Cleaning lead fouling?
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Topic: Cleaning lead fouling? (Read 7699 times - 1 votes)
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Greg_E
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Cleaning lead fouling?
«
on:
June 05, 2021, 01:01:50 PM »
Decided to put this in here since we generally have faster speeds and often different types of ammo.
What is a good way to clean lead fouling out of a barrel? While working on another problem, I decided it was time to give the barrel on my Bulldog a good cleaning. After almost 2 hours of pulling Balistol patches, they were finally coming out mostly clean. Pulled out my new borescope to take a look and found that I still have a lot of lead in the barrel.
Aside from a rigid cleaning rod and brass brush, what have you used to clean the lead out? Yes I'm looking for a magical elixir that will wipe right out with a patch, and hopefully not eat o rings.
«
Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 01:04:10 PM by Greg_E
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Lani52
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #1 on:
June 05, 2021, 01:19:54 PM »
I have used the same thing for years. Airgun barrels get transfer leading, lacking heat in airguns from burning powder, they do not vaporize lead and deposit it like firearms do.
So at 1100 FPS, with pure or 40-1 alloy, I found that 30 weight silicone oil on a moderately tight patch, using a jag and a ridged high quality one piece cleaning rod that has a handle that rotates worked best for me, it is also what I lube my cast airgun bullets with.
It is what works for me, but I am sure others have great results from other methods.
Regards,
Roachcreek
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Greg_E
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #2 on:
June 05, 2021, 01:56:01 PM »
Thanks, I'll have to get some jags for my caliber and give it a try.
I'm pretty much just going to powder coat everything after I get this mess sorted out.
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Greg_E
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #3 on:
June 05, 2021, 11:05:00 PM »
Scrubbed with Chore Boy copper scrubbing pad, that got some of it. Scrubbed with J-B Bore Bright, that got some more. Still way too much in there.
Now here is the part that I'm not happy with, the more lead I remove, the more pits and scrapes I uncover. I have a feeling the lead is building up on these pits to get a foothold, and all down hill from there. Wondering if I should order a new barrel and see how it looks inside. I thought the barrel on my Kral looked rough, until I got half way on this Benjamin barrel. Sorry, no new pictures, and after another hour and a half I think I'm giving up for the night.
The borescope is both a blessing and a curse.
«
Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 11:07:11 PM by Greg_E
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ranchibi
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #4 on:
June 05, 2021, 11:30:49 PM »
Greg, I think you're correct about the lead deposits filling in the pitting, most of the fouling should have been removed in your first cleaning...the second proves your theory! I bet if you shoot some lead now, your POI will be way off....that'll seal your theory! LOL!
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Greg_E
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #5 on:
June 06, 2021, 11:47:14 AM »
Things were drifting more and more left, so I hope the poi comes back around.
I did contact Crosman to see if they will discount a barrel, I'm willing to take part of the blame, but not all of it since this is only 1 year old and not more than 250 rounds through it, a large percentage of those have been their Nosler bullets.
Either this was caused during boring, or during rifling from some chips getting caught and digging in. Going to take hours to try and polish the edges of the pits down so that this might stop, if I'm lucky. And it may always lead foul like this, that would turn me off to more Crosman products really fast! They already lost an Akela sale from problems trying to buy direct.
I'll have to get some pictures of the pits before I try to polish them.
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Greg_E
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #6 on:
June 07, 2021, 11:28:49 PM »
Went out yesterday and was stunned because my local Walmart actually had some decent cleaning supplies in stock. Bought a copper or bronze brush and so Hoppes solution. Tonight I spent about 2 hours going though the process. Brush a few strokes, swap until "clean". Brush more, swab more. Did this until the swabs came out sort of clean.
The I got out the J-B Bore Bright and polished a bit, think I could use something a little more aggressive.
Followed up with Ballistol then dry patches. Need to do one more clean on the o ring groove, and check down inside the transfer port to make sure it is clean.
I did run the camera down through after drying, it appears I was wrong, there aren't a large number of defects. But there are still a few places where the linen got pulled and a thread stuck, hopefully those shoot clean and smooth down. I'll be keeping a much closer eye on the inside of this barrel to see if and how fast lead builds up again. If this happened in only 200 rounds, it may need to be cleaned every 50 to try and keep the effort low.
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #7 on:
June 08, 2021, 09:08:24 AM »
The people with the most stubborn bore fouling have one thing in common: Not a preference for
Dos Equis
, but an addiction to using bore scopes.
If an airgun groups well and keeps grouping well, then the fact that there is some lead in the bore is not a detriment. It may actually be what enables it to shoot consistently.
Other than a rough bore from the factory (that can be lapped to be smooth enough, using the right technique), the idea that the barrel must be "perfectly clean" to shoot well is a myth.
The reason so few Amish actually got clinically sick with covid-19 is because they don't watch TV. The flipside is the reason why your barrel might not ever stay clean enough - the ability to see something that is not actually a useful metric.
If you barrel won't group as well as you expect after trying a variety of projectiles and tunes; after checking for loose screws, drifting sights, parallax or the usual suspects; then there is a problem. If the barrel shoots well for 50 shots, then starts throwing flyers, that could also be a problem.
The thing is, if you succeed in removing all the lead down to bare steel, it may take 50 shots before the system is stable enough to group well, and not have the group drift continuously. So, you might have to torture yourself by shooting 100 or 200 shots as you access group stability, without bore scoping the barrel...
If, in your efforts to improve the barrel, you manage to polish a taper into the bore such that it flares towards the muzzle, no amount of cleaning or seasoning shots may ever get it to settle down and shoot to your expectations. All this assumes you are using pellets that don't have a lot of variability in them; thus causing you to chase a barrel defect, when the root cause is a pellet defect.
If you are shooting Crosman pellets, these are made from a high antimony lead alloy and are known for producing stubborn leading in some platforms. Then you may be better off with a pure lead pellet, such as JSB. Or you might lube Crosman pellets to prevent lead from soldering to the bore. Lots of posts about that on this forum...
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #8 on:
June 08, 2021, 09:12:50 AM »
The caliber, projectile type, alloy, brand, diameter, lube and velocity you are shooting at might also be useful details. Have you slugged the barrel? Have you measured the projectile diameters? Is the bore choked? Lead build-up at the choke is not uncommon.
By the way, there is a hint of brown near/under the lead streaks in your bore image. I wonder if that brown is rust, with roughness from pitting.
«
Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 09:33:19 AM by subscriber
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #9 on:
June 08, 2021, 09:31:36 AM »
If your Bulldog is a 9 mm or .357 caliber, tight fitting bullets with grease grooves, buttered generously with JB Compound and shot through the barrel may remove the fouling and smooth out the bore. At the same time, doing so without risk of flaring the bore towards the muzzle.
I recommend at least such fire lapping 5 shots, but not more than 10 before you patch out the bore and take a look. If you don't achieve your cleaning or smoothing goal in 10 shots, repeat. If that still won't cut it, use 5 shots with 360 grit fine valve grinding compound. Then go back to JB Compound to smooth out the striations the 360 grit would have left behind.
Flip the rifle upside down (horizontally) when loading and shooting the gritty projectiles to prevent grit falling down the transfer port into the valve area.
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Greg_E
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #10 on:
June 08, 2021, 10:38:21 AM »
Ok, background. Since subscriber managed to get the rifle in question, I won't bother mentioning it again (it was in the first post) but I guess I should have mentioned it was .357 just to clear up any confusion.
I was testing some new rounds and had a sudden decrease in speed after a stupid mistake going to fill the tank. The bolt was open and I hit the trigger. the next rounds were immediately lower speed by about 200fps. I put another 12 shots down range and decided that was enough. I pulled it apart and looked at hammer spring, hammer, sear, bolt. Thought was that breach o ring must be the issue. Since the barrel needs to come out to replace it, I thought it was time to give it a good cleaning, and since the borescope was new, give it a look. I should have grabbed pictures before I started working on it, it was fouled to the point of cutting the grooves tighter. I've also been noticing that the gun has been creeping left, another indication that I didn't put together.
I have measured the bore, it is .357 on the big side and I forget what it is where the grooves run. I've since been sizing the rounds to .357 to reduce friction. But I'm going to slug it again now that it is clean and the barrel is out to make it easy. There should not be a choke but I'll check when slugging it, one oversized round part way up and back, another oversized round all the way through the muzzle.
And thanks to subscriber for the info. I was thinking about filling the lube groove with some JB and shooting a few, but want to put some rounds through it to see what happens. I'll probably assemble it and shoot into my trap and see what the speed is right now, if I'm back then I think I have my answer. Currently at 4.5 turns out on the spring which I think is where it started. Might need to go in one full turn.
And as far as deriding the borescope, they can be very useful. You can do things like check transfer port alignment and potentially correct this by adjusting the barrel. That one use will have made it worth the cost to me, you can see this thread:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=188023.0
Once the Bulldog is back in service, the Empire X will be getting work, hoping I can simply move the barrel a little and line up the port. If not then I'll want to bevel the edges to smooth out the air, wanted a small amount of power increase from this rifle anyway and cleaning up the airflow might do everything I want. The borescope cost less than 50 rounds of the Benjamin Nosler 145gr bullets, one more tool to monitor the health of your airguns.
«
Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:41:17 AM by Greg_E
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #11 on:
June 08, 2021, 10:53:35 AM »
I might have been a little hard on the bore scope, for a spot of humor. A better analogy might have been, "if all you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail". "If you have a bore scope, then every bore looks dirty". If you have a toolbox full of different tools, a bore scope might be exactly what you need.
Based on the history, I would have suggested that the breech O-ring or TP seal got blown out of position by the unlocked breech dry fire. Removing the barrel (as you have) and reassembling everything correctly should undo any seal problem, independently of what might be a barrel with some pitting near the muzzle that strips lead off projectiles.
It is a good idea to check the velocity after reassembly, before fire lapping (and again after). Else, any velocity increase may be attributed to a smoother bore, rather than the correctly positioned seals doing their job as designed.
If the velocity loss remains, you might check to see if the bolt is straight. I am not familiar with the Bulldog's bolt, and if it can be slammed open by a closed but unlocked bolt discharge. If so, the bolt might be slightly bent; stressing the breech seal enough to make it leak a little. I admit that this is pure speculation, based on conjecture.
You might also check the hammer spring to see if it is short, or otherwise distorted; in a way you did not see before. You may need a new spring to compare it with...
«
Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 11:04:59 AM by subscriber
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K.O.
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #12 on:
June 08, 2021, 11:13:52 AM »
Me personally I think 300 grit may be a bit coarser than needed... these are not hard barrels like PB barrels... I think about 600 grit would be good... I believe in being conservative and If necessary then go more aggressive...
Even toothpaste can work for fire lapping(the kinds with diatomaceous earth or Hydrated silica)...have also used auto rubbing compound..
me I am probably just paranoid but I tend to stay away from carbide valve lapping compound for fire lapping...
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #13 on:
June 08, 2021, 11:28:45 AM »
JB Compound should work well for fire lapping. The GTA site owner fire laps with the finer of the two automotive valve lapping compounds as a starting point. That 360 grit does seem a little rough. Especially in a smaller caliber with shallow rifling...
Are you concerned about abrasive imbedding in the bore? Not sure that would happen with silicon carbide, nor that it would matter. Whatever grit manages to imbed can be ripped out by means of JB Compound fire lapping used to finish the job.
I agree that starting fine and ramping up the aggressiveness of the abrasive grit, if indicated, is the way to go. You can't put metal back. As long as you ramp the grit size back down to "fine", as a final finish.
Here is a very wide range of grits for not much money:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XCKNCKZ
I have used this diamond lapping compound to lap a muzzle crown with a round head brass screw. Don't see why using it to fire lap would be a bad idea - unless it somehow ends up in the breech mechanism where it does not belong.
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Greg_E
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #14 on:
June 08, 2021, 12:27:06 PM »
I don't think the bolt is bent, but really hard to tell without digger much deeper, thought of this immediately. The bolt was wide open when it got triggered, so it slammed shut. The original breach o ring looked OK, but you have to mangle it a little to get it out. I have a bag of those rings from Pitbull which are supposed to be "upgraded", to me they are just tighter and maybe a little too tight. A cheap part that gets replaced as soon as you suspect it might be a problem.
I looked in the parts diagram and didn't see a transfer port seal, I also don't see one in the receiver. I went looking because I thought I might have dropped it when taking it apart but it looks like it seals from friction??? I may put a little Hylomar around it, this stuff stays flexible and should (maybe) handle the high pressure. Alternate would be find or make a delrin seal, need to watch the Pitbull porting video again to see what I'm dealing with before I assemble it.
The other odd thing was that when the speeds slowed down, I didn't feel any air against my face. And with a bullpup the air is right there.
I don't have a measurement on the stock hammer spring, I may order one just to have a spare. When I opened that area I expected to see a broken spring, but it all looks OK. I may look into an SSG mod too, seems like that might be a better option. or I'll increase pressure with a Pitbull tube and spring to raise the power. Not sure I need more power so this might be a remote possibility. For now I'll probably just crank the spring up to hit where I was before, don't want single shot 300fpe rifle right now or I would buy something in the 45 to 50 cal range.
I do want to clean up the forward edge of the transfer port, it looks like I got a little lead shaving from the lighter/shorter rounds and this may have clogged the TP. These came from the NOE 359-88-RF-S2 mold and the lube rings are pretty thin and could probably fall into the TP a little to be shaved off. Might have to order some tools to chamfer that edge because I don't think I can get it with a file. Some small ball cutters or diamond ball shaped cutters are probably what I'll need.
Besides the NOE mold, I was testing Lyman 356637 hollow point (125grain). An I was testing bare lead (20:1) compared to powder coat to see if there were any seed differences that were big enough to claim a real difference. Of note is that none of the patches showed the color of the PC so I'll have to check the reclaimed rounds to see if lead was embossed onto the powder coat.
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100acres
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #15 on:
June 08, 2021, 04:57:58 PM »
I use Chore Boy and Hoppies to get the biggest part of the lead out. I then go to Hoppies and a bronze brush that rotates to follow the rifling to finish. I also have a bore scope to verify the lead is removed. This works for me but some folks don't like the idea of a bronze brush on their rifling.
I use my bore scope to locate the lead prone areas and go after them with JB bore cleaner after I remove the lead. My FX Crown had a problem leading in the choke area. The JB bore cleaner solved the problem.
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #16 on:
June 08, 2021, 05:11:10 PM »
I don't clean my barrels unless POI changes. Then I clean the barrels before looking for other causes.
YMMV
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Greg_E
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #17 on:
June 08, 2021, 06:43:01 PM »
The Chore Boy didn't do much for me, but it was cheap. I think the combo of the Hoppes and the bronze brush were the best. But if you read the label on the Hoppes, you'll see some warnings about corrosion, etc. I have a feeling it forms compounds similar to vinegar and peroxide so needs to be used sparely with Ballistol clean up afterwords.
I'm certain I'm going to be into it for polish work after a few rounds, at least I'll know where to look and can mark the outside of the barrel the next time. I wish my borescope had a stripe along the length so you can see where you've turned it. I'll have to try something that can permanently mark the plastic sheath.
I really hope my poi comes back to center, then I'm only dealing with elevation, which is bad enough because it seems they didn't build any angle into the rail like many other manufacturers do. My Kral has an adjustable rail built in.
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #18 on:
June 08, 2021, 09:08:20 PM »
Mike Mellick at Flying Dragon showed me a process that I still use.
Run fishing line from breech to muzzle but leave it on the spool. Loop a q tip soaked in Goo Gone and pull it through then tie another and repeat another and another. Then repeat that process using Soft Scrub stove top cleaner (without bleach). Next would be alcohol to clean up the mess and finally clean patches until they come out clean. Then a quick single run of WD40. Then snip the fishing line off and toss that "stinger" of garbage away. I tend to trust Mike Mellick's experience.
Albeit, q tips would be loose in a .30. Maybe a wad of patches would be better.
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Re: Cleaning lead fouling?
«
Reply #19 on:
June 08, 2021, 10:05:04 PM »
Greg,
The only parts diagram I can easily find for your Bulldog is not very detailed:
https://www.pyramydair.com/model-schematic/m/benjamin-bulldog-357-bullpup-shrouded/3592
I am sure that you can find (and have) disassembly and tuning videos as well as I can. That said, these might help understand the TP to barrel sealing arrangement better:
30 minutes in shows a rather crude TP arrangement:
I am sure there are better videos, but it confirms the lack of apparent TP seals. I would think that a slightly long Delrin tube that is a slight crush fit between barrel and valve would be indicated. This assumes both barrel and valve have proper sealing shoulders for the TP to bear against. The barrel and valve could have semi-circular TP seat, although that would seem unusual.
As for sealing a soft material against 3000 PSI, O-rings do it, due to the support they get from adjacent parts, and due to the limited area exposed to seal extrusion. So, the soft material you proposed could work, depending on how you use it.
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