GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: pcpvietnam on December 20, 2012, 11:25:34 AM
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Dear all,
I bought a Ninja Paintball PRO 90ci/4500psi Carbon Fiber Compressed Air Tank. But output standard max 800psi. I want change output pressure to 1.600psi.
Pls, help me.
Thanks all
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9746/imag0754g.jpg)
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The regulator spring will have to be changed out for Belleville Washers.... Here is a chart I did using my regulator, but it is really only good as a guide, regs seem to vary a lot....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Important/NinjaRegulators.jpg)
The standard Belleville stack is:
) ) () () () () ( ( ||
Bob
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The standard Belleville stack is:
) ) () () () () ( ( ||
Bob
Can you explain this a little more? I keep seeing it pop up but I don't understand it ???
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(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Important/NinjaRegulators.jpg)
And also, do you have pics of what you did to get those pressures? And what are cup washers? Sorry for all the questions
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Belleville washers are also called disc springs.... They are a shallow metal cup that flattens under load.... That diagram is showing which direction the cup is facing (the straight lines indicate flat shims).... Some Ninja regs use thinner bellevilles on the ends (0.022") but most of their regs use 0.032" for the middle ten bellevilles.... I recently saw a 2000 psi reg. that used eight 0.047" bellevilles.... so go figure....
The stack of washers replaces the coil spring inside the regulator.... It sounds like you have never had a reg apart, I suggest you do some studying, they can be dangerous.... The first thing you have to do is drain the tank to ZERO air pressure, of course....
Bob
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Belleville washers are also called disc springs.... They are a shallow metal cup that flattens under load.... That diagram is showing which direction the cup is facing (the straight lines indicate flat shims).... Some Ninja regs use thinner bellevilles on the ends (0.022") but most of their regs use 0.032" for the middle ten bellevilles.... I recently saw a 2000 psi reg. that used eight 0.047" bellevilles.... so go figure....
The stack of washers replaces the coil spring inside the regulator.... It sounds like you have never had a reg apart, I suggest you do some studying, they can be dangerous.... The first thing you have to do is drain the tank to ZERO air pressure, of course....
Bob
You are correct, I have never had a reg apart.. I have one on the way to play with and I thought I would get ahead of myself and learn how to mod it to my needs before I get it.. So what you're saying is that a certain number of washers replaces the stock coil spring??
Where can I get the correct size washers? I looked at McMasters but they have a lot of options ??? ???
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Here is the chart from their website.... sorry for the poor layout.... The thicknesses and part numbers (for stainless) are in bold....
0.317" 0.625" 0.022" 0.042" 0.010" 70 105 12 9712K65 $3.92 12 9713K65 $8.34
0.317" 0.625" 0.032" 0.048" 0.008" 145 260 12 9712K66 $3.97 12 9713K66 $6.61
0.317" 0.625" 0.047" 0.059" 0.006" 300 600 12 9712K67 $5.37 12 9713K67 $11.11
You will also need a selection of flat shims, 5/8" OD x 3/8" ID.... this link may help.... http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p (http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p)
Bob
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Here is the chart from their website.... sorry for the poor layout.... The thicknesses and part numbers (for stainless) are in bold....
0.317" 0.625" 0.022" 0.042" 0.010" 70 105 12 9712K65 $3.92 12 9713K65 $8.34
0.317" 0.625" 0.032" 0.048" 0.008" 145 260 12 9712K66 $3.97 12 9713K66 $6.61
0.317" 0.625" 0.047" 0.059" 0.006" 300 600 12 9712K67 $5.37 12 9713K67 $11.11
You will also need a selection of flat shims, 5/8" OD x 3/8" ID.... this link may help.... http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p (http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p)
Bob
So there is no "standard" stack of washers to get to a certain psi? It is all trial and error?
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There are several "standard" stacks that work, have a look at my graph.... If you want 1600 psi, you could use twelve 0.032" bellevilles and about 0.020" of shims.... or ten 0.032" with an 0.022" on each end and about 0.040" of shims.... or ten 0.032" with a 0.022" on one end and about 0.060" of shims....
Understand that the actual shim thickness you need will vary depending on the actual stiffness of the bellevilles you get.... It becomes a trial and error deal for the fine tuning.... Also, your regulator will have a 1.8K burst disc on the downstream side.... If you get too close to 1800 psi you will blow that disc and I guarantee it will scare the he!! out of you.... 1600 psi is pushing it with a 1.8K disc.... You can replace it with a 3K burst disc, but that may be too high to protect the gun in the event of a regulator failure.... Have you made sure the gun you plan on using it on is safe at 1600 psi?....
Bob
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There are several "standard" stacks that work, have a look at my graph.... If you want 1600 psi, you could use twelve 0.032" bellevilles and about 0.020" of shims.... or ten 0.032" with an 0.022" on each end and about 0.040" of shims.... or ten 0.032" with a 0.022" on one end and about 0.060" of shims....
Understand that the actual shim thickness you need will vary depending on the actual stiffness of the bellevilles you get.... It becomes a trial and error deal for the fine tuning.... Also, your regulator will have a 1.8K burst disc on the downstream side.... If you get too close to 1800 psi you will blow that disc and I guarantee it will scare the he!! out of you.... 1600 psi is pushing it with a 1.8K disc.... You can replace it with a 3K burst disc, but that may be too high to protect the gun in the event of a regulator failure.... Have you made sure the gun you plan on using it on is safe at 1600 psi?....
Bob
Yes, I am planning to use mine on my Disco while out in the field.. So I am wanting a 2,000 psi output, I will have to change the burst disc
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Since you will be watching the gauge on the gun during filling, that should be OK.... If you were tethering while shooting and had a regulator failure, then 3000 psi into the gun would be possible.... Unlikely to cause a catastrophic failure if the valve screws are in good shape.... but pushing it....
Bob
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Since you will be watching the gauge on the gun during filling, that should be OK.... If you were tethering while shooting and had a regulator failure, then 3000 psi into the gun would be possible.... Unlikely to cause a catastrophic failure if the valve screws are in good shape.... but pushing it....
Bob
Thanks for the info Bob.. I am sure I will be needing more of your help when the time comes ::) ::)
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Can I add a question here ?
I recently acquired one of the Benjamin 72cu in bottles with a 2k regulator attached.
+ I wish to make the Reg INOPERATIVE so 3K in is 3K out so I can have a field fill bottle for my M-rod.
Can this be done and done safely ?
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Yes you can.... Drain the bottle completely, remove the bonnet of the regulator, and fit either solid shims or a spacer to hold the piston off the seat so that the air pressure on the output side will not cause the piston to seal.... The pin valve will still keep the air from leaking out, and provided your fill system allows you to operate that pin valve, and bleed the air hose to your MRod, you should be good to go....
Note, however, that many of the ASA adapters that are designed for CO2 pressures will not operate at 3000 psi, the loads on the valve may cause it to lock up and you can't turn it off.... Some might even be unsafe.... Any complete filling system for PCPs requires fittings and hoses of at least a 3000 psi safe operating pressure, including a fill valve that will operate at that pressure (both on AND off), and some way to bleed the air in the hose so that the female Foster fitting can be removed safely from the gun....
Bob
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The regulator spring will have to be changed out for Belleville Washers.... Here is a chart I did using my regulator, but it is really only good as a guide, regs seem to vary a lot....
The standard Belleville stack is:
) ) () () () () ( ( ||
Bob
Thanks for the infor Bob, i will handdo as your guide, and I am sure I will be needing more of your help when the time comes.
But, made sure the regulator plan on using it on is safe at 1600 psi?....
Thank Bob again
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All the Ninja regulator bodies I have seen are identical from 850 psi to 2500....
Bob
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All the Ninja regulator bodies I have seen are identical from 850 psi to 2500....
Bob
Thank Bob
I will start hand do pcp air gun homemade at tomorrow, and will post picture when finish.
Thank again
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Here is the chart from their website.... sorry for the poor layout.... The thicknesses and part numbers (for stainless) are in bold....
0.317" 0.625" 0.022" 0.042" 0.010" 70 105 12 9712K65 $3.92 12 9713K65 $8.34
0.317" 0.625" 0.032" 0.048" 0.008" 145 260 12 9712K66 $3.97 12 9713K66 $6.61
0.317" 0.625" 0.047" 0.059" 0.006" 300 600 12 9712K67 $5.37 12 9713K67 $11.11
You will also need a selection of flat shims, 5/8" OD x 3/8" ID.... this link may help.... http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p (http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p)
Bob
Bob,
I plan on ordering some of these for a future regulator project and plan on fine tuning the regulator to fill my Maurader.
There is another way that can sometimes work without ordering additional belleville washers. The 48ci paintball tank that I got of eBay came with a regulator set to about 800psi output. It came with belleville washers in the generic regulator. I was going to use it to charge my B50 rifle and needed 1600 psi. I rearranged the belleville washers in a series-parallel combination in order to increase the spring rate. And then used some SS washers from the hardware store to shim it.
I ended up with 1630psi output. It did reduce the total throw of the belleville stack but it still seems to work OK.
The following link has some easy to understand info on calculating the spring rates for belleville washer stacks:
http://springipedia.com/belleville-washers-stacking.asp (http://springipedia.com/belleville-washers-stacking.asp)
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I've seen that link before.... I would advise caution when mixing different numbers of Belleville washers in a stack.... One of the diagrams in that article shows a stack containing 2, 1, 3, and 2 bellevilles.... I realize it's just for the purpose of showing how to calculate the spring rate.... but assuming all the bellevilles are the same rate/thickness, by the time the stack of 3 has moved very far, the single belleville will have gone flat and likely even reversed, damaging it.... I've seen that happen in regulators.... I would recommend that you use either all singles, all doubles, etc, to prevent this from happening.... The exception would be what Ninja do by adding an extra belleville washer to one or both ends.... Since the majority of the stack are singles, it acts like a stack of singles but stiffer at the ends.... so no damage can occur.... If what Scotchmo did was rearrange all the bellevilles in pairs and then shim the end, that would be a good solution.... eg:
going from this.... ) () () () () ( .... to this.... )) (( )) (( )) |||| ....
would double the flat load, give four times the spring rate, and cut the travel in half.... It would require about 0.12" of shims to take up the vacant space.... It would be better to add another two pairs of bellevilles to end up with this.... )) (( )) (( )) (( )) .... The rate would be 2.86 times the original, the flat load still double, and the travel 7/10ths.... It would be easier to adjust.... Of course it would require more bellevilles....
Bob
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Bob,
That is exactly what I did:
went from this.... ) () () () () ( ....
to this.... )) (( )) (( )) |||| ....
It works Ok and gives 1630psi but seems a little sticky some times. I just ordered a dozen of the .032 and .047 belleville washers as well as some .002 and .010 shims. Also some Krytox 205 to lubricate the piston and orings. I hope to get it set for a more precise 1600psi.
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I received the belleville washers and tried various combinations in my generic regulator (Ninja clone).
I ended up going with something similar to what Bob suggested:
) ) () () () () ( ( |||
.032, .032, .032, .032, .032, .032, .032, .032, .032, .032, .032, .032, .01, .01, .01
Mine needed an extra .01 shim to get close to the 1600psi. I tried fine tuning it with .002 shims but the act of taking apart and putting together often caused more variation than the shim. I guess getting within 50-100psi of the desired set point is good enough.
Here is what I ended up with (there was some creep):
1700psi in bottle = 1530psi from regulator
2000psi in bottle = 1570psi from regulator
2400psi in bottle = 1590psi from regulator
I estimate that I will get about 1630-1650psi output from a 3000psi fill.
Bob's suggested stack is a good starting point.
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Glad it worked out for you....
Bob
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rough guess on a stack for 2900- 3100 psi, would save me a bunch of pumping.
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Use the 0.047" Bellevilles, either 8 or 9 of them, in series.... If you use 8 there is lots of room for shims, with 9, not very much....
) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
Piston to the right, reg. body to the left if you use 9....
Bob
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I've thought about making me a reg tester for the Ninja 13ci bottle, Hajimoto did a youtube video on how to do it at a reasonable price.
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Any reason you couldn't use one of these stacked for ~3000 PSI for a buddy bottle fill setup? My main concern would be the fast fill. But they can be had for ~$175 and I already have the microbore hose... Surely I am missing something.
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got a new 68 ninja with the regulator and the Ninja Micro Bore Remote Line w/ Slide Check for $200
plenty of shot for me if im going out.
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The ASA pin valves we used to open regulators tend to be ON or OFF, and quite difficult to control to do a slow fill.... so, yes, setting up a regulator to 3000 psi to fill bottles from a 4500 psi tank will work, but if you aren't careful they do fill very fast....
Slide check valves are made for CO2 pressures, I have destroyed quite a few even at 1200 psi.... The O-ring blows out....
Bob
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well cow pies(love the sesame street level censorship ;D ), i guess when they put 4500 working pressure in the description, they didnt expect any paintballers to actually do it.
wanted something portable sleek without much protrusions like an omega 12 tank. gonna look for something small and inline to vent the line.
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Ninja may have a new-fangled slide-check that will live at 4500 psi.... but I've never seen one....
Bob
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Ninja may have a new-fangled slide-check that will live at 4500 psi.... but I've never seen one....
Bob
Yeah, I'd have to add a release valve to it somehow. This and the ultra fast fill don't give me a good feeling. I think I'll forget about this and just pick up one of the buddy bottle fill stations when they go on sale.
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hand pumped this 13 cu ft? tank to 2800 psi, alternating between chinese and benjamin pumps. benjamin gave it up at 2000 psi. worked, once. the check valve died second fill. un screwed the valve and still hemorrhaging air. it ate the valve seat where the ball is on the valve.
lost oh idunno 800 pumps in 10 seconds heh.
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This thread seems like a good place for various bellville stacks and setpoints so I'll ask here...
I am looking for a stack of bellvilles that will yield at minimum 2000, at max 2500 psi. All I have access to are .022 and .032 bellvilles and shims.
Is it possible?
Thank you in advance.
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If you are talking Ninja regulators, the only stacks that will provide 2000-2500 psi are a single stack of 0.047" thick Bellevilles (Reply #23 above).... or a stack of paired 0.032" Bellevilles, like this....
)) (( )) (( )) ((
The 0.032" Bellevilles are rated at 260 lbs. flat load (so a pair is 520 lbs.) and a single 0.047" has a flat load of 600 lbs.... Either arrangement can be used from under 2000 psi to over 3000.... depending on the shim stack used.... The thinner 0.022" Bellevilles only require 105 lbs. to be driven flat.... so not suitable, even if paired with the 0.032" (105 + 260 = 365 lbs.), to get to 2500 psi....
Bob
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Thank you Mr Sterne. I found one of your posts on another forum that helped. From way back in 2010. the only difference is when I used .054 shim as the post mentioned I never found the setpoint before blowing a 3k burst disc. I used .022 shim and ended up right at 2200psi. If it proves to be unstable I'll try one of those suggested above.
Copied and pasted from your post on Airgunhome:
First of all, it is necessary to explain what was inside the 2000 psi regulator.... When I pulled it apart, I discovered that there were two different thicknesses of shims and two different thicknesses of Belleville Washers (also known as Disc Springs).... The shims were in a stack in the bottom of the regulator housing.... In my regulator, there were two 0.005" shims and two 0.022" shims.... totalling 0.054" of shims.... My regulator was basically right at 2000 psi when checked with a gauge from a Hill pump which has 100 psi increments.... Cool
The disc springs which were on the stem of the piston consisted of a 0.022" thick disc spring on each end, and a total of ten 0.032" thick disc springs arranged in a "single stack" arrangement.... The total stack looked like this:
|| || ) ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( (
Link to the post: http://www.airgunhome.com/agforum/viewtopic.php?t=4564 (http://www.airgunhome.com/agforum/viewtopic.php?t=4564)
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I have never been able to get to 2500 psi, which was one of your goals, using any 0.022" Bellevilles.... Once you drive the Belleville washers flat (the equivalent of coil bind on a spring).... the regulator cannot close, so it will pass the tank pressure through to the outlet, blowing the 3K burst disc.... The Belleville washers OPEN the seat in the regulator, the air pressure on the outlet side of the piston CLOSES it.... When they are in balance, you have reached your setpoint pressure.... If the Bellevilles go flat before the seat closes (coil bind), it would take infinite pressure to oppose that, so you get tank pressure straight through to the outlet.... and POP goes the disc.... To achieve a higher output pressure, you need Bellevilles that take more load to compress them to flat.... Adding more Bellevilles (or pairs of Bellevilles) in series only increases the travel of the piston, and decreases the sensitivity to shimming, making it easier to adjust your setpoint....
Bob
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Again, thank you for your guidance.
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they said the green will just keep pushing out above 1400 psi. i gave the ball a couple good smacks with a hammer into the bonnet and its holding air for now. it also can better control the fill speed.
9 .47 washers and a .01 flat washer got me to 2700 psi. to change that would be 1500 pumps so its gonna stay at 2700 for a while.
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Hi, I'm just curious if you just add shims or a washer with the spring if that would work? I just want my reg to be at about 1400psi. This is the Bellville washers I can get (attached picture). Which ones will work? I'm from South Africa and we use the metric system and I need your help because all the values converted are in between our sizes.
Thanx ;D
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Hi, I'm just curious if you just add shims or a washer with the spring if that would work? I just want my reg to be at about 1400psi. This is the Bellville washers I can get (attached picture). Which ones will work? I'm from South Africa and we use the metric system and I need your help because all the values converted are in between our sizes.
Thanx ;D
Hello,i am metric ;D
You need 16mm ext dia. 8,2mm int dia. ,so i see two choices, 0,6 or 0,9mm thickness.Maybe single stacked 0,9mm's can work for you,i think.Some doubled 0,6mm arrangement can work too,better to wait for a true expert.
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In inches, you want 0.625" OD, 0.3125" ID, 0.032" thick.
which in metric equates to 15.88mm OD, 7.94mm ID, 0.81mm thick
Closest match in the chart is the 16,0 8,2 0,9
Its 50% deflection rating is a pretty close match (157lbs vs 142lbs).
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[quote ....
Slide check valves are made for CO2 pressures, I have destroyed quite a few even at 1200 psi.... The O-ring blows out....
Bob
[/quote]
I recently purchased a coiled hose fill setup with side check, rated @ 4500 PSI, I only run it at 3000 with no issues as of yet.
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Nice to know they are now available for HPA.... a link to your source would be helpful....
Bob
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if youre quick in a twisting motion it doesnt seem to eat the oring. i tried to solder a 28g needle into the hole it has to jump but the aluminum sucked up all the heat and was too lazy to break out the torch. ended up getting the ez fill and stop playin around. wasnt so easy, its leaking out the hose end.........
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Nice to know they are now available for HPA.... a link to your source would be helpful....
Bob
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EIVBYTC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EIVBYTC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
;D
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Unless I misunderstand that Ad.... that slide check is intended for a Paintball marker, which would be fed from a regulator set to roughly CO2 pressures.... and certainly protected with a 1.8K burst disc on the output side.... as you would always use on a Paintball gun.... The "system" pressure is 3000 or 4500 psi.... but the working pressure would normally be about 850 psi.... JMO, and if you are using one at 3000 psi, I'm glad it's working for you....
Bob
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Unless I misunderstand that Ad.... that slide check is intended for a Paintball marker, which would be fed from a regulator set to roughly CO2 pressures.... and certainly protected with a 1.8K burst disc on the output side.... as you would always use on a Paintball gun.... The "system" pressure is 3000 or 4500 psi.... but the working pressure would normally be about 850 psi.... JMO, and if you are using one at 3000 psi, I'm glad it's working for you....
Bob
that's correct Bob.
I used a similar hose when I played PB. the hose in the ad should only be subjected to the PB reg pressure of about 800-850psi max. anything higher and you will very likely see a catastrophic hose failure.
Also, there's no bleeder valve. must be a PITA to disconnect after filling.
kgb
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I think most slide-checks are "self-bleeding", at least the ones I had were.... That was the problem, when the vent hole slid past the O-ring it blew out at much over about 1100 psi.... I gave up on them for that reason.... I had a coil-hose blow at 3000 psi, even though it was rated at that (stamped right on the side)…. scared the …. out of me....
Bob
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I think most slide-checks are "self-bleeding", at least the ones I had were.... That was the problem, when the vent hole slid past the O-ring it blew out at much over about 1100 psi.... I gave up on them for that reason.... I had a coil-hose blow at 3000 psi, even though it was rated at that (stamped right on the side)…. scared the …. out of me....
Bob
If these slide checks aren't reliable at the 1200-1500 psi that people are going to be using them at to adjust the Ninja reg, what's the best way to measure the reg output?
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I have never used one, but Tim @ Mac1 Airguns sells this unit, with a slide check, and says it is good to 2000 psi....
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/reoute.htm (http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/reoute.htm)
You do need some way to bleed off the pressure downstream of the regulator, I made a bleed valve like this....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Flying%20Dragon%20PCP/IMG_4338800x401_zps50031afc.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Flying%20Dragon%20PCP/IMG_4338800x401_zps50031afc.jpg.html)
There is a Foster on the end of the flex hose where I attach my gauge.... I also use a "tiny" tank so that I don't waste air when testing.... You can see it in the middle of this photo with the regulator attached....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Discovery/FillStationandTestRig.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Discovery/FillStationandTestRig.jpg.html)
Bob
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I was thinking I may be getting by due to the fact I am using it on a retrofitted air force pistol bottle. By the time I top off the pressure is much lower than 3000.
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Bob,
I would love to get a "tiny" air tank like you use. Can you tell me where you got it? I assume it will hold 3000psi?
Thanks,
Fernando
I also use a "tiny" tank so that I don't waste air when testing.... You can see it in the middle of this photo with the regulator attached....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Discovery/FillStationandTestRig.jpg)
Bob
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I made it.... a piece of 1" diam. CRS drilled and tapped 5/8"-18NF that the regulator can thread into.... with a small recess for the O-ring to fit into and seal....
Bob
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Awesome! Sent you a PM.
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FYI, I don't make parts or guns for anyone else.... no time....
Bob
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Just to give my perspective, it’s fairly easy to make one with simple tools. In other words, it doesn’t require a mill or lathe. I used a rectangular block of aluminum. The drilling and tapping is straightforward. The only thing that took some creativity was making a groove for the O-ring. I managed to use a carbide router bit (an ogee profile, if memory serves). It has a removable ball bearing guide that I swapped out temporarily for a stack of washers so it would cut a recess just the right diameter to capture the O-ring on the underside of the regulator body. In other words, the original ball bearing is sized so the bit will cut a narrow shoulder. It needed to be somewhat wider to accept the O-ring so I improvised a smaller diameter bearing out of a stack of washers so it would plow a wider groove. It worked beautifully. You wouldn’t know it wasn’t made on a CNC mill if I didn’t tell you.
If you were to do something similar, the best order of operations is:
1. Drill
2. Cut the O-ring groove
3. Tap
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So, how long are your tanks? How deep did you drill, and how deep did you tap? Also, how deep/wide does the O-ring groove need to be?
Thanks for the tips, guys!
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Copy the O-ring groove from a tank the regulator fits.... You only need to drill and tap a bit deeper than the threaded shank of the regulator.... I drilled in about 3", but if I were making another one would only drill in about 2" and then tap deep enough that the regulator would screw in easily by hand all the way without any O-ring in place.... You don't need any "volume" to test a regulator, all you are doing is sealing the bottom of the regulator.... Make sure the wall thickness of the "tiny tank" is enough for it to withstand 11,000 psi (for a 3000 psi reg.) or 16,000 psi (for a 4,500 psi one)…. So that you have at least a 3.5:1 safety margin....
Bob
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Thank you for this thread and the information in it.
I used this information to reset the output pressure on a ninja hpa tank. It came from the factory at just over 700 psi out of the regulator. This was with a spring and three shims.
Replacing the spring with a belleville stack yielded the following pressures:
) = .022
) = .032
| = Shims that came with the Ninja regulator
) ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ( | = 1100 PSI
) ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ( | | = 1300 PSI
) ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ( | | | = 1500 PSI
This is close to Bob's chart (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=40074.msg374168#msg374168)on page 1 (if I am reading it correctly). It is a little higher, but in line with the progressions he charted.
Make sure the wall thickness of the "tiny tank" is enough for it to withstand 11,000 psi (for a 3000 psi reg.) or 16,000 psi (for a 4,500 psi one)…. So that you have at least a 3.5:1 safety margin....
I picked up one of the lathes out of the $368 lathe thread (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=146952.0), and am liking the look of the tiny tank. It looks like a good project to play with. A section of cold rolled steel bar would allow me to mess up a few times without it being too expensive.
So, if I understand this 3.5:1 safety margin (thinking about Bob's tiny tank), one would need to make sure the walls of the tank are thick enough to stand 16,000 psi. (4500 x 3.5 = 15750, rounded up to 16,000)
How does one go about finding this information? I assume there are base figures from the manufacture that give a pressure rating per x of thickness. I cannot seem to figure out the correct search query either here or on Google to find this information. I assume it is because I am missing a specialized term (or terms) to search for. (or maybe I am missing something painfully obvious?)
If someone has a direct answer, that is great, but I would like to understand enough to hunt down my own answers.
My background is carpentry and farming. Metal work (other than rough welding) is all new to me.
So, educational sites? Proper search terms? Threads here on GTA to read?
Thank You,
Cody
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Use Barlow's formula to determine burst pressure.... Here is a calculator....
http://www.worldwidepipe.com/barlows-formula.html (http://www.worldwidepipe.com/barlows-formula.html)
Enter the OD (1") and the wall thickness (for a 5/8" thread use that for the ID, so use 0.187" (don't enter the pressure, you want to calculate that).... You can use either the yield strength (point to where it stretches) or the tensile strength (where it ruptures) of the material used for the Allowable Stress.... Most CRS round bar is 1018 grade, but you can ask when you buy it.... Here are the specs. for 1018....
https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115 (https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6115)
Let's use the yield strength to be conservative, which is 53,700 psi.... Enter those 3 numbers in the calculator, and you get 20,083 psi for the maximum pressure.... That is well above the 16,000 needed, so as long as you use 1018 with a 1" OD, you can be comfortable with the hoop strength of the tubing wall.... Leave the end (beyond the point of the drilled hole) at least twice that thick (3/8") and you should be OK for strength.... providing the threads are within allowable specs (if you drill the right size, and use a good tap, they should be fine)….
Bob
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Thank you Bob. That helps a lot.
I was able to follow all of that except for one thing. What is the 53,700 yield strength based on? Is there an industry standard like 'all pressure strength calculations are based on 0.5 inches of new material at sea level' or something of this nature?
Thank You,
Cody
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No, the tensile strength (ultimate and yield) is the force per square inch of cross section required to make the material fail (ultimate) or stretch (yield in a non-elastic manner).... If the yield strength is 53,700 psi, that means if you have a 1 inch square bar of 1018 steel, and you clamp one end and hang 53,700 lbs. of weight on the other, it should start to stretch, and when the load is removed not return to its original length.... ie it "yields"....
In theory, if you hang less than 53,700 lbs. on it (and the material behaves as it should), it should spring back to its original length when the load is removed.... ie elastic deformation.... Each material will have a different "ultimate" and "yield" strength....
Bob
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Okay. That makes sense.
So metal fatigue in this scenario would be a weight less than the ultimate or yield weights that eventually erodes or overwhelms (via force applied over the passage of time) the material's ability to spring back into its original shape?
Thank you for your time and knowledge.
Cody
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Metal fatigue is caused by repeated cycling, and with steel it is not an issue providing the stress applied is less than 50% of the yield strength.... Since you are designing with over a 4:1 safety margin, there is no possibility of fatigue lowering the tensile strength to the point of failure, even with an infinite number of cycles.... This is the advantage of designing with such large safety margins....
Bob
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Ok so this sounds like a real cool idea , so I got a Ninja 68 c.i. Carbon fiber tank with a Pro V2 regulator . I want to take the pressure up to 2700 - 2800 psi , for use refueling my Marauder .25 and Quackenbush .45 , in the field . The problem is the upstream burst disc . Obviously the 1800 psi one has to go , but as high as I'm going 3000 psi isn't enough and I cant find 3500 anywhere . Will 4000psi be to high ?
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The Pro V2 regulator, from what I remember, is the one with the rotating feature on the bonnet, is it not?.... Ninja have stated that style of regulator, since the bonnet is retained only by a snap ring instead of threads, should not have the output burst disc replaced with one higher than the 1800 psi one fitted by Ninja.... To answer your question, the "unified burst discs" used on HPA tanks and regulators only come in 1800, 3000, 5000 and 7500 psi ratings.... Sometimes in England you can find a 4500 psi rating.... but I have never heard of 3500 or 4000 psi burst discs....
Bob
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Yes the Ninja Pro V 2 IS the one that top rotates on . So it seems I bought the wrong regulator , I found a couple 3500 burst discs on scuba web sites even found a 3700 on ebay But I dont know what size the hole in the regulator is ( still waiting for the brown truck to bring it ) Ninja makes one that has an output of 3000 , they use a 5000 disc but that would be bad news for my guns if I have a failure .
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Burst discs are made for 5/3rd the working pressure of a tank, which is the Hydrotest pressure.... AFAIK, SCUBA burst discs are replacable discs, and the holder for them is completely different than HPA unified discs.... The HPA burst discs are 3/8"-24 straight thread, and the disc seals on the copper end.... the holes in the regulator for them are NOT 1/8"-27 NPT pipe threads, although they look similar....
Bob
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Bob , THANK YOU , for the information . I have no doubt that you saved me from having an accident , that IF I survived , my wife would have demanded that my glorified bb guns , as she calls them , had to go . she'd do that anyway IF she knew what they really cost .
Wish there was mention at the beginning of this thread NOT TO USE A NINJA V2 . would have saved me from buying one . Because if it hadn't been for having to ask about burst disc's , I would have followed the instructions and powered up the V2 and we all know how that would have ended .
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Well, snap rings are actually capable of handling a large shear load.... but I do remember asking Ninja, and they nixed the idea of increasing the output burst disc....
Bob
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I have never used one, but Tim @ Mac1 Airguns sells this unit, with a slide check, and says it is good to 2000 psi....
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/reoute.htm (http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/reoute.htm)
You do need some way to bleed off the pressure downstream of the regulator, I made a bleed valve like this....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Flying%20Dragon%20PCP/IMG_4338800x401_zps50031afc.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Flying%20Dragon%20PCP/IMG_4338800x401_zps50031afc.jpg.html)
There is a Foster on the end of the flex hose where I attach my gauge.... I also use a "tiny" tank so that I don't waste air when testing.... You can see it in the middle of this photo with the regulator attached....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Discovery/FillStationandTestRig.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Discovery/FillStationandTestRig.jpg.html)
Bob
Bob. I like your attachment of the scuba yoke fill adapter to the "paintball" tank valve, and have been thinking about doing something exactly like that. What is the connection in between? did you machine a flat disk w/ o ring to 1/8 npt to fit into the paintball valve?
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That was an interim setup because I didn't know how to build a bleed valve at the time, so I used the bleed valve in the SCUBA yoke.... The adapter was turned from a piece of aluminum bar, with an O-ring like on a SCUBA valve on one end, and a 1/8" NPT tapped hole on the side, with a pipe nipple between than and the ASA valve.... The knob on the SCUBA yoke tightened against a dimple in the other end of the aluminum bar.... It's big and bulky compared to just fitting a bleed valve to the side of an ASA valve like in the photo above it....
The "tiny tank" need be nothing more than a piece of steel or aluminum drilled and tapped either 5/8"-18NF or 18mm x 1.5mm (depending on the regulator threads) and with a recess to hold the appropriate sized O-ring.... The remaining wall thickness must be strong enough to withstand tank pressure with a 3:1 minimum safety margin, of course.... I actually use my "tiny tanks" when tuning a regulated PCP so that I don't have to dump all the HPA in a large tank during the process....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/6mm%20Sporter/Regulated%20for%20Testing_zpsozzbopsf.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/6mm%20Sporter/Regulated%20for%20Testing_zpsozzbopsf.jpg.html)
The digital gauge allows for measuring the pressure drop in the plenum accurately during tuning to determine the efficiency.... There is a check valve in the male foster, and a bleed valve, in the mounting block for the digital gauge....
Bob
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OK, so I'm not sure this is directly related, but I will post anyway. I recently bought a 48ci ninja 3000/800 hpa bottle. My plan was to use it as a cheap source of spare air for refilling my 13ci 3000/1500 bottles in the field (yes, very limited refills I know). I shimmed the regulator with just one belville washer which brought the output up to full psi (3000). I use an asa valve on the 48ci bottle coupled directly to a slide check to release pressure then to a standard foster fitting to fill the 13ci tank on the gun. Problem is after making a couple fills, the small oring in the top of the 48ci bottle valve blows out making it impossible to shut off the air after I make a fill to my smaller bottle.
I know this is an unusual way to try and fill in the field, but I don't want to buy a $300 4500 psi fill tank if I dont have to. Any ideas on how to make this work? Or any other inexpensive ways to refill a small 3000/1500 psi bottle in the field? Please..I understand the inefficiency of filling a depleted 3000 psi bottle from another 3000 psi bottle of only somewhat larger size. I'm just playing and trying to find a way to leave the pump at home when I'm ground squirrel hunting.
Thanks
Troy
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Using an ASA valve at 3000 psi is not advised.... They are designed for 850 psi, and at much over about 1200, they get VERY difficult to shut off.... I would imagine that is what is blowing your O-ring out.... The proper way would be to replace the regulator on your 48 CI tank with a valve equipped with a bleed valve so that after filling your 13 CI tank, you close the valve on the 48 CI tank, and use the bleed valve to bleed the air from the hose connecting the two.... That will enable you to safely disconnect the female Foster from your 13 CI tank....
Joe Brancato may be able to supply you with a valve to fit the 48 CI tank (it should have 5/8"-18 NF threads)…. You could also try Best Fittings in England.... Here is an example, you can also get the same kit with gauge for a bit more money....
https://www.bestfittings.co.uk/shop/airgun-charging-equipment/cylinder-accessories/mini-cylinder-vale-assembly-day-tripper-valve/ (https://www.bestfittings.co.uk/shop/airgun-charging-equipment/cylinder-accessories/mini-cylinder-vale-assembly-day-tripper-valve/)
Bob
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I figured there was a good reason why other guys weren't already doing this. Guess I'll have to find another way.
Thank you Bob!
Troy
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I have done that but used a 2000 psi out put pressure, in my case I put the reg and valve with coil hose and side check on an Air Force Escape bottle, then coupled to the bottle on the Escape. This psi matched the sweet spot on my tune and gives me 2 x the air for more shots in the sweet spot.
https://www.amazon.com/4500PSI-Regulator-Pressure-2000PSI-paintball/dp/B06XBV3GRP (https://www.amazon.com/4500PSI-Regulator-Pressure-2000PSI-paintball/dp/B06XBV3GRP)
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James. At 2000 psi output, is the ASA valve hard to turn off?
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It depends entirely on the ASA, mostly on the diameter of the stem where the O-ring is on the handle.... The bigger that is, the harder it is to turn.... I have had ASA valve that were difficult at 1200 psi, and others that were (barely) acceptable at 2000 psi.... Used as an "on-off" valve, the way they are intended, is entirely different than trying to get fine control when filling a gun without danger of overfilling it.... Having a valve that is hard to shut off, and difficult to modulate, is the LAST thing you want....
Bob
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I use the valve in a teather situation, so I shoot it down to a lower pressure before closing the valve.
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Thank you Mr Sterne. I found one of your posts on another forum that helped. From way back in 2010. the only difference is when I used .054 shim as the post mentioned I never found the setpoint before blowing a 3k burst disc. I used .022 shim and ended up right at 2200psi. If it proves to be unstable I'll try one of those suggested above.
Copied and pasted from your post on Airgunhome:
First of all, it is necessary to explain what was inside the 2000 psi regulator.... When I pulled it apart, I discovered that there were two different thicknesses of shims and two different thicknesses of Belleville Washers (also known as Disc Springs).... The shims were in a stack in the bottom of the regulator housing.... In my regulator, there were two 0.005" shims and two 0.022" shims.... totalling 0.054" of shims.... My regulator was basically right at 2000 psi when checked with a gauge from a Hill pump which has 100 psi increments.... Cool
The disc springs which were on the stem of the piston consisted of a 0.022" thick disc spring on each end, and a total of ten 0.032" thick disc springs arranged in a "single stack" arrangement.... The total stack looked like this:
|| || ) ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( (
Link to the post: http://www.airgunhome.com/agforum/viewtopic.php?t=4564 (http://www.airgunhome.com/agforum/viewtopic.php?t=4564)
Bumping this one back to the top. I used this stack again today when setting up a 500cc carbon bottle from Aliexpress. This time it required .066 of shim to achieve 2200psi.
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Just saying thank-you for an old thread. I recently purchased a bunch of ninja regs, top hats, shims, Belville's, package deal. I wanted to convert one reg back to 800-850psi output, to use for a SBR auto-BB gun. This thread had everything needed to do that. I do have to wait on some 1.8k burst disks to test it.
Anyway, thanks to Bob for producing it and GTA for keeping the old information available.
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John, if your regulator pistons have the little 4mm plastic ball on the end, PM me your address so I can put a few Delrin replacements in an envelope for you. The OEM part is nylon and tends to wear or take a compression set before too long which leads to pressure creep. I have more than I need and would rather they be put to good use.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=179050 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=179050)
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John, if your regulator pistons have the little 4mm plastic ball on the end, PM me your address so I can put a few Delrin replacements in an envelope for you. The OEM part is nylon and tends to wear or take a compression set before too long which leads to pressure creep. I have more than I need and would rather they be put to good use.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=179050 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=179050)
Thank-you very much for the info and the delrin balls. :)
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I received the burst disks today. Aired up, and it is right where Bob estimated it would be, 800psi. :) The next time I degas, will add a 0.005" shim to get to 850psi.
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Note, swapping out the softer nylon ball with Delrin will very likely drop the setpoint slightly. I won’t hazard a guess as to how much but I would start with an extra 0.005” shim.
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Note, swapping out the softer nylon ball with Delrin will very likely drop the setpoint slightly. I won’t hazard a guess as to how much but I would start with an extra 0.005” shim.
Thx, I have 0.010" shims, so will go with one of those.
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Jason
I am NOT sure this reg creep info,
Does it mean that the pressure goes and or down during reg creep?
I have had problems with a well used Ninja reg holding a uniform pressure, with variations in pressure,
seen during testing etc.
Thank you,
Don
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Hi Don, creep will always manifest as a gradual increase of pressure in the plenum. It’s caused by the valve seat coming together and almost sealing but not quite completely. Air molecules continue to slowly migrate through microscopic imperfections (scratches, machining marks, etc.) until it finally climbs high enough to squish the seal fully closed. Depending on the severity of it and how the hammer spring tension is dialed in, it may cause the first shot to have a higher velocity, a lower velocity, or no noticeable difference whatsoever.
There really should never be a meaningful pressure _drop_ in the plenum. For example, if there is a considerable drop in temperature, the pressure will fall and the regulator’s valve seat will respond by opening up and topping off the pressure. It’s not 100% perfect—there’s some hysteresis—but it seems to be a close enough approximation in my experience.
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Note, swapping out the softer nylon ball with Delrin will very likely drop the setpoint slightly. I won’t hazard a guess as to how much but I would start with an extra 0.005” shim.
With the ball change and 0.010” shim, output was right at 900psi. :)