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Author Topic: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?  (Read 5653 times))

Offline rws45user

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2021, 09:06:45 PM »
I don't think the seal collapsing is just  on my  seal . I got the collapsed  photo from one of your post Re: Disassembly of IZM Baikal 46M to change the piston seal.   But mine looked exactly  like  the one you post  so I'm sure its happening to all the seals in this gun . I don't know how other parachute seals work  but I thought  they should wear on the outside that's touching the cylinder  not  collapse in  on itself .  I shoot a lot  because I'm still shooting matched  and I shoot pellet to practice . I probably shoot  1,000  pellets  a month  I try to shoot 10 pellets   4 times a day  so I can't complain  about  the seal at all . Even when I let it get down to  300  it was still shooting  great and if I wouldn't have put it on the chrony  I would have never guessed it . It was definitely a very slow decline . I only use the gun for 10 meter shooting  and at that distance  with 300 fps  it was shooting great . I was thinking about  leaving pressure in the cylinder also but I wasn't sure how the gun worked . Does the  air  that is under pressure  while cocking it go into a chamber with a one way valve  and is  trapped  so it doesn't matter  how long you wait to shoot and you don't lose any  pressure around the seal ? I did a few test  when it was  at 300 . I shot it over the chrony  right after I cocked it  and  with different time lengths  because in my shooting routine I shoot , touch  my phone app  45 second  count down timer , cock and load the  gun  and set it down , when the timer changes color at 15 seconds I get  my grip  and  when it turns red at 5 seconds to go I raise the gun aim and fire and repeat . So the gun stays cocked  and under pressure for  about 45 seconds between shots . I waited  for  a minute  and shot it over the chrony  and there was no  change  between the  shot right away and a minute  wait time  I tried it again at 2 minute  wait time  before a shot with no difference  . So even with it down to 300 fps  I wasn't losing any air  so my shots were  consistent .  My seal when  I pulled it out was straight up and down with no flair  at all so I was surprised it was building up pressure at all . I'm going to keep a eye on the chrony  and my shot count  with the rubber band in there and see how it goes . I'm hoping this time  the seal will wear out  on the  out side  and I get another 20 years of shooting with it . I'll be 81 years old shooting my izh with the  same seal  that came with the gun  . That's crazy .  I have pretty good luck with seals in airguns  I will have to say . I have a rws model 45 hence my name on here in 1987 and I still l have the same leather seal in it  and the same breach seal with 2 layers of tape behind it. So its going on 34 years of use  with a leather seal . I'm down below 800 now with 7.9 grains so I think its time for the conversion kit  to synthetic. I'm starting to get some  big spreads of 800 down to 760 . I already have the  kit and a new spring  I just need to do it  .

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2021, 09:37:35 PM »
I am sure that all the installed 46M seals of that pattern and material gradually collapse over time - not from shooting.

Even a leaky seal will capture air, if you move the piston fast enough.  Once there is some pressure, the seal stops leaking and can generate more pressure.  However, speed related compression is undesirable, as it is too easy to introduce variability.  If you are very consistent in your charging motion, even a partially leaky sealed pistol could probably shoot OK.

If your pistol can hold air with no change in velocity for a minute, when you usually take 30 seconds to make the shot, then there is no problem.  If it will hold air with no velocity drop for 5 minutes, then even better.

I have taken to keeping my 46M charged, based on Frank in Fairfield's experience.  I was hesitant to do that, because I had tried it with a Beeman P17.  That, extruded the valve O-ring into the valve seat and cause the pistol to malfunction.  It would neither discharge, nor charge after that until I had attempted many dry fires.  Then it abruptly corrected itself.

So, keeping a SSP charged helping or not depends on the whole system.  I think that with the 46M, there is no downside.  I have not tried to measure velocity after keeping mine charge for a day, but I do know that it still makes a good pop after being charged for a week.  Probably not as loud as charging it and dry firing immediately.

Good on you for shooting the same pistol for so long.  The fact that the rest of the pistol lasted so well is impressive.  Of course, some people can break anything by applying more force than necessary.  I know that opening the 46M breech via the end of the cocking stoke feels like one is abusing the pistol to some. It is good to know that it does not mind any force sufficient to operate; repeated 200,000+ times (if you have been shooting 1000 pellets a month for 20 years).

What lubricant do you use on the piston seal and cocking linkage?
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Offline rws45user

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2021, 09:21:19 PM »
I only use tread mill 100 % silicone  lube  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IX28D0U/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B01IX28D0U&pd_rd_w=zDkiO&pf_rd_p=b34bfa80-68f6-4e86-a996-32f7afe08deb&pd_rd_wg=NOE0h&pf_rd_r=79177YDVDBYYAGXGA8K6&pd_rd_r=8f88451d-d779-4479-8736-75d2909fdcd8&smid=A2JWZOZUWVCPDC&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFYQ0lMS0VVN1A3MjImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTEwMzIwMDJVSzlIVFBLRzNURUQmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDQ2MTIyNzNWMjFSSUNZOFJETkgmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl . It works the best for when rubber and  metal  come in contact . The  lube keeps the rubber  from wearing  it just slides over it . I don't use much at all . I put a few drops  every 500 shots or so  around the cylinder walls and  cock it back and forth a bunch of times  I also add it  in the hole where the air  comes out  of  to try to lube up the o-rings that's down in there . After I add a drop or 2 in that hole I cock and shoot without pellets  at a  box until  the lube stops spraying out . after that I clean the barrel with my snake rope barrel cleaner . I also add the lube  inside the small tube that's just behind  the air  hole   Here is a photo of  it . Its a redish color bar that goes into a tube .  Over the years I have noticed  that this metal will try to rust  or what looks like rust I'm not sure  but  I get in there and keep that as clean as I can  and after I clean it I put lube in that cylinder raise the  arm up and down  and clean it out  again and add more lube till   it looks clean . I think its really cheap metal  or maybe just dissimilar metal and its causing whats called galvanic corrosion because even with the lube and  good low humility  room I stay in with the gun  I can't see it being anything else ,  but as long as I keep it flushed out and clean every 500 shots  or so   It seems to keep on shooting pretty good . I have my own business  so when I  need to stand up and  move around  I'll take 10 quick shots  as often as I can   so some days it more and some days it less  but yes the shot count does add up . You would think I could hit where I wanted by now but some days I think I'm getting worse instead of better . It sounds like a lot but 2 tins of 500  is 1000 shots . which is  not even close to what  I should be shooting . To most 10 meter shooters  that's just  warmup  amount  of pellets . I use the cheaper daisy pellets  to practice with so your only talking about 5 dollars a month for pellets . For 5 dollars  a month I have a lot of fun shooting . Its about the cheapest shooting sport you can do . I really like shooting so I have sure got my 250 dollars worth of fun from this gun . They started selling this gun again but under  the air venture name  and its a lot higher price than what I paid for it  ,but even at its 599.00 price tag  I would tell anyone to buy it . Its so worth it if you want  a single pump 500 fps gun that will last you forever and put a pellet in the same hole if you can hold it there .
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 09:59:27 PM by rws45user »

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2021, 09:55:34 PM »
Well, if your lube has worked for 20 years, it must be good.

The rear of the piston slides metal on metal in the compression tube.  Some might argue that silicone oil is not the best for lubing that.  It can't be worse than leaving the parts dry.

Many SSP airguns list non detergent motor oil to lube the piston.  Detergent oil or CLP could very well denature the rubber seals.  Some use ATF because that conditions the seals.  I think a seal neutral oil is better.

I just use straight mineral oil, sold as a laxative and in baby oil; so non-toxic.

Some people use a grease of some kind.  I like oil here because I think it flushes out dust that gets drawn in with the air, rather than accumulating it.


Unfortunately, shooting well becomes harder as we age.  The important thing is that you are having fun.
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Offline rws45user

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2021, 10:34:51 PM »
I didn't realize that the back of the piston metal  was touching the cylinder . I will start adding some mineral  oil to the metal  piston . I was just trying to lube the seal itself  not the metal piston behind it  . Thanks for that info. On my gun the  metal part that holds the seal is a little smaller than the cylinder so I didn't think it would touch anything as I closed or opened it  . The inside walls of the cylinder  doesn't have any scratch marks or anything . I have never seen any metal  scrapings  from metal to metal wear , but I will add some  of that mineral oil on the  piston metal  so It doesn't  start  doing it . I want to do what ever I can to keep that cylinder nice and smooth . I'm pretty careful when I open and close it  and I do it pretty slow because I'm never in as hurry to  open and close it . I don't want to have to buy another 10 meter  gun so I try my best to take care of what I have . I can't believe  my gun has jumped from 275 .00 to now 600.00 for the same gun . It does have a nice looking grip  on the new guns thats worth 100 bucks right there . I'm left handed  and I could never find a left handed grip for the gun so I made one out of the dental material I have in my lab .  It looks funny put  I formed it from th inside of my hand  so you can see the impression  of my hand in the grip , its a custom fit  just for my hand so I like it  and  I'm use to it now  but I wonder if the new  gun grip comes in left hand . I'll have to give them a call  to see if I can just get the grip .

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2021, 10:44:32 PM »
It may be an idea to add a small amount of moly powder (or grease) to your silicone oil at the rear of the piston.  Mixing silicone and mineral oil may cause one oil to reject the other.

Anyway, if your cylinder is not scored, frosty or worn looking, then your oil is working well enough.  I would hate for you to modify your method, and actually cause a real problem.  See this on mixing silicone and mineral oil:

https://klsummit.com/headlines/2018/mar/faq-what-oils-should-we-avoid-mixing

Quote
The ones that don't mix well, the ones you have to be concerned with, are silicone oils and perfluorinated types (PFAE). These are also synthetic oils, but silicone oils will not mix with standard oils like PAO oils, mineral oils, esters, alkylated naphthalenes, polyglycols and OSP.

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Offline rws45user

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2021, 11:20:56 PM »
I see  thanks.   I didn't know  that .

Offline rws45user

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2021, 12:42:19 AM »
Do you know  where this upgrade kit goes ? Is that the tube I show in the photo  I post before ?  Also  do you know of a video that shows  how to replace  and add this upgrade ? http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/izh-46-valve-upgrade-kit-p/miz46ss90.htm
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 01:08:58 AM by rws45user »

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2021, 01:39:44 AM »

I believe that is the valve body, described as a bushing part number 30 in the attached PDF, from here: https://www.toolfarm.no/ViewFile.aspx?ItemID=890

More images from different angles:  https://airpro.ecrater.com/p/35497975/izh-46-mp-46m-valve-crossbar

Still looking for video instructions to disassemble the valve.  So far, I have found these:  http://www.pilkguns.com/izh46ex-htm/

I have never felt the need to disassemble the gun that far.
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Offline Steyr_Guy

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2021, 10:44:05 PM »
Hi all,

Just got a new MP-46M from Krale and I am trying to follow the collective advice for cleaning and getting it to perform to spec.

I have stripped it down and removed the storage grease. Then I lubricated the seals with RWS silicon air chamber lube and applied RWS spring cylinder oil to the mechanical joints. (Though it sounds like the Mac1 formula my be best for this). I confirmed I wasn't getting any obvious leaks at the breech end with a tissue test.

I then checked the piston engagement so that it is getting the maximum compression without mashing the end of the seal.

After all this I am still shooting around 386-389 fps using 8.2 gr RWS R10 match.

I am now trying the conditioning treatment of leaving the chamber pressurized to form the seal. Hopefully this and maybe general wear in will improve velocities. I can try some lighter pellets too. I do not want to go disassembling the valve assembly yet...

Let me know if I am on the right track or if there is something I have yet to try.

Thanks
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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2021, 11:48:09 PM »
Paul,

Try different pellets.  I like RWS pellets, but have had "slow" 7 grain Meisterkugeln before.  Slow in everything I shot them from.

The only factory "grease" removal I remember from my 46M manual was the preservation oil in the barrel bore.  Expecting you to strip the pistol and remove grease from the compression cylinder seems a bit like asking you to rebuild a new vehicle engine before using it.  I would have taken a few shots before changing anything; although I did shoot perhaps 5 cleaning pellets though mine after I got it.  The first 2 or 3 were wet with mineral oil to wipe out what looked like a pretty clean bore, out of the box.

The user manual is not very specific about the oil for the piston seal - because the risk of dieseling is almost non-existent:  You are not achieving rapid compression, as occurs in a spring airgun.  If I remember correctly, the manual that came with my 46M stated non-solvent "gun oil".   

As the rear of the piston runs metal to metal with the cylinder, silicon oil may not provide the lubrication the metal parts need.  Multi-pump pneumatics often state 30 weight non-detergent motor oil.  Definitely not CLP with solvent.

I just use straight mineral oil for the piston seal on my single or multi-pump pneumatics.  I know that when I apply too much oil to the piston seal, the velocity actually comes down.  Else my 46M does 500 FPS with 7.3 grain pellets.  I don't know what viscosity silicone oil you used, or if it has migrated to the valve and barrel.  If so, then the oil could have reduced the velocity by chocking off the airflow through the valve and transfer port.  Or by increasing viscous drag between pellet and bore.  Just shooting it should eventually clear the oil from the valve and bore - although if it is thick and sticky, this may take a long time.  Or, it could be another problem:

Did you do your tissue breech seal leak test with a pellet loaded?  If not, the air pressure would just escape from the muzzle, without moving the tissue...

I am sure you know that the breech seals are a weak point with this pistol.  If you store it with the breech latched all the way shut, the breech seals take a set.  The resultant leakage will reduce pellet velocity.  When you got your pistol, the breech should have been left with the mechanism just unlatched.  If it was completely closed, someone may have handled the pistol and left it that way.  Anyway, I suspect that leaving it unlatched will see the seals recover somewhat. 

If one of the two breech seals is missing, the pistol my have been fired with the breech not fully latched closed.  There should be a spare under the cardboard flap in the original box.

Are you sure that you increased the compression from the factory setting; rather than reducing it?  By how many quarter turn increments did you change it? To achieve 500 FPS it took me one more 1/4 turn on the adjustment thread from when the piston seal first made light contact with the end of the compression cylinder.  That was two increments from the way it arrived from the factory.

If running the piston seal into the end of the cylinder bothers you; you can fill up the groove in the piston seal face with a sticky grease, so that it takes up air compression volume without running the seal hard into the end of the cylinder.  It might have come that way from the factory.   You just do not want excess grease ending up in the valve or transfer port, or barrel bore - that would reduce velocity.

Just shooting the pistol may condition the piston seal and the poppet valve to seal better.  So, I predict that just using the pistol should increase velocity, but probably not more than 25 FPS - unless there really is too much sticky lube in the valve or bore....
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 12:02:14 AM by subscriber »
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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2021, 01:31:42 AM »
For the storage grease removal, I only disassembled the grips and the forward piston assembly and associated misc parts. I flushed the bore and dried it with felt cleaning pellets. The piston and air chamber I scrubbed and ran some of the RWS lightweight silicon oil over. Some of the lightweight silicon oil may have made its way down to the valve assembly. It's not sneezing any oil that I can perceive, but it may take some repeated shots to get rid of any residue. (The silicon products I got to service my PCPs)

The breech seals are new and uncompressed out of the box. I sealed those with a light coating of silicon grease. The tissue test was performed several times while firing a pellet. I have been keeping the pistol stored with the chamber pressurized and the bolt unlatched. I have the included spares and ordered several more on ebay to be safe.

I did not end up changing the factory setting for compression, since I could feel with further adjustment that I was bottoming out and contacting the end of the piston seal. I sealed the end of the piston seal groove with enough silicon grease that it shouldn't migrate further into the action.

I will get some of the non solvent 30 weight oil, mineral oil, or the Mac1 solution, as those sound better for preserving, sealing, and reducing wear in the piston and valve assembly. I will just have to be careful about how much I use and may need to shoot the excess/residue out. I will check for excess grease too when I replace the oil.

After this is done, I'll shoot some of 7 gr pellets and see where I'm at.

Do you know if the b-square rail is available anywhere for the Izzy? I may just need to keep checking ebay...
Also found the attached pdf on the changes made to the piston design over time, It has some great views of the valve and trigger mech.

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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2021, 03:06:37 AM »
Paul,

I suggest you try a range of different pellets in your pistol.  Mine likes the 8.2 grain Meisterkugeln you are using now.  It achieves the highest power with H&N 7.x grain "Excite" wadcutters.  It even shoots 10.3 grain JSBs at over 400 FPS.

The B-Square rail is scarce because it is no longer made for the 46M.  It seems to be available here:  http://sunopticsusa.com/airgun-scope-mounts-izh-46-mount-sm7900/  That said, with the Air Venture 46M that came on the market recently, the rail may be made in volume again.

Mostly, I am getting dead ends for the rail; such as this:  https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/B_Square_17900_Scope_Base_Weaver_Picatinny_Rail_Fits_IZH_46M/298

Thanks for the link to that PDF.  Someone was looking for that info not long ago.

You can always increase the compression later.  Mine definitely ran the piston seal into the comp chamber end wall firmly to reach 500 FPS.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 03:16:30 AM by subscriber »
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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2021, 04:57:43 AM »
Nice find with the Sun Optics version!  ;D

Special order from B&H, but it looks like it will only take a couple weeks and the price is right. Crossing my fingers.

I'll let you know how the adjustments work once I get some of the other lubricants in.
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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2021, 02:06:27 AM »
Well checking back in after I replaced the silicon oil in the piston, air chamber, and valve assembly with Mac1 valve oil. After conditioning the piston seal by keeping it pressurized, I was able to record a max velocity around 443 FPS with RWS 7.0 gr Meisterkugeln. Below is a rough chart of the velocities I recorded across various brands (RWS, H&N, JSB, Crossman Premier). I might need to adjust the compression to get more speed (factory stock now) or their might be some more wear-in that needs to happen. I've only put maybe 600 rounds through it. I also ordered some 7.4gr excites to test next.

.177 Rough Velocities       
Pellet Weight (gr)   Min  V. (FPS)   Max  V. (FPS)
7.0                           430                    440
7.4                           420                    430
7.6                           415                    425
8.2                           408                    412
8.6                           395                    400
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Re: What muzzle velocity are you getting in your IZH 46M?
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2021, 02:13:27 AM »
Paul,

Your velocities are now within 10 or 15 FPS of what my 46M produced out of the box.  Then I increased the compression by two increments (half a turn on the threaded adjuster).  Then I got either side of 500 FPS with H&N 7.4 grain Excite wadcutters.
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