GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: nervoustrigger on April 03, 2020, 12:36:14 AM
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Hey guys, this is a little observation I wanted to share with you...something that seems to sidestep the need for a bunch of seasoning shots after a cleaning.
This is from today. First up is a .22 cal QB79 HPA conversion fitted with a choked LW barrel. This barrel isn't too bad after a cleaning. It normally needs about 10 pellets through it for the POI to stabilize. With wax applied, it groups straight away. This is the first 5 pellets at 30 yards:
(https://i.imgur.com/hNKUVZD.jpg)
If it weren't for that cantankerous little guy to the left, it would have been right around MoA. No hard feelings, they're Daisy pellets after all.
Up next is a .177, also a choked LW. This is a barrel I thought I had damaged somehow the first time I cleaned it. Pellets were going all over the place and then it finally started settling down after 30 pellets were through it. I've repeated it twice more so I know it's not a fluke.
Here it is today after a clean and wax. It falls in line with less than 5 pellets:
(https://i.imgur.com/TKsl3Ki.jpg)
Yes, it made a sub-MoA group with wadcutters at 30 yards. No, I can't do that every time :) It was dead calm today and I was uncommonly locked in.
If you want to try it, get the bore good and clean and then follow up with a suitable degreasing solvent. I don't think it matters too much what you use, within reason. I use either Kroil or Hoppes 9 for cleaning and then degrease with either mineral spirits or alcohol. Avoid alcohol if it will get on a breech O-ring...it's not good for either Buna-N or Viton (supposedly okay for polyurethane though, which runs counter to the conventional wisdom that the former have good chemical resistance versus polyurethane's being relatively poorer).
For the wax, I've used fancypants One Grand Blitz Wax (caranuba) and good ol' Johnson's Paste Wax at different times and the results appear to be the same. I use a pullthrough cotton patch 5 - 10 times to apply the wax, putting a little more on for each pull to ensure there's enough to coat the full length of the barrel. This topic was being discussed on another forum a couple of days ago and Scott recommends a mop and a back-and-forth scrubbing action so you may want to follow his advice instead. That's my preference too when I can work it from the breech end (e.g. a breakbarrel or a PCP barrel before installation) but my policy is don't put a cleaning rod into the muzzle if it can be helped so patches it is most of the time.
When done, just leave it to dry fully and then get to shooting. No need to run a patch through to buff it out. The first pellet clears it from everywhere except the microscopic pores.
It seems to improve accuracy a little as well, however I haven't done enough A/B comparisons to have developed a strong opinion.
Logically, it may also extend cleaning intervals a bit but again, I haven't tracked it closely enough to be confident in making that claim.
Therefore if you try it, please let me know how it turns out.
[edit] Clarified how wax is applied [/edit]
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Nice observations and actual data. I've never did an before and after. But when I polish a barrel, I always finish with a coat of Johnson paste wax. Used it for lube on cast boolits way back and keeps my table saw shiny. Just seemed like the right thing to do.
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Jason
Thanks for the info,
Question,
Are you using a bore mop with a heavy coating of wax to coat the bore with?
Thanks,
Don
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Thanks guys.
Don, I just use a pullthrough cotton patch 5 - 10 times to apply the wax, putting a little more on the patch after each pull to ensure there's enough to coat the full length of the barrel.
This topic was being discussed on another forum a couple of days ago and Scott recommends a mop and a back-and-forth scrubbing action so you may want to follow his advice instead. That's my preference too when I can work it from the breech end (e.g. a breakbarrel or a PCP barrel before installation) but my policy is don't put a cleaning rod into the muzzle if it can be helped so patches it is most of the time.
When done, just leave it to dry fully and then get to shooting. No need to run a patch through to buff it out. The first pellet clears it from everywhere except the microscopic pores.
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Preaching to the choir on this one ... waxing bores on air guns works & works well !!
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I tried it after a post by Scott. Mikey Likes It! ;D 8)
Knife/Mikey!!!
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How often do you re-apply the wax to the bore? After 100 shots? 1000 shots?
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Following
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I just use it like normal until accuracy eventually diminishes and then repeat the clean & wax.
Hopefully Scott will return and give his take on it.
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I have found with the way I clean my barrels ( ONLY USING ) pull threw BORE SNAKES w/o brushes every 100-200 shots ... Seldom if ever any solvents or liquid cleaners my bore waxing will be good an entire season.
Thinking about it pellet wise in those competition guns where I really need the consistent accuracy .... 3-4 tins being 1500/2000 shots. Field guns easily double that figure or more between re-wax efforts.
More telling is as others have noted, when accuracy starts falling off a through cleaning ( No more lapping or bore polish compounds ) just solvents to get a squeaky clean bore again ... liberal rewax and off the races we go one again.
* One thing to note is having the bore clean with ZERO residue before waxing, this done using a petroleum solvent such as NAPTHA ( Coleman white gas ) or Acetone on the last few SNUG patches threw bore before applying any wax.
You WILL also find your first few WAX patches pushed threw will show more residue having you think bores still a bit dirty ... don't sweat it.
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Question...so if you wax the bore, do you still lube the pellets? If so, should the same kind of wax be used as the pellet lube?
Also, is there much gain to be had by doing this on larger bores like .357?
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In most cases, I do clean and lubricate my pellets with White Lightning bicycle chain wax. I usually try it both ways. I’ll leave them alone if they group demonstrably better as delivered, otherwise I do the clean and wax. It’s rare in my experience that the cleaned and waxed pellets do worse but it has happened. Rare enough that it’s pretty hard to justify trying both ways, just depends on how diligent you want to be.
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With bores waxed ... if lubing pellets as well .. USE WAX and not an oil.
I am no longer waxing pellets FWIW.
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Yeah I guess I should add that the occasional cases where unwaxed pellets have performed better than waxed have been almost exclusively JSBs. With lesser brands, I’ve come to think the improvements have less to do with the wax than it does the act of tumbling in a wire strainer while I’m washing which helps remove loose flashing and diminishes parting lines a bit. JSB’s seldom have any perceptible flashing or parting lines.
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I tried it after a post by Scott. Mikey Likes It! ;D 8)
Knife/Mikey!!!
Works with bullets? How often do you clean & wax?
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I tried it after a post by Scott. Mikey Likes It! ;D 8)
Knife/Mikey!!!
I only did it once Ric. I lapped the barrel and then waxed it. it seemed to do away with the usual break in procedures. May be I will do it again. but it is shooting so darned well! ;) 8)
Works with bullets? How often do you clean & wax?
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I started using Goof Off as the super cleaning agent. Seems to work better than anything else I have tried, then wax.
Unlike goo gone, no citrus acid in it.
Mike
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Good info guys, Thanks!
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Elsewhere the question was asked why using pellets lubricated with wax doesn’t have the same effect, so I’m going to drop my comments in this thread...
I suspect it comes down to volume of wax, method of application, and type of wax. I will attempt to explain in detail why I think these are the key factors. Full disclaimer, I’m using a bit of speculation here but I can definitely attest to the fact I don’t get anything approaching the same results by simply using waxed pellets. That was certainly the case with the .177 LW barrel described above…the one I said needs 30 pellets before it starts grouping.
1. Volume of wax – A wax lube like White Lightning or Krytech has a solvent carrier that evaporates and leaves a trace amount of wax behind so I doubt there’s enough volume to sufficiently coat the bore. Not only that, it’s but a tiny percentage of that already small amount of wax that has an opportunity to be transferred because the pellet is making contact only for small bands at the head and skirt. Then whatever infinitesimal amount is deposited would be focused at the breech end. By the time pellet #1 has traveled an inch, whatever wax it had is already gone and the process of depositing lead has already begun for the remaining 95% of its journey down the bore.
2. Method of application – Since the wax on the pellets is no longer wet and dilute with solvent, it can’t get into the pores of the metal as readily.
3. Type of wax – This comment will be specific to White Lightning because it’s the kind I use, but it seems to be a relatively soft wax. Once dry, it rubs off fairly easily. Now that might actually be advantageous in helping to keep the bore waxed but I doubt it would make a very long-lasting base coat of wax like a hard paste wax.
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Elsewhere the question was asked why using pellets lubricated with wax doesn’t have the same effect, so I’m going to drop my comments in this thread...
I suspect it comes down to volume of wax, method of application, and type of wax. I will attempt to explain in detail why I think these are the key factors. Full disclaimer, I’m using a bit of speculation here but I can definitely attest to the fact I don’t get anything approaching the same results by simply using waxed pellets. That was certainly the case with the .177 LW barrel described above…the one I said needs 30 pellets before it starts grouping.
1. Volume of wax – A wax lube like White Lightning or Krytech has a solvent carrier that evaporates and leaves a trace amount of wax behind so I doubt there’s enough volume to sufficiently coat the bore. Not only that, it’s but a tiny percentage of that already small amount of wax that has an opportunity to be transferred because the pellet is making contact only for small bands at the head and skirt. Then whatever infinitesimal amount is deposited would be focused at the breech end. By the time pellet #1 has traveled an inch, whatever wax it had is already gone and the process of depositing lead has already begun for the remaining 95% of its journey down the bore.
2. Method of application – Since the wax on the pellets is no longer wet and dilute with solvent, it can’t get into the pores of the metal as readily.
3. Type of wax – This comment will be specific to White Lightning because it’s the kind I use, but it seems to be a relatively soft wax. Once dry, it rubs off fairly easily. Now that might actually be advantageous in helping to keep the bore waxed but I doubt it would make a very long-lasting base coat of wax like a hard paste wax.
Agree 100% The wax being on a barrel surface end to end is the only way the wax can help the bore when the pellet passes by .... it must already be present, dry and well adhered to the bores surface. ( Hard wax )
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I just use it like normal until accuracy eventually diminishes and then repeat the clean & wax.
Hopefully Scott will return and give his take on it.
Hiey Jason,
Does using different pellets aftect the wax in the barrel requiring a "re-seasoning"?
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Hi Phil,
To be honest, I can’t say I find much justification to re-season when switching pellets. I routinely shoot groups with multiple different types of pellets, and even though I’ve never experienced a circumstance where I could attribute poor grouping to a lack of seasoning, I remain forever mindful of the possibility. I just don’t see it. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but it’s so subtle that I can’t separate it from other factors like the wind or the limits of my abilities.
In the past I’ve pointed to this page of groups as an example…
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/MGalleryItem.php?id=5781)
It’s 16 different pellets done back-to-back-to-back with no seasoning shots in between. Notice there are 3 sub-MoA groups and 2 others that are close. That’s representative of the best of my abilities. I mean I’ll get the occasional 0.5 MoA group like the JSB 7.3gr you see there but it’s not like I would’ve been ringing off those kinds of groups over and over if I hadn’t been swapping pellets all willy nilly. :)
Bottom line, it seems to me that once a barrel is seasoned shortly after a cleaning, it’s good until such time as it needs cleaning again.
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Scott, I just wanted to say thanks for mentioning that the treatment generally lasts you for a competition season, specifically the part about pulling a bore snake every so often, no solvent needed. Up until now, anytime I’ve seen a change in grouping I would go do a deep clean with wet patches.
I was just out practicing and everything was going great, pretty well drilling the bullseye over and over again. All of the sudden a pellet went 1/2” high. Next one, same thing. And again. Huh? I kept on for a few more shots and it looks like it’s grouping, just higher than expected. After a few more I begin to realize it’s grouping okay but not quite as well as it had been. Okay, maybe it’s time to clean. I thought back to your comment and decided to try just running a couple of dry patches through.
Straight away it went back to the original POI and grouping. I’m kinda curious what the longevity will be with each successive dry cleaning but that’s pretty cool! Quick and easy and I was back at it again.
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Jason,
Your welcome .... As a Competitive shooter your really needing to find an effective way to maintain accuracy while keeping it K.I.S.S. & this technique has worked very well.
** BRUSHLESS bore snake ;) ;)
Scott
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Thanks Guys
I'll try that info................. 8)
Jason
A question for you,
On your target you have shown, you have a code that you have written down, would care to explain your code?
I think, I know what it means, just not sure etc........ Some very decent groups there.
Thank you,
Don
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Don, I think you're calling attention to the vendor and date, right?
PA = Pyramyd Air
WM = Walmart
etc.
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If waxing the bore is good, would ceramic coating the bore be even better?
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If waxing the bore is good, would ceramic coating the bore be even better?
Too abrasive one would think ... while HARD it still is ceramic and micro abrasive.
A good lapping / polishing and then a hard wax to fill micro imperfections and surface fretting is what cuts Down On Abrasion creating less fouling.
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As soon as I have some time will Wax the bore in all my guns.
I have plenty Carnuba oil paste wax
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This is certainly an interesting thread. I wonder what effect plating the bore with titanium nitride would have?
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This is certainly an interesting thread. I wonder what effect plating the bore with titanium nitride would have?
If waxing the bore is good, would ceramic coating the bore be even better?
Why don't you gentlemen START a NEW thread on just that subject seeing if someone is willing to try either and see what comes of it ?
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Too abrasive one would think ... while HARD it still is ceramic and micro abrasive.
A good lapping / polishing and then a hard wax to fill micro imperfections and surface fretting is what cuts Down On Abrasion creating less fouling.
Sounds logical Scott. I've got an atrocious M-Rod barrel around here somewhere that would make the perfect test barrel. When I locate it, and when I get around to it I will do a base line naked, clean, then wax, then strip and clean, then ceramic coat. Then compare results of the three. I'm thinking that while being harder it would be less micro-abrasive. Why? Compare water beading and water sheeting qualities of wax to ceramic. Better water management ability was one of the factors that helped the progression from wax to polymer coatings, and now to ceramic coatings. Water is retained on a surface and refuses to sheet off because of water tension: the greater the surface area (read "abrasiveness") on which to cling the greater the retention of water. If then water sheets better off of ceramic than wax (and ceramic ABSOLUTELY excels beyond wax at shedding road grime "fouling") then shouldn't it follow that ceramic produces a smoother finished surface with less surface area than wax and therefore MIGHT out-perform wax? This is my hypothesis. As for starting a new thread, I certainly will when I test it.
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I tried three coats of Meguiar's G18309 Ultimate Fast Finish, then a top coat of Rennissance wax in my 30 cal Impact barrel liner. This was after the bore was polished. First runs were boringly accurate at 70 yards. Except for some wind effects, all were within 0.5 — 0.75" for 35 of the 40 shots. Wind gusts pushed a few out of line by about an inch.
I figured that the polymer would fill the voids/roughness and the wax would provide the slickness. We'll see how it holds up, but I have to wait for some winds to make it more of a challenge.
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Too abrasive one would think ... while HARD it still is ceramic and micro abrasive.
A good lapping / polishing and then a hard wax to fill micro imperfections and surface fretting is what cuts Down On Abrasion creating less fouling.
Sounds logical Scott. I've got an atrocious M-Rod barrel around here somewhere that would make the perfect test barrel. When I locate it, and when I get around to it I will do a base line naked, clean, then wax, then strip and clean, then ceramic coat. Then compare results of the three. I'm thinking that while being harder it would be less micro-abrasive. Why? Compare water beading and water sheeting qualities of wax to ceramic. Better water management ability was one of the factors that helped the progression from wax to polymer coatings, and now to ceramic coatings. Water is retained on a surface and refuses to sheet off because of water tension: the greater the surface area (read "abrasiveness") on which to cling the greater the retention of water. If then water sheets better off of ceramic than wax (and ceramic ABSOLUTELY excels beyond wax at shedding road grime "fouling") then shouldn't it follow that ceramic produces a smoother finished surface with less surface area than wax and therefore MIGHT out-perform wax? This is my hypothesis. As for starting a new thread, I certainly will when I test it.
Your speaking of SURFACE TENSION with the water beading. Nothing to do with smoothness of surface bite etc ...
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I yield to your superior knowledge of barrel prep. I referenced water tension only as a means to understand the quality of the final surface of a ceramic coat. I know only a little about coefficient of friction, but educate me about how it differs from smoothness of surface bite, and the other etc determinants of wax as they apply to barrel bore prep.
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Hey everyone what would be the approximate drying time for say Johnson’s paste wax?
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Hey everyone what would be the approximate drying time for say Johnson’s paste wax?
In warmer weather an hour or so .... figure inside the barrels there is really no air flow to dry it and evaporate the carrier solvents.
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With all this conversation on barrel waxing I'm curious as to what brands of wax have rendered the best results; accuracy, longevity and any favorites? Does a paste wax work better than a liquid? What about a wax containing polymers or other additives?
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Been using TreWax for hardwood floors for many years now ... Carnuba solids being a hard wax has worked the best.
while my can is old school being TIN and closing like a can of paint, will assume the same product ?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VvC-d0LiL._AC_.jpg)
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Trewax Carnuba paste is what I got too, ........yellow tin can :)
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Trewax Carnuba paste is what I got too, ........yellow tin can :)
Lol .. forgot the YELLOW tin part .. that's the stuff !!
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Been using it on my bows for 2 decades :) :) :)
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I have found with the way I clean my barrels ( ONLY USING ) pull threw BORE SNAKES w/o brushes every 100-200 shots ... Seldom if ever any solvents or liquid cleaners my bore waxing will be good an entire season.
Thinking about it pellet wise in those competition guns where I really need the consistent accuracy .... 3-4 tins being 1500/2000 shots. Field guns easily double that figure or more between re-wax efforts.
More telling is as others have noted, when accuracy starts falling off a through cleaning ( No more lapping or bore polish compounds ) just solvents to get a squeaky clean bore again ... liberal rewax and off the races we go one again.
* One thing to note is having the bore clean with ZERO residue before waxing, this done using a petroleum solvent such as NAPTHA ( Coleman white gas ) or Acetone on the last few SNUG patches threw bore before applying any wax.
You WILL also find your first few WAX patches pushed threw will show more residue having you think bores still a bit dirty ... don't sweat it.
I just picked up this thread..You mention "Bore Snake W/O brush". I haven't been able to find a barrel snake that does not have a built in brush. Are you just clipping off the brush?
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I have found with the way I clean my barrels ( ONLY USING ) pull threw BORE SNAKES w/o brushes every 100-200 shots ... Seldom if ever any solvents or liquid cleaners my bore waxing will be good an entire season.
Thinking about it pellet wise in those competition guns where I really need the consistent accuracy .... 3-4 tins being 1500/2000 shots. Field guns easily double that figure or more between re-wax efforts.
More telling is as others have noted, when accuracy starts falling off a through cleaning ( No more lapping or bore polish compounds ) just solvents to get a squeaky clean bore again ... liberal rewax and off the races we go one again.
* One thing to note is having the bore clean with ZERO residue before waxing, this done using a petroleum solvent such as NAPTHA ( Coleman white gas ) or Acetone on the last few SNUG patches threw bore before applying any wax.
You WILL also find your first few WAX patches pushed threw will show more residue having you think bores still a bit dirty ... don't sweat it.
I just picked up this thread..You mention "Bore Snake W/O brush". I haven't been able to find a barrel snake that does not have a built in brush. Are you just clipping off the brush?
No ... Pulling them out completely. Tho you can purchase some calibers for airgun that come w/o brushes in them
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I picked up some Formula1 high performance carnauba car wax and I would have to say it works pretty well. I cleaned my MMHF barrel today and waxed it with this using a bore mop and then several patches to finish it up and when I went back to shooting it was dead on. I also tried it on a very new barrel last week and couldn't really see the results but after shooting that gun this week end I think it's coming around as well.
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I picked up some Formula1 high performance carnauba car wax and I would have to say it works pretty well. I cleaned my MMHF barrel today and waxed it with this using a bore mop and then several patches to finish it up and when I went back to shooting it was dead on. I also tried it on a very new barrel last week and couldn't really see the results but after shooting that gun this week end I think it's coming around as well.
CAR WAX IS NOT the correct product ... IMO
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Thanks Scott, I'll have to order some off the internet.
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I guess I have always just cleaned and lubed my pellets, so never found cleaning the barrel a necessity. I would go for years this way and only cleaned the barrel & bore out of guilt...
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Found some Johnson's paste wax... do over lol. I seen the carnauba wax on the Formula1 tin and figured it'd work. Now I have the right stuff.
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CAR WAX IS NOT the correct product ... IMO
You are 100% correct because most car waxes have abrasives in it to remove dead oxidized paint as it applies a protective wax coating..
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I've been shooting a couple of the QB HPA conversions quite a bit lately and they finally started hinting at needing a cleaning. Gave them each a clean with Hoppe's #9, degrease with acetone, and wax with Johnson's.
First shot from the .177 (OEM barrel) at 30 yards using a RWS Supermag wadcutter:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZjUFoOK.jpg)
First shot from the .22 (LW barrel) at 30 yards using a RWS Super Field dome:
(https://i.imgur.com/INSFSIu.jpg)
Seasoning shots? Who needs 'em?
Not quite sure regulator creep is much of a problem either. :)
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Doesn't look like any seasoning is needed Jason. Awesome.
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This post was right on time for me. thanks for bringing it back to the top.
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I'm so confused. :o :(
I recently finished reading & collating a long GTA thread about gun cleaning, in which the overwhelming consensus was that cleaning the bore with a brass brush was the BEST way to do it. - Which surprised me since everything I'd read up to that point said to just lightly clean with soaked cloths. Members even talked about serious improvements in accuracy, theoretically because they were cleaning the rifling deeper than a simple "pull" system could do.
It was even suggested (strongly and my several members) to occasionally LAP the barrel.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92999.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92999.0)
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Now here's this thread saying the exact opposite! I was just about to order a Tipton rod & some attachments. Now I don't know WHAT to do.
My head hurts .......
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Also -
If waxing the bore is really the ideal situation, then wouldn't you want that bore 100% clean before waxing, so the wax can fill-in all the microscopic pores, and also so it lasts longer? If that's the case (I have no idea) then just wiping with cloth pellets certainly isn't optimal.
Also, how it does the wax NOT fill-in the rifling?
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Well I can only speak for my own experience. I've had (and have) dozens of air rifles, none of which have ever required anything other than snug cotton pull-throughs to become clean. The cleaning agents being Goo-Gone, WD-40, Kroil, Hoppes #9 and probably a couple of others at times over the few years I've been messing with airguns. Granted, most of the barrels were given a J-B regimen early on, and I don't shoot slugs very much...either one or both of those could play a role. I also tend to clean any time accuracy begins to drift so I suppose they just never get bad enough to need something more aggressive.
If waxing the bore is really the ideal situation, then wouldn't you want that bore 100% clean before waxing, so the wax can fill-in all the microscopic pores, and also so it lasts longer?
Yes and yes :) If it is necessary to use a brush to achieve that, by all means use one. It hasn't been necessary in my experience. If lead is tenaciously caked onto the bore, you can pick it out with the naked eye by viewing the barrel from both directions with light behind it. A bore scope is nice but not required.
Also, how it does the wax NOT fill-in the rifling?
It forms an infinitesimal surface film that gets wiped away almost immediately, leaving only trace amounts in the microscopic pores of the steel. It's nowhere near thick enough or durable enough to influence the land/groove relationship.
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Very interesting topic gentlemen, thank you all. I am very new to the air shooting hobby and after watching the YouTube folks I was under the impression that Ballistol is the "be all, end all, fix it all, lube it all" answer to air gun maintenance. Don't get me wrong, as a novice I quickly ordered it from Amazon.... good Lord, does this stuff staink! Now, reading this thread, I see I can use my old Hoppes #9 (but I have some Goo-Gone if that's better) followed by mineral spirits or acetone, followed by wax. I'm confused (not unusual) by the J B treatment mentioned by @nervoustrigger -what is that? My two rifles are Benjamin break barrels so no worries about messing up seals and such, just take them off before cleaning and put them back on after a suitable amount of searching and cursing 'cause they fell off the table. Now, finally, the wax! I gather it needs to be wood/furniture wax with a good content of Carnauba wax if the genuine article is not available.
Please feel free to correct me and point out my mistakes.
Thank you in advance ,
Ted
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Brewbear, I of course am even more confused than you. :(
But one thing to mention about wax:
Some wax has silicone in it, and some does not. I assume that could make a difference.
AFAIK, most car waxes do have silicone, but high end furniture wax (like renaissance Wax) does not.
I think also that some waxes are harder than others. (Some contain beeswax & so are softer.) Some may contain parafin or petroleum distillates, and so would likely be harder.
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Jb treatment is JB bore paste. Its used to polish the barrel.
On the bronze brush. I use them on a new barrel to scrub them clean before polishing. Especially if they took the slow boat from china. And, to remove any trace of lead before polishing a barrel. In most cases, after a good polishing. The use of a brush is not needed to clean the barrel unless you got a real stinker to begin with.
I use jb bore paste. Followed by mothers mag aluminum polish. And finish up with a coat of wax.
After that. It usually only takes a few pull through patches to clean your barrels when you see fit. At that time, another coat of wax and your good to go.
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^ Rod's description aligns closely with my approach.
The J-B barrel treatment is described in more detail here
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555.msg156089862#msg156089862 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555.msg156089862#msg156089862)
Like he says, a one-time effort to smooth the bore yields long-term benefits. The barrel will need cleaning less often, and it will come clean more easily. With a subsequent application of wax, it's not necessary to do a deep clean so often...intermediate cleanings with a simple dry patch will restore accuracy.
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So my girlfriend called me up tonight and said, "Hey baby, I'm feeling really lonely. Why don't you come on over?"
But I replied, "Sorry, Doll face. I'm gonna' stay in tonight and wax my bore."
She wasn't thrilled.
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OK, that was too easy. :(
But seriously - Now I understand, (thanks to Jason & RDB)
However, I'm not sure this will work any better than my standard practice of coating my slugs with (teflon-based) Tri-Flow.
That works amazingly (increased accuracy and slightly increased velocity) and I have never even fully cleaner my barrel. (Just cloth pulls with Ballistol.)
I guess I'll be ordering the Tipton rod and JB paste, etc after all now. But once my barrel is squeaky clean, I'm thinking I'll once again use the Tri-Flow. It's definitely more slippery than carnuba wax, fill the microscopic pores, and does not easily wear off.
Any thoughts on this, or reasons to talk me into the wax after all?
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And if waxing is still king, this stuff might be even better than Treewax, as Treewax is a blend whereas this appears to be 100% carnuba, plus a hard liquifier:
https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6 (https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6)
Or maybe just get the flakes, and melt them or something?
https://www.amazon.com/Luxuriant-Sparkle-Beauty-Products-Carnauba-Natural-Vegan-8oz/dp/B01MSDQ0ZW/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618984145&s=home-garden&sr=1-2 (https://www.amazon.com/Luxuriant-Sparkle-Beauty-Products-Carnauba-Natural-Vegan-8oz/dp/B01MSDQ0ZW/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618984145&s=home-garden&sr=1-2)
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And if waxing is still king, this stuff might be even better than Treewax, as Treewax is a blend whereas this appears to be 100% carnuba, plus a hard liquifier:
https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6 (https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6)
It says "combustable", maybe from the turpentine, so watch out for deseling.
Hunter
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And if waxing is still king, this stuff might be even better than Treewax, as Treewax is a blend whereas this appears to be 100% carnuba, plus a hard liquifier:
https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6 (https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6)
It says "combustable", maybe from the turpentine, so watch out for deseling.
Hunter
The carrier that liquefies the wax allowing application QUICKLY evaporates. ZERO chance of dieseling IMO.
Being the individual who presented BORE WAXING to the air gun community unintentionally a few years ago. ( as a tuner had been doing so for many years ) it's process came to public knowledge after years of tidbit parts and pieces of the process finally culminated as a W T F is the process and the why for ??? being shared with a few others who matter of fact asked. Had no problem with it being shared, tho was not going to state such info openly.
There are some KEY aspects of whats required and here is list as i feel is priority.
PROVEN barrel that is by in large accurate.
LAPPING of bore being in many instances more aggressive than JB paste offers.
Best finish provided by @ 400 grit lap compounds and NOT high polished !
Leade & Crown + transfer path ( PCP's ) correctly done.
CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN bore after said work ... I'm talking near surgical clean !! *Personally use NAPTHA making sure Zero oils or solvents used previous are on bore surface or within the microscopic fretting of bore surface.
LIBERAL Tre-wax on a patch using a round jag tip & hard / coated cleaning rod having patch a SNUG FIT TO BORE
Back & forth strokes from either end ... Mop the bore wet with wax !!!
* What we're doing is burnishing the wax INTO the microscopic frets in the bores surface filling the microscopic voids pellet lead gets into and sticks on.
LET DRY for a 1/2 hour min in warm weather. longer is actually better. We want wax to harden !
Wipe excess wax off crown and leade / transfer areas.
NO NEED TO PUT A DRY PATCH DOWN BORE ..... Shoot a few pellets and any excess wax in the bore instantly removed !!
While others have played and found successes doing it other ways, this ABOVE is what MOTORHEADS AG TUNING has done for years and it works !! Results personally & professionally speak volumes.
Scott S
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Scott. If you dint mind, whats your preferred 400 grit lapping compound?
I have a 700mm Taipan barrel showing up soon and would like to give it the full treatment.
Thanks.
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Scott. If you dint mind, whats your preferred 400 grit lapping compound?
I have a 700mm Taipan barrel showing up soon and would like to give it the full treatment.
Thanks.
I'll leave it that .... sorry :-X
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Scott. If you dint mind, whats your preferred 400 grit lapping compound?
I have a 700mm Taipan barrel showing up soon and would like to give it the full treatment.
Thanks.
I'll leave it that .... sorry :-X
No problem sir.
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While others have played and found successes doing it other ways, this ABOVE is what MOTORHEADS AG TUNING has done for years and it works !! Results personally & professionally speak volumes.
Scott S
Yes Scott,
Thanks for sharing your "Barrel Lapping & Waxing" method with me back in 2016 8).
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Scott. If you dint mind, whats your preferred 400 grit lapping compound?
I have a 700mm Taipan barrel showing up soon and would like to give it the full treatment.
Thanks.
I'll leave it that .... sorry :-X
Thanks for sharing as much as you have already! You guys are giving me more ideas of what to do with time I don't have :P
I have seen Renaissance wax mentioned a few times and thought I'd chime in on too. The clock guys love the stuff as a pure hard wax with a simple solvent to make application possible. Some will use it instead of lacquer on polished brass, which is why I bought it. Carnauba wax is a hard biological wax (as opposed to a petroleum based wax like Renaissance); the different products out there using it will do so to different proportions to solvents and other waxes to make their blend. (Scott named his favorite above.)
Reading elsewhere about waxes on the outside of guns was almost a draw--everyone had a favorite, but those that got technical came back to carnauba and Renaissance frequently.
For what it is worth, carnauba wax gives a shinier finish than Renaissance. Cost was also brought up--Renaissance isn't cheap, but it is comparable to a couple ounces of JB bore cleaner from what I see. (And that little 65 gram can will last quite a while too.)
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Interesting. Some good info in this thread, thanks guys.
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Scott. If you dint mind, whats your preferred 400 grit lapping compound?
I have a 700mm Taipan barrel showing up soon and would like to give it the full treatment.
Thanks.
I'll leave it that .... sorry :-X
Thanks for sharing as much as you have already! You guys are giving me more ideas of what to do with time I don't have :P
I have seen Renaissance wax mentioned a few times and thought I'd chime in on too. The clock guys love the stuff as a pure hard wax with a simple solvent to make application possible. Some will use it instead of lacquer on polished brass, which is why I bought it. Carnauba wax is a hard biological wax (as opposed to a petroleum based wax like Renaissance); the different products out there using it will do so to different proportions to solvents and other waxes to make their blend. (Scott named his favorite above.)
Reading elsewhere about waxes on the outside of guns was almost a draw--everyone had a favorite, but those that got technical came back to carnauba and Renaissance frequently.
For what it is worth, carnauba wax gives a shinier finish than Renaissance. Cost was also brought up--Renaissance isn't cheap, but it is comparable to a couple ounces of JB bore cleaner from what I see. (And that little 65 gram can will last quite a while too.)
Yes, thanks, Scott. Extremely helpful.
----------------
I Gotta' mention again that most waxes are a blend of some kind. I'm a woodworker, and use Ren wax all the time, as it looks great, but it's not as hard & durable as some others, like a bowling alley wax I have.
I also thought maybe paraffin would be good to try, but apparently it's less hard & durable than Carnuba. (And can even flake off.)
Although I'm STILL not sure I want to try wax as opposed to my "tried & true" teflon spray, if I do try wax it will likely be those 100% carnuba pellets. No other wax or blend is as hard nor as durable, even if they work well for this application.
As Scott mentioned, I'd use some distillate that evaporates off, like xylene. Or maybe just heat it up in a double boiler. Pure Carnuba melts at 185 degrees. Come to think on it, maybe also heat up the barrel with a hair dryer first, to really open up those pores. Then apply the hot, melted pure Carnuba.
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Think of waxing as a way of eliminating fouling shots after you have cleaned your barrels with your favorite regimen. As Jasons targets shown.....no fouling shots needed. Right where it was supposed to be.
If it takes a dozen or more shots before the gun starts producing groups and settling down. Waxing may be worth the time.
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First and foremost, THAN YOU Scott @Motorhead for sharing your methods. Now a question for all of you folks: is there a consensus on a wax brand that works best for this process? I tried to buy Trewax but it is not being sold in California!
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Well, ive used Johnson's paste wax for years on my table saws and guns. Even used it as cast boolit lube for the 45-70. Seems to work fine in my air rifle barrels.
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And if waxing is still king, this stuff might be even better than Treewax, as Treewax is a blend whereas this appears to be 100% carnuba, plus a hard liquifier:
https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6 (https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6)
It says "combustable", maybe from the turpentine, so watch out for deseling.
Hunter
The carrier that liquefies the wax allowing application QUICKLY evaporates. ZERO chance of dieseling IMO.
Being the individual who presented BORE WAXING to the air gun community unintentionally a few years ago. ( as a tuner had been doing so for many years ) it's process came to public knowledge after years of tidbit parts and pieces of the process finally culminated as a W T F is the process and the why for ??? being shared with a few others who matter of fact asked. Had no problem with it being shared, tho was not going to state such info openly.
There are some KEY aspects of whats required and here is list as i feel is priority.
PROVEN barrel that is by in large accurate.
LAPPING of bore being in many instances more aggressive than JB paste offers.
Best finish provided by @ 400 grit lap compounds and NOT high polished !
Leade & Crown + transfer path ( PCP's ) correctly done.
CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN bore after said work ... I'm talking near surgical clean !! *Personally use NAPTHA making sure Zero oils or solvents used previous are on bore surface or within the microscopic fretting of bore surface.
LIBERAL Tre-wax on a patch using a round jag tip & hard / coated cleaning rod having patch a SNUG FIT TO BORE
Back & forth strokes from either end ... Mop the bore wet with wax !!!
* What we're doing is burnishing the wax INTO the microscopic frets in the bores surface filling the microscopic voids pellet lead gets into and sticks on.
LET DRY for a 1/2 hour min in warm weather. longer is actually better. We want wax to harden !
Wipe excess wax off crown and leade / transfer areas.
NO NEED TO PUT A DRY PATCH DOWN BORE ..... Shoot a few pellets and any excess wax in the bore instantly removed !!
While others have played and found successes doing it other ways, this ABOVE is what MOTORHEADS AG TUNING has done for years and it works !! Results personally & professionally speak volumes.
Scott S
-
Thanks guys. It's a rainy nasty day in SC. I think I will go clean and wax my Prod, maybe my Avenger too. I have Johnson's on hand for my table saw so I will use that and I think I'll use brake cleaner before waxing. These are likely not optimum but seem like the closest I have without a trip to the store. Better than watching TV...
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Non-chlorinated brake cleaner and Johnson's paste wax is exactly what I used. The guns seem to shoot smoother and quieter. The accuracy was spot on with the first pellet. It worked so well that I have now waxed all eight of my airgun barrels.
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Thanks again everyone for sharing this information. Going to be doing some bore cleaning and waxing on a few barrels, when the products arrive. 8)
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Renaissance wax is my favorite wax for firearms, furniture, leather, granite and about anything you can think of. It is used in many museums. On the hardness scale it is the hardest. I have found on furniture it lasts around 6 months. It will make a leather coat look like new. Cons on Renaissance is no UV protection and low gloss. I have a troubling barrel, think I will try this bore cleaning and wax today,
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BTW, JFYI, SC Johnson Paste Wax has been discontinued.
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I use the next best thing Turtle Wax, no signs of sluggishness ;D
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And if waxing is still king, this stuff might be even better than Treewax, as Treewax is a blend whereas this appears to be 100% carnuba, plus a hard liquifier:
https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6 (https://www.amazon.com/Lundmark-Wax-Paste-Clear-Lb/dp/B000BYAQC2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=100%25+carnauba+wax&qid=1618983907&s=home-garden&sr=1-6)
It says "combustable", maybe from the turpentine, so watch out for deseling.
Hunter
The carrier that liquefies the wax allowing application QUICKLY evaporates. ZERO chance of dieseling IMO.
Being the individual who presented BORE WAXING to the air gun community unintentionally a few years ago. ( as a tuner had been doing so for many years ) it's process came to public knowledge after years of tidbit parts and pieces of the process finally culminated as a W T F is the process and the why for ??? being shared with a few others who matter of fact asked. Had no problem with it being shared, tho was not going to state such info openly.
There are some KEY aspects of whats required and here is list as i feel is priority.
PROVEN barrel that is by in large accurate.
LAPPING of bore being in many instances more aggressive than JB paste offers.
Best finish provided by @ 400 grit lap compounds and NOT high polished !
Leade & Crown + transfer path ( PCP's ) correctly done.
CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN bore after said work ... I'm talking near surgical clean !! *Personally use NAPTHA making sure Zero oils or solvents used previous are on bore surface or within the microscopic fretting of bore surface.
LIBERAL Tre-wax on a patch using a round jag tip & hard / coated cleaning rod having patch a SNUG FIT TO BORE
Back & forth strokes from either end ... Mop the bore wet with wax !!!
* What we're doing is burnishing the wax INTO the microscopic frets in the bores surface filling the microscopic voids pellet lead gets into and sticks on.
LET DRY for a 1/2 hour min in warm weather. longer is actually better. We want wax to harden !
Wipe excess wax off crown and leade / transfer areas.
NO NEED TO PUT A DRY PATCH DOWN BORE ..... Shoot a few pellets and any excess wax in the bore instantly removed !!
While others have played and found successes doing it other ways, this ABOVE is what MOTORHEADS AG TUNING has done for years and it works !! Results personally & professionally speak volumes.
Scott S
@Motorhead or anyone else....I have read through several threads (including this one) on the topic of barrel waxing.
Is there a preferred barrel break-in procedure that should be performed with a brand new barrel, prior to (whatever pre-wax polishing regimen) and waxing?
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I am using a LAPPING compound on bore between an initial solvent cleaning and a more through solvent final cleaning before waxing.
At no time do I use JB bore paste.
All I'm saying ...
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Thanks. I understand keeping tricks of the trade a secret. And I did read and understand previous posts stating that you are unwilling to share further details on your lapping process.
But for the sake of clarity....
I wasn't fishing for lapping compound grit/s and/or brands, or lapping procedure/techniques before waxing.
All things mechanical have some sort of break-in process (in my opinion). I was curious about what you (or anyone else) might think that process is, for an airgun barrel that is scheduled to go through the lapping and waxing process. Maybe something along the lines of: shoot "X" number of shots before even considering lapping and waxing. Pull a patch or two every "Y" number of shots (with/without chemicals). Watch out for "this", and make sure you do "that".
I'm just trying to do the best I can upfront, and get the most out of my latest acquisition.
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ONLY a barrel that shoots decently, or by pushing a pellet shows a correct fit and uniform bore size generally are worth the trouble.
Have a decent barrel, the lapping process essentially does any break in wear X1000 a pellet may even do.
Lapp, wax & shoot it .... No break in after the process required. If it is going shoot well it generally will !!
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I have lapped firearms but it is much more forgiving due to the obturation of the projectile.I use moly bore paste in every thing with rifling.
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I try not to over-process anything, but based on before/after results all of my airgun barrels get a treatment very similar to what Jason, Scott, and others have openly shared over the years.
I am a firm believer in most barrels benefiting from a tapered lapping, polishing, waxing regimen. If a barrel requires frequent cleaning, IMO, it will benefit from this type of treatment.
Wax, don't wax barrels, lube/don't lube ammo. Use what works best for you.
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I've had good luck polishing and waxing a couple different barrels. It really dialed in my 25 cal gaska barrel.1:18 twist rate. I also have a 22 barrel from Jim that has had the same process done.