
Lot of good input there. ;)
I *knew* I should've clicked through some more pages before posting! I tried the search feature but I guess I didn't search for the right stuff.
Be safe getting home!
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As HD said, there is an older thread with the same question.
If you are willing to budget $500, sounds like you are semi-serious.
Are you interested in serious competition or just to shoot 10m yourself ?
There is nothing wrong with using plastic on an AP, if it is used in the right places.
An all metal AP could result in a heavy AP and one that is very font-heavy balanced like the IZH46M.
All of these are SSP:
- Daisy 747 (More for casual 10m shooting than competition. Grip does not have a palm shelf, which I consider mandatory in a match pistol. If your hand sweats, the plastic grip will slip in your hand-fix is a small square of "non-skid" on the backstrap. Separate bolt allows for easy dry fire. Daisy seems to have discontinued the 747.)
- IZH-46 / 46M (Rather front heavy for many. Shoots WELL. Large grip, expect to carve the grip to fit your hand.)
- Pardini K58 (A rather in demand SSP pistol, so when one comes on the market, it gets grabbed quickly.)
- FWB-100
Another option is a used spring match AP, like the FWB-65.
Are you open to co2? You can get older co2 match pistols close to/around your budget.
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Here it is Chris...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139012. (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139012.)
There was also this one...
PS, the AV10 used to be called the Gamo Compact before Air Venture got a hold of the sole distributorship.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=106548 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=106548)
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Here it is Chris...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139012. (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139012.)
There was also this one...
PS, the AV10 used to be called the Gamo Compact before Air Venture got a hold of the sole distributorship.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=106548 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=106548)
I suspected the AV10 was a Gamo rebrand. It looked sneakily familiar!
Thanks for the link to those threads, it really helped me a lot. I think I've got some good direction here.
If you are willing to budget $500, sounds like you are semi-serious.
Are you interested in serious competition or just to shoot 10m yourself ?
There is nothing wrong with using plastic on an AP, if it is used in the right places.
An all metal AP could result in a heavy AP and one that is very font-heavy balanced like the IZH46M.
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Are you open to co2? You can get older co2 match pistols close to/around your budget.
Regarding competition: I'd love to try but I don't know that there's anything around me for that and I couldn't get proper training in my area. There's some casual shoots nearby. I'd mostly just be trying to learn proper 10m competition shooting by myself in my back yard. This is why I'd like a "real" match pistol but why I'm not going crazy on a modern PCP option. If I get good with whatever I buy, then I'll look into PCP and maybe drop a pile of cash on one that can be heavily customized.
I understand "plastic in the right places" but I just fear that plastic isn't durable enough. I've had a couple of airguns with plastic on them and it always worried me.
At the moment, I think I've settled on the izzy. The weight seems like it would be a benefit to me rather than a problem and they seem easy enough to repair, maintain, and modify. I might have a lead on one when I decide to pull that trigger (ha! ;D).
I don't know if I'm opposed to CO2 or not. The only CO2 guns I've had have been old BB guns and I'm trying to stay away from toys in my shooting (seems like the airgun market is flooded with toys). Some casual sifting through the forum here seems to give the impression that CO2 is generally frowned upon? Why is that? Do people just not like buying up small use cartridges? Is CO2 decent for a "real" match pistol? I'd consider it if it were a valid option.
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Don't know your year 'round weather in Arkansas, but below 60 degrees CO2 isn't a good power supply. Here in Indiana my CO2's are used indoors from October until about April. But for a match shooting pistol, that's perfect for me.
I like oddities, if I could find one of the old Alpha Proj CO2 pistols, for a low enough price, I'd be on it.
Alpha Proj co2 pistol.
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/alfa.jpg)
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Here it is Chris...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139012. (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139012.)
There was also this one...
PS, the AV10 used to be called the Gamo Compact before Air Venture got a hold of the sole distributorship.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=106548 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=106548)
I suspected the AV10 was a Gamo rebrand. It looked sneakily familiar!
Thanks for the link to those threads, it really helped me a lot. I think I've got some good direction here.
If you are willing to budget $500, sounds like you are semi-serious.
Are you interested in serious competition or just to shoot 10m yourself ?
There is nothing wrong with using plastic on an AP, if it is used in the right places.
An all metal AP could result in a heavy AP and one that is very font-heavy balanced like the IZH46M.
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Are you open to co2? You can get older co2 match pistols close to/around your budget.
Regarding competition: I'd love to try but I don't know that there's anything around me for that and I couldn't get proper training in my area. There's some casual shoots nearby. I'd mostly just be trying to learn proper 10m competition shooting by myself in my back yard. This is why I'd like a "real" match pistol but why I'm not going crazy on a modern PCP option. If I get good with whatever I buy, then I'll look into PCP and maybe drop a pile of cash on one that can be heavily customized.
I understand "plastic in the right places" but I just fear that plastic isn't durable enough. I've had a couple of airguns with plastic on them and it always worried me.
At the moment, I think I've settled on the izzy. The weight seems like it would be a benefit to me rather than a problem and they seem easy enough to repair, maintain, and modify. I might have a lead on one when I decide to pull that trigger (ha! ;D).
I don't know if I'm opposed to CO2 or not. The only CO2 guns I've had have been old BB guns and I'm trying to stay away from toys in my shooting (seems like the airgun market is flooded with toys). Some casual sifting through the forum here seems to give the impression that CO2 is generally frowned upon? Why is that? Do people just not like buying up small use cartridges? Is CO2 decent for a "real" match pistol? I'd consider it if it were a valid option.
There are a couple AP books out there now, so you are better of than I was in the past with no AP books.
Go to the Pilkington site and the forum TargetTalk.org, where some of the 10m guys hang out.
There are postal matches, where you either mail in your targets, or just post your scores.
Actually, you don't customize the match APs much if at all.
The main thing that is done is to properly FIT the grip to your hand.
Good luck with the IZY. Its a good AP.
I shoot a co2 match pistol, a Walther CPM-1. It was a LOT cheaper than a CA/PCP pistol, and can match them in accuracy.
I switched to co2 from SSP (the K58), because my tendonitis made it sometimes difficult to work the cocking lever.
Now that there are several generations of CA APs out, the older CA APs have dropped in price.
As far as I understand, co2 is only a problem in temp extremes.
- If too cold, the velocity will drop. But that has not been a problem for me, down to mid/high 40sF.
- If too hot, the expanding co2 can cause valve lock-up, and the AP won't fire. I do not know at what temp the lock-up happens, and the temp may vary by gun. Bleeding some of the co2 out of the cylinder seems to solve the problem, for some.
CA is more stable at the temp extremes.
I've shot my co2 AP down into the mid/high 40sF (had to stop cuz my fingers got too cold to control the trigger), and up to about 105F, without a problem.
Match co2 APs do not use co2 cartridges (with only a couple exceptions), you will need a bulk co2 tank (2-1/2 or 5 pounds is more than enough. 2-1/2 is easy to invert), and have to go to a fire extinguisher or industrial gas shop to refill. This is no different than getting a SCUBA tank refilled for CA/PCP.
Because of age, ideally, I would buy a co2 AP from someone that will check out the AP, and service what they sell, like Pilkingtons (Pilkguns.com). I got both of my (used) match APs from them.
I looked at the Alpha Project co2 pistol, and scratched it off my list. That was so long ago that I don't remember exactly why, but I think it was the grip or the co2 storage. And why get a tier-2 AP when you can get a used tier-1 AP, for about the same price.
BTW, for CA/PCP, in fully compliant matches, they will do an equipment check. And one of the checks is/could be the age of the air cylinder. There is a 10 year limit placed on the cylinders. And replacement cylinders are not cheap.
I don't know if/how they do that for a co2 gun. co2 operates at a much lower pressure than CA.
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There's a Morini 162E in our member classified $400 shipped. They're $1800 new.
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Don't know your year 'round weather in Arkansas, but below 60 degrees CO2 isn't a good power supply. Here in Indiana my CO2's are used indoors from October until about April. But for a match shooting pistol, that's perfect for me.
I like oddities, if I could find one of the old Alpha Proj CO2 pistols, for a low enough price, I'd be on it.
Alpha Proj co2 pistol.
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/alfa.jpg)
That's a pretty gun!
It usually touches the low tens/teens in the winter here and skirts 100F or so in the summer. That's something to consider.
There are a couple AP books out there now, so you are better of than I was in the past with no AP books.
Go to the Pilkington site and the forum TargetTalk.org, where some of the 10m guys hang out.
There are postal matches, where you either mail in your targets, or just post your scores.
Actually, you don't customize the match APs much if at all.
The main thing that is done is to properly FIT the grip to your hand.
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CO2, bottles, etc.
Such great info in this post, thanks! I think I'll stay away from CO2 unless they take carts after your description. One of the major reasons I have stayed away from PCP is all the messing with bottles and tanks and filling and etc. Seems like it'd be an even bigger hassle with CO2. I'll pump while I can.
Also thanks for the info on the books/forums. Are there any particular titles I should be looking out for?
I'm glad to know not much customization is needed. I've got enough on my hands with mods/repairs to my other guns. Would be nice to just fit a grip, adjust a trigger, and get to shooting!
There's a Morini 162E in our member classified $400 shipped. They're $1800 new.
Very cool! I'll go have a look, thanks!
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Pumping a PCP pistol with a hand pump would be a piece of cake. No bottles or compressors required.
Hand pumps on ebay or amazon can be now had for $30-$40. When I got mine, $100 was CHEAP!
Don't fear the "Darkside"... if you stay here long enough, resistance is futile.
AND...
We have Cookies!
That said, My next pistol is going to be a Crosman 1701 Silhouette
If you buy direct from Crosman and enter the discount code "AGNATION" for 25% off, it is $281.21. and that leaves a whole lotta funds for a hand pump and rear sight of your choice,
(https://www.crosman.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/7/1701p_1.jpg)
Plus I am lucky enough to already have a set of thier Cocobolo grips from a previous build.
(https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/TheGreenCrosmanForum/imageproxy.php?url=http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m634/Airgrips/2240CocoboloFeb192011.jpg)
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Pumping a pistol with a hand pump would be a piece of cake. No bottles or compressors required.
Hand pumps on ebay or amazon can be now had for $30-$40. When I got mine, $100 was CHEAP!
Don't fear the "Darkside"... if you stay here long enough, resistance is futile.
AND...
We have Cookies!
That said, My next pistol is going to be a Crosman 1701 Silhouette
If you buy direct from Crosman and enter the discount code "AGNATION" for 25% off, it is $281.21. and that leaves a whole lotta funds for a hand pump and rear sight of your choice,
(https://www.crosman.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/7/1701p_1.jpg)
Plus I am lucky enough to already have a set of thier Cocobolo grips from a previous build.
(https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/TheGreenCrosmanForum/imageproxy.php?url=http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m634/Airgrips/2240CocoboloFeb192011.jpg)
That does look nice and I am a bit of a Crosman fanboy, I just wasn't sure how well the Crosmans stacked up against other match pistols or if that one would be legal if I decided to join any tournaments. I have a lot of reading to do.
How easy are those grips to come by?
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According to the Crosman site
https://www.crosman.com/1701p-silhouette-pcp-pistol-177 (https://www.crosman.com/1701p-silhouette-pcp-pistol-177)
"Shooting at velocities up to 450 fps, the 1701P is capable of 50 shots per fill."
The number of shots is going to be a problem for standard competition, as a standard men's match is 60 shots + warm up. So you are going to have to stop to refill the pistol in the middle of the match, not good.
The other potential problem is the bolt and William's sight.
The pistol has to fit into a box to be legal. I am concerned about how far to the side the adjustment knobs on the sight, and the bolt stick out. It may fit, I just don't know.
This also depends on how fussy the match organizers are to stick to ALL the rules. Some may be happy you showed up to shoot.
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According to the Crosman site
https://www.crosman.com/1701p-silhouette-pcp-pistol-177 (https://www.crosman.com/1701p-silhouette-pcp-pistol-177)
"Shooting at velocities up to 450 fps, the 1701P is capable of 50 shots per fill."
The number of shots is going to be a problem for standard competition, as a standard men's match is 60 shots + warm up. So you are going to have to stop to refill the pistol in the middle of the match, not good.
The other potential problem is the bolt and William's sight.
The pistol has to fit into a box to be legal. I am concerned about how far to the side the adjustment knobs on the sight, and the bolt stick out. It may fit, I just don't know.
This also depends on how fussy the match organizers are to stick to ALL the rules. Some may be happy you showed up to shoot.
Wonderful info! Just how big is the box?
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Chris - If you go the IZZY route, buy new from Krale. They go in and out of stock, but they are brand new and around $500 shipped (In stock as of this writing).
https://www.krale.shop/en/baikal-mp-46m.html (https://www.krale.shop/en/baikal-mp-46m.html)
And for Gods sake whatever you do, don't buy one from eBay while Krale has them!! Saw a used 46M go for $680 today!
Dennis
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My "official" match ignorance was quite evident there, wasn't it. :-[
- I did not know of it having to fit in a "box" to be legal for official matches, but I guess that makes sense. I have never held a High end target pistol for size comparison.
- Also did not realize 60 shots in a target set. Assumed it was 20 shots with a perfect score being 200 / 20-X
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
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Chris - If you go the IZZY route, buy new from Krale. They go in and out of stock, but they are brand new and around $500 shipped (In stock as of this writing).
https://www.krale.shop/en/baikal-mp-46m.html (https://www.krale.shop/en/baikal-mp-46m.html)
And for Gods sake whatever you do, don't buy one from eBay while Krale has them!! Saw a used 46M go for $680 today!
Dennis
Thanks for the heads up! My lead on it is a friend so I'm likely to purchase from him before I go with a new one but if he's unwilling to sell, I'll consider Krale for sure. Looks like they're .eu based? What's the legality of them shipping over here to trailerparkansas?
My "official" match ignorance was quite evident there, wasn't it. :-[
- I did not know of it having to fit in a "box" to be legal for official matches, but I guess that makes sense. I have never held a High end target pistol for size comparison.
- Also did not realize 60 shots in a target set. Assumed it was 20 shots with a perfect score being 200 / 20-X
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
That's perfectly fine! We're all here to learn, right? I knew nothing of the box, I was just asking if it was comp ready. I also didn't know how matches operate. I'm still furiously searching the 'ol Internets trying to get info on all this as it seems like a very neat aspect of the hobby.
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According to the Crosman site
https://www.crosman.com/1701p-silhouette-pcp-pistol-177 (https://www.crosman.com/1701p-silhouette-pcp-pistol-177)
"Shooting at velocities up to 450 fps, the 1701P is capable of 50 shots per fill."
The number of shots is going to be a problem for standard competition, as a standard men's match is 60 shots + warm up. So you are going to have to stop to refill the pistol in the middle of the match, not good.
The other potential problem is the bolt and William's sight.
The pistol has to fit into a box to be legal. I am concerned about how far to the side the adjustment knobs on the sight, and the bolt stick out. It may fit, I just don't know.
This also depends on how fussy the match organizers are to stick to ALL the rules. Some may be happy you showed up to shoot.
Wonderful info! Just how big is the box?
for ISSF 10M air pistol:
the box measures 420mm x 200mm x 50mm
there is a 15 minute time period for sighters, then shooters are given 75 minutes to shoot 60 shots for record
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AP-60 (shots) is mens
AP-40 (shots) is womens
For local non-regulation matches, anything goes.
Box dimensions are 420 x 200 x 50 mm
See attached pix from the ISSF rule book.
If you get a standard match AP from one of the recognized major manufacturers, it is presumably within the rule dimensions.
It is when you use a non-standard AP that the ruler/box comes out.
Or a match that is in full compliance with ISSF rules.
If you are curious, here is a link to the ISSF rulebook.
https://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2017/ISSFRuleBook2017-2ndPrintV1.1-ENG.pdf (https://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2017/ISSFRuleBook2017-2ndPrintV1.1-ENG.pdf)
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What's the legality of them shipping over here to trailerparkansas?
That, I cannot tell you. Shoot'em an email and ask. I hear they are quite friendly.
I myself was unaware of that deal until the last few weeks when I read of it in some currently running 46M topics.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153027 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153027)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153475 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153475)
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for ISSF 10M air pistol:
the box measures 420mm x 200mm x 50mm
there is a 15 minute time period for sighters, then shooters are given 75 minutes to shoot 60 shots for record
AP-60 (shots) is mens
AP-40 (shots) is womens
For local non-regulation matches, anything goes.
Box dimensions are 420 x 200 x 50 mm
See attached pix from the ISSF rule book.
If you get a standard match AP from one of the recognized major manufacturers, it is presumably within the rule dimensions.
It is when you use a non-standard AP that the ruler/box comes out.
Or a match that is in full compliance with ISSF rules.
If you are curious, here is a link to the ISSF rulebook.
https://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2017/ISSFRuleBook2017-2ndPrintV1.1-ENG.pdf (https://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2017/ISSFRuleBook2017-2ndPrintV1.1-ENG.pdf)
Create a thread about pistol selection, learn all the rules I could ever want! Thanks for these posts, folks. That rulebook PDF and the dimensions/times/shots are all wonderful info. Definitely enough to get me started with practicing in my back yard. I'll work on my aim/stance with my old 1377 for now and keep shopping for match pistol options.
That, I cannot tell you. Shoot'em an email and ask. I hear they are quite friendly.
I myself was unaware of that deal until the last few weeks when I read of it in some currently running 46M topics.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153027 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153027)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153475 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153475)
Also great threads, gives me a lot to think about with regards to the izzy. Thanks a ton!
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This is the book that I would get, and plan to get myself.
http://www.pilkguns.com/store/Pistol-Shooting-Book-p86757637 (http://www.pilkguns.com/store/Pistol-Shooting-Book-p86757637)
It is on my list, as soon as I recover from my holiday spending.
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BTW, one of my most important lessons was learned on an old used Daisy 747.
This was trigger control.
The Daisy-747 can be dry fired, which my other AP (Pardini K58) could not. So I could see what I was doing to the pistol, without the distraction of the gun discharging. So I dry fired a LOT, in learning trigger control. I probably dry fired 10 times, for every pellet I sent down range.
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Great tip on the book!
I've been doing some dry firing and some practice just getting the stance down and raising/lowering the pistol. I definitely need to get some arm strength done. Just one more fun thing to do!
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i have been learning ISSF 10M shooting for a few months now, and still have a ways to go . . .
following is a link to a series by B.B. Pelletier from Pyramid Air - he has written about a multitude of air guns and shooting in general. i have learned from his writings, and believe you may be able to learn a little from him, also.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/05/10-meter-pistol-shooting-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/05/10-meter-pistol-shooting-part-1/) . . . first part of a 7-part series.
another good writing about pistol in general shooting from is: https://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/12PPC01.html?fbclid=IwAR1UQl7s3ZKYKGVblxSwTMT2gVyChsudI1CT1PYztzYfn4W1MlEg0eGE4uA (https://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/12PPC01.html?fbclid=IwAR1UQl7s3ZKYKGVblxSwTMT2gVyChsudI1CT1PYztzYfn4W1MlEg0eGE4uA) . . . first of 12-part series on the art of pistol shooting
much, much more can be read about air pistols, air rifles and air gun shooting by B. B. Pelletier by visiting Pyramid Air's blog at https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/)
hope this helps
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Great tip on the book!
I've been doing some dry firing and some practice just getting the stance down and raising/lowering the pistol. I definitely need to get some arm strength done. Just one more fun thing to do!
One of the things I like about the 46M is its dry fire ability, although the trigger is so light one can breathe wrong and misfire.
And arm strength is one more issue for me as well as I am getting older. I shake all over the place compared to 15 yrs. ago.
I'm sure that if I take off the Red Dot sight it would improve my scores as the gun is already front heavy.
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I see the Izzy is back in stock on Krale...
Just sayin. ;)
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i have been learning ISSF 10M shooting for a few months now, and still have a ways to go . . .
following is a link to a series by B.B. Pelletier from Pyramid Air - he has written about a multitude of air guns and shooting in general. i have learned from his writings, and believe you may be able to learn a little from him, also.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/05/10-meter-pistol-shooting-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/05/10-meter-pistol-shooting-part-1/) . . . first part of a 7-part series.
I am not impressed by BBP.
Yes, he seems knowledgeable in air guns in general, but less so for 10 meter competition stuff. Makes me think of the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none." I don't know that he has even shot in regulation 10 meter matcheS, maybe he has.
I would take what he says with a grain of salt, until you confirm it with a GOOD 10m shooter/site.
He has said things that make me question his level of expertise in 10 meter competition.
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Great tip on the book!
I've been doing some dry firing and some practice just getting the stance down and raising/lowering the pistol. I definitely need to get some arm strength done. Just one more fun thing to do!
One of the things I like about the 46M is its dry fire ability, although the trigger is so light one can breathe wrong and misfire.
And arm strength is one more issue for me as well as I am getting older. I shake all over the place compared to 15 yrs. ago.
I'm sure that if I take off the Red Dot sight it would improve my scores as the gun is already front heavy.
Trigger weight is supposed to be 500 grams MINIMUM.
Many of us do 520g, to give us a 20g buffer. Going right up to 500g is just asking to fail the equipment check.
Trigger weight check is done with a dead weight, not a scale. And there is actually a procedure to do the trigger weight test.
It is air RIFLE that has no minimum trigger weight, the last time I checked the rules.
And you can get some seriously light triggers.
Getting older is a reason to switch to a lighter AP. The compact versions of some APs has become popular with the senior shooter for exactly that reason. Shorter barrel = lighter weight.
Pistols are just like cameras. I cannot carry the 15 pound camera bag that I used to easy carry in my 20s. I switched to a Micro 4/3 system, to reduce my carry weight on long trips.
The other factor is process.
When you shoot, get the shot off within 6 seconds of coming on target. The longer you hold the harder it is on your muscles, and you will tire faster.
Keep the gun down between shots, to rest your arm.
Take brakes. You have plenty of time to get off your 60 record shots. Plan and pace yourself.
For one-hand target shooting, ditch the red-dot. As you said, it just makes the pistol heavier.
That is, unless you NEED it to aim with. Then I would get a LIGHT red-dot.
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Great tip on the book!
I've been doing some dry firing and some practice just getting the stance down and raising/lowering the pistol. I definitely need to get some arm strength done. Just one more fun thing to do!
Be very careful when you work on arm strengthening.
It is very easy to get carried away, go too fast, and injure yourself.
Slow and steady.
And work BOTH arms, or your muscles become un-balanced, even worse than normal.
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The other factor is process.
When you shoot, get the shot off within 6 seconds of coming on target. The longer you hold the harder it is on your muscles, and you will tire faster.
Keep the gun down between shots, to rest your arm.
Take brakes. You have plenty of time to get off your 60 record shots. Plan and pace yourself.
Thanks
Found this interesting article on very similar aspects.
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Rifle/rifle_march_april_2009.pdf (http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Rifle/rifle_march_april_2009.pdf)
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I switched to a Micro 4/3 system, to reduce my carry weight on long trips.
Are you saying I should ditch my Nikon D7100 as well?
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I switched to a Micro 4/3 system, to reduce my carry weight on long trips.
Are you saying I should ditch my Nikon D7100 as well?
he he
Actually I was going to ditch my D7200.
But it turned out that the micro 4/3 camera (and mirrorless cameras in general) are not yet up to the task of fast action/sports. So I have to keep my D7200 for fast sports (I shoot high school sports). The D7200 has become a specialist camera, only for fast sports. Other than that, I use the lighter micro 4/3.
Go to a camera shop with your D7100, and try holding an Olympus EM10.
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Don't know your year 'round weather in Arkansas, but below 60 degrees CO2 isn't a good power supply. Here in Indiana my CO2's are used indoors from October until about April. But for a match shooting pistol, that's perfect for me.
I like oddities, if I could find one of the old Alpha Proj CO2 pistols, for a low enough price, I'd be on it.
Alpha Proj co2 pistol.
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/alfa.jpg)
HD
What I find interesting is that the pix you show has a grip with an adjustable palm shelf.
The pictures of the co2 pistols that I saw when it released did not have an adjustable palm shelf.
The grip looked just like this picture of the PCP version of the Alpha Proj pistol, with a fixed grip. And that was a major factor in what killed it, for me.
I am going to guess that the importer or Air Arms did not want to pay extra for the palm shelf grip.
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I just checked the Pyramid site.
The AA-Alfa Proj PCP is $800 + $170 for the adjustable grip. So $970.
The adjustable grip is pretty much a mandatory item for 10m match shooting.
At that price, I can get a used tier-1 match pistol.
Also the Alfa-Proj PCP is rated for only 80 shots. That is not enough.
That is barely more than a 60 shot match. Add sighters before the match and optional finale, and you are at 80 shots. And how good is the regulator, will it give you 80 GOOD shots, or will it taper down as it approaches 80?
Refilling air in the middle of a match is not a good idea, for various reasons.
. . . I pass.
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Thanks ac12, There are so many details I have learned from this thread that I never got into the depth of before.
Glad I chimed in.
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If you really want to get 10m info, go to
www.targettalk.org (http://www.targettalk.org)
It is sponsored by Pilkington Guns (www.pilkguns.con (http://www.pilkguns.con)) and is limited to Olympic and Bulls-Eye shooting.
I would love to have some of those guys as my coach.
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Be very careful when you work on arm strengthening.
It is very easy to get carried away, go too fast, and injure yourself.
Slow and steady.
And work BOTH arms, or your muscles become un-balanced, even worse than normal.
Always. I'm no stranger to exercise or strength training. I do appreciate the advice, though!
i have been learning ISSF 10M shooting for a few months now, and still have a ways to go . . .
following is a link to a series by B.B. Pelletier from Pyramid Air - he has written about a multitude of air guns and shooting in general. i have learned from his writings, and believe you may be able to learn a little from him, also.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/05/10-meter-pistol-shooting-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/05/10-meter-pistol-shooting-part-1/) . . . first part of a 7-part series.
I am not impressed by BBP.
Yes, he seems knowledgeable in air guns in general, but less so for 10 meter competition stuff. Makes me think of the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none." I don't know that he has even shot in regulation 10 meter matcheS, maybe he has.
I would take what he says with a grain of salt, until you confirm it with a GOOD 10m shooter/site.
He has said things that make me question his level of expertise in 10 meter competition.
Always good to take this sort of thing with a grain of salt. I very much enjoy the PA blog, though.
I see the Izzy is back in stock on Krale...
Just sayin. ;)
I've got a bead on a friend's izzy. I'll probably go with that before buying new once I decide to make the purchase but I'll definitely watch Krale in the future.
One of the things I like about the 46M is its dry fire ability, although the trigger is so light one can breathe wrong and misfire.
And arm strength is one more issue for me as well as I am getting older. I shake all over the place compared to 15 yrs. ago.
I'm sure that if I take off the Red Dot sight it would improve my scores as the gun is already front heavy.
The red dot makes me realize just how much I shake. For whatever reason, though, I can seem to pull my shakes together right before squeezing a round off. Just mental calm, I guess.
If you really want to get 10m info, go to
www.targettalk.org (http://www.targettalk.org)
It is sponsored by Pilkington Guns (www.pilkguns.con (http://www.pilkguns.con)) and is limited to Olympic and Bulls-Eye shooting.
I would love to have some of those guys as my coach.
I suppose I'll have to sign up over there as well. Looks like a fun community.
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As I read the rules, a red dot is not allowed for 10m matches, only OPEN sights.
But for casual home shooting, who cares.
However, I have a problem with a red dot for bulls-eye shooting. The dot can be so big that it completely covers the bull.
You would need to get a really small red dot, that goes inside the bull. But the last time I looked, small dot sights were EXPENSIVE, and not easy to find.
Alternatively, position the red dot at 6-oclock, with the bull just above the red-dot. Or even try a sub-6 hold.
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Tip
Go to the sporting goods store and get a pair of 'skate board' shoes, or the old style tennis shoes.
What you want are shoes where the sole is FLAT.
This is so that you do not rock on your shoe. If your shoe is worn and you rock, you will NOT be able to hold a steady sight picture.
So do NOT use those shoes for anything but shooting, or you will wear edges of the sole and you will rock.
Shoes must be LOW cut, below the ankle bone. So no combat boots allowed ;)
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I am not impressed by BBP.
Yes, he seems knowledgeable in air guns in general, but less so for 10 meter competition stuff. Makes me think of the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none." I don't know that he has even shot in regulation 10 meter matcheS, maybe he has.
I would take what he says with a grain of salt, until you confirm it with a GOOD 10m shooter/site.
He has said things that make me question his level of expertise in 10 meter competition.
I agree completely with that statement. He's too casual about most things he writes about, and not just 10m.
As I read the rules, a red dot is not allowed for 10m matches, only OPEN sights.
But for casual home shooting, who cares.
That is exactly what I use it for. I've been mildly interested in shooting at a club or something like that, but I can't get any of the locals to even answer an email, let alone a phone call, so I just shoot at home.
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Exactly my experience.
No official clubs in my area, sad to say... at least for an old man.
There is a High School league 30 miles south but they do not respond to my inquiries. :P
I am just a "poser" I guess who want to shoot a pistol with his left hand in his pocket for casual 10M fun.
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Exactly my experience.
No official clubs in my area, sad to say... at least for an old man.
There is a High School league 30 miles south but they do not respond to my inquiries. :P
I am just a "poser" I guess who want to shoot a pistol with his left hand in his pocket for casual 10M fun.
Looks like you need to be Asian as well.
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Exactly my experience.
No official clubs in my area, sad to say... at least for an old man.
There is a High School league 30 miles south but they do not respond to my inquiries. :P
I am just a "poser" I guess who want to shoot a pistol with his left hand in his pocket for casual 10M fun.
Looks like you need to be Asian as well.
Tappin out on that one... Anglo Saxon
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Exactly my experience.
No official clubs in my area, sad to say... at least for an old man.
There is a High School league 30 miles south but they do not respond to my inquiries. :P
I am just a "poser" I guess who want to shoot a pistol with his left hand in his pocket for casual 10M fun.
HD,
A tip. Don't crank your head down to your shoulder, to look down your arm, like the guy in the pix.
I used to do that, and it is hard on your neck, especially as you get older. If you are young, you can abuse your body, and it can recover. Not so when you get older.
I now keep my head upright, with my neck as straight as I can, and lift the pistol higher.
BTW, I also shoot my match AR like that, head upright, not leaning over onto the stock.
I cant the rifle over to the left, to bring the sight in line with my eye.
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Thanks for the tip.
I do that with some of my rifles now... and at 56 have been feeling in my neck.
Much appreciated.
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As the saying goes . . . "getting old not worthy, but it is better than the alternative."
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This is all way too far advanced for me. I'm still working on my tongue hold. :P
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This is all way too far advanced for me. I'm still working on my tongue hold. :P
That is funny, because I shoot high school sports, and there are many times where the players have their tongue out. I usually delete those pictures, because I don't think the kids want others to see that.
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Exactly my experience.
No official clubs in my area, sad to say... at least for an old man.
There is a High School league 30 miles south but they do not respond to my inquiries. :P
I am just a "poser" I guess who want to shoot a pistol with his left hand in his pocket for casual 10M fun.
Hoosier Daddy . . . and anyone else . . . you're welcome to come to Camp Perry - there is a monthly air pistol/air rifle match that is open to anyone, regardless of age or skill level . . . the monthly schedule is on this link . . . https://ct.thecmp.org/app/v1/
Hoosier Daddy - from your neighborhood, you should be about a 2 or 2 1/2 hour drive - we have people that drive that far from michigan every month. makes a great day-trip. would love to have you join us ! (and maybe you could show me how to post my target pics on here :-\)
ac12 - save up some pennies and come out in the summer during the National Matches . . . an experience you will cherish forever !
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I have been to Port Clinton, been on fishing charters there.
I may just have to take you up on the invite!
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Tip
Go to the sporting goods store and get a pair of 'skate board' shoes, or the old style tennis shoes.
What you want are shoes where the sole is FLAT.
This is so that you do not rock on your shoe. If your shoe is worn and you rock, you will NOT be able to hold a steady sight picture.
So do NOT use those shoes for anything but shooting, or you will wear edges of the sole and you will rock.
Shoes must be LOW cut, below the ankle bone. So no combat boots allowed ;)
All I ever wear these days are low-top Converse "Chuck Taylors". I buy a new pair every year or so and have since I was a teenager. I'm pretty sure those will qualify. ;D
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Exactly my experience.
No official clubs in my area, sad to say... at least for an old man.
There is a High School league 30 miles south but they do not respond to my inquiries. :P
I am just a "poser" I guess who want to shoot a pistol with his left hand in his pocket for casual 10M fun.
This is basically where I'm at. I don't believe I will have any opportunity to actually compete (at least I haven't found anything remotely near me). It's just a new skill to learn and a new way to shoot my APs. I'd still like to get as close to the real deal as I can, though.
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I currently have 3 pairs of Converse All-stars... or as the youth today call them "Chucks" all Hightops. Old Black mowing shoes, more recent red, and a new pair of blacks... I had no idea a flat sole was good for shooting!
Been my calling card for 5 decades. 8)
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I currently have 3 pairs of Converse All-stars... or as the youth today call them "Chucks" all Hightops. Old Black mowing shoes, more recent red, and a new pair of blacks... I had no idea a flat sole was good for shooting!
Been my calling card for 5 decades. 8)
he he
If you wore one of my old shoes you would know. The heel is worn from walking that when I stand still, I will rock backwards, because of the worn heel.
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I currently have 3 pairs of Converse All-stars... or as the youth today call them "Chucks" all Hightops. Old Black mowing shoes, more recent red, and a new pair of blacks... I had no idea a flat sole was good for shooting!
Been my calling card for 5 decades. 8)
he he
If you wore one of my old shoes you would know. The heel is worn from walking that when I stand still, I will rock backwards, because of the worn heel.
I typically walk right out of my shoes from wear after about the 12 month mark. I swear it's planned obsolescence!
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So one more stupid question since we've already turned this into a "10m AP For Dummies" thread and because it's been difficult for me to ferret training information out of the web:
Do most people practice shooting 10m with both hands? That is, do they take a bunch of shots with their dominant hand and then switch to their other hand? Is that a dumb idea in general?
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So one more stupid question since we've already turned this into a "10m AP For Dummies" thread and because it's been difficult for me to ferret training information out of the web:
Do most people practice shooting 10m with both hands? That is, do they take a bunch of shots with their dominant hand and then switch to their other hand? Is that a dumb idea in general?
There is no dumb question.
Can't do that with a 10 match pistol, the grip is either RH or LH.
You could do that with an ambi grip, but I see no value for target shooting.
On the other hand, for defensive shooting, weak hand shooting is a recognized thing that has to be practiced.
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So one more stupid question since we've already turned this into a "10m AP For Dummies" thread and because it's been difficult for me to ferret training information out of the web:
Do most people practice shooting 10m with both hands? That is, do they take a bunch of shots with their dominant hand and then switch to their other hand? Is that a dumb idea in general?
There is no dumb question.
Can't do that with a 10 match pistol, the grip is either RH or LH.
You could do that with an ambi grip, but I see no value for target shooting.
On the other hand, for defensive shooting, weak hand shooting is a recognized thing that has to be practiced.
Ah, a specific grip would put a dent in that idea, thanks! I'm ambidextrous, so I guess I'm just gonna have to figure out which hand I want to use.
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If you are truly ambidextrous, then figure out your dominant eye.
With both eyes open, Hold you index finger out at arms length and align it to a point about 10 yards away. Without moving close one eye then the other. It will jump side to side. Witch ever is the one that aligns to where you originally sighted in is your dominant eye. I am right handed and right eye dominant.
Others are not.
Unfortunately my vision out of my right eye is failing much faster than my left. ::) :P
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If you are truly ambidextrous, then figure out your dominant eye.
With both eyes open, Hold you index finger out at arms length and align it to a point about 10 yards away. Without moving close one eye then the other. It will jump side to side. Witch ever is the one that aligns to where you originally sighted in is your dominant eye. I am right handed and right eye dominant.
Others are not.
Unfortunately my vision out of my right eye is failing much faster than my left. ::) :P
Interesting tip. It's almost too close to tell but the right seems to be closer than the left. Guess I'll stick with right, then.
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OK you seniors... try not to laugh.
What about an SPA / Artimus / Mrodair CP-1M Targetmaster for an entry level pistol?
I know it is not in the same league as the others mentioned, but for $79.99 it is down to now, if it is honestly as accurate a target pistol as I have read (with a little refining), it is cheap enough to test the waters on 10M shooting.
http://mrodair.com/mrodair_air_max_targetmaster_cp1m_pistol (http://mrodair.com/mrodair_air_max_targetmaster_cp1m_pistol)
(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/fletcherdunton/IMG_4279.jpg~original)
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Good accuracy is not needed for entry level pistol, ergonomics on the other hand are necessary. I would recommend Crosman vigilante if you want to start cheap. Crosman trigger can be filed to quite nice pull and because it is so cheap you could use some body filler to enhance the grips. It is also accurate enough to consistently hit the black area.
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OK you seniors... try not to laugh.
What about an SPA / Artimus / Mrodair CP-1M Targetmaster for an entry level pistol?
I know it is not in the same league as the others mentioned, but for $79.99 it is down to now, if it is honestly as accurate a target pistol as I have read (with a little refining), it is cheap enough to test the waters on 10M shooting.
For casual home shooting, why not?
Well there are a few why nots below.
My point of view is, shoot what you can afford.
It does no good to not shoot, because you cannot afford the top line tier-1 AP.
I shoot an "obsolete" co2 match AP, and it is 'good enough' for me.
My issues/questions are:
- The palm shelf is fixed.
You will have to build up the shelf to fit your hand.
A fixed shelf will not accommodate your hand as it swells/shrinks with the weather.
- How many shots per cartridge. "dozens of effective shots per CO2 cart" tells me nothing.
A match is sighters + 60 record shots + finale. So a possible 90+ shots.
If it will not do 90 shots, you will have to refill in the middle of a match. That is not a problem at home, but could be at a match. The issue is that you will have to dump the remaining co2, before you can change cartridges.
- The bolt is on the right side of the pistol.
This is common for a pistol that is converted from a rifle.
This is OK for a leftie, but a rightie could/will have difficulty working the bolt with his left hand. Or will the shooter have to switch hands to load, which you really do not want to do in a match.
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According to the Crosman site
https://www.crosman.com/1701p-silhouette-pcp-pistol-177 (https://www.crosman.com/1701p-silhouette-pcp-pistol-177)
"Shooting at velocities up to 450 fps, the 1701P is capable of 50 shots per fill."
The number of shots is going to be a problem for standard competition, as a standard men's match is 60 shots + warm up. So you are going to have to stop to refill the pistol in the middle of the match, not good.
The other potential problem is the bolt and William's sight.
The pistol has to fit into a box to be legal. I am concerned about how far to the side the adjustment knobs on the sight, and the bolt stick out. It may fit, I just don't know.
This also depends on how fussy the match organizers are to stick to ALL the rules. Some may be happy you showed up to shoot.
Well, I decide to give the 1701P a try.
After a fair bit of research I find most are getting 70 consistant accurate shots per fill in factory trim, right out of the box... That's starting at 2800psi down to 1800-even more if shot down to 1600 with very little drop in FPS.
There are even comments on it having a power adjustment that is not in the specs, but, I found it IS in the manual section 10A (Hammer Spring Preload Adjuster) and 10B (Striker Stroke Adjustment) to either raise energry / lower shot count or lower energy / raise shot count.
The rear sight is not included and I can mount a variety, even the fore mentioned Williams is available without the target knobs that reduce it's width considerably.
I placed my order today using the 25% AGNATION code and "Free Shipping Friday" and will report back on what I find personally once it arrives.
:D
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HD
Good show.
Let us know how it works out ;D
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Thanks for your advise in what to look for AC!
You had me asking questions on the purchase I never thought about before and that is much appreciated.
If my Crosman CCS wood RH target grips don't work out, I can always save up for a set of Steve Corcoran's adjustable beauties like this.
8)
(http://airgunner.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/FullSizeRender-32-e1453929116494.jpg)
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H/Daddy, Sorry to tell you that Steve is no longer in the businesses, I have two of his custom stocks and must say he was one of the best!! J.L.
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That blows... his wood work was amazing.
*Edit*
Sounds like there may be a glimmer of hope if one is patient and keeps an eye on his website.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=147345 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=147345)
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Following along and wondering if you got the 1701 yet and how its progressing. I am about to make the same journey into a new silhouette /10m pistol.
Mark Hogan
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I had it delivered to work and it just got here today!
Can't play with it until I get home. ::)
Longest afternoon I can remember in a quite a while... ;)
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I had it delivered to work and it just got here today!
Can't play with it until I get home. ::)
Longest afternoon I can remember in a quite a while... ;)
he he
Been there done that.
Can't open the box in the office, for various reasons.
Inches away, but . . .
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Now that I am home, I started a review here...https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=154768 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=154768)
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Can't open the box in the office, for various reasons.
Isn't that what the copy room is for? (Unless two other people are in there having.....well, you know). ;)
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DUDE... I worked there before!
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DUDE... I worked there before!
I thought I recognized your voice in there.
Next time....lock the door please? Some of us have mysterious packages to open, ya know?
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Based on your original post, I would suggest an Avanti (Daisy) 747. You can find nice wood grips for them if desired. Yes there is a lot of plastic but these darn things keep going forever. And they are easy and cheap to fix. Daisy ( now owned by Gamo) has discontinued almost all of their SSP line. But they still have tons of parts. The 717 is still made and lnib 747s can be found. When you can outshoot this pistol, then move up to a more expensive brand/model. You may find that the pistol will always outshoot you. And that is not a criticism of you, it's that they are that good.
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There is a nice Daisy 777 on ebay right now.
If I wasn't in another buid at the moment I would think about it...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAISY-AIR-PISTOL-777-POWERLINE-MATCH-PUMP-PISTOL-177-W-BOX-EXCELLENT/192847365863?hash=item2ce69946e7:g:eHMAAOSwCuBcfrW1 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAISY-AIR-PISTOL-777-POWERLINE-MATCH-PUMP-PISTOL-177-W-BOX-EXCELLENT/192847365863?hash=item2ce69946e7:g:eHMAAOSwCuBcfrW1)
But wait... that is more than I paid for my NIB 1710P :P
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So as a follow up to this old thread.
WesBob is the curator of Airgun Archery Fun in Canada and he is selling a Listone Vector in either CO2 or PCP.
https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/victor-co2-match-target-pistol-177/ (https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/victor-co2-match-target-pistol-177/)
From all my research, it seems Vector is now the China manufacturer for CZ who then supplies them to Air Arms.
I just purchased a Red in CO2, If there is still interest in this thread, let me know and I will post a link of my review here when it arrives.
(http://img.allzip.org/g/3/orig/11256930.jpg)
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Regarding competition: I'd love to try but I don't know that there's anything around me for that and I couldn't get proper training in my area. There's some casual shoots nearby.
Come join us for one of our casual shoots. We've got an assortment of equipment to try and several shooters that are quite adept at pistol competition.
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So as a follow up to this old thread.
WesBob is the curator of Airgun Archery Fun in Canada and he is selling a Listone Vector in either CO2 or PCP.
https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/victor-co2-match-target-pistol-177/ (https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/victor-co2-match-target-pistol-177/)
From all my research, it seems Vector is now the China manufacturer for CZ who then supplies them to Air Arms.
I just purchased a Red in CO2, If there is still interest in this thread, let me know and I will post a link of my review here when it arrives.
(http://img.allzip.org/g/3/orig/11256930.jpg)
I got this off the PCP version
- It gets 30+ shots from 2700psi to 1200psi
https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/victor-pcp-match-target-pistol-177/ (https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/victor-pcp-match-target-pistol-177/)
30 shots is an unusably LOW number of shots for a match pistol.
A regulation match is 60 shots, add sighters and finale, and you could easily be at 80+ shots.
That would require two refills in the middle of the match :(
However, for casual home use, the low shot count per fill does not matter.
You would also need the $150 adjustable grip.
https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/air-arms-alfa-competition-pistol-grip-right-hand/ (https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/air-arms-alfa-competition-pistol-grip-right-hand/)
So final cost would be $420.
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The CO2 version I am getting reportedly gets 60+ shots out of a single cart according to several reviews I found on-line, although rather slow at 400-420 fps. It also should have a power adjustment screw to crank it up a bit, but then shot count will suffer.
I did read one review where a gent was comparing it to his Baikal IZH-46 and said it was too close to tell the difference.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yellow/couple-of-new-pistols-from-mrodair-short-review-t228054.html#p2517535 (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yellow/couple-of-new-pistols-from-mrodair-short-review-t228054.html#p2517535)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/rob3dr_in_NC/MRODAIR%20Pistols/DSC02147_zpsda2gyqxk.jpg)
Once mine gets here I will give it an honest review compared to my 1701-P (pcp) that cost a $100 more.
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IMHO, low velocity in the 400s does not matter, too much, IF it is accurate.
But the slower the velocity, the longer the pellet stays in the barrel, and is subject to shooter movement.
If you want more velocity, you can always use the trick that the spring match pistols used, shoot a lighter pellet.
Shot count per charge/load is important only in a match.
At home, who cares that you have to recharge in the middle of a shoot.
That ambi grip however may be a problem.
I have not found any ambi target grip/stock that I like. IMHO, ambi = NOT right or left.
And without the palm shelf, you have to GRIP the pistol harder than you need to.
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AP-60 (shots) is mens
AP-40 (shots) is womens
For local non-regulation matches, anything goes.
Box dimensions are 420 x 200 x 50 mm
See attached pix from the ISSF rule book.
If you get a standard match AP from one of the recognized major manufacturers, it is presumably within the rule dimensions.
It is when you use a non-standard AP that the ruler/box comes out.
Or a match that is in full compliance with ISSF rules.
If you are curious, here is a link to the ISSF rulebook.
https://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2017/ISSFRuleBook2017-2ndPrintV1.1-ENG.pdf (https://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2017/ISSFRuleBook2017-2ndPrintV1.1-ENG.pdf)
Also, the trigger has to be 500 grams or more. (17.64 ounces)
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AP-60 (shots) is mens
AP-40 (shots) is womens
For local non-regulation matches, anything goes.
Box dimensions are 420 x 200 x 50 mm
See attached pix from the ISSF rule book.
If you get a standard match AP from one of the recognized major manufacturers, it is presumably within the rule dimensions.
It is when you use a non-standard AP that the ruler/box comes out.
Or a match that is in full compliance with ISSF rules.
If you are curious, here is a link to the ISSF rulebook.
https://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2017/ISSFRuleBook2017-2ndPrintV1.1-ENG.pdf (https://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2017/ISSFRuleBook2017-2ndPrintV1.1-ENG.pdf)
Also, the trigger has to be 500 grams or more. (17.64 ounces)
I now do 550 grams.
I was at a match once, and the gun "barely" qualified.
The gun failed the standard lift test.
The inspector had to lift the gun very carefully and slowly, to not have the trigger release.
IOW, the trigger was right at or a hair above 500 grams. Way too close for comfort.
The inspector suspected two things.
- My use of a non-regulation weight and holder. The weight may not have been EXACTLY 500 grams. And I did not have/use a regulation weight holder. Note the test is done with a dead weight, not a scale.
- The higher 95+F ambient temp at the range (vs 65F at home), may have affected the trigger mechanism, making it easier to move.
He suggested that I go higher than the 520 grams that I had used, to increase the "buffer," for problems such as what I had.
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I know the feeling, every time I went to the table, I was sweating pellets..
I never failed, but I was always worried.
Ian