GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Precision Action on May 11, 2021, 07:52:00 AM
-
Unfortunately, since it's arrival this rifle has been full of disappointment. I purchased it because of it's reported velocity and ability to upgrade to a gas piston, then after arrival learned the velocity given was exaggerated, and the gas piston will not be available for consumer installation. But, I digress...
I swapped out the stock spring for a vortek and then when I went to compress the new spring into the rifle the safety spring got pulverized by one of the pins as I drove it back into the housing to hold the action and trigger in place. The safety was stuck on and would not budge for the life of me. Upon disassembly, I found the safety spring was pretty mangled. Upon attempting to straighten it, about a quarter of an inch broke off, but appears not be a critical part of it. The safety seems to work correctly out of the housing, but once installed back into the housing, the rifle still refuses to charge and the trigger never catches the piston.
I have not found a dealer that carries that part yet in the states, and it is hard for me to believe that one spring is going to leave me standing with a three hundred dollar paper weight.
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/84/98/07/82178810.jpg)
-
That's too bad. Hopefully Hector Medina chimes in with some helpful news. He's a good guy.. You may be able to form your own spring from piano wire of similar gauge. Piano wire is commonly sold in fishing tackle shops as "singlestrand" wire leader material. It will be sold by the lb test but the packaging has the wire diameter on it. I'm sure Hector will help first
Good luck.
-
Just as an fyi, I recently had to change out the piston seal on a 340 N-Tec and Hector advised using dummy pins to prevent the problem you are having. I bought a pack and they made the job much easier. I was able to find them at Lowes.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-4-Pack-Nickel-plated-Shelf-Pins/3223655 (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-4-Pack-Nickel-plated-Shelf-Pins/3223655)
-
That trigger is just supposed to be a modified version of the original T06. With the rod in the center of the piston no longer there and how the piston locked back on cocking, they had to make minor changes in the trigger pack to compensate for it, but most of the parts should still be the same as the older T06 triggers. I might well be wrong here, but I'd think the safety spring from an older T06 would be the same and work for you if you can find one.
As far as the gas pistons and such, the rifles are so new, the modular parts aka gas rams, barrels and spare parts haven't gotten here as fast as the rifles did.
Give it a bit and I'd guess Hector Medina will chime in to try and help you sort it out.
-
My first thought was “did you use drift/dummy pins upon re-assembly??” But that seems to be a rather moot point at this juncture. I would suggest reaching out to chamber gun spares for the regular 34 piston (T-06 model of course) and a new T-06 trigger group. Hope you can get your Diana back up and running.
-
He's got the new EMS version so the old T06 trigger pack as a whole won't work but some of the parts should.
TW Chambers, part number is CS853. Word of note, the links are to the older T06 trigger, NOT the new version that's in the 34 EMS rifles and Chambers doesn't even list that one yet. If it looks like yours should, they supposedly have them in stock:
https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24955/TO6-Trigger-Unit/# (https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24955/TO6-Trigger-Unit/#)
-
He's got the new EMS version so the old T06 trigger pack as a whole won't work but some of the parts should.
TW Chambers, part number is CS853. Word of note, the links are to the older T06 trigger, NOT the new version that's in the 34 EMS rifles and Chambers doesn't even list that one yet. If it looks like yours should, they supposedly have them in stock:
https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24955/TO6-Trigger-Unit/# (https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24955/TO6-Trigger-Unit/#)
Ok. I was under the impression that as long as you used the older piston with the older trigger group, they would both fit in the ems model.
-
The older 34's have the latching rod in the center of the piston. The 34 EMS has a hollow piston. It was one of the changes made so if the owner wants to switch from spring to gas ram, the gas ram will slide in. It also meant changes to the T06 trigger pack so the trigger would latch when you cocked the rifle.
Go back to the older T05 and T06 rifles and that works. All you need to upgrade from the T05 to T06 is the piston and trigger pack from a T06 rifle which Chambers does sell for several different Diana models. I think it also works on the even older T01 trigger rifles but don't quote me on that as I'm not totally sure...lol. I have a 2002 built D34 with the T01 trigger and half considered it but haven't dug into researching it enough to know for sure.
-
Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to make a spring or buy one, than a buy a piston and trigger group? Does the spring even come with the trigger group? I'm not a Diana expert but if I were the OP I'd find Hector and reach out to him or make a spring. The OP has the remains to pattern a new one.
-
PA is supposed to be the warranty center for Diana branded rifles and a phone call may well settle whether they have any spare parts on hand yet. I'm still going to guess the safety spring he broke is the same one used in the now bit older T06 trigger packs.
Hector @ Connecticut Custom Airguns has mentioned already tuning and tweaking a few and may well have that spring or could make one. A PM to him here on GTA would answer that one. Just find the name Hector Medina in the members list and shoot him one. Link to Hector's website: https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/ (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/)
Making one himself is also a very viable option.
Spare parts is key here especially since the rifles are so new to market, the spare parts and assorted goodies that go along with the EMS system may well not have caught up with the rifles yet. The rifle in question is a new EMS based rifle and they are different in more than a few ways, the piston and trigger group being 2 of those ways. The pistons are totally different and the trigger groups while they may share parts aren't totally the same.
-
It's a piece of wire bent similar to a paperclip. Which also may incidentally be modified to fit. With the a little piano wire, time and ingenuity he can be back to shooting in very little time. If he's got the skills to get apart and back together he should be able to fashion a simple spring. If he was local I'd do it for him.
-
I’d guess it would depend on if the op wants to keep the modified trigger group for a future gas strut installation,...whenever they become available, or just go with a traditional stemmed piston/spring/trigger setup. Sometimes it is cheaper in the long run to purchase and pay shipping for a component bundle than to purchase and pay shipping for a single component . This way he could have the option to swap out setups to see which he prefers the best.
-
Read this and you'll get an idea of the differences between the bit older D34's and the new 34 EMS rifles and why I keep saying a lot of the parts from the now older style 34's will not work in the newer EMS versions.
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/converting-a-spring-powered-d34-into-an-n-tec-rifle (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/converting-a-spring-powered-d34-into-an-n-tec-rifle)
-
My understanding is that the trigger in the D34 EMS is the same or very similar to the trigger in the Diana 340 N-tec.
See if you can find a diagram or parts for that.
-Y
-
Here...that spring still appears to be the same. That schematic is from PA so they might well have one:
-
According to:
https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24955/TO6-Trigger-Unit/# (https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24955/TO6-Trigger-Unit/#)
The spring is the same, but the cocking lever is different.
Assuming that there is nothing wrong with the vortek tuning kit, and the section that broke off pushed the cocking lever upwards and kept it there. I could try to bend what little wire is left of the spring upwards to facilitate the same function.
Here are a couple of links I found on spring forming, just for funsy:
https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Make-Springs/ (https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Make-Springs/)
https://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/making-springs-at-home/ (https://hackaday.com/2016/05/29/making-springs-at-home/)
-
Read this and you'll get an idea of the differences between the bit older D34's and the new 34 EMS rifles and why I keep saying a lot of the parts from the now older style 34's will not work in the newer EMS versions.
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/converting-a-spring-powered-d34-into-an-n-tec-rifle (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/converting-a-spring-powered-d34-into-an-n-tec-rifle)
Thanks for the link Steve. And just as I thought, the older stemmed T-06 piston and T-06 triggr will work in the 34 EMS as well as the N-tec 340. Basically the same action with a wider slot to facilitate the newer trigger group. But the thing is, the older trigger group is the same diameter and the cross pins are the same and they hold the group in the same position as the new trigger group with the piston skirt latch. However, to fit the newer EMS/N-tec piston, spring/strut, and trigger group to an older model, then yes you would have to mill out the action, the stock, and add a shorter rear stock screw as Hector performed in his 34 modification.
Getting back to the OP’s original issue, I would source out the oem safety spring or a new EMS trigger group and use dummy/drift pins the next time during reassembly. Sure you can probably make a new spring out of spring steel wire, but getting an exact match could be iffy imo. Changing out seals, springs, and triggers is one thing but substituting a safety operating component is a risk and liability I wouldn’t be inclined to pursue. Hope you can find the spring real soon William.
-
Unfortunately, since it's arrival this rifle has been full of disappointment. I purchased it because of it's reported velocity and ability to upgrade to a gas piston, then after arrival learned the velocity given was exaggerated, and the gas piston will not be available for consumer installation. But, I digress...
I swapped out the stock spring for a vortek and then when I went to compress the new spring into the rifle the safety spring got pulverized by one of the pins as I drove it back into the housing to hold the action and trigger in place. The safety was stuck on and would not budge for the life of me. Upon disassembly, I found the safety spring was pretty mangled. Upon attempting to straighten it, about a quarter of an inch broke off, but appears not be a critical part of it. The safety seems to work correctly out of the housing, but once installed back into the housing, the rifle still refuses to charge and the trigger never catches the piston.
I have not found a dealer that carries that part yet in the states, and it is hard for me to believe that one spring is going to leave me standing with a three hundred dollar paper weight.
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/19/84/98/07/82178810.jpg)
What velocity were you getting that you were unhappy with? Iff you hadn't tried to change to a new spring you would not have had this problem! Now I understand why Diana only wants qualified people working on the EMS.
-Y
-
Precisioninaction.- Sorry I have been AWOL for the last few days. Nanny had the CoViD shot and I am a one man orchestra now.
Send me your postal address and I will send you the spring.
I understand your frustration, but you have to admit that a little more research about the proper way to break down a DIANA would have prevented the issue.
No biggie, let me have your address and you will have a spring. I am leaving for the North Carolina Classic tomorrow.
And, now I am going to take the opportunity to vent a little:
THIS is why I DEEPLY DISLIKE those tinkerers that say that dummy/dumb pins are not needed. They are a dis-service to the community. THEY may have the abilities and the wherewithal to do three things at the same time, most of us mortals do not.
SO, next time, when a professional says that something should be done in a certain way, take into account that he does this for the benefit of EVERYONE and do NOT issue opinions that MAY damage other people.
BTW, parts to convert to an NTec ARE ALREADY AVAILABLE as spares for the NTEC rifles. It's just that all the "Experts", "Godfathers", and "Pundits" simply do not know enough about DIANA airguns to realize that.
Ahhhh, the cost of ignorance.....
Rant over.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
-
@HM - That works, and yes there are a lot of things I wish I had known in advance. Also very pleased to hear the parts to convert to N-Tec are available, it makes me feel much more pleased with my decision.
Any further attempts to fix the diana are placed on hold until a new spring is acquired, but I have become a little suspicious about whether the Vortek spring is the proper one for the 34 EMS or whether it is for an older 34 model. I purchased it along with a breech seal from Vortek, and when it arrived the breech seal was obviously the wrong size.
-
@HM - That works, and yes there are a lot of things I wish I had known in advance. Also very pleased to hear the parts to convert to N-Tec are available, it makes me feel much more pleased with my decision.
Any further attempts to fix the diana are placed on hold until a new spring is acquired, but I have become a little suspicious about whether the Vortek spring is the proper one for the 34 EMS or whether it is for an older 34 model. I purchased it along with a breech seal from Vortek, and when it arrived the breech seal was obviously the wrong size.
Well what size was it? Should be 28mm+...
-Y
-
That answers my question, and it is 28mm. Still need to get Vortek to replace the breach seal they sent me.
-
That answers my question, and it is 28mm. Still need to get Vortek to replace the breach seal they sent me.
Soryy the piston seal in 28mm. the breach seal,????
Just measure yours.
-Y
-
In a pinch I've used an O ring faucet washer from the plumbing department of the local big box store. Take the old one along for comparison. Like the piston seals they generally last a very long time.
-
@HM - That works, and yes there are a lot of things I wish I had known in advance. Also very pleased to hear the parts to convert to N-Tec are available, it makes me feel much more pleased with my decision.
Any further attempts to fix the diana are placed on hold until a new spring is acquired, but I have become a little suspicious about whether the Vortek spring is the proper one for the 34 EMS or whether it is for an older 34 model. I purchased it along with a breech seal from Vortek, and when it arrived the breech seal was obviously the wrong size.
Spring is on its way.
Keep us posted!
HM
-
Well, God bless Hector's soul, the spring arrived today. Also, after making a trip to Ace hardware I was able to pickup two tapered pins to act as dummy pins. When I say tapered pins, only the last 1/16th of an inch of both ends were tapered, which was nearly perfect for the application. Sadly, the diameters of the pins varied slightly, they both worked effortlessly, only one was a little loser than the other. After using them, I have to admit Hector was absolutely correct in stressing their necessity. They are a requirement for necessary assembly of the of the trigger action.
Once assembled though, the rifle still fails to charge. Which baffles my bagels. I know with my Rugger 10-22, the trigger mechanism has to be charged during reassembly. Is this a similar situation?
-
Nope!
Are you sure you assembled the trigger correctly?
This is an inteference trigger, wich means that the small ramp at the BOTTOM pops "UP" and blocks the piston from moving.
This ramp is pushed into place when the TOP of the piston pushes on the safety plate at the UPPER end of the trigger.
Make sure that the rear stock screw is not overly tightened and try again.
If it does not work, then you will need to remove the spring and make sure that the piston latches the trigger without any spring pressure.
Use just the REAR action closing pin to test this (gun without spring), if it latches, then the problem is with the spring.
You know that it latches if you need to remove the trigger unit to release the piston. IT should be easy to remove the trigger unit, as there is no spring pressure.
If you feel this is too daunting, feel free to send me the gun.
Really sorry you are having all this trouble.
HM
-
It is an odd error indeed, and admittedly I am coming to my wits end with the rifle. The only reason the safety spring was damaged, was out of my ignorance not to use dummy pins and one of the pins snagged it during its installation. As far as the rest of the trigger is concerned, it has not been touched since the Diana factory. Which I am starting to form the suspicion of Diana's factory actually being secretly located in the infamous Wuhan province of China.
The catch (which I am assuming is the ramp you are referring to) is being pushed outwards/downwards from contacting the piston, and I have applied pressure to it gently to see if it would latch to the piston as it should to no avail. I have also backed out the trigger adjusting springs slightly to see if those were problematic, along with the rear and front trigger guard screws. Next, I will break down the rifle again, and remove the trigger spring as suggested and run some tests to see if that is the possible culprit. If this does not work, I will then break down the entire rifle and trigger into it's components and take photos of them. This will further aid in the troubleshooting since the T06 on the 34 EMS is slightly different from any of the trigger diagrams I have found online. It would be nice if Diana published the spare parts list for this rifle online.
I also need to relubricate everything since, breaking it down and reassembling it has wiped most of the grease off the parts. I am assuming white lithium grease and engine assembly grease is acceptable until the moly lube I just purchased arrives.
Now, if only I could find a way to successfully stabilize the shaft of the mechanical fuel pump for my tractor, so I could finish with it's disassembly. Then readjust it's timing to match the engine. Life would be cooking with peanut oil at that point.
-
It is an odd error indeed, and admittedly I am coming to my wits end with the rifle. The only reason the safety spring was damaged, was out of my ignorance not to use dummy pins and one of the pins snagged it during its installation. As far as the rest of the trigger is concerned, it has not been touched since the Diana factory. Which I am starting to form the suspicion of Diana's factory actually being secretly located in the infamous Wuhan province of China.
The gun is made in Germany. Political discussions are not for the German gate.
-
So, after running my tests, which included removal of the hook spring, I still do not have a working air rifle. I also disassembled the trigger twice and tested its functionality each time. After doing this I am more informed of its brilliance of design and operation. I noticed how the bottom of the cocking lever fits into the back of the Upper Hook, and am proud to say that the safety does function quite well. I also noticed how the lower lever fits into and operates the hook. From everything that I can tell, the trigger works as it should.
My next experiment that I hope to attempt before the end of the night is to remove the Vortek spring and reinstall the stock spring that came with the rifle. It may be the case that the sleeve of the Vortek spring is interfering with the ability of the Upper Hook to successfully latch onto the piston. Past this point, I will have run out of ideas.
Attached is the breakdown of the trigger identifying it's various parts according to gunspares.co.uk.
-
And the end result of all my effort was discovering that the Vortek spring was the culprit all along. Once the Vortek was replaced with the stock spring, she came back to life. Apparently, the Vortek spring for the Diana 34 is not compatible with the new Diana 34 EMS, and only works on older models. I have already contacted Vortek so that they may notify other customers of the incompatibility. I will break her back down again tomorrow to get specific measurements of the difference and attempt to discover exactly what is throwing the upper hook off and preventing it from latching onto the piston.
Also from my research into the issue I discovered the stock is collapsing from where the two front action mounting bolts are secured too tightly. Which, I was completely unaware of, since the bolts have a habit of backing themselves out. I guess I should have gone with the synthetic stock. It also still has a ding inside the rifling of the barrel that occurred in the first week of ownership. So, I might need to get that taken care of as well. Walther Lothar has barrel blanks at a fairly reasonable price, so I thought about upgrading the barrel while I have the opportunity. I just don't know of anyone that can turn the barrel of an air rifle. Any suggestions?
-
And the end result of all my effort was discovering that the Vortek spring was the culprit all along. Once the Vortek was replaced with the stock spring, she came back to life. Apparently, the Vortek spring for the Diana 34 is not compatible with the new Diana 34 EMS, and only works on older models. I have already contacted Vortek so that they may notify other customers of the incompatibility. I will break her back down again tomorrow to get specific measurements of the difference and attempt to discover exactly what is throwing the upper hook off and preventing it from latching onto the piston.
Also from my research into the issue I discovered the stock is collapsing from where the two front action mounting bolts are secured too tightly. Which, I was completely unaware of, since the bolts have a habit of backing themselves out. I guess I should have gone with the synthetic stock. It also still has a ding inside the rifling of the barrel that occurred in the first week of ownership. So, I might need to get that taken care of as well. Walther Lothar has barrel blanks at a fairly reasonable price, so I thought about upgrading the barrel while I have the opportunity. I just don't know of anyone that can turn the barrel of an air rifle. Any suggestions?
William,
Many people recommend reinforcing the wood where screws go througth with "crazy glue", or similar. As for a new barrel, I would suggest that you contact Hector about that... 8) ;)
-Y
-
Many people recommend reinforcing the wood where screws go througth with "crazy glue", or similar. As for a new barrel, I would suggest that you contact Hector about that... 8) ;)
-Y
Well Yogi,
I have to admit, while my pellet rifle was out of commission I slid my bore snake through it. It is the same boresnake I use for my 22lr. The caliber is the same, so I figured I could at least fight off the potential for rusting. For ten shots she was loud and smokey, but then she quited all down. Now, that blemish has disappeared, and the rifling is in terrific shape.
I got up at the crack of dawn to try her out again, after all Sunday is gun day. My hands were shaky, but she is firing good. I was hitting the target at 100yards, not good, but hitting the paper. The lack of sleep, and other frustrations of life were getting to me. I had my grumpy pants firmly on earlier. Shooting helps me to find peace and solace in this hectic world. Everyone has problems, and for some reason throwing lead helps me to forget many of mine.
It is good to hear about the reinforcement, I enjoy working with epoxy and have been wanting to bed the rifle for sometime. Since I am still stumped with my tractor's fuel pump, it might be a good day to watch some Bat Masterson and bed the rifle
Happy gunday
-
Just to let you know, the .22 LR and .22 pellet are a different diameter. Slightly...
Yoga and meditation help with life's struggles... ;) ;D
-Y
-
Yoga and meditation help with life's struggles... ;) ;D
-Y
Did you mean Yogi and meditation?
-
Yoga and meditation help with life's struggles... ;) ;D
-Y
Did you mean Yogi and meditation?
No Bill ;D ;D ;D
I'm not a calming influence on most people. Probably more the opposite? ::)
-Y
-
William;
My deepest apologies for not havog explained that the spring you needed to test without was the MAIN spring (I.E. the Vortek kit)!
So, so, sorry!
Life is hectic for everyone, but still, I am sorry that the "spring" in my comment was understood as the trigger spring and not the MAIN spring.
I am happy that you now have located the problem.
Keep well and shoot straight (now that you CAN shoot)!
HM
-
This is going to have to be a quick and dirty post, I gotta run.
In summary: The vortek spring was most definitely not compatible with the Diana 34 EMS. It is made for the previous models, but not the EMS. A side by side comparison with the assistance of a ruler clearly showed this was the case. The two springs differ from each other in almost every respect. This helped to explain why the breech seal vortek sent me was not the correct size as well.
Vortek's product engineer has contacted me and asked for some velocity measurements to provide some quantitative data to aid in the design of a spring for the Diana EMS.
----
I am rather embarrassed to ask this next question. I have been shooting at a target at 100yds now since I acquired the rifle, and I can't hit a blasted thing. Regardless of rest, it is the worse I have ever shot. The only thing I can think of is my velocity is so low that by the time the pellet comes to the target, it is starting to destabilize. My velocity at nozzle is about 686ftps.
Any ideas?
-
This is going to have to be a quick and dirty post, I gotta run.
In summary: The vortek spring was most definitely not compatible with the Diana 34 EMS. It is made for the previous models, but not the EMS. A side by side comparison with the assistance of a ruler clearly showed this was the case. The two springs differ from each other in almost every respect. This helped to explain why the breech seal vortek sent me was not the correct size as well.
Vortek's product engineer has contacted me and asked for some velocity measurements to provide some quantitative data to aid in the design of a spring for the Diana EMS.
----
I am rather embarrassed to ask this next question. I have been shooting at a target at 100yds now since I acquired the rifle, and I can't hit a blasted thing. Regardless of rest, it is the worse I have ever shot. The only thing I can think of is my velocity is so low that by the time the pellet comes to the target, it is starting to destabilize. My velocity at nozzle is about 686ftps.
Any ideas?
FWIW-10Meter target rifles usually shoot in the 400's fps. Have you tried the artillery hold? Are you shooting rested or free hand? Are the stock screws tight?
-Y
-
Yogi,
Maybe I am misunderstanding something but I think you're missing a zero. I believe he said he's shooting at 100 yards.
-
How's it do at 25-50? I'd imagine quite a drop at a 100 with a 15-ish ftlb. rifle. Pellets like H&N FTT's, JSB 15.9's and AA 16's should do alright when pushing longer shots. In all honesty, I think DIANA side and under leavers are better suited for longer shots, in my opinion. They are a bit more powerful and I find much easier to shoot accurately. That's a lot to ask (100 yards) from any springer. The lighter 34 at full power is a fine rifle, just may be the wrong tool for the job. I'm sure its been done though.
Best of luck to you, take it easy.
-
Yogi,
Maybe I am misunderstanding something but I think you're missing a zero. I believe he said he's shooting at 100 yards.
Thanks Bill, you are right.
Who but a mad dog or Englishman would want to shoot a springer at 100 yards. ; :( GET A PCP! ;)
-Y
-
Mad Dog? Did someone call my name?
Yes, I was referring to 100 yards. The results have improved over time, but it is a frustrating venture.
I clocked the velocity earlier today at 588.67 FPS with Ruger Superpoint in 17gr at the muzzle. This is very disheartening, for one of the reasons I settled of the D-EMS was it's advertised velocity. At the time of purchase it was advertised at 900 FPS, the following day pyramyd air corrected the exaggerated velocity to 860 FPS with a 4.3 grain round. Why they chose the 4.3 grain round to be the standard at which they advertised velocity is beyond my comprehension at this moment. I have yet to achieve a velocity over 700FPS with the current selection of pellets, my maximum velocity was around 686 FPS before the Vortek event.
Upon last examination of the internals of the rifle, I discovered the piston had mushroomed a bit towards the rear. This was out of attempting to charge the rifle with the wrong spring, and was done so with only a modicum of force. It is this mushrooming that I believe is the direct causation for the lower velocity levels I am now receiving. The mushroomed bit is causing drag and slowing down the movement of the piston. With a solid oak dowel and a soft hammer, I will see if I cannot straighten the piston shaft out. Then I will take to removing all the sharp edges of the piston gently with a small file or honing compound.
Hopefully, this will give me the result I have been searching for.
-
Are you sure the piston is mushrooming? Some pistons have a small expanded section and the rear that is meant to contact the compression tube (so the piston contacts comp tube at rear of piston and the seal contacts comp tube at the front of piston). Flatting out the mushroomed part may just make your piston loose. Try sliding the piston in the maintube without any spring attached. Should be some resistance (up to a couple of pounds) and generally the resistance is from the seal. If you move the piston in the comp tube with no seal on the front it should move freely.
-
Mad Dog? Did someone call my name?
Yes, I was referring to 100 yards. The results have improved over time, but it is a frustrating venture.
I clocked the velocity earlier today at 588.67 FPS with Ruger Superpoint in 17gr at the muzzle. This is very disheartening, for one of the reasons I settled of the D-EMS was it's advertised velocity. At the time of purchase it was advertised at 900 FPS, the following day pyramyd air corrected the exaggerated velocity to 860 FPS with a 4.3 grain round. Why they chose the 4.3 grain round to be the standard at which they advertised velocity is beyond my comprehension at this moment. I have yet to achieve a velocity over 700FPS with the current selection of pellets, my maximum velocity was around 686 FPS before the Vortek event.
Upon last examination of the internals of the rifle, I discovered the piston had mushroomed a bit towards the rear. This was out of attempting to charge the rifle with the wrong spring, and was done so with only a modicum of force. It is this mushrooming that I believe is the direct causation for the lower velocity levels I am now receiving. The mushroomed bit is causing drag and slowing down the movement of the piston. With a solid oak dowel and a soft hammer, I will see if I cannot straighten the piston shaft out. Then I will take to removing all the sharp edges of the piston gently with a small file or honing compound.
Hopefully, this will give me the result I have been searching for.
Send the gun to Hector. ;) If there is a defect, not operator error, he and the folk in the fatherland want to know. 8) :-[ :'(
-Y
-
Are you sure the piston is mushrooming? Some pistons have a small expanded section and the rear that is meant to contact the compression tube (so the piston contacts comp tube at rear of piston and the seal contacts comp tube at the front of piston). Flatting out the mushroomed part may just make your piston loose. Try sliding the piston in the main tube without any spring attached. Should be some resistance (up to a couple of pounds) and generally the resistance is from the seal. If you move the piston in the comp tube with no seal on the front it should move freely.
This is what I am leaning towards after giving it another inspection, although the flange is not uniformly constructed, being more pronounced on one side than the other. I really should take a caliper to it and get some more exact measurements. Regardless, after a couple of gentle "warmup" thumps with a 6lb rubber mallet, it was obvious that unless I was interested in firing up a forge and through the hardening process again, I'd better let it go. So, I did. I just never noticed the flange up until a few days ago, and I guess I am a little over confident in my own strength.
Now, I just need to take the rough edges off to stop me from slicing my fingers when I handle it, and give it a good lube with some moly paste. I have no idea how I am going to squeeze a few more FTPS out of the devil.
-
A lot of guns come from the factory pretty close to their maximum power because they know that speed sells. That said, you might be able to get a little more speed by adding a few washers in front or in back of the spring. Pay attention to the shot cycle if you do this because if you over-space it can make the shot cycle harsh and that's not good for the gun and really not good for a scope. Also, if too much spacing is added the gun may not cock and you'll have to remove spacing until it does.
-
Just wondering, but what scope are you using. A 16fpe gun spitting out 16 grain pellets has a drop measured in feet on inches at that distance.
Don't you run out of elevation and reticle? ???
-Y
-
A lot of guns come from the factory pretty close to their maximum power because they know that speed sells. That said, you might be able to get a little more speed by adding a few washers in front or in back of the spring. Pay attention to the shot cycle if you do this because if you over-space it can make the shot cycle harsh and that's not good for the gun and really not good for a scope. Also, if too much spacing is added the gun may not cock and you'll have to remove spacing until it does.
My biggest concern is exactly where to place them. I have some thick lug washers left over from replacing the passenger side rear axel shaft on the crown vic, one of those might be large enough. The only other things I can think about to increase the power, are frankly, out of my pay grade at this point in the game. There was that entire mechanical engineering degree that I neglected to earn, I just had to grow up to be an idealist to pursue theology and philosophy. Bugger me... ::)
Just wondering, but what scope are you using. A 16fpe gun spitting out 16 grain pellets has a drop measured in feet on inches at that distance.
Don't you run out of elevation and reticle? ???
By sheer chance/luck I purchased a dovetail to picatinny rail adapter that gave me a few extra MOAs to play around with.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-drooper-scope-rail-11mm-to-weaver-adapter-compensates-for-droop?a=4191 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-drooper-scope-rail-11mm-to-weaver-adapter-compensates-for-droop?a=4191)
Although if asked, I wouldn't recommend that particular rail adapter with my particular rifle. The stop pins are a smaller diameter than the holes provided for it, and have nothing to prevent the stop pins from being installed to far down into the action of the rifle.
The scope that is mounted to it, is the UTG Bug Buster. Which I am rather pleased with, and feel it was a good deal. I had read about it on several websites, and had wanted to give it a try someday.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-3-12x32-ao-bug-buster-rifle-scope-mil-dot-reticle-1-3-moa-1-tube?a=7972 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-3-12x32-ao-bug-buster-rifle-scope-mil-dot-reticle-1-3-moa-1-tube?a=7972)
I still have more clicks left in the scope, probably two more full turns, which won't be breaking any distance records anytime soon. The biggest issue with the scope is the 3 clicks = 1 MOA configuration, requiring a little extra arithmetic to figure things out.
-
My biggest concern is exactly where to place them.
Spacing can go either between the spring and the piston (inside the piston, in front of the spring) or between the spring and the spring guide (behind the spring). If you add washers in front of the spring it will add some weight to the piston, which also might generate a bit more power. If you add too much spacing (either front or back) the piston won't be able to be pushed back far enough to engage the trigger. Also, if you get the power too high (too much spring force) you can actually get reduced power to the pellet because the piston "slams" into the front of the compression tube and wastes a lot of energy. Pay attention to the shooting behavior after adding spacing. If it seems at all harsh you should back it off a bit. Harsh firing and especially piston slam can really be hard on a scope. Also, if you get too close to max power for a platform the gun can be ok shooting one pellet and really harsh shooting a lighter pellet. The best way to get significantly more power is to get a more powerful gun.
-
A lot of guns come from the factory pretty close to their maximum power because they know that speed sells. That said, you might be able to get a little more speed by adding a few washers in front or in back of the spring. Pay attention to the shot cycle if you do this because if you over-space it can make the shot cycle harsh and that's not good for the gun and really not good for a scope. Also, if too much spacing is added the gun may not cock and you'll have to remove spacing until it does.
My biggest concern is exactly where to place them. I have some thick lug washers left over from replacing the passenger side rear axel shaft on the crown vic, one of those might be large enough. The only other things I can think about to increase the power, are frankly, out of my pay grade at this point in the game. There was that entire mechanical engineering degree that I neglected to earn, I just had to grow up to be an idealist to pursue theology and philosophy. Bugger me... ::)
Just wondering, but what scope are you using. A 16fpe gun spitting out 16 grain pellets has a drop measured in feet on inches at that distance.
Don't you run out of elevation and reticle? ???
By sheer chance/luck I purchased a dovetail to picatinny rail adapter that gave me a few extra MOAs to play around with.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-drooper-scope-rail-11mm-to-weaver-adapter-compensates-for-droop?a=4191 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-drooper-scope-rail-11mm-to-weaver-adapter-compensates-for-droop?a=4191)
Although if asked, I wouldn't recommend that particular rail adapter with my particular rifle. The stop pins are a smaller diameter than the holes provided for it, and have nothing to prevent the stop pins from being installed to far down into the action of the rifle.
The scope that is mounted to it, is the UTG Bug Buster. Which I am rather pleased with, and feel it was a good deal. I had read about it on several websites, and had wanted to give it a try someday.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-3-12x32-ao-bug-buster-rifle-scope-mil-dot-reticle-1-3-moa-1-tube?a=7972 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/utg-3-12x32-ao-bug-buster-rifle-scope-mil-dot-reticle-1-3-moa-1-tube?a=7972)
I still have more clicks left in the scope, probably two more full turns, which won't be breaking any distance records anytime soon. The biggest issue with the scope is the 3 clicks = 1 MOA configuration, requiring a little extra arithmetic to figure things out.
Well if 3 clicks is 1 MOA, at a hundred yards, that is one inch. Are you sure it is not 4 clicks to one MOA? Anyway, so 36 clicks=one foot. 108 clicks=3 feet. Now you should be within a foot of the final target, lol. Just wait till your scope breaks because you turret springs are floating, lol. ;)
-Y
-
Yogi,
I have one of those 3-12x32 Bug Busters on my HW30S. It is in fact a weird 3 clicks per MOA. No clue why it is designed that way.
-
Yogi,
I have one of those 3-12x32 Bug Busters on my HW30S. It is in fact a weird 3 clicks per MOA. No clue why it is designed that way.
Strange indeed....
How many clicks for a full revolution?
-Y
-
How's it do at 25-50? I'd imagine quite a drop at a 100 with a 15-ish ftlb. rifle. Pellets like H&N FTT's, JSB 15.9's and AA 16's should do alright when pushing longer shots. In all honesty, I think DIANA side and under leavers are better suited for longer shots, in my opinion. They are a bit more powerful and I find much easier to shoot accurately. That's a lot to ask (100 yards) from any springer. The lighter 34 at full power is a fine rifle, just may be the wrong tool for the job. I'm sure its been done though.
25-50yds, honestly, too easy. At 25yds, you are blowing a solitary hole through your target, with only a modicum of spread at 50yds. At 75yds, things get a bit tricky, but the result is good enough to zero out your rifle. Then at target range, 100yds, the accomplishment of creating a 1moa spread becomes tough, for me at least. Any movement is amplified, and stillness is critical.
As mentioned, right now I am using Ruger SuperPoints 17gr. I started this venture with H&N's Barracuda Match 21.14 grain, which felt like the rifle was really struggling with. I probably will back down on the weight a little more and aim for a 14.5grain domed pellet. Being in the land of the unsophisticated, I try to keep things to what is readily and locally available, and avoid using pellets I have to special order online. It has to do with possessing a sense of authenticity. This means, I try to use what Walmart or Bass Pro has in stock, which are my only local options. Bass Pro is a good 45 min drive away, and Walmart a little less than 30 min drive.
Yogi,
I have one of those 3-12x32 Bug Busters on my HW30S. It is in fact a weird 3 clicks per MOA. No clue why it is designed that way.
Strange indeed....
How many clicks for a full revolution?
Let me go check, my rifle is in the other room... Surprisingly, 24 MOA per revolution. So, I would adjust my estimate down to a rotation and a half left on her. The UTG Drooper is said to provide an additional 10' @ 30 yds. What that would be at 100 yds? I got around 33 additional inches.
This brings into awareness the other issue I have with the UTG Drooper. If configured like it is currently, you can shoot at long distances, but you will be unable to correctly aim at anything less than 50yds. If you swap around the rail, then the inverse is true. So, it is a double edged sword.
-
Yogi,
I have one of those 3-12x32 Bug Busters on my HW30S. It is in fact a weird 3 clicks per MOA. No clue why it is designed that way.
Strange indeed....
How many clicks for a full revolution?
Let me go check, my rifle is in the other room... Surprisingly, 24 MOA per revolution. So, I would adjust my estimate down to a rotation and a half left on her. The UTG Drooper is said to provide an additional 10' @ 30 yds. What that would be at 100 yds? I got around 33 additional inches.
This brings into awareness the other issue I have with the UTG Drooper. If configured like it is currently, you can shoot at long distances, but you will be unable to correctly aim at anything less than 50yds. If you swap around the rail, then the inverse is true. So, it is a double edged sword.
Either way, you are looking at massive holdover...... ???
-Y
-
Either way, you are looking at massive holdover...... ???
Holdover??? Is that like a layover, but they hold onto your luggage and refuse to give it to you?
-
Either way, you are looking at massive holdover...... ???
Holdover??? Is that like a layover, but they hold onto your luggage and refuse to give it to you?
[/quote(
Airline policy if over 3 hours you need to collect it and recheck it for your next flight. ;) ;) ;)
-Y
-
William;
What you are accomplishing is quite outstanding (Single hole @25 yds, not much wider spread at 50).
If you have the time read this:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/its-all-about-accuracy (https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/its-all-about-accuracy)
To see how some competitive disciplines fare in relation to your MOA groups.
Getting 1 MOA@ Hundred Yards (TRUE 100 yards) with ANY piston airgun is worthy of celebration. Getting it, or getting NEAR to that, in a consistent manner, with a breakbarrel is amazing.
If your barrel likes the Baracudas, you may look into the Baracuda 18's. Specifically designed to keep the velocity up at extended ranges.
At some point, if you are to really achieve the MOA groups, you WILL need to depart from the Department store varieties of pellets, as they are concentrated on volume shooting, not quality shooting.
Congrats again, keep up the good work, and thanks for shooting a DIANA!
HM
-
A new trigger issue has arisen, the trigger fully compresses, but the upper hook does not release. It feels like the trigger is sliding past the release. I have disassembled the rifle and inspected the trigger and did not find anything noticeably wrong.
Any ideas.
-
A new trigger issue has arisen, the trigger fully compresses, but the upper hook does not release. It feels like the trigger is sliding past the release. I have disassembled the rifle and inspected the trigger and did not find anything noticeably wrong.
Any ideas.
Your second stage screw has probably smoothed itself a little short.
Screw the rear screw in the blade ½ turn and check if the second stage re-appears.
Also mark the position of the screw in the trigger blade with a white China marker or other medium, SOME screws may back out with vibrations, but the most common case is the parts "wearing into each other" and ending up just a tad short.
Keep us posted!
HM
-
A new trigger issue has arisen, the trigger fully compresses, but the upper hook does not release. It feels like the trigger is sliding past the release. I have disassembled the rifle and inspected the trigger and did not find anything noticeably wrong.
Any ideas.
Your second stage screw has probably smoothed itself a little short.
Screw the rear screw in the blade ½ turn and check if the second stage re-appears.
Also mark the position of the screw in the trigger blade with a white China marker or other medium, SOME screws may back out with vibrations, but the most common case is the parts "wearing into each other" and ending up just a tad short.
Keep us posted!
After reading this, I remembered the stop clip on the end of the last/third screw (first stage travel weight) had popped off after sliding down the screw and went violently flying through the living room into oblivion. The event was quite comical, or at least I got a big kick out of it. I had a backup clip out of an assorted pack for various automotive repairs around the farm, and it was installed in less than ten. I adjusted it yesterday while bedding the rifle, and have been shooting ever since.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Should I purchase 5.53mm pellets or 5.55mm pellets? I imagine one provides a tighter fit. Will this negatively affect my barrel?
-
A new trigger issue has arisen, the trigger fully compresses, but the upper hook does not release. It feels like the trigger is sliding past the release. I have disassembled the rifle and inspected the trigger and did not find anything noticeably wrong.
Any ideas.
Your second stage screw has probably smoothed itself a little short.
Screw the rear screw in the blade ½ turn and check if the second stage re-appears.
Also mark the position of the screw in the trigger blade with a white China marker or other medium, SOME screws may back out with vibrations, but the most common case is the parts "wearing into each other" and ending up just a tad short.
Keep us posted!
After reading this, I remembered the stop clip on the end of the last/third screw (first stage travel weight) had popped off after sliding down the screw and went violently flying through the living room into oblivion. The event was quite comical, or at least I got a big kick out of it. I had a backup clip out of an assorted pack for various automotive repairs around the farm, and it was installed in less than ten. I adjusted it yesterday while bedding the rifle, and have been shooting ever since.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Should I purchase 5.53mm pellets or 5.55mm pellets? I imagine one provides a tighter fit. Will this negatively affect my barrel?
How did you bed the rifle and did you use anything to cover the blueing? Just curious. ::) ::)
-Y
-
@yogi - Oh, most definitely. I used window sealing tape.
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/building-supplies/weather-stripping-and-window-film/weather-stripping/5666730 (https://www.acehardware.com/departments/building-supplies/weather-stripping-and-window-film/weather-stripping/5666730)
It does a pretty good job, and can be purchased at most hardware stores. It adheres well to the metal, the air bubbles can be pushed out with ease, and the tape has a nice stretchy property to it. The stretchiness helps when I then turn around and bake the epoxy in a make shift heat tent I constructed for several hours.
The bedding could use a few touch ups to smooth over a few pockets that didn't quite get thoroughly covered.
Did you see my question? I am unsure of what diameter pellets I should be ordering. 5.53mm or 5.55mm?
-
Should I purchase 5.53mm pellets or 5.55mm pellets? I imagine one provides a tighter fit. Will this negatively affect my barrel?
Oversized pellets will not affect the barrel, but they will affect accuracy.
You will need to test BOTH and let the barrel tell you what it wants.
;-)
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
-
I still have concerns over a noticed defect in the rifling of the barrel, that occurred after the first week of ownership.
Saying this, I do not know what happened today, but all of a sudden the rifle really came into form. I started to hit my targets like I used to, and my groupings were tight again. I guess I must have finally thrashed the evil spirit out of it or something. Even later on, while shooting at silhouettes from 50yds, I couldn't miss.
-
I still have concerns over a noticed defect in the rifling of the barrel, that occurred after the first week of ownership.
Saying this, I do not know what happened today, but all of a sudden the rifle really came into form. I started to hit my targets like I used to, and my groupings were tight again. I guess I must have finally thrashed the evil spirit out of it or something. Even later on, while shooting at silhouettes from 50yds, I couldn't miss.
Shooters, the same as rifles, get "run in"
;-)
Congrats on having learned your gun. Do not be disheartened if some days you are "off"
Things happen. . .
HM
-
Just wanted to attach some velocity numbers I collected recently for Vortek to aid in the development of their new spring for Diana 34 EMS. It is incredible what a difference quality makes in the variation of pellet velocity.
Also, I wanted to attach what I believed to be an incredible set I shot yesterday. I shot these from a standing position around 5:45AM, which was the beginning of daybreak, @ 75yds in 12MPH wind.
(https://i.imgur.com/EiUT3ko.jpg)
-
You shot that standing at 75 yards?!? With a 12 MPH wind?!?
Hats off!
Dang fine shooting... Congrats! :D
Jesse
-
WOW!
I am officially impressed.
;-)
Congrats!
HM