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Author Topic: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?  (Read 9923 times - 1 votes) 
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Offline Spin

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #600 on: October 13, 2021, 03:42:02 AM »
I’m far more concerned about water availability, soil erosion, food sustainability.

The electricity problem will resolve itself.
Well I know the food question popped up yesterday. So today this article was featured in The Washington Post, Interesting to be sure
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/bread-baking-sustainable-grain-kernza/?itid=hp_Climate%20box
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Offline DevilsLuck

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #601 on: October 13, 2021, 10:50:03 AM »
I’m far more concerned about water availability, soil erosion, food sustainability.

The electricity problem will resolve itself.
Well I know the food question popped up yesterday. So today this article was featured in The Washington Post, Interesting to be sure
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/bread-baking-sustainable-grain-kernza/?itid=hp_Climate%20box

Pay wall...
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Offline rsterne

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #602 on: October 13, 2021, 11:49:09 AM »
Quote
Wood and other "Geen" plant growth that can be used for fuel along with trees Sequester atmospheric carbon reducing green house effect.

Have you ever lived in a rural area where wood heat predominates?.... Have you seen valleys filled with smoke from doing so?.... Have you seen the mountains of wood it takes to heat a single house for one winter?.... Do you even know how long it takes a tree to grow to maturity, so that the cycle can be repeated?....

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Offline Horatio

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #603 on: October 13, 2021, 12:03:53 PM »
Quote
Wood and other "Geen" plant growth that can be used for fuel along with trees Sequester atmospheric carbon reducing green house effect.

Have you ever lived in a rural area where wood heat predominates?.... Have you seen valleys filled with smoke from doing so?.... Have you seen the mountains of wood it takes to heat a single house for one winter?.... Do you even know how long it takes a tree to grow to maturity, so that the cycle can be repeated?....

Bob

Depends on the tree. Problem is a lot of trees that are hard enough to contain a lot of BTUs are slow growth. If they grow fast and contain decent BTUs those trees often don’t split well.

Red Alder 25 years. Poplars ~20 years. Doug fir 30-40. Western Redcedar 40+. Big leaf maple? Cherry?

“There are no solutions, only trade offs.” Thomas Sowell

I predict a lot of movement. I predict when the petro dollar ceases to be reserve currency population moving to be closer to food production. I predict places like so cal being more untenable.
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Offline JuryRigger

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #604 on: October 13, 2021, 01:39:25 PM »
He ignored the fact that it takes DECADES to regrow a tree burned in less than a month to heat a house.... I wonder what that idjut thinks about burning down trees in the Amazon?.... "Hey that CO2 will grow more trees"....   :o
Bob
Bob-I've been biting my tongue since I've read that statement, but cannot help but say it...
But, there is neither logic, nor reason to that statement-you are using a carefully chosen isolated fact to make a blanket statement that cannot in of itself answer the actual question... While your observation that it takes many decades to grow that single tree to heat one house in less than a month is absolutely correct (at least for a certain populous within a certain region)-it does not in any way confirm the idea that heating with wood is unsustainable; as that question encompasses far more than one tree, or one home... Does not the answer to the whole question require data regarding the total woodlot area that can be devoted to the target population? Does it not require study of the characteristics of the timber grown in that area, analysis of the climate and subsequent BTU consumption in the average winter, and in extremes? Does it not require as a matter of it's study, also the determination of the impact of such woodlots on the local wildlife? And, furthermore-is it not a question who's value might be both true and false-depending on the specific area being discussed?
I am not trying to be an @@@; nor to stage a personal attack-but I am witnessing the use of these partial facts, isolated facts, and blanket statements to perpetuate a desired outcome regarding such subject(s) upon discussion on a rapidly increasing basis... And it is nothing short of deceptive and misleading in this world of instant gratification to our already made-up minds with such blanket statements just a click away from backing up our chosen view based on our own ideology and bias...
I hope you can understand what I am trying to say, without taking it personally-as I have noticed myself tending to use such arguments as the basis for my debating skills... I believe when one is surrounded by such tactics, is becomes difficult to not fall into the trap of using them yourself...
I fear that the ability to converse in rational manner(s) based on logic and reason is being lost upon us; which will have far greater consequences for mankind than the coming lack of electricity...  :(
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Offline rsterne

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #605 on: October 13, 2021, 05:03:53 PM »
I must admit I have never seen a carefully considered study on the effects of heating large numbers of houses with continuous, sustainable harvesting of huge woodlots.... You may well be correct that it is environmentally friendly, and would have less effect on global CO2 over the long term.... I suspect the scientists don't bother doing such a study because of the costs involved in harvesting, splitting, delivering, stacking, carrying, woodstove feeding, chimney cleaning, and maintenance, fire danger (and lack of available insurance) and then replanting to (40-50 years later) repeat the cycle.... I know I'm too old to be using wood to heat, it's simply too much heavy, backbreaking work, so perhaps my bias is showing.... It's just way to easy for me to adjust my thermostat and use 100% sustainable hyrdoelectric power to stay comfortable....

My purpose for starting this thread was to question the future availability of the increased electricity required to electrify vehicles, how that power will be distributed, who will pay for the upgrades to the infrastructure, and ultimately what all of that will do to our energy costs.... I want people to start to think about the consequences of sudden, legislated changes to our everyday transportation....

I am not blind to environmental change and damage.... Every time I go hunting, I see more and larger clearcuts, with fewer and fewer viable patches of forest in between.... I moved here just 14 years ago, and the area has transformed from mostly forest with a few logged areas, replanted and coming back.... to mostly clearcuts with a few trees scattered here and there, and even fewer seedlings that might, with a lot of luck, be harvestable timber decades after I am dead and gone.... Yes, most of those trees go to produce lumber and paper, but just think about how many trees would have to be cut to heat all the homes in a city!.... Never going to happen, even if they could levitate the trees to the houses, already split and stacked.... Most city dwellers are too busy, lazy, pick your adjective to even comtemplate heating with wood.... and thank heaven for that....

While you may very well be correct that I am having a knee-jerk reaction to what I view as the preposterous idea that heating with wood is sustainable and environmentally friendly.... I would point out that if it is such a great solution, why aren't there scientific papers to back that up, that those claiming it to be sustainable can reference when I bring up the contrary argument, based on my personal observations.... Put simply, if I'm wrong, show me the proof.... Otherwise I am content to look out my window any fall day, watching truck after trailer of wood driving by, and wondering what is going on?....

Want some numbers? (compliments of Google).... A 12" tree (larger than most around here) yields 0.3 cords of wood, and it takes on average 3 cords of wood to heat a 1000 sq.ft. house..... That works out to 10 trees a year.... White pine has a growth factor of 5, so it takes 5 years per inch of diameter.... For a 12" tree, that means on average 60 years.... so you would need a woodlot of 600 trees, spaced out enough for each to grow to 12" across in 60 years, to heat a single 1000 sq.ft. house....

Lastly, here is a link about wood-burning being carbon neutral....

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/epa-declares-burning-wood-carbon-neutral-180968880/

While in theory, it "can" be, in practice it would appear that is unlikely....  :(

Bob
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 05:43:17 PM by rsterne »
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Offline JuryRigger

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #606 on: October 13, 2021, 06:35:30 PM »
Bob-I would like to make it clear that I only took exception to how you made your point-not the point itself. I did not intend to infer that large-scale wood heating was either economical or eco-friendly; only that the statement that it takes a tree 'many decades to grow to heat a home for less than a month' alone was not an acceptable or complete arguement against it...
Having said that; I heartily agree that large scale wood heat for the masses is impossibly impractical... Much less carbon-neutral; as in theory (have not yet read the Smithsonian link-this is personal opinion) wood could only remain carbon-neutral if the cycle consisted of only the burning and regrowth of wood-you simply cannot include fossil fuel to cut or transport that wood, as it is not a product of the growth of the tree itself... Which in all reality is only accomplished on a case-by-case basis on individual country plots/homes... So no, I absolutely agree that wood heat for anything other than country homes with a sizeable, local woodlot (ideally big enough so that deadfall is sufficient to supply the required wood)-is nothing short of a pipe dream.
Jesse


 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 06:38:10 PM by JuryRigger »
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Offline Nomadic Pirate

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #607 on: October 13, 2021, 08:01:42 PM »
And we circle around :) to many houses to build ( Depleting the natural resources )
To many house to heat, to many houses to supply energy to, to many people to feed and so on.

Natural resources are limited,..... cutting down more and more forests to build house, to make grasslands for animals to feed people, to make more food plots.

Again, excessive human population is the root of all problems and it will go downhill fast at this rate.
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Offline Sfttailrdr46

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?which view is the correct one
« Reply #608 on: October 13, 2021, 08:16:56 PM »
Based on that premise the world as we know it is doomed because we the human race are about to breed ourselves into extinction. I prefer to think that we can fix this without painting ourselves into a deadly corner. Time will tell which theory is the right one. I prefer to believe that we can come up with a workable solution but in all likelihood, I won't be around to see the eventual outcome of this Delima
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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #609 on: October 13, 2021, 11:21:24 PM »
And we circle around :) to many houses to build ( Depleting the natural resources )
To many house to heat, to many houses to supply energy to, to many people to feed and so on.

Natural resources are limited,..... cutting down more and more forests to build house, to make grasslands for animals to feed people, to make more food plots.

Again, excessive human population is the root of all problems and it will go downhill fast at this rate.

Dang doom and gloom. I suppose making some more cute babies is my only recourse 😜😂


In all seriousness, I used to think like that. But now I think more kids the better.
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Offline mrbulk

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #610 on: October 14, 2021, 12:23:33 AM »
Just out of curiosity: how fast will these electricmobiles go?

Sorry been away from this thread for awhile. My last one went 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and ran high 13-second quarters.

My wife's one now (yes, she became a believer after I got mine and got an SUV version) will go 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. Not sure the quarter mile though, mama don't play them racing games. ;)
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Offline mrbulk

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #611 on: October 14, 2021, 12:28:52 AM »
The performance models are quick. When we were looking at Teslas, the rep made a point of differentiating the performance model from the long range model. Since we are focused on range for some of our travels, he pointed out how the car located 'supercharger' stations, etc. and emphasized the range of the long range models.
The battery longevity is a question yet to be answered. More modern batteries seem to be more tolerant of heavy discharge and rapid recharge than older designs. Tesla warrants their batteries for 4 yr / 50k and a replacement is around $12k. That could be a deal breaker for some. We haven't decided, but probably won't go Tesla when we actually buy another vehicle.
 :)

Hmmm, my first Tesla had 8 years and unlimited miles on the battery. But today the lower priced Model 3 for example only comes with 8 years or 100,000 miles (or 120,000 miles in the case of the long-range battery Model 3). But the rest of the car has only the 4 year/50,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty.
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Offline mrbulk

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #612 on: October 14, 2021, 12:45:47 AM »
So.......Where is the electricity going to come from ?

Actually it will be different strokes for most folks. For example me and my brother-in-law (married to my sister, poor guy - haw haw just kidding) own homes with solar panels. So we charge our cars at home all the time. He took it a step further and installed house wall batteries so that the daily overage in electricity generated by the panels is stored in his batteries for rainy days and whatnot. I do have to switch to the grid at times for really thickly overcast and rainy days, but you'd be surprised - even on those days we do generate electricity, just not enough to not tap into the grid. But at my sister's house they carry on with all their usual energy activities (like running their central A/C 24/7) day and night, 'cause they got batteries for the night.

There can also be huge remote solar arrays that produce enough to transmit to surrounding towns and neighborhoods, but each area and terrain will have slightly different particular requirements s all.

BUT the BIG THING about electric cars that is misunderstood though, is that even with a house and solar panels and batteries and everything else, everybody assumes you have to go home and charge for nine hours every night.

NOT TRUE. Each of the three EVs in our two families (with my Cybertruck hopefully showing up some time next year) have well over 200 miles of battery range, in fact two of them have well over 300 miles. Unless you are a taxi driver or police officer or use your car for deliveries all day or something, most folks rarely drive 200 miles a day. In fact a NHTSA (or maybe it was IIHS) study showed that the average person in the U.S. drives 40 miles a day. At that rate, my EV would recharge (or should I say Top Up) in a few minutes. In fact by the time I get home, plug in, and maybe have dinner the car would already be done charging.
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Offline Horatio

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #613 on: October 14, 2021, 03:37:33 AM »
And we circle around :) to many houses to build ( Depleting the natural resources )
To many house to heat, to many houses to supply energy to, to many people to feed and so on.

Natural resources are limited,..... cutting down more and more forests to build house, to make grasslands for animals to feed people, to make more food plots.

Again, excessive human population is the root of all problems and it will go downhill fast at this rate.

Dang doom and gloom. I suppose making some more cute babies is my only recourse 😜😂


In all seriousness, I used to think like that. But now I think more kids the better.

Yes. More kids better.

Silviculture is a good example. Forests are more productive than ever, while simultaneously understanding more about helping cut-blocks follow a more natural path to help prevent caribou predation.

I don’t see doom and gloom. Just population moves and decentralization when empires come to their end.
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Offline Wayne52

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #614 on: October 14, 2021, 07:39:26 AM »
I'll never buy an electric car.
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Offline buldawg76

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #615 on: October 15, 2021, 01:43:08 AM »
I'll never buy an electric car.

+1
I am not sitting on top of enough voltage and amperage to turn me into ashes in milliseconds if there is a major short circuit failure. If its made by humans there is always the chance for errors on a catastrophic level. A Nissan leaf is capable of discharging 480 volts at 3000 amps from its battery pack and its one of the smallest battery packs used in todays electric cars. Lots of C cell sized batteries packaged right under the passenger compartments. Not in my lifetime.

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Offline Horatio

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #616 on: October 15, 2021, 02:30:14 AM »
I'll never buy an electric car.

+1
I am not sitting on top of enough voltage and amperage to turn me into ashes in milliseconds if there is a major short circuit failure. If its made by humans there is always the chance for errors on a catastrophic level. A Nissan leaf is capable of discharging 480 volts at 3000 amps from its battery pack and its one of the smallest battery packs used in todays electric cars. Lots of C cell sized batteries packaged right under the passenger compartments. Not in my lifetime.

BD

There’s definitely that. My stepdad was a line electrician. “It’s not the volts, it’s the amps that will kill you.” He told me.

Port of LA/LB have put further automation plans on hold.

Why?

Not enough juice.
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Offline JuryRigger

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #617 on: October 15, 2021, 12:10:37 PM »
I'll never buy an electric car.

+1
I am not sitting on top of enough voltage and amperage to turn me into ashes in milliseconds if there is a major short circuit failure. If its made by humans there is always the chance for errors on a catastrophic level. A Nissan leaf is capable of discharging 480 volts at 3000 amps from its battery pack and its one of the smallest battery packs used in todays electric cars. Lots of C cell sized batteries packaged right under the passenger compartments. Not in my lifetime.

BD
And-there's that  :o
Not a fan of being incinerated....
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Offline buellm2

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #618 on: October 15, 2021, 02:19:22 PM »
There have been a number of defective battery packs catching fire but has anyone ever been incinerated by that fire?  Many have been incinerated by gasoline tank fires.   Maybe there aren't enough elec. cars on the road for a long enough period of time to know the relative fire danger.
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Offline rsterne

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Re: Where is the Electricty Going to Come From?
« Reply #619 on: October 15, 2021, 04:43:31 PM »
Just an observation.... The number of car fires in recent years has been increasing, IMO.... Other than a few cars (was it the Pinto?) that were notorious for severe fires decades ago, there were few serious fires in cars, in fact I would call them a rarity.... Now it seems quite common, or perhaps they are more serious now because of the amount of plastic and other flammable materials used in construction.... I know the new "bio-based" wire insulation is beloved by rodents, and that causes many fires and huge repair costs when they start trying to eat it.... Formula One cars, which have large battery packs, have a warning light to show the system is armed, to prevent electrocution in the event of an accident or a car stopping on track (or in the pits)....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
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