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Author Topic: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?  (Read 790 times))

Offline Mzq284

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2022, 03:26:36 PM »
Sh00ter, i have a 1322 that is the  ballistic twin to  Flint's 1322. At 50 yards it will shoot through an Altoids tin, both sides, with crosman h.p.s. Altoid tins are tough, when my gun was stock it wouldnt go clear through at only 20yds. Neither would my 1377. Try your guns on Altoid tins, its eye opening. If you can punch one at 50yds, you can kill small game. They both shoot flat enough inside their effective range.

Before I modded mine i shot a few red squirrels, one through both shoulders at 24 paces, so even stock they are capable.

A friend thinks the only reason i eat Altoids is to have tins to shoot. Not true, but its a great side benefit!       
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Offline Mzq284

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2022, 03:29:09 PM »
My 1322 has the stock 10 inch barrel,  btw
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2022, 05:29:09 PM »
My 1322 has the stock 10 inch barrel,  btw

VERY impressive @ 50yrds w/ that barrel especially!!! I save sardine cans for testing myself. Otherwise I use soup or bean cans. But I'd imagine the Altoids can test would be good too. The fact you can hit that can @ 50yrds is also impressive. How many pumps?

On anything beyond 15yrds I definitely prefer the 1377.

Beyond that distance with a 1322, you simply can see the pellet trajectory. Which is a kind of loopy one, actually.

To me the 1322 is a short distance up to 10yrds puncher only. And does that great !

YES! This is sort of what I was thinking when I created this thread. Even if you look at the recent mall shooting where the hero used a glock 9mm @40-50yrds with 8 of 10 on target, I question how well 45acp from the same length barrel would have done. At some point, I "feel" like the 177 (w/ heavier pellet??????) would have the advantage at longer range from the 13xx power plant.
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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2022, 04:15:32 AM »
well I am a 13xx carbine fan...had fun making hybrids with valve mods and longer barrels and removable stock... for 30 yards well I tend to like .22 14.3g at ~650 fps on up...

The Mk1322 sends 14.3 cpum/cphp pretty decent...can see below... with a 22" barrel... has a big valve.. .24 ci  and about same pump swept volume as a 2100...so takes some pumps...before making it a 1322 as a MK177 with a 16" barrel and the valve mods it hit 905fps with 7.9g cphp... 1025 when I cheated an heated the valve from about 68* f to about 130* f...

MY 362-17 long sends 13.4 Monsters 692 fps out of a 26" barrel... a lot fewer pumps ... 8 ...if I get off my rear increase valve volume to about .13 ci from about .1 ci and some porting behind poppet should get around 750 fps maybe more from the Monsters...10-11 pumps will give roughly same psi as stock...

when first put it together harmonics said send 10.3 cpum at about 725 fps for best accuracy..right now it is set up to send the 16g Beast  at 8 pumps... 

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=196173.0 

had a 2100b  ~ .07 ci valve that was very accurate with 10.5g cpum and Winchester 9.8g round nose... right around 670 fps... then choked the barrel and the 7.4g pointed crosman became the pellet that was .5" at 30 yards at about 740 fps...

point is it will end up liking what it likes at what speed it likes them at... once valve size exceeds about 1/3 barrel volume...the fpe/fps gains slow their rate increase a lot... but

Short barrels and  small valves tend to favor light pellets...Big valves and long barrels favor Heavy for caliber pellets...

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=71683.0
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PC77 steel breech 18.7" barrel,  700 fps @ 15 & 755 @ 20 pumps with 7.4g Crosman points

1322 steel breech 14.5" barrel, 640-650 fps @ 22 pumps w/14.3g CPHP

1322 MLT steel breech 19" barrel, 682 fps @ 22 pumps w/14.3g CPHP,  13xx/66 hybrid

1322XLT 22" barrel, 700 fps  @ 11 pumps & 750 @ 16 w/14.3g CPHP,   13xx/2100 hybrid

MK-1322 steel breech 22" barrel, 750 fps @ 17 pumps & 805 @ 22 w/14.3g CPHP,   Mk-177/2240/13xx hybrid

U.S. Shooting Team 953  reduced valve, 525 fps w/ 7.4g points

Offline Tweaker

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2022, 04:58:26 PM »
I would expect that with the same vavle the .177 + heavy pellet has to have a range advantage. In powderburners whenever they neck down a cartridge meaning the amount of gunpowder is the same but the caliber is lower the potential effective range seems to increase.  Theres a reason why most rifle bullets are skinny/long.
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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2022, 05:06:07 PM »
I would expect that with the same vavle the .177 + heavy pellet has to have a range advantage. In powderburners whenever they neck down a cartridge meaning the amount of gunpowder is the same but the caliber is lower the potential effective range seems to increase.  Theres a reason why most rifle bullets are skinny/long.

that is once you make the fpe internally... which to match the fpe of the .22 with the same valve will need ~1/3 longer barrel...
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PC77 steel breech 18.7" barrel,  700 fps @ 15 & 755 @ 20 pumps with 7.4g Crosman points

1322 steel breech 14.5" barrel, 640-650 fps @ 22 pumps w/14.3g CPHP

1322 MLT steel breech 19" barrel, 682 fps @ 22 pumps w/14.3g CPHP,  13xx/66 hybrid

1322XLT 22" barrel, 700 fps  @ 11 pumps & 750 @ 16 w/14.3g CPHP,   13xx/2100 hybrid

MK-1322 steel breech 22" barrel, 750 fps @ 17 pumps & 805 @ 22 w/14.3g CPHP,   Mk-177/2240/13xx hybrid

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Offline Tweaker

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2022, 05:28:53 PM »
-
« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 05:33:17 PM by Tweaker »
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Offline Tweaker

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2022, 05:30:27 PM »

that is once you make the fpe internally... which to match the fpe of the .22 with the same valve will need ~1/3 longer barrel...

yea that makes sense , the .22 and larger in short pistol barrels seem to do better than .177
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2022, 06:15:38 PM »
Accidental duplicate post..plz delete mod.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 06:22:03 PM by Sh00ter »
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2022, 06:16:47 PM »

that is once you make the fpe internally... which to match the fpe of the .22 with the same valve will need ~1/3 longer barrel...

yea that makes sense , the .22 and larger in short pistol barrels seem to do better than .177


point is it will end up liking what it likes at what speed it likes them at... once valve size exceeds about 1/3 barrel volume...the fpe/fps gains slow their rate increase a lot... but

Short barrels and  small valves tend to favor light pellets...Big valves and long barrels favor Heavy for caliber pellets...


Yeah, my observation is exactly that...the stock 1322 has a lot more punch up close (not sure if close is 10yrds, or 15, or even farther?).

BUT, when I test the stock 1377, the heavy pellet still outperforms the light pellet (meaning FPE for hunting, not testing accuracy). So not sure if a light pellet for hunting with 177 would EVER be a better choice than heavy???????

I just need to find out if a 1377 is EVER a better hunter than a 1322 in any form. In my case, it would likely be a comparison between a stock 2289g w/14.5" barrel, and a stock 1377 w/16" barrel at first, then adding the Mellon FT piston setup to the 1377.

But from this thread and other research, I think 600FPS at the muzzle is a good bare minimum figure for 22cal if you want to hunt farther than ~20yrds? Even then, I wonder if 177 is the better choice from the same power plant.

What could a 22 kill at 500-600FPS that a 177 couldn't at 600-700FPS if using a 10.5gr pellet AT ANY RANGE??? YES, at 10yrds if I had to kill a raccoon, I'd pick the 1322/2289 over the 1377 w/heavy. But if rabbit hunting, I still think/wonder if a heavy 177 could potentially cover ALL reasonable airgun hunting ranges better than a 22 FROM THE 13XX powerplant.

If a 1377 can be made to do it all, then why have to switch between guns? If you are really hunting, you might not know in advance how far your shot opportunities will be.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 06:20:52 PM by Sh00ter »
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Offline Mzq284

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2022, 07:04:30 PM »

My 1322 has the stock 10 inch barrel,  btw
[/quote]

VERY impressive @ 50yrds w/ that barrel especially!!! I save sardine cans for testing myself. Otherwise I use soup or bean cans. But I'd imagine the Altoids can test would be good too. The fact you can hit that can @ 50yrds is also impressive. How many pumps?

Sh00ter,
I zeroed that gun at 25yds with 10 pumps for 540fps. For 50 yards i pump it 14 times for 620fps. Its about a half inch low. As far as for hunting, both calibers will work.  Maybe you should go with your first instinct. Both work,  im just biased in favor of 22 cals. The same reason I deer hunt with 44 and 45 cal handguns instead of 357s. No offense, but if you're favorite is 177s and most of your guns are that caliber, why not  stick with what you know? That's why most of mine are 22s. You have a 2289, hunt with it and your pet 1377 for a season and see what conclusion you come to? That's  what I would do. Whichever you choose,  have a great hunting season!
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2022, 07:51:21 PM »

My 1322 has the stock 10 inch barrel,  btw

VERY impressive @ 50yrds w/ that barrel especially!!! I save sardine cans for testing myself. Otherwise I use soup or bean cans. But I'd imagine the Altoids can test would be good too. The fact you can hit that can @ 50yrds is also impressive. How many pumps?

Sh00ter,
I zeroed that gun at 25yds with 10 pumps for 540fps. For 50 yards i pump it 14 times for 620fps. Its about a half inch low. As far as for hunting, both calibers will work.  Maybe you should go with your first instinct. Both work,  im just biased in favor of 22 cals. The same reason I deer hunt with 44 and 45 cal handguns instead of 357s. No offense, but if you're favorite is 177s and most of your guns are that caliber, why not  stick with what you know? That's why most of mine are 22s. You have a 2289, hunt with it and your pet 1377 for a season and see what conclusion you come to? That's  what I would do. Whichever you choose,  have a great hunting season!
[/quote]

Thanks for the additional info and perspectives.

For Deer hunting w/ handgun, no farther than the shots, I'd completely agree with you on your choice. It would be link choosing 1322 for closer varmint shots vs 1377. Maybe that is why .20cal is the "41 magnum" of airgun world. Rarer, best of both worlds or worst of each depending on how you look at it LOL.

I don't hunt yet anyway with these guns; mainly just want the capability for emergency use. I have done some pesting and used both. They both worked so far. I will just have to do some experiments (as mentioned by some above with Altoid cans and spinners) and also some chrony work to get a better idea if 177 is as good or better than the 22 from the 13xx powerplant.
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Offline Flint

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2022, 10:57:50 PM »

All good information, what barrel on the 1322?

oh sorry, the barrel length on my 1322 is 18" I'm pretty sure.  maybe 16" but I think 18"

I had a friend order a 1377 carbine from the crosman custom shop a couple years ago.  I don't remember all the specs but something like, steel breech, 16-18" barrel, stock, scope but totally stock as far as power goes - though I'm sure got a little extra from the barrel.  He never pumped it past 10 but usually used 7-8 pumps, and was was effective with squirrels with it. 

Offline Mzq284

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2022, 02:39:08 AM »
I guess it all comes down to the old saying;  it's WHERE you hit em, not WHAT you hit em with.
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2022, 01:20:53 PM »
I guess it all comes down to the old saying;  it's WHERE you hit em, not WHAT you hit em with.

Yep, and also is what you are hitting them with from an appropriate range. That's the question for this thread. Can 177 hit em in the right place with enough power at a farther range than a 22 from SAME powerplant.


All good information, what barrel on the 1322?

oh sorry, the barrel length on my 1322 is 18" I'm pretty sure.  maybe 16" but I think 18"

I had a friend order a 1377 carbine from the crosman custom shop a couple years ago.  I don't remember all the specs but something like, steel breech, 16-18" barrel, stock, scope but totally stock as far as power goes - though I'm sure got a little extra from the barrel.  He never pumped it past 10 but usually used 7-8 pumps, and was was effective with squirrels with it. 

Good info, If I hunted a 1377 I'd be using 10 pumps or more, so he pushed this little gun to the minimum limit and still had success (I hope they didn't suffer). I assume that was a 10yrd shot or less at that pump level on a squirrel.

I bet he was using a 7-8gr pellet too? If I hunted with less pumps (which I would not), I would also use a lighter pellet. My 1377 does fine on mice at 5 pumps with a wadcutter.
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Offline Tweaker

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2022, 11:30:25 AM »

Good info, If I hunted a 1377 I'd be using 10 pumps or more, so he pushed this little gun to the minimum limit and still had success (I hope they didn't suffer). I assume that was a 10yrd shot or less at that pump level on a squirrel.

I bet he was using a 7-8gr pellet too? If I hunted with less pumps (which I would not), I would also use a lighter pellet. My 1377 does fine on mice at 5 pumps with a wadcutter.

Also the FPE muzzle energy figures of the 177 vs 22 can be misleading because a 177 needs less fpe for killshot due to less frontal area so a 177 at 10 FPE will penetrate much deeper than a 22 at 10 fpe. 

I going to be testing my 766 (the vintage version of 2100) on soft pine wood with a special pellet when I get it. And compare it to some other crosman/benjamin pumpers on pine. Feel free to try a similar test in your 13xx.  Penetration in killzone is what matters in the end for hunting.
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2022, 03:27:29 PM »

Good info, If I hunted a 1377 I'd be using 10 pumps or more, so he pushed this little gun to the minimum limit and still had success (I hope they didn't suffer). I assume that was a 10yrd shot or less at that pump level on a squirrel.

I bet he was using a 7-8gr pellet too? If I hunted with less pumps (which I would not), I would also use a lighter pellet. My 1377 does fine on mice at 5 pumps with a wadcutter.

Also the FPE muzzle energy figures of the 177 vs 22 can be misleading because a 177 needs less fpe for killshot due to less frontal area so a 177 at 10 FPE will penetrate much deeper than a 22 at 10 fpe. 

I going to be testing my 766 (the vintage version of 2100) on soft pine wood with a special pellet when I get it. And compare it to some other crosman/benjamin pumpers on pine. Feel free to try a similar test in your 13xx.  Penetration in killzone is what matters in the end for hunting.

What is the penetration standards for pine?

I can say, that I was surprised that the slower, heavier 22 did better on full bean cans (shot from the bottom) vs the less frontal area, faster 177 from the 13xx powerplant. I guess for metal, the heavier pellet's mass is needed to puncture from medium powered air guns? However, against a softer target, I'm not so sure. I was just figuring that was a good test for hunting because if a pellet can go into a can of beans, it should be able to do the same for a critter.

Also, my daughter has an old playhouse that she's out grown and it is made of cheap cedar or pine. The "siding" is probably 1/8 or maybe even 1/4 thick wood. My 2240 with 14.3gr pellet will punch right through from 10yrds, but my 177cal 2240 w/ same barrel length (7.5") just sticks into the wood and doesn't go through. That is with a 7.5gr wadcutter though. Maybe a pointed pellet would do better, but DEFINITELY in the stock 2240, I am convinced that 22cal is better for hunting if you had to.

Maybe I will try the 1377 at 10 pumps with the same wadcutters and see if the 10.5" barrel proves to be the minimum needed in 177 to penetrate the boards.
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2022, 01:40:23 PM »
Accidental duplicate post, mods plz delete.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 01:53:46 PM by Sh00ter »
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2022, 01:52:22 PM »
THIS article is the exact comparison we need someone to do  between a 1377 & 1322.

https://www.airgundepot.com/vault/articles/from-the-mailbag-177-vs-22-for-hunting/

It does prove the theory that the 177 has a longer effective range (from same powerplant) but the 22 is the better choice for closer shots (maybe 20yrds or less). HOWEVER, I wonder how this would be affected as you move to a lower-powered gun than used in that article? I assume the effect would be about if testing the 1377 vs 1322.

HOWEVER, I also believe there comes a point in power level (and FPS) that 22 is always the best choice for all hunting situations. Not sure what that is, but probably when 22 reaches about 900FPS or higher in muzzle velocity, it has a flat enough trajectory and velocity to penetrate just fine at even the longer ranges vs 177.

HOWEVER, our UK friends have shown that at the same mandated FPE of 12FPE max, that 177 is ALWAYS preferred. That is rarely an issue for USA hunters because in almost every case, the 22 setup would have more FPE than the 177 (such as 1377 vs 1322).

So perhaps we can conclude "generally" that from the same medium-powered power plant (13xx):

- 22 best for closer shots
- 177 better for longer shots

And for air guns in general:

- higher velocity 177 is like an ice pick (especially up close) and may over penetrate small game and not dump enough energy into the animal
- on a larger animal, a higher velocity 177 (900fps & up), 177's better penetration might actually be an advantage over a 22 from the same power plant and therefore less velocity

So if I am shooting a racoon, I might prefer my break barrel 177 over my 22 pumper due to the better penetration??? This would be negated if the 22 gun could produce near or the same FPS as the 177 gun. I already did this test and was able to see that my 177 guns that could do 800FPS or higher could out-penetrate full cans of beans vs my 2289g. If I was hitting a racoon in the body or head, I might prefer that kind of penetration. However, a comparable 22cal airgun that can do maybe 700FPS or higher changes the game and would be better than 177 in that case (a closer shot on a coon)???

But if hunting squirrels, the 22 might be the better choice except for long shots???

In conclusion, it seems to me for hunting, that in the USA, 22 is always the best choice in higher-powered guns, but are limited to close range in medium-powered guns. Only in the UK is 177 ALWAYS the better choice. In Canada, 22 is probably always the better choice.


EDIT: From the article "larger heavier calibers tend to maintain their accuracy throughout the length of their viable kill range where the smaller calibers tend to wander and become inaccurate past 25 to 30 yards."

I think this is consistent with my theory that 22 is ALWAYS better from a higher-powered airgun. The gun used in the test is more powerful than even a modified a 1322. It also doesn't mention testing heavier 177 pellets. I wonder how much of that statement above is true if using a heavier 177 pellet and if that helps to overcome the wandering?

Perhaps any airgun would do better for close range shots using a lighter pellet to control penetration and a heavier pellet to maintain accuracy & penetration at longer ranges???

Man this really is a fun thing to overthink!

EDIT: Pellet weight...In the stock 13xx platform, I find that in 177, the heavier pellets produce the best results. But in 22cal, pellets heavier than 14.3gr, tend to reduce performance due to the limited power of the gun. I am now wondering, if a lighter 22 pellet (less than 14gr) would give an advantage out of the 13xx powerplant for longer ranges when it comes to trajectory and in comparison to the 177 heavy pellet. I guess you still have the surface area issue and the lighter pellet may take more weight to have the same penetration as a 177 pellet.

The journey continues...I have also found that my NP guns prefer a lighter pellet to make the most FPE. https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/12/airgun-power-with-heavy-and-light-pellets/

Maybe it is time for a new thread on light vs heavy pellets, but my testing of the stock 1377 seems to contradict the belief that for air pistols, lighter pellets are always better???
« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 02:51:32 PM by Sh00ter »
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Offline Sh00ter

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Re: At what velocity & range is 1377 a better choice than 1322?
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2022, 03:34:31 PM »
This is an interesting post in an interesting thread...I've always heard 22 was more efficient than 177 with CO2?

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=95479.msg893633#msg893633


EDIT: Actually, he said that in this article too...but that was in regards to 22cal.

EDIT: Then he actually says the 14.5" is optimal for CO2 177cal....bummer, I already ordered a 16" but I can do my own testing and use it on the 1377 if I wish instead. So many choices...this thread is going to be a gold mine for someone later on at some point LOL.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 03:56:31 PM by Sh00ter »
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