Quote from: Bayman on May 06, 2021, 05:03:19 PMQuote from: nced on May 06, 2021, 01:06:41 PMOK, I'll order a new 77011834 spring and cut a spring guide plus top hat for it and report the results! I currently have a .177 R9 that isn't being used for the test so perhaps I'm "off the mark" concerning the newer offerings!Good for you Ed glad to see you're open minded. I will say that the 118 wire is pretty thin. The factory springs are thicker and have a larger OD. Maybe try stepping up the thickness and diameter since you are making up new guides. A phone call to Tom at Vortek might be helpful. Perhaps those spring don't last long when they're smaller and thinner than factory. Maybe the issue is the spring choice isn't correct for the application?? Didn't Kirk build a 95 around a Vortek spring? Maybe find out which one he used and how's working out? Well I want to thank you for being a good sport and being open minded.Be well my friend. Just placed and order for this............http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/index.php?route=product/product&path=64_66&product_id=292120 Wire Spring 780 OD with 35 coils specified.
Quote from: nced on May 06, 2021, 01:06:41 PMOK, I'll order a new 77011834 spring and cut a spring guide plus top hat for it and report the results! I currently have a .177 R9 that isn't being used for the test so perhaps I'm "off the mark" concerning the newer offerings!Good for you Ed glad to see you're open minded. I will say that the 118 wire is pretty thin. The factory springs are thicker and have a larger OD. Maybe try stepping up the thickness and diameter since you are making up new guides. A phone call to Tom at Vortek might be helpful. Perhaps those spring don't last long when they're smaller and thinner than factory. Maybe the issue is the spring choice isn't correct for the application?? Didn't Kirk build a 95 around a Vortek spring? Maybe find out which one he used and how's working out? Well I want to thank you for being a good sport and being open minded.Be well my friend.
OK, I'll order a new 77011834 spring and cut a spring guide plus top hat for it and report the results! I currently have a .177 R9 that isn't being used for the test so perhaps I'm "off the mark" concerning the newer offerings!
This is just a “Learning Novice” recent experience with a Vortek PG2 kit my HW35. The wire size is definitely thinner than OEM or ARH: At just under 3 brown boxes of Crossman Premier Dome 7.9 pellets (1250 per box, about 16 months of use), POI inconsistency made me suspect that the Vortek spring was broken. Disassembly revealed a broken spring and a pristine piston seal. My first broken spring. I had purchased both the Vortek PG2 and ARH kits in July of 2019 and decided to install the Vortek because the assembly had more manageable preload (shorter spring) and I could load it and screw in the end plug (with body weight) without the aid of a spring compressor. The Vortek kit made 815 FPS when installed and steadily went down to level off to about 764 FPS before breaking. I liked that 10 FPs of energy and shot cycle before the spring broke. Because the ARH spring was 3” longer, I expected the install to bring the FPS to above 815 again. I installed the ARH kit leaving the pristine Vortek piston seal in place – the ARH seal was too tight & required fitting, a task that I have never done before. I had to use my (altered for springers) Bar Clamp/Spring Compressor. I did a mock-up for the installation and found that while compressed, I could not turn the end-plug to screw it in to the compression tube. I bought a banded thrust bearing and washer from Grainger to place between the threaded end-plug and the wood-faced adjustable jaw and that allowed the turning of the end-plug. However, Screwing in the end-plug while under pressure against the Delrin spring guide lubricated with moly did not help the screw-in-the-plug process as much as I had hoped. Next time I will insert a thin steel washer in the hope that lubricated steel on steel will turn easier. After about 50 shots and an overnight in-cock position, the FX Chrono showed 10 shots with an average of 755 FPS. Also, I cannot perceive stacking when cocking like I did with the Vortek spring. The preload & longer spring seems to have imparted consistency. I’ll see how long the spring lasts and report back on consistency. I should say that I just purchased a Vortek PG3 kit to install when this ARH fails – why? Ease of installation. Something I just learned to appreciate.
Occasionally peoples bad experiences with a product are not necessarily the fault of the product, but in the execution or expectation of the user.
I've talked with Tom a bit more and he's stumped. I tore apart my PG3 and measured everything and it looks like all the parts I received are the right ones. Again, he's offered replacement or refund but I want to play with this one a bit to see what we can figure out. I've got lots of parts to play with and other guns to shoot so I'll experiment a bit and see where we get.My next steps to isolate this are to put the Aussie green seal back in and see what happens. The Aussie seal fits much looser than the Vortek seal. After that it's time to start clipping coils and watch the FPS and listen to the buzz. Just so you can hear what I'm talking about here, I put quick video on YouTube.[/ftp]Quote from: Gliderflyer on May 06, 2021, 04:49:46 PMMy HW95L .22 with an ARH kit installed.
My HW95L .22 with an ARH kit installed.
How can you not hear that buzz on the vid?! Something def needs to be addressed. You may try this ARH os seal if your comp tube is over spec. https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/10428873.htm Hope you get your gun shooting as it should with the Vortek kit. Sometimes a blend of two aftermarket venders does the trick. Ive used a touch of jm moly with my pg3 kitted guns and they shoot great! Looking forward to seeing how you get this issue resolved. Im confident you will🙂
Quote from: nced on May 06, 2021, 05:50:27 PMQuote from: Bayman on May 06, 2021, 05:03:19 PMQuote from: nced on May 06, 2021, 01:06:41 PMOK, I'll order a new 77011834 spring and cut a spring guide plus top hat for it and report the results! I currently have a .177 R9 that isn't being used for the test so perhaps I'm "off the mark" concerning the newer offerings!Good for you Ed glad to see you're open minded. I will say that the 118 wire is pretty thin. The factory springs are thicker and have a larger OD. Maybe try stepping up the thickness and diameter since you are making up new guides. A phone call to Tom at Vortek might be helpful. Perhaps those spring don't last long when they're smaller and thinner than factory. Maybe the issue is the spring choice isn't correct for the application?? Didn't Kirk build a 95 around a Vortek spring? Maybe find out which one he used and how's working out? Well I want to thank you for being a good sport and being open minded.Be well my friend. Just placed and order for this............http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/index.php?route=product/product&path=64_66&product_id=292120 Wire Spring 780 OD with 35 coils specified. Hey Ed, I used the .120 diameter wire and was surprised with the higher velocity vs. the larger diameter, higher coiled, ARH Hornet spring. I believe I simply trimmed down a OEM Weihrauch spring guide to fit the smaller ID spring.
Vortek offered two.120 wire springs, one with a .745 OD (.505 ID) and the .780 OD (.540 ID) which I ordered. The .780 OD offering is a bit larger than the ARH E3650 spring I normally use.........IMHO, the Vortek spring with a larger ID shouldn't be as "stiff" and less stressed than the ARH E3650. LOL....this assumes that the spring alloy and tempering are similar, which I'd be surprised if so. Anywhoo......I haven't been shooting very much during the past year so the new spring will give me an excuse to do more shooting. I have the 100 bull targets I made up and a few boxes of CPLs so I should be able to "burn up" a few 1250 count boxes of pellets during the testing. I'll chrony the .177 R9 after shooting one 100 bull target and keep "velocity tabs" till the end of the CPLs about 5000 shots later.
Quote from: nced on May 06, 2021, 11:23:21 PMVortek offered two.120 wire springs, one with a .745 OD (.505 ID) and the .780 OD (.540 ID) which I ordered. The .780 OD offering is a bit larger than the ARH E3650 spring I normally use.........IMHO, the Vortek spring with a larger ID shouldn't be as "stiff" and less stressed than the ARH E3650. LOL....this assumes that the spring alloy and tempering are similar, which I'd be surprised if so. Anywhoo......I haven't been shooting very much during the past year so the new spring will give me an excuse to do more shooting. I have the 100 bull targets I made up and a few boxes of CPLs so I should be able to "burn up" a few 1250 count boxes of pellets during the testing. I'll chrony the .177 R9 after shooting one 100 bull target and keep "velocity tabs" till the end of the CPLs about 5000 shots later.Ed just so you know what to expect. The Vortek springs come unset and will settle down a little from their initial velocity. For instance my girlfriend's Hw30 was shooting in the 720s the first day, the second it was shooting around 710, a month from now depending on use it will probably finish settling down at around 700. My other 30s did the exact same thing as well as my other Vortek guns. The velocity loss depends on spring it's usual around 20 fps. You can eliminate this by scragging the spring before installing. Scragging pre stresses the spring and brings it to its final relaxed length before installation. It supposedly increases spring life. Tom Gaylord did something on this in his blog. I believe JM charges a small fee to do the same thing except I believe he calls it "setting" the spring. The end result is the springs relaxed length is slightly shorter than the as manufactured length and easier to install. I haven't bothered doing it on my guns because I know to expect the small velocity loss with use and it doesn't bother me. Here's a link that explains what scragging is.https://springs.aero/spring-tips/prestressing/
Someone brought up the power setting on the top hat and how it changes power, and I changed mine from high to low when I went in to replace moly with krytox. The power reduction was: AA 10.34 and HN FTT - dropped 10 fps, Baracuda hunter 10.49 HP - dropped 13 - 19 fps, Barracuda 9.57 hunter extreme - dropped 36 fps. Unsure if the krytox had any effect on velocity. But why did it change the hunter extreme velocity so much while changing the others so little? I don't know, but it put the hunter extreme at a speed where it shoots great, and the slight change in the FTT seems to have tightened up groups just a hair (and they were already good), speed is pretty good, and shooting smooth (improving my follow through). And everything Except the barrel detent latch is a little smoother with the krytox (barrel detent latch is a mystery to me, but its decent for now) Think I'm done screwing with it, for a while anyway.
Quote from: Mrblonde40 on May 08, 2021, 09:25:51 AMSomeone brought up the power setting on the top hat and how it changes power, and I changed mine from high to low when I went in to replace moly with krytox. The power reduction was: AA 10.34 and HN FTT - dropped 10 fps, Baracuda hunter 10.49 HP - dropped 13 - 19 fps, Barracuda 9.57 hunter extreme - dropped 36 fps. Unsure if the krytox had any effect on velocity. But why did it change the hunter extreme velocity so much while changing the others so little? I don't know, but it put the hunter extreme at a speed where it shoots great, and the slight change in the FTT seems to have tightened up groups just a hair (and they were already good), speed is pretty good, and shooting smooth (improving my follow through). And everything Except the barrel detent latch is a little smoother with the krytox (barrel detent latch is a mystery to me, but its decent for now) Think I'm done screwing with it, for a while anyway.Jimmy, here's the deal. Anytime you switch to krytox you're guaranteed to loose 10 to 15 fps over the best sealing gun with petroleum based lunbes. It's generally closer to 10 fps. If the gun has sealing issues it can be much more. The best sealing guns still diesel petrol based lubricants that add a little velocity. Ten fps is a worthwhile trade off to gain tighter extreme spreads and seal life. I've converted enough guns to krytox to vindicate these findings. I generally use krytox for everything but my personal Hw30s because they're a little short on power and any boost I can get is welcome. Plus a 25mm tube is less likely to have sealing issues.
Quote from: Bayman on May 06, 2021, 07:11:46 PMOccasionally peoples bad experiences with a product are not necessarily the fault of the product, but in the execution or expectation of the user. My experience with Weihrauch guns other than Spring, Spring guide or Piston seal is -> Most problem issues are self inflicted by the owner/user .... whether intentional or not.
just to add some insight and perhaps what your hearing ?HW95 series guns OFTEN have there piston seal loose on the pistons head button. This allows the side of piston behind the seal to contact the main tube. this will RING the tube as well RING the piston from this metal on metal contact.Shim up the seal onto button so no contact happens or try a different seal ( ARH "Bullet" seal ) and get the piston head firmly seated.Next is the pistons tail and "IF" ? the latch rod is not running centered it also creates a bias contact of pistons tail with main tube and can also RING it.Having correct lubricant between piston and tube can also help damp or mitigate this trend if that's where the noise is coming from. Thoughts shared ...Scott S
][url=http://[/url]Quote from: Gliderflyer on May 06, 2021, 04:49:46 PMI've talked with Tom a bit more and he's stumped. I tore apart my PG3 and measured everything and it looks like all the parts I received are the right ones. Again, he's offered replacement or refund but I want to play with this one a bit to see what we can figure out. I've got lots of parts to play with and other guns to shoot so I'll experiment a bit and see where we get.My next steps to isolate this are to put the Aussie green seal back in and see what happens. The Aussie seal fits much looser than the Vortek seal. After that it's time to start clipping coils and watch the FPS and listen to the buzz. Just so you can hear what I'm talking about here, I put quick video on YouTube.[/ftp]Quote from: Gliderflyer on May 06, 2021, 04:49:46 PMMy HW95L .22 with an ARH kit installed.The HW95 in the top vid sounded exactly like the .177 HW95 as received "straight from the box" before adding fitted guide!
I've talked with Tom a bit more and he's stumped. I tore apart my PG3 and measured everything and it looks like all the parts I received are the right ones. Again, he's offered replacement or refund but I want to play with this one a bit to see what we can figure out. I've got lots of parts to play with and other guns to shoot so I'll experiment a bit and see where we get.My next steps to isolate this are to put the Aussie green seal back in and see what happens. The Aussie seal fits much looser than the Vortek seal. After that it's time to start clipping coils and watch the FPS and listen to the buzz. Just so you can hear what I'm talking about here, I put quick video on YouTube.[/ftp]Quote from: Gliderflyer on May 06, 2021, 04:49:46 PMMy HW95L .22 with an ARH kit installed.The HW95 in the top vid sounded exactly like the .177 HW95 as received "straight from the box" before adding fitted guide!